BS: the truth will out

Subject: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 09:13 AM

Have you seen the CNN report on voter fraud in Florida? It came out yesterday. Better brace yourself Doug, MAV, Uncle Jaque

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 09:23 AM

Report: Florida 'grossly derelict' in 2000 vote June 5, 2001 Posted: 2:35 PM EDT (1835 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Florida officials at all levels were responsible for widespread disenfranchisement of the state's minority voters in the 2000 presidential election, according to a report drafted by the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights.

The commission says the officials were "grossly derelict" in conducting the election.

Florida's election process came under scrutiny in November 2000 after GOP candidate George W. Bush garnered just a few hundred more votes on Election Day than his Democratic opponent, Vice President Al Gore, to win the state's crucial electoral votes.

Despite losing the national popular vote to Gore, Bush won the presidency after a U.S. Supreme Court ruling that capped a contentious five weeks of legal battles and recounts.

The commission's report, which will officially be released on Friday, did not find evidence of a conspiracy among Florida officials.

Florida Gov. Jeb Bush and Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris, both Republicans, are singled out in particular for ignoring "mounting evidence" of problems with outdated voting technology in a number of counties, and for ignoring requests for guidance and assistance from local elections officials.

The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights describes itself as an "independent, bipartisan agency" directed by the White House to -- among other duties -- investigate complaints that citizens have been unfairly deprived of their right to vote.

The commission's report, and its early leak to news organizations before the official release date, has angered members of the commission who were appointed by Republicans, who say they were not consulted.

Commission member Russell Redenbaugh, a GOP appointee who identifies himself as a political independent, said the evidence contained in the report fails to support the report's conclusions. Redenbaugh said commission Chairwoman Mary Frances Berry -- an independent and a Gore supporter -- leaked the report to further her personal political agenda.

The eight-member commission -- half appointed by Congress and half by the president -- is made up of three independents, four Democrats and a Republican, according to its Website.

The report also finds that the state's African-American voters were most affected by the voting problems last year. For example, the commission cites statistics showing that predominantly African-American voting precincts were more likely to use older voting systems with higher error rates than more affluent, predominantly white voting districts. As a result, the report concludes, African-American voters were 10 times more likely than white voters to have their ballots rejected.

In addition, the report alleges that an "overzealous" statewide campaign to reduce voter fraud resulted in disproportionately denying eligible African-American voters from casting ballots on Election Day. African-Americans were more likely to have been erroneously removed from voter registration rolls than Hispanic or white voters, the commission says.

The report also criticizes local election supervisors in counties hardest hit by voting problems, saying they showed a "lack of leadership" in protecting voting rights. These officials failed to adequately prepare for the election, according to the report, and "simply permitted the unequal distribution of quality voting equipment ... without the public being aware that an electoral disaster might be approaching."

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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 09:25 AM

The truth is an awful slippery little critter, though. It's hard to capture on a piece of paper; or on a thousand pieces of paper. Sometime I think we're better off letting it go and moving on.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 09:40 AM

Never could understand people who act like ostriches. I want to know the truth, it's the only thing I can deal with.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 09:43 AM

Don't go into politics, kendall!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Caitrin
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 10:08 AM

You know, there's a great song by the Arrogant Worms..."Don't go into politics, you'll end up dead."

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 10:11 AM

So can we impeach both of them and get them out? Then, would Gore be in? Seems a shame to let the usurper continue.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 10:12 AM

Hey, we've had a counter-coup, at least!

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 10:16 AM

Reminds me of 1974. Nixon was doing a big public appearance somewhere, and the MC says to him "Shall I say the magic word, Mr. President?"...and in the half-second before Dick gets a chance to reply, someone in the crowd yells out loud and clear... "Impeachment!"

Boy, what a classic moment that was...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Matt_R
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 10:18 AM

The Good Will Out, great album by Embrace. All you good good people, come back to what you know.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: UB Ed
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 10:19 AM

Kendall, I've read your article three times. Exactly what "truth" are you talking about here?

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: LR Mole
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 10:36 AM

"Truth's a dog must to kennel", says Lear.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 10:41 AM

"My cat's name is mittens" - Ralph Wiggums

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 10:46 AM

Kendall – I love discussing politics. The only time I stick my head in the sand is to find out what's buried there. I try hard to understand the facts surrounding events so that I can developed an informed opinion about what may have happened. But I would not even pretend to know "the Truth" regarding most things.

On Nightline last night, the chairman of the committee (who was accused of leaking the report) faced off against the one Republican committee member. Needless to say, "the Truth" chose not to attend. It was all posturing and politics, as both sides tried to defend or tear down a report which has not officially been released yet or voted on by committee members. Essentially, what they're all hissing about is a DRAFT of the report.

In my opinion, there is little reason to leak a controversial document other than to discredit it in advance. After all, leaking a document like is perceived as a political move and always results in skepticism about the credibility of the contents. But, of course, that's just my opinion.

My concern is that by arguing about the truth of what happened in this case in Florida, we will be distracted from fixing the system, which is a much larger issue. It's like generals getting ready to fight the last war; there are better ways to spend our time.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,AMos
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 11:48 AM

Sometimes it pays to realize that the truth outs in mysterious ways. For example:

Police Seek Unapologetic Flatulent Officer

LONDON (Reuters) - British police sought a flatulent officer Wednesday after a family complained that a policeman broke wind in their London home during a drug raid and failed to apologize.

A Scotland Yard spokesman confirmed that the Department of Professional Standards was investigating a charge that an officer broke wind in the complainants' hallway but did not apologize to the homeowners.

"We can confirm that the department is investigating an incivility charge during the search of a home under the Misuse of Drugs act," the police spokesman told Reuters.

The Daily Mail newspaper Wednesday printed a letter from Scotland Yard to the officers involved in the drugs raid informing them of the complaint.

"An allegation has been received from a person in the house that one of the male officers broke wind and did not apologize to the family for his action...the complainant felt it was rude and unprofessional," the letter stated.

Police did not confirm what discipline the officer might receive if found guilty of breaking wind.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 11:52 AM

Matt, I've seen all good people turn there heads each day; so satisfied, I'm on my way.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 11:53 AM

Amos, "Two minds with but a single thought!"
RtS (see my thread BS gas...)

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: BobP
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 11:58 AM

"You want truth, you can't handle the truth", thus sayeth the attorneys and judges on all sides last fall.

Here are a few "truths" as told to us by "guess who"!
- The state's voting machinery has been overhauled.(br> - Officials of both parties have promised a smooth process next time.
- Statewide elections are just 18 months off.
- One more "election by lawyers" & the system is dead.
- Floridians have ample time to study the "atrocity".
- The stage is set for a people's showdown.
- Florida voters will, at last, demonstrate their will.

Last chance for the elective process?

Reverberations of "Go vote, it's your civic duty" will fade slowly into the mists of time.

Assuming the idealogical split in that unfortunate state remains about even, whatever tilt comes from the next election will be the people's expression in response to last fall's "atrocity", says me.

Will the people abide and accept the results or will attorneys from whichever side comes up short, spin us around and explain the voter's "intent"?

Will ABC's early exit polls cause those heading out to vote to give up and go home thinking their cause is lost?

If the results from statewide office races show up squeaky close, will the loser demand a recount?

When that moment occurs, you'll have your truth.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Matt_R
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 12:03 PM

Alex, you've been hanging with the Starship Troopers again, haven't you?

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 12:06 PM

Matt! Though you've seen them, please don't tell a soul.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 12:11 PM

Anybody who doesn't vote because of what they hear on the news deserves to have their candidate lose.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Matt_R
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 12:18 PM

I'd be telling anyone Alex, I've got the clap.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Peg
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 12:34 PM

A friend of mine said something very provocative the other night. He had not registered to vote in about eight years, prior to last year, and he got sick of a mutual friend of ours saying "If you don't vote you have no right to complain, etc."

But then, when he registered and voted last year, he said he realized his vote doesn't actually mean anything, (since the candidate who actually "won" the election, lost the election when it was hijacked by the Supreme Court and the Florida Legislature (okay not in that order).

I said that on some level it proved his vote DID mean something, since if more people had voted, the outcome may have been very different...

We will never know. I now fear other voters and non-voters will reach the same conclusion; what damn difference does it make if I vote or not?

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: SDShad
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 12:34 PM

Well, all I have to say is this: move me on to any black square, use me any time you want.

Oh, what was the real topic? Florida? African-Americans having trouble voting in Florida? I'm shocked, and stunned, truly.......**...phhhh....***snicker****

Sorry, couldn't keep a straight face.

Shad

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 12:53 PM

Think, if just 3000 more left-leaning Floridians had voted, Jeb and the Supremes would have had to work just that much harder to overturn the election and get Dubya into the Oval Office. At some point they would have reached a breaking point, and been unable to fake it, and the man who won the election would have become President.

Every vote counts!

And Shad, all I have to say is, just remember that the goal is for us all to capture only ONE.

And Matt: Don't surround yourself with yourself. Move on back two squares.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Matt_R
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 01:09 PM

You and Leej--a congregation of politic wurms!

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 02:08 PM

Did we really count to 100?

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 04:11 PM

I'm skeptical. If voting is supposed to be anonymous then how can they know whose votes weren't counted?

Of course every vote counts. Just because you vote, though, that doesn't mean your guy is going to win. I vote Libertarian. My guy never wins. But my vote counts.

Now let's fix the goofy system. How big of an undertaking would it be to have a standardized voting system that was the same in every state?

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 04:29 PM

It's not really sensible to hand the whole ball of wax to either guy when they each only got about 50% of the vote. Yes, I realize that's how the system works...or is supposed to at any rate...but I think it's a very bad system. It arbitrarily denies the will of approximately half the people at any given time. That happens because the people were arbitrarily divided into 2 opposed camps in the first place and then asked to choose between them.

Hell of a stupid way to run a society.

You could form a government without parties at all, and save yourselves this misery. Said government would function as a council that met in a CIRCLE of equal partners, not as a house divided into two opposing halves.

It's been done, you know. It is possible.

Ah, but what the hell...who am I to mess with your political war? Go get those rotten Redemopratublicans!!!

Destroy the b*st*rds, I say! :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: UB Ed
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 04:31 PM

Kim, I agree. Kendall is apparently surprised that the FLA voting folks were incompetent and seems to feel this leads to a conspiracy theory. In 2001, we certainly should be able to accurately count votes.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 05:22 PM

I don't know that the people are incompetent as much as the system they use. But haven't they been voting that way for years? And now all of a sudden there's a problem?

I dunno. I'm going to sit back and watch and see what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 06:41 PM

Read the article. It will save me explaining what it said. Ok, the upshot is, too many African-Americans were screwed out of their right to vote.(Shades of the 60's) Why? could it be that they tend to vote for democrats?

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 06:56 PM

Sorry...that was supposed to be "Redemocrapublicants". A mastodon's head at one end, and a horse's ass at the other...

The poor things are extinct in Canada, but we have equally strange beasts of several varieties here, so all is not lost, I suppose.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Matt_R
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 09:56 PM

Alex, to answer your question, I'd say "Yes".

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 10:34 AM

The word "competency" just jumps out at me whenever I see it in a discussion on voting. The competency involved should be related to choosing the best candidate - judging character and evaluating arguments and positions - not to the ability to figure out some arcane ballot or voting machinery, or how to keep from being purged from the voting roles.

The question that will not be answered in any of the inquiries into the last election is whether or not people in a position to do so took actions that made it more difficult for specific population groups to register their choice for president.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: UB Ed
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 10:55 AM

Kendall, the article says "more likely" and "did not find evidence of a conspiracy among Florida officials".

That's all it says.

Reference Bart's post above regarding politically posturing and muck swimming. This is all about spin doctors and self-serving politicians.

The fact is neither you nor I nor anyone else "Knows" what happened there. What you're expressing is your opinion. An opinion that does not have access to all the facts. And you somehow extrapolate that to the truth?

Somebody leaked the report for a reason and you seem to be the target audience. Why allow yourself and opinions to be manipulated like that?

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 12:54 PM

What it says and what it implies are not the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 01:14 PM

imply and infer are not the same thing...nor are fact and supposition

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: UB Ed
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 03:35 PM

Kendall, my friend, that is exactly my point. Implications are simply that. Such an article allows folks to form there own conclusions. But to depict these self developed conlusions as truth is not responsible.

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 05:34 PM

What about the people who testified that they had been intimidated at the polls and left? What about the fact that the junk machines were mostly in poor black areas? Is that supposition? Voter fraud is not new, a friend of mine was overseas at election time years ago, and he told me that when their absentee ballots arrived, they were all glued together making them useless. And, this time around, the republicans spent 60 million dollars to influence the service people overseas. How many ballots were delivered without postage dates? they were counted. Split all the hairs you want, the republicans stole it, and, the democrats have already started to take it back. RE ELECT GORE IN 2004!

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 09:37 PM

I'm tired of this pointless picking. I'm outta here.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 08:53 AM

Kendall says "What about the people who testified that they had been intimidated at the polls and left? What about the fact that the junk machines were mostly in poor black areas? Is that supposition?"

I don't know if its supposition or not...if you had posted a news article or report that stated that this happened than I would have supported your intent. I don't even totally disagree with the point you are trying to get across...what I was trying to point out was that instead of posting any of these facts or reports, you posted an article about a report that might be released and may or may not be substantiated :
"The commission's report, which will officially be released on Friday, did not find evidence of a conspiracy among Florida officials"

"Commission member Russell Redenbaugh, a GOP appointee who identifies himself as a political independent, said the evidence contained in the report fails to support the report's conclusions. Redenbaugh said commission Chairwoman Mary Frances Berry -- an independent and a Gore supporter -- leaked the report to further her personal political agenda. "

And to state that what a news story says and what it implies is silly...a news story is supposed to say what it means, that's the difference between news and creative writing, and if the writer is not doing that than they are a bad news reporter.

If you don't like Bush and just want to say so, I have no problem with that...but you can't post a news article about a draft report that denies any conspiracy but makes claims that may or may not be supported by the facts and say "THE TRUTH WILL OUT". Especially since I heard from this friend of mine that his brother's teacher's sister heard about a guy who said the exact opposite.... :)

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: BobP
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 11:05 AM

I wonder if perhaps there's one point on which almost all would agree.

- Whether the repub lawyers made their case before the supreme court or not,

- Whether the court was justified to step in or not,

- Whether the chaos created by the Florida courts deserved federal intervention or not,

Involving the federal judiciary in that state's election process was a terrible, terrible idea!

Might it have been better to allow the ugliness to play itself out, even if it interfered with electoral timing?

Even if Gore won by judicial acclaimation and took office in June?

Once upon a time popular referendum had nothing to do with the selection of presidential electors.

Did the medicine cause more harm than good?

Would the patient have been better off had the disease been allowed to run its course no matter how ugly?

Should last fall's threat to democracy should have been met with "faith in the process" that the patient would eventually get back to health?

You may not understand that, but I'm sure Jefferson would!

Interfering was politically expedient, but left a tumor behind, says me.

Democracy has a way of righting itself naturally, said Jefferson or Madison (maybe both)

I don't think Americans have lost their sense of fair play; but I do think that of the lawyers and judges.

We learned a terrible lesson about goin to war without considering the long term consequences and vowed to let no further "Viet Nams" occur.

Could we not say that we've just learned a corollary lesson? This time is was judicial power, instead of military power, that corrupted the natural process.

Do you think it preposterous that one day Viet Nam may have free and open elections, while down in florida a politbureau of judges and lawyers have seized control?

Too far fetched?

Probably!

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: DougR
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 02:15 PM

GuestUB Dan, don't try to confuse Kendall and my other liberal friends with facts.

Bart, I think there was ONLY one reason for leaking the report to the press before even the one Republican on the Commission had an opportunity to read it: politics.

The commission's chairman would not even release an advance copy of the report to the Governor of Florida (who had requested it). Somehow, it made it's way to the press though, didn't it?

If a commission such as this one wants to be taken seriously, it must, I believe, be truly bi-partisan. This one certainly is not.

UB Dan reported the most meaningful statement in the report: "The commission found no evidence of conspiracy by Florida officials."

Bush won, Kendall. Get over it, and work to get YOUR man elected NEXT time (if you can). :>)

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Peg
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 02:55 PM

Why do these discussions always devolve into one guy's pathetic attempt to pick apart someone else's opinions with petty snivelling pedantics?

Just wonderin' :)

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: UB Ed
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 03:38 PM

Ah c'mon Peg, I don't think that's it. You know the old adage, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. There is very little objectivity in the media; that's why a careful read is important.

By the way, whats the deal on your housing?

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 03:51 PM

It's not pedantics Peg. You might as well ask, why do these arguments always devolve into somebody trying to impose logic on the discussion. A discussion is a sharing of ideas if its just all of us hooraying with each other over slogans and quips, it would be called a pep rally. Also, I am not picking apart Kendall's opinion...I was pointing out that although I respect his opinion, the article he chose to post neither supported nor refuted his opinion...in fact it is totally irrelevant to any opinion since it doesn't really say anything.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 04:46 PM

If my memory serves me, a buddy of mine banged Berry's son for five years mandatory for crack at the start of Clinton's date-rape of the American people. If she is the same one, she tried to to use the buggaloo squad in DC to sidetrack the warrant, but it was a Viginia case and he got all five years. I sure one of you folks with all the time and search engines could pull up the case.

And in reference to the road blocks set up by Miami police; the Miami papers reported it was a seatbelt check, and the conkheads that claimed they had been harrased by the PO-lice forgot that the radio traffic of all officers stopping cars that day was taped and archived. When the FBI investigated, they found that most of the lying fools had been never stopped (all tags on vehicles that were stopped were radio'd in) and those that were, were released within minutes in locations that had no relevence to the voting poll locations where these people were supposed to vote. Those that showed up at the proper polls voted within 15 minutes of entry at the busiest time. And the diddyboopers that were videoed at the Commission meeting screaming about being intimidated by what turned out to be a 72 year old jewish female poll worker?

Even the black democrats on the Civil Rights Commission weren't dumb enough to call it a "Right-wing conspiracy," but obviously some liberals are...

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 04:52 PM

(all tags on vehicles that were stopped were radio'd in)

If you believe that, I have some swampland in Florida I'd like to interest you in.....

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 06:15 PM

Alex, I don't have to believe it, I KNOW IT. As a a cop for 18 years, I can tell you that an officer ALWAYS radio's the tags of the car he is stopping, and if the radio is too busy, and something pops in front of him, he scribbels the tag number on his palm as he gets out. More than one case of an officer shot dead, has been solved by checking his hands for tag numbers.

Furthermore, it is common in many jurisdictions, that if the officer does not mark back in within three minutes, saying in effect, "Everythings 10-4, I'll be checking tags, issuing warning, giving directions, etc." you send backup immediately. As a Shift Commander, I have reamed young officers who forgot this, and suddenly saw several cruisers roaring to their "rescue", only to discover he was "giving directions" to the mythical Suzie Rottencrotch, and had forgotten to "mark in".

Those whose political agenda included using mythical intimidation for their laziness in voting, forgot that police departments are closing the loopholes on those who would lie to Commisions as well as to those officers who would lie to their superiors.

I worked internal affairs for three years, and I have a small prediction to make. As departments use video and computer surviellence (with GPS) on their officers activities, the same number of minorities will be stopped as are now alleged in "racial profiling", only this time their violations, and subsequent behavior will be on tape.

When 12 percent of the population commits close to 50 percent of all crime (with various percentages within each specific crime classification, such as less white collar and fraud, and more assualts, murders and rapes), you will still find those percentages on the street.

Make no mistake, there are bad officers and bad supervisors, but did you ever wonder at the rate for bad attorneys or bad doctors? And only one group must submit to extensive background checks and lie detectors to get their job (and occasionally to keep them).

Miami is a minority run department, and to doctor the tapes, which would be easily caught by the FBI crime lab, in a city where most officers are union-democrats, would be a fantasy that only a liberal could support.

As for the swamp land in Florida, considering the intelligence of the voters, I'll pass thank you...

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 07:48 PM

I dont remember saying there was a conspiracy. It is my firm belief that Bush stole the election, and I dont have to offer any proof as long as it is my opinion. I'll bet there are more mudcatters here who think as I do than who think as you do UB Dan. Claymore, that "Suzie Rottencrotch" remark does nothing to inspire respect for your profession.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 08:00 PM

Friday today, can anyone please post what the report says in full?

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 10:28 PM

Why bother Jon? we all create our own reality anyway. Whatever it says, some will cheer, some will boo.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: DougR
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 10:40 PM

Jon: I'm not sure the complete report is available. Just news stories based on the leaked report to news sources. It's available, probably, in every newspaper in the U. S. today. If I had a scanner, I'd scan the story but alas, I don't.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 12:18 AM

Well, I posted this awhile back and I think it fits here quite well......................from "The Rape of the A.P.E." by the late and great Allen Sherman:

*******WHY LIES ARE BETTER THAN THE TRUTH*******(A Scientific Comparison)

I. CREDIBILITY: All lies are designed to seem true. The expert liar carefully uses elements that seem probable and logical and therefore easy to believe. On the other hand, The Truth is often illogical, wildly improbable and hard to explain. Summary: Lies are more believable than the truth.

II. RELIABILITY: The Truth is spontaneous, accidental and unpredictable. Lies however can be planned in detail long in advance and are thus guaranteed to turn out just as predicted. Summary: Lies are more dependable than The Truth.

III. ECONOMY: To be The Truth, an account of a given event must be completely accurate. This requires painstaking resourcefulness, expensive research, time consuming attention to detail, complex logistics and thoroughness. In spite of all that, some people will believe it and others will not. A lie will produce the same results without all the fuss and bother. Summary: Lies are simpler than The Truth; Lies cost less than Truth in time, money, and effort.

IV. VALUE: The Truth can be found anywhere; it belongs to anyone who finds it, absolutely free. Lies are custom-made, often by experts, and the best ones are highly polished works of art. Summary: Lies are worth more money than Truth. Have you ever heard of anybody bribing a witness to tell The Truth?

V. RESPECTABILITY: A) Great fortunes have been made by selling Lies to the public. The people who sell these lies are often grateful to the gullible consumers, so they endow libraries and universities and cultural centers. B) Nobody ever made a fortune selling The Truth. First of all, as already stated, The Truth is free. The only people who will pay money for The Truth are people who are being blackmailed--and they are only buying The Truth so they can hide it before anybody else sees it. Summary: Lies lead to libraries and universities, while The Truth leads to blackmail.

VI. STABILITY: A) Take 1000 parts Truth, add 1 part Lie. Result: A Lie. B) Take 1000 parts Lie, add 1 part Truth. Result: Again, a Lie. C) Note that you can make a Lie out of The Truth, but you can't make The Truth out of a Lie. Summary: Lies are stronger and last longer than The Truth.

VII. IMAGINATION: In reporting The Truth, a person must research the precise facts and stick to them exactly as they occurred. The liar can report the same incident without doing any research, merely saying whatever comes to his mind and filling in "details" according to his fancy. Summary: Lies are more creative than The Truth.

VIII. RECOGNIZABILITY: People are accustomed to hearing lies all the time. Summary: If you tell The Truth, people will think you are lying and if you convince them you are telling The Truth, they will become suspicious. (Why is he suddenly telling The Truth? What's going on?)

IX. SUPPLY & DEMAND: In describing any given incident, only one version can be The Truth, whereas the number of Lies possible is unlimited. Obviously, Lies are in far greater supply than The Truth. Frankly, there is a great demand for Lies, if they are flattering, if they build up one's hopes, if they help one escape reality, or if they promise wealth, health, power, or potency. Nobody is very anxious to hear The Truth. The only people who demand The Truth are those who are investigating something (lawyers, etc.)--and they only want The Truth to prove somebody is lying. Summary: Lies are the acceptable medium of exchange in our society. They are in good supply and the demand for them remains strong. The Truth is in extremely short supply and even this tiny supply far exceeds the demand. Thus in our society, The Truth occupies a position identical to that of dinosaur shit.

CONCLUSION: Lies are superior to The Truth in numerous ways. Lies are ingenious; Lies make the world seem more pleasant; Lies are less embarrassing than Truth and less frightening. Furthermore, in fields such as diplomacy, statesmanship, merchandising, advertising, public realtions, and bookkeeping, The Truth is an out-and-out handicap. In friendship, Truth is harmful; in love, it is disastrous. The Truth is that The Truth has become old fashioned. Its full of odd shaped little nooks and crannies like so many old fashioned things; some people find them fascinating, but most people find them a pain in the neck. To find all the joys that go along with handling of and handing on The Truth is a labor of love, but most of us in today's society have no time for such things.

************************************************ ********

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 12:32 AM

I'm still baffled that Matt referred to me and MT as a "congregation of politic wurms". Is it a line from some ELO song? Yes?

PS : Caesar's Palace, Morning Glory, Silly Human Race?

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Matt_R
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 03:29 PM

OK...here's the train of thought, lol...

You and Alex were talking about politics.
There is a Yes song called "Wurm".
So I combined them into the quote from Hamlet: "a certain congregation of politic worms are e'en at him".

There y'are!

--Matt

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 03:54 PM

Matt the Obscure.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 06:04 PM

I got the Yes connection, just not the Hamlet connection.

alex

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: wdyat12
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 06:42 PM

The Truth is the Truth. Lies are Lies.

It can't happen here?

wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 07:41 PM

Yeah wdyat, but lies are better.......I've given you scientific documentation!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From:
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 08:12 PM

Having spent the last few weeks involved in the UK General Election, as a Party Hack (trans Ward Heeler) I can happlly say at least the organization and Conduct by the Officials is fair.

Just remember what Uncle Joe was reputed to say - " It's not the Vote that counts, it's who counts the Votes ".

Whilst the conduct and method of US of A elections is a matter for the US of A, on the basis of what was reported in the UK press I fear WW Bush's election has no credebility, or legitimacy in my eyes. And the trouble is he is our president too !

Forward to the United Counties of Europe !

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 05:22 AM

"An allegation has been received from a person in the house that one of the male officers broke wind and did not apologize to the family for his action...the complainant felt it was rude and unprofessional,"

And the sniffer dog wasn't too happy either!!!

Just a little humour in this terribly depressing thread. As I was told when Maggie got in - If you voted, fight it, if you DIDN'T vote LIVE WITH IT!

lts

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 09:09 AM

Kendall says: "I dont remember saying there was a conspiracy. It is my firm belief that Bush stole the election, and I dont have to offer any proof as long as it is my opinion. I'll bet there are more mudcatters here who think as I do than who think as you do UB Dan"

Kendall...as I said before you are entitled to your opinions on Bush. You can dislike Bush, I really don't care. Saying Bush stole the election is not, however, an opinion...it is an assertion of fact. You should either have some bases for this assertion or give up the assertion. You also say that you never said there was a conspiracy, but you still say Bush stole the election? I guess Bush didn't conspire with anyone, he single-handedly stopped voters on the way to the polls in Florida and made voting machines defunct, etc...or does the word "stole" mean something else? I don't care how many people agree or disagree with either of us. Reality is not a popularity contest. If you re-read my posts, you'll see that I don't disagree with your dislike of Bush, I disagree with you unfocused illogical arguments to support a reality you made for yourself. As you once said "Never could understand people who act like ostriches. I want to know the truth, it's the only thing I can deal with."

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 11:48 AM

We all create our own reality sir. Even you.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 12:15 PM

"My opinion" means "what I think is true."

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: DougR
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 12:36 PM

Possibly, Alex, but if facts are available, wouldn't one think that one's opinion would be based on those facts? Example: were I to say, "in my opinion, the South won the Civil War my judgement might be questioned because the facts do not support the argument (opinion). **BG**

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 12:45 PM

"Freedom is the ability to say that 2+2=4" -George Orwell

If we create our own realities and truth and opinion are the same thing...then how come I can't make you logical just by thinking that you should be. Truth is not opinion...and conversely opinion is not truth. Sometimes they coincide, and generally people at least go through the motions of trying to justify one with the other.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 12:45 PM

Refusing to examine one's opinion and compare it to known facts is a course of action which lacks that ephemeral quality known as "intellectual honesty."

IMHO.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 12:49 PM

UB dan, you missed the point. It's what I THINK is true. Not what IS true, but what I THINK is true. The key word here is THINK.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 01:23 PM

Alex I agree with your post about intellectual honesty...but maybe we need another word for what you keep calling opinion. I get hung up because I think of an opinion as something like "I like the color blue". I am entitled to this opinion and you cannot argue this point with me. There is not much frther discussion to be had. So if you said "I don't like Bush" I would agree that that is your opinion and you are entitled to it...amazingly, I may even agree. But when you say "The color blue cures cancer" I'd ask you for some proof...I guess this is also an opinion, but it is also a supposition. This statement requires some defense or explanation...and it should be related to the supposition. Otherwise, we should defend white supremecists or ant-semites as simply having an opinion and its okay because they believe it to be true. Or what about Son of Sam...if he believed the dog needed those people dead then is it okay.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 02:34 PM

Hey Alex, I was just scanning some of the other threads and came upon the Happy B-Day one...after scanning it briefly, I thought that my comment in the earlier post re: suprememist and anti-semites might be misconstrued. I hadn't read that thread before and didn't realize there was such a heated argument going on. I stand by what I said in that post. but I don't want you to misunderstand my motives for saying it.

just clarifying, UB Dan

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 02:49 PM

Hmmm. To me, "I like the colour blue" isn't an opinion at all, but a statement of fact. The sort of fact it relates I guess I would call a preference -- perhaps there is a better word.

I shall have to go back to the Happy Bday... thread to see what you said.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 02:54 PM

I don't understand what you're not apologizing for, UB Dan. I don't see anything that you've said that requires a non-apology.

Alex (confused)

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 03:15 PM

Alex, I was just trying to be proactive in case there was a misunderstanding. I was worried that you might believe my statement in this thread (i.e. "Otherwise, we should defend white supremecists or ant-semites as simply having an opinion and its okay because they believe it to be true. ") would be taken as an allusion to the other thread...
I did not, however post anything to the B-day thread...I just didn't want it to creep into this discussion.

Now back to the discussion...you're right, "I like the color blue" would be a fact, because it would be a statement of my opinion. Perhaps a better analogy would have been "The color blue is nice" vs. "The color blue cures cancer". Do you understand my overall idea of the difference between opinion and supposition or am I explaining it badly. Maybe it is just semantics...but the meaning of words is all we have for communication.

I still admit that I may be missing some logical jump, but what we still seem to have is a news article about a draft report that denies any conspiracy and may or may not indicate an overzealous campaign to reduce voter fraud. This kendall says shows that no one can hide from the truth anymore...then he tells us that what the article says and what it means are two different things...then he tells us that there was widespread voter fraud and Bush stole the election...then he says that he never meant there was a conspiracy...and finally he says we all create our own realities...

Do you understand my confusion? If kendall said "The truth will out....I don't like nor do I trust Bush" I'd say more power to him, its the accusations with unrelated information and then the admonition that he doesn't need facts because we all create our own realities...that's what gets to me

Reality is the state of things as they are, rather than as they are imagined to be.

delusions - A false belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that persists despite the facts, and is not considered tenable by one's associates.

The key here to me is not that people feel like your right...but that the position is tenable..

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 03:37 PM

UB Dan: I copy you on the supremacists thing. I realize you were just citing an example. No need to go there at all.

I see what you're saying about Kendall (sorry Kendall to talk about you in the 3rd person). We do NOT create our own realities. No matter how hard you believe that the Peterbilt semi-tractor-trailer bearing down on you is really a butterfly, you're going to get smashed when it gets there, and you'd better have your will made out ON PAPER and not just in your messed-up head. Reality is external to the human mind, like it or not. No matter what Jonathan Livingston Seagull says about it. (Corollary: never get your metaphysics from an aquatic bird.)

I see what you're saying; "blue is nice" and "blue cures cancer" are two different KINDS of claims. "Being nice" (at least for colours) we call SUBjective, and "curing cancer" we call OBjective.

Of course somebody could make a mistake and think that their opinions on what colour is nice are actually OBjective (little kids do this all the time -- they argue about whose favorite colour is REALLY the best, and other things equally funny-looking to adults).

The converse error, which Kendall seems to be making, is thinking that "Bush stole the election" -- ostensibly a claim like "blue cures cancer" -- is SUBjective and thus not open to refutation and disproof. Which is -- um -- how can I put this nicely? -- hard to agree with.

Are we on the same page, UB Dan?

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 04:08 PM

YES!!! Thanks Alex. I was afraid I was either really missing something or was really not explaining myself well. You said it perfectly. The difference I was looking for was not opinion vs. fact but objective vs. subjective. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Bert
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 07:55 PM

Ah the unreal world of politics.

Fact 1. Something went wrong in the election in Florida.
Fact 2. In the REAL world, if you or I do something wrong, then we get to do it over.

Now just WHAT would have been wrong with saying "We screwed up! let's do it again properly"?

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 08:13 PM

Your example of the Peterbuilt is not a very good example. Anyone who believes that an on coming truck is a butterfly belongs in an institution. Any shrink worth his/her salt will tell you, that in matters of belief, we do create our own reality. My reality tells me that Bush stole the election. Whether or not there was a conspiracy, I dont know, but it is more likely that many people had the same idea at the same time, (do what it takes to get that smirking doofus into the White House) There were problems right here in Portland Maine, people went to vote only to find that they were listed as DEAD! Taken off the rolls! Why was it happening in the poorer section of the city? You want facts? I'll give you a fact, I DONT LIKE BUSH. Now, you nit pickers, argue with that!

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 08:25 PM

Sorry to be so prickly, I just lost a friend, a republican, when she started spouting that old crap about how FDR knew the Japanese were going to bomb Pearl Harbor. She will believe anything about a democrat if it is bad. She's never worked a day in her life or went to bed hungry. Her husband left her well off, so, she has no compassion for the less fortunate. However, the thing that pissed me off most was when she asked what I thought of the saxophone, I told her. "It sounds like a kazoo to me." She comes back with, "You dont know what you are talking about." Her lack of logic is maddening. I'm still steaming, so, Beware of the dog.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: DougR
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 08:38 PM

Hmmm, Kendall, she's a republican ...and rich? Maybe she'd cotton to another Republican out Arizona way! If it means I have to listen to her blow a saxophone, though, forget it.

I will rest easier tonight, though my friend, knowing that you recognize the difference between a truck and a butterfly bearing down on you. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 09:02 PM

Umm, all very interesting. To be awkward, "I like the colour blue" is only a statement of fact if I am telling the truth and it is not a statement of preference - at least I don't think it is without something to be compared to, e.g. "I like the colour blue but green is my favourite colour".

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Matt_R
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 09:17 PM

BULLET WITH BUTTERFLY WINGS

Despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage.

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Peg
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 09:34 PM

*yawn*

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 10:19 PM

I'm glad to see that you have your sense of humor back Doug! I'm sure she would love you!

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: DougR
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 11:43 PM

Does she REALLY like the saxophone, Kendall?

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 07:40 AM

Yes. She plays it daily, and she even belongs to a group, or band, or whatever a bunch of sax nuts belong to! You may be surprised to hear that I have many friends who are republicans. I like them, but, I dont like their politics. However, this lady is a loss, she represents everything I dislike in narrow thinking conservatives, selfish, judgemental, anal and humorless. Doug, my friend, you are not a typical conservative!

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 08:56 AM

Kendall,
Fantastic! I don't disagree with you..you do dislike Bush and you do think something was fishy about the election.

I also really don't care if FDR knew about Pearl Harbor or not...The truth is that he did want to get the US involved in WWII and had a lot of dissention, mostly from isolationist and a bit from people who supported the Nazi agenda. He thought it was morally and politically important to get involved and he was right.

I like the sound of a saxophone - in jazz, big band, swing, rockabilly, and lots of 50's music

I don't think we MAKE our own reality but I think we do have some control over how we deal with it...(We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde)

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: DougR
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 01:01 PM

I don't know about the FDR thing, but I noted at Barnes & Noble yesterday a new book on the subject. The author appeared (according to the information on the book jacket) to be a reputable person, and the source material appered to be legitimate. I forget the title but it was something like, What FDR knew in advance about the Pearl Harbor attack. So evidently some serious inquiry is being made.

Back to the Civil Rights Commission, another columnist wrote in today's newspaper that the preliminary report presented no evidence that faulty or subpar voting equipment was more prevelant in one area over another, and that the commission turned up no evidence of disenfranchisement for anyone. If one were to consider the voters who disqualified themselves because they voted for more than one candidate, etc. as disinfranchisement, maybe so, but that would be stretching the point I believe. The writer, John Leo, of the Universal Press Syndicate quotes Stephen Knack, an economist who studies voting issues says, "Florida is a good example of a national pattern: The largest and richest counties tend to use punch-card equipment. Nationally, (he said) 31.9% of Whites and 31.4% of Blacks live in punch-card counties.

"Testifying before Congress, Knack cited a CalTech-MIT voting study which found that punch-card systems resultin about the same number of invalid ballots as touch-screen electronic systems.

"As the Miami Herald reported last week, experts do not believe that differing voting systems were the source of the difficulty; they think that the underlying problem was the surge in first-time minority voters who did not know how to cast a ballot correctly."

Kendall, I agree, the lady does not sound like my kind of republican.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 01:58 PM

"Fact 2. In the REAL world, if you or I do something wrong, then we get to do it over. "

I want to live in bert's world!

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 02:58 PM

I like how Kendall makes his own reality about the Florida election, but gets pissed off when his friend makes her own reality about FDR and Pearl Harbor.

That's the problem with making your own reality. Much better to deal with the reality that's really there.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: UB Ed
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 03:11 PM

Yeah Alex, maybe Japan should ask for a "do over". C'mon Bert, what's Ernie gotta say about that?

Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 04:47 PM

Be honest MT, you dont like it at all! What's wrong with my believing that there was something fishy about the Florida voting, AND, that FDR would never commit such a crime? I see no inconsistency there at all. Now, if FDR believed that it was morally right to get us into the war, then where was his morality when he turned back a shipload of Jewish refugees? He DID know about the Nazis "Ethnic cleansing".