Metasongs, songs within songs

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 07:22 PM

Jim--Yeah, but it's more fun talking to myself. All good schizophrenics do it. Some day I will remember that FIND is there; I hope I clean up my act before aliens from another thread tell me I don't "respect" my computer because I don't use it right. :)

CC

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 11:16 PM

Chicken Charlie: Don't you have a "find" feature on your web browser?

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Joe_F
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 07:40 PM

"RED NECKS, WHITE SOCKS, AND BLUE RIBBON BEER" mentions "THERE STANDS THE GLASS" (which, being bourgeois to the core, I have never heard).

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,SharonA
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:12 PM

James Taylor's "That's Why I'm Here": "Playin' 'Fire and Rain' again and again and again..."

Tom Lehrer's "Christmas Carol" sings the first line each of 3 carols (Hark the Herald Angels Sing, God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen, Angels We Have Heard on High).

And let's not forget all the rap songs that "borrow" the tunes of other artists (the recent one that uses [abuses] "Angel of the Morning" springs to mind).

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 01:54 PM

Now that this thread is back topside anyway--I just listened to "Wind and Rain" again this a.m. and realized the last verse makes it a metasong. But I don't have the strength to read through 66 posts to see if anybody mentioned that already.

CC

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 01:50 PM

Fiddler's Green is English

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 01:36 PM

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned "CHRISTMAS IN THE TRENCHES" with the various carols mentioned within.

GUEST Tanner, I'm not so sure that "Fiddler's Green" is Irish (although, doubtless I will be corrected in this).

Good luck

Walrus

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: davidg
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 01:09 PM

In Kate and Anna McGarrigle's "SONG FOR GABY" on the same record ("Matapedia") as the above-mentioned "Going Back to Harlan," Anna sings "Jane was in the choir-loft with Rufus at her side, they played and sang 'What'll I Do When You Are Far Away?'" This is the great Irving Berlin song that they later recorded on "The McGarrigle Hour."

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: LR Mole
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 12:43 PM

Jackson Browne, in "HOLD OUT", sings, "How we laughed when we first knew love / singing lum-di-lum-di-lie...", a reference to "MICKEY'S MONKEY" by Smokey Robinson.

And "Do You Like Soul Music" is, I think, "Sweet Soul Music" by Arthur Connelly (which itself is a gloss on a song called "YEAH, MAN"). Begs for a folk version, a la "Old Time Religion".

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 11:22 AM

Murray: Here's another transcription of Midnight on the Water that gives the line "Good luck in the morning"!

"The lark in the morning" sounds good to me.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,Tanner
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 10:28 AM

When June Tabor did Eric Bogle's *No Man's Land*, they really played *The Flowers of the Forest* reel in a finale.

Of course, there is a Scottish pipe tune called *Bonaparte's Retreat*.

*Oh take me away boys, for me time is not long* - it's from a popular Irish song called *Fiddler's Green*. It's about place *...where the fishermen's go/ If they don't go to hell*. :-)

The old Irish rebel Band Wolfe Tones have put on their album titled *Spirit of the Nation* two related songs. An old woman, the main character of *Down by the Glenside* is singing the chorus of *Bold Fenian Men*, actually the next track.

I personally think it's a good thing (or should I say *a good tradition*?) that some new songs and some old ones have common points. Very attractive feature of traditional music, when nobody cares of that god damned copyrights.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 10:24 AM

Long time since I learned "Midnight on the Water", but I have always sung "The lark in the morning", rather than "Stay up till the morning" as in Suzanne's lyric. I am prepared to be corrected however.

Murray

Subject: Lyr Add: ONE FOR MY BABY^^
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:44 AM

Murray: Here are the complete (I think) lyrics to Ron Kavana's Midnight on the Water.

"Set 'em up, Joe" is a phrase from this song, which isn't in DT, but should be, because it's such a classic:

ONE FOR MY BABY (AND ONE MORE FOR THE ROAD)
(Words by Johnny Mercer, music by Harold Arlen, 1943.)

It's quarter to three,
There's no one in the place except you and me,
So, set 'em up, Joe,
I've got a little story you oughta know,
We're drinking, my friend,
To the end of a brief episode,
Make it one for my baby
And one more for the road.

I got the routine,
So drop another nickel in the machine,
I'm feelin' so bad,
I wish you'd make the music dreamy and sad,
Could tell you a lot,
But that's not in a gentleman's code,
Make it one for my baby
And one more for the road.

You'd never know it,
But, buddy, I'm a kind of poet
And I've got a lotta things to say.
And when I'm gloomy,
You simply gotta listen to me,
Until it's talked away.

Well, that's how it goes
And Joe, I know you're gettin' anxious to close,
So thanks for the cheer,
I hope you didn't mind my bending your ear,
This torch I've found,
Must be drowned or it soon might explode,
Make it one for my baby
And one more for the road.

[Created for the film, "The Sky's The Limit," 1943.]

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:28 AM

Rory McLeod's song BACK TO DONEGAL makes reference to quite a number of both tunes and songs from Paddy on the Turnpike and Eileen Oige (sp?) to I Ain't Got No Home In This World Anymore and The Town I loved So Well. Unfortunately, I don't have the lyrics to hand at the moment and couldn't find them on the Internet.

Brian

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: campfire
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:15 AM

In Bill Staines' "ROSEVILLE FAIR":

"I can hear them now, playing "Comin' through the Rye".

campfire

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:07 AM

A borrowed and referenced guitar lick from the Beatle's "I Feel Fine" occurs in "DON'T CALL US (WE'LL CALL YOU)" by Sugarloaf

Said: Listen, kid, you paid for the call
You ain't bad but I've heard it all before
He said: it sounds a little bit like John, Paul, and George and Ringo; famous guitar riff

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:04 AM

If Old Orange Flute is mentioned here so should its counterpart from the other side of the divide, mentioning lots of Irish rebel songs, namely THE FENIAN RECORD PLAYER.

Also, a song mentioning only titles from one single songwriter should be listed here: CYRIL SAID IT ALL BEFORE.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 07:48 AM

Ron Kavana's "MIDNIGHT ON THE WATER" is an interesting example of the genre.

"Play me a fiddle tune, sing me a song
Banish Misfortune, my time is not long
Midnight on the water, so steady and slow
The Lark in the morning, one more for the road
Midnight on the water, so steady and slow.
Let's have another drink so set 'em up Joe

I have wondered from time to time which of these phrases are fiddle tunes and which are not. I know that Midnight on the Water is. I know that Banish Misfortune is. I know that Lark in the Morning is.

But how about My Time is not Long? is that a tune, or just part of the song lyric. I assume there is NOT a fiddle tune called Let's Have another Drink, and I would be totally amazed if there was a tune called Set 'Em up Joe

Murray

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Bert
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 11:37 PM

Back in the seventies there was a song called "Old Buck Jones Guitar" (or something like that) which mentioned "Wildwood Flower", "Old joe Clark" and "Cindy Lou".
AND in my own "Plastic Flower Seeds" I mention "Barbry Allen"

Bert.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 03:54 PM

Ooh, incestuous metasongs, hmmm. I think Simon refers to an old Simon and Garfunkel tune somewhere, but it's not coming up. Will keep thinking.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: davidg
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 12:54 PM

From "END OF THE LINE" (Traveling Wilburys): "Maybe somewhere down the road when somebody plays Purple Haze."

Also, The Beatles' "GLASS ONION" mentions "O-Bla-Dee Oh-Bla-Da"(however you spell that) and makes reference to "I am the Walrus."

Which set me to thinking: is there another example of a song that refers to another song that was written by the same person? (You'd never know I majored in English) Anyhow, I can think of one other:

"SARA" by Bob Dylan:

Stayin' up for days
In the Chelsea Hotel
Writin' "Sad-Eyed Lady
Of the Lowlands" for you.

Any others?

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: toadfrog
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 11:41 PM

This thread reminded me of a song which makes a very interesting use of an internal hymn; anyone interested may CLICK HERE.

And has anyone mentioned "I WANNA GO BACK TO DIXIE"? It contains parodies of at least 5 songs, in just 2 verses!

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Barbara
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:16 PM

The Finest Kind sing a song written by group member Shelley Posen called Fa-Sol-La about discovering Shape Notes. In the middle of the song the lyrics say that his favorite Shape Note is "Showers of Blessings" and then it modulates up a fourth and goes into the "fuging" part of the song, and then back to Shelley's melody for one more verse.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,John Leeder
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 03:43 PM

Paddy Tunney's "THE HURRICANE OF REELS" (recently recorded by Cathal McConnell) works a lot of reel titles into the lyrics.

The Kipper Family's "NORTHREPPS TWELFTH NIGHT SONG" (did I get the title right, without the tape at hand?) says "We've sung 'Greensleeves' and 'The Wild Rover'" as the typical songs for a tacky drunken festivity.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 02:41 PM

Right on, Roger. And there were others before the fifties/sixties. Is the song with the line, "You'll find them all/Doing the Lambeth Walk" itself called "THE LAMBETH WALK"? I think so.

CC

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Tiger
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 10:45 AM

Tom Paxton's "DID YOU HEAR JOHN HURT?" is a nice one.

He weaves in "MY CREOLE BELLE", "Spanish Fandango" and "CANDY MAN BLUES" - doesn't just mention them.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 10:21 AM

All those one-song dance crazes you thought you'd forgotten (BONY MORONIE, MASHED POTATOES etc.) are mentioned in one of the Blues Brothers [originally The Contours] numbers. Is it DO YOU LOVE ME (NOW THAT I CAN DANCE)?

RtS (I can remember the Twist but I don't think the old back is up to it these days!)

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Mark Clark
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 10:11 AM

Mrrzy, The country song you remember (By Pee Wee King, I think) is called "BONEPARTE'S RETREAT." It set words to an old fiddle tune of the same name and refers to the fiddle tune (metasong) in the lyrics. Pee Wee changed the timing of the tune and added the snake dance part which many modern fiddlers have now adopted.

Other metasongs include "UNCLE PEN":

He played an old tune called Soldiers Joy
and another called The Boston Boy
but the greatest of all was Jenny Lynd,
to me that's where the fiddle begins

"THE HILLS OF ROANE COUNTY":

put one of my songs in your letter for me

and "THE LITTLE WHITE CHURCH":

they would sing the old song "Rock Of Ages"
Christ let me hide myself in thee.

Many other examples exist, I expect we'll collect a bunch of them right here.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Grab
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 09:48 AM

Just heard another one today - [SWEET SOUL MUSIC by Arthur Conley. 1967] "Do you like good music" goes through a load of 60s soul music.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 09:22 AM

CYRIL SAID IT ALL BEFORE by Tom Lewis

Brian

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: vlmagee
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 08:30 AM

Gordon Lightfoot has a song on his Sundown album called CIRCLE OF STEEL. It is a very haunting song, about poverty and despair, set against the backdrop of the Christmas season. It includes this verse:

"DECK THE HALLS" was the song they played
In the flat next door where they shout all day.
She tips her gin bottle back till it's gone.
The child is strong.
A week, a day, they will take it away
For they know about all her bad habits.

In addition, the first three notes of "Deck The Halls" are the starting notes of each verse, but there is no other similarity.

He has at least one other song reference that I remember, but it isn't as striking. It's from a song called ROMANCE, on the album "Salute." The line is:

They say that people don't change Like "HOME ON THE RANGE", it's original

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 06:48 PM

Joan Baez sings a song called (I think) 'MICHAEL', which is full of ironical references to other folk and protest songs and the folk scene in general. I haven't got the words down as I taped it from the radio ages ago and the tape is in bad shape now. Does anyone remember this song and could help with the words?

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Snuffy
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 05:09 PM

Tom he was a piper's son
Learned to play when he was young
All the tunes that he could play
Were 'OVER THE HILLS AND FAR AWAY'

Subject: Lyr Add: GOIN' BACK TO HARLAN (Anna McGarrigle)
From: SDShad
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 05:04 PM

Kate and Anna McGarrigle's "Going Back to Harlan" has quite a few:

GOIN' BACK TO HARLAN
As recorded by Kate and Anna McGarrigle on "Matapedia" (1996)

There were no cuckoos, no sycamores
We played about the forest floor
Underneath the silver maples,
The balsams and the sky

We popped the heads off dandelions
Assuming roles from nursery rhymes
Rested on a river bank
And grew up by and by
And grew up by and by

Chorus:
Frail my heart apart and play me a little "Shady Grove"
Ring the bells of Rhymney 'til they ring inside my head forever
Bounce the bow, rock the gallows for the Hangman's Reel
And wake the Devil from his dream

I'm goin' back to Harlan
I'm goin' back to Harlan
I'm goin' back to Harlan

And if you were Willy Moore
And I was Barbry Allen
Or fair Ellen, all sad at the cabin door
A-weepin' and a-pinin' for love
A-weepin' and a-pinin' for love

Chorus

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: JenEllen
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 04:54 PM

Nanci Griffith's LISTEN TO THE RADIO:

'There's a moon across the border
In the Louisiana sky
I smell the Pontchartrain, I hear SILVER WINGS
And then away Merle Haggard flies'

~J

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 04:39 PM

Yup, Summer Rain. And "Oh, the Wind and Rain," lovely macabre thing that it is. For that matter, "BILE THEM CABBAGE DOWN" qualifies, as "The onliest song I ever did sing was 'Bile Them Cabbage Down.'"

CC

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Matt_R
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 03:21 PM

The second verse of Hootie and The Blowfish's "Only Wanna Be With You" goes:

Put on a little Dylan, sitting on a fence
I say "That line is great". You ask me what he meant by
"They said I shot a man named Gray
Took his wife to Italy
She inherited a million bucks and when she died, it came to me
I can't help it if I'm lucky."
I only wanna be with you

Ain't Bobby so cool?
Only wanna be with you
Well I'm tangled up in blue
Only wanna be with you

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 01:03 PM

Barry O'Neill at Stanford University has an amazing collection called OLD SONGS MADE UP OF SONG TITLES. He says, "This became a fad in the 1860's." The song I posted above is from his collection. Do you suppose O'Neill is acquainted with Hofstadter? Wasn't Hofstadter at Stanford when he wrote "Gödel, Escher, Bach"?

Subject: Lyr Add: TITLES OF SONGS^^
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:44 PM

Found at http://www.stanford.edu/~boneill/allsongs/rand1.html

From Vance Randolph, Ozark Folksongs V. III p. 282: "Titles of Songs."
Sung by Mr. Will Guilliams, Farmington Ark, Oct 22, 1941. Mr. Guilliams learned the song near
Farmington in the early 90's


TITLES OF SONGS^^


Friends, now listen for a while.
I'll not detain you long.
I'll tell you of the titles of
Some very ancient songs.

Mickey O'Flannagan he had a Bull Pup,
Down Where the Pansies Blow.
Don't You Leave Your Mother, Tom,
For Mary Kelly's Beau.

Tie White Wings and Peek-a-boo
With a Knot of Blue and Gray.
I got The Letter That Never Came
On Saint Patrick's Day.

I knew she'd Call Me Back Again
From Over the Garden Wall.
She and I was A Warrior Bold
The Day I Played Baseball.

Lorene, Maureen, Sally Green,
Little Widow Dunn,
All Alone, back Home Sweet Home,
And Johnny Get Your Gun.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Jim Krause
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:16 PM

There's a song that Si Kahn sings that mentions several Thomas Moore songs, and a few that are Scottish, I think. The titles I remember are The Last Rose of Summer, and I think possibly Burns' Auld Lang Syne. Oh what is the title of that song?
Jim

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 11:41 AM

Byker Hill references dancing to the tune of Elsie Marley.
It also does that self-reference thing (ish maybe) in talking about the pipers playing "The Bonnie Lass of Byker Hill". Or is there such a tune?

Kris

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: UB Ed
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 11:37 AM

Here's the verse Gervase referenced from THE GALWAY SHAWL

I played "THE BLACKBIRD" and "The Stack of Barley",
"RODNEY'S GLORY" and "THE FOGGY DEW",
She sang each note like an Irish linnet
Whilst the tears stood in her eyes of blue.

That's a GREAT song.

Ed

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 11:26 AM

THE OLD ORANGE FLUTE mentions the "Protestant Boys" and several other sectarian songs

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 11:17 AM

Here's a self-reference in a folk song:

"The only tune that fiddle would play was 'Oh, the Wind and Rain' . . ."

There are 2 versions in DT that contain this self-reference: THE WIND AND RAIN (Two Sisters), and OH, THE WIND AND RAIN (The Two Sisters) -- and several other versions of "The Two Sisters" (Child #10) that don't.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: LR Mole
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:37 AM

Mr. Chicken: (I was going to address you as "Mr. Charlie", but...) The song you want is "SUMMER RAIN" by Johnny Rivers

("All summer long we spent dancin in the sand
And the jukebox kept on playin 'Sargeant Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band')

written by James Hendricks (not Jimi, but one who was married to Mama Cass for a while). He also wrote the songs used in the TV series "Then Came Bronson", including "Goin' Down That Long Lonesome Highway". Not the famous Bronson, either. Hendricks wrote another hit for Rivers around that time, too, but I can't get it now.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 09:25 AM

Matt - no , no tape, fork it over, sounds great! And yes, Godel Escher Bach is a great book, indeed. I especially liked the Crab Canon. (No explanations - read the book!) - but that's a good point about the Tennessee Waltz, I'd never noticed it referenced ITSELF. I can't think of any others like that...? A song that mentions itself, rather than another song? And I don't quite count songs about musicians that enumerate the repertoire, I'm thinking more of songs that mention other songs as they tell whatever story they are telling, more like The Band Played Waltzing Matilda and less like THE PIPER THAT PLAYED BEFORE MOSES...

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Grab
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 09:22 AM

Recursive songs - "Crocodile Rock". Plus many 60s dance songs (MONSTER MASH, etc, etc)

On a classical front, how's about the 1812 Overture? Bits of the Russian and French national anthems, plus Russian folk songs.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,Keith A still working
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 04:44 AM

SHANNON & CHESAPEAKE has lots of refs. to the Revolutionaries' fondness for playing Yankee Doodle Dandy.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,Keith A at work
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 03:09 AM

In THE BONNIE LASS OF FYVIE-O the pipes play The Lowlands of Fyvie, And the drums play something also (Braes of Dyce?)

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:08 AM

The Keeper of the Eddystone Light" incorporates Rule Brittannia - Not my version? I know about the equinoctial gales, but that wasn't the Eddystone Light, it was Rule, Brittania, Brittania rules the waves, and Britains never never never shall be Married to a mermaid at the bottom of the deep blue sea. Nobody knows that song! Wow!