BS: Legalise Drugs ?

Subject: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:20 AM

Should drugs be legalised?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Amergin
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:25 AM

well it would be cheaper if they were legal...i mean for society in general....

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Peg
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:27 AM

you mean the drugs which are currently illegal, and not, say, caffeine, alcohol, and nicotine, right?

Peg

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:27 AM

Yes

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Peg
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:37 AM

Good question. Some drugs are illegal because they really are dangerous. Some are illegal because they are so easy to find and confiscate that they allow the illusion that a "war on drugs" is being won (I am thinking, of course, of marijuana, which aside from being a relatively benign recreational drug, is also possessed of many medicinal benefits). Cocaine and heroin and crack and crystal meth are far more serious problems in America yet for some reason people caught with a few joints or an ounce of pot get tehn years in prison.

I think there are plenty of drugs that are readily available with a doctor's prescription that are teribly addictive and harmful (like some of the narcotic pain relievers, oxycontin, demerol, oxycodone, etc.); and then drugs that are available over the counter which are overused and abused by consumers and over time can cause health problems (like laxatives, analgesics and cold medicines). And some items which are not manufactured or sold as drugs but which are very easy to obtain and are used to get a "high" and often cause illness and death (like inhalants).

Peg

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:50 AM

Yes.
If you can buy cigarettes, then you should also have the right to try and kill yourself in any other manner you choose.

I think marijuana, hash and their derivatives should be sold freely, to anyone of legal age, and widely distributed. The ease of buying it should be the same as going into the corner store for a 6 pack.

But I think the rest of them should be tightly controlled by the govenment and only existing addicts should have prescriptions.

With the enormous profits, money could go towards more rehab centers, reducing taxation, and taking a huge bite out of organized crime. There wouldn't be many more addicts than there already are...and there would be a lot less drug-related crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 01:20 AM

I agree

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 02:16 AM

I'll respond later, maybe tomorrow, after I think about what I want to say................garuntee it'll be a long post.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Amergin
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 02:21 AM

so what's new scorch my dear?*BG*

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: John P
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 09:41 AM

Yes, drugs should be legal. Having them be illegal is a huge intrusion into the personal lives of individuals by the government (why don't the Republicans resent that??) I don't think there are many people who want to take drugs who are stopped by the illegality. And, from a purely pragmatic viewpoint, the war on drugs is such a huge and obvious failure that it is time to try something else with all that money. And think of all those tax dollars rolling in!

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 09:46 AM

(creeping into music) Legalize it, and I'll advertise it!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 09:50 AM

What depressingly narrow-minded and irresponsible responses . . . Or, I suppose, simplistic comments (all of which have some merits) on a complex issue.

What I HATE most of all is ANY talk about "Drugs" as a single entity . . . (and the second hate is the usage of "Drugs" to mean "illegal drugs", so well asked, Peg.)

Anyway, I'm out of here; this is one argument I don't have time for . .

Have a nice bun-fight!

George

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 09:54 AM

Which drugs are you talking about...or do you mean all drugs. Do you perceive any difference between caffeine, marijuana, heroin, PCP, and crack cocaine? Is it all or nothing or do you just want to redraw the line? Is anyone in favor of drug legalization and also in favor of banning guns?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:00 AM

I am in favor of legalizing and regulating all drugs, including the nasty ones and the ones currently legal but not regulated as I'd like to see. That is, to get any mind- or body- altering substance, you should have to go to a pharmacy (the way you have to go to liquor stores now). Pharmacists should keep records as they already do and say things like If you take that, it will interact with this other thing. It is then the customer's choice to do it anyway. If there is a bad outcome, they have the same problem as drunk drivers - they have committed a crime and gotten caught. Right now I take 3 separate prescription drugs, but if I want Niquil I can just go get it, hardly safe, that is. As it is I always call my pharmacist (whom I think is sending several children through college on me alone!) and ask if I'm already taking X Y and Z, what happens if I take this one too. Not to mention all the taxes the gubmint would collect selling these, the way they do with cigs and booze.

Unclear what was narrow-minded in the above, oh well, irrelevent I guess...

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:01 AM

I'm in favour of decriminalisation of certain (currently illegal) drugs, undecided about what to do about the rest of the illegal drugs and also in favour of keeping the UK's gun laws at least as strict as they are now. Is there a problem with this?

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:04 AM

If you are for legalizing all drugs are you also for the rise in taxes we will need to keep the drug rehabs centers in operation? You can't just expect only good to come out of such a thing. You can however expect a rise in the number of addicts.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:09 AM

Karen, there may be a rise in addiction levels, but there may also be a reduction in drug related crime. I don't know that there is any evidence that legalising all drugs whould result in an increase in public spending. And I'm sure spending on addiction clinics is a minute proportion of any country's national spending...

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:14 AM

Difficult question. I've no conclusions myself at present, so I'm very interested to read the various arguments people will put forward.
Its always hard to sift throught the highly subjective and the propaganda on the drugs issues. One thing I am sure of though is that I'm really glad not to trapped into an illegal and expensive addiction. That must be terrible.
I do border on having a problem with alcohol though - and I'm pretty sure that easy access to any other addictive drugs would not be good for me....

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Peg
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:15 AM

well George H I did not really find any of the responses so far "narrow-minded" but you have a point re: classifying all drugs unto a single entity. Ther is no real point in doing so.

Cocaine is every bit as addictive as Demerol; but one is legal. And the use of coca leaves by indigenous peoples in Columbia and other parts of South America, prior to processing, is actually rather healthful (it is used by workers in the fields for alertness, appetite suppression, mental clarity).

Cigarettes, coffee and alcoholic beverages are all quite addictive to certain individuals and just about anyone over 18 can buy them (a school kid can buy coffee).

Marijuana is, as I said, benign and even helpful to many (especially AIDS sufferers, glaucoma patients, and those who cannot eat because of chemotherapy). Yet the American goverment continues to demonize it and will not even approve sales of medical marijuana to those who need it and for whom no other substance will work.

And someone who smokes too much pot one night is not too terribly likely to beat his wife, crash her car, or start a fight at the local tavern...more likely to fall asleep on the sofa eating ice cream and watching Dr. Who or listening to old Elton John records...

I recently temped at the "Pain Management" center of a large and prestigious hospital in Boston. The number of painkiller-addicted people I talked with on the phone was staggering. Some had legitimate pain problems, yes, but most of them had been on various narcotics for YEARS and even when the doctors were refusing to up their prescriptions or give them an extra supply when they had goen through their scrip early, the lies and desperation of these people was beyond belief...everything from "I lost the bottle" to "The doctor said I should take twice as many as it said on the bottle" to "Someone stole it."

But, again, people get addicted to over-the-counter stuff, too: sleep aids, diet pills, laxatives, cold and asthma medication, and even the deceptively-harmful non-aspirin pain relievers (acetaminophen/paracetemol has been linked to kidney and liver disease after prolonged use).

People will take ANYTHING! Instead of making lifestyle changes to improve their health, people wish to rely on a palliative. Taking ibuprofen for back pain masks that pain and could make the condition worse. Taking laxatives for constipation instead of altering diet and lifestyle is very very dangerous and can cause the body to become dependent on them. Cold medicines (especially decongestants) do not allow the body to rid itself of infection in a gradual and natural way and so can suppress the immune system. And let's not even get started on how damaging it is to take antibiotics indiscriminately...

Most of the people I know who smoke marijuana for occasional recreational use (or take psilocybin mushrooms for an occasional mind-expanding experience) are people who are very healthy and do not take any OTC medications...one could argue both types of drugs are unnecessary, but in our society only one type is known as "good".

Peg

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:23 AM

I'm not opposed to legalizing some drugs that are presently considered "illegal" but, let's face it, there are drugs out there that are basically harmful to humans when taken in large quantities or over a certain period of time. There has to be a dividing line between the two types. I'll admit though that the "dividing line" needs to be re-examined more than it is currently by those who decide what is "legal" and what is "illegal".

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:33 AM

I'm with Peg on this one. I think that decriminalising cannabis is a step towards responsible use of recreational drugs. It seems to work in Holland where cannabis, although not strictly speaking legal, is tolerated by the law enforcement agencies. Holland has no more of a "hard drug" problem than Britain. I also agree with Bagpuss on handguns. They are instruments of death and should not be tolerated.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:33 AM

Peg, you make several good points about the abuse of controlled substances and I understand your position on marijuana and mushrooms, but are you saying not to release other illegal drugs as controlled substances because they will be abused, or are you saying since abuse is already happening why impose any control?

As for prescribing narcotics for recreational or mainternance use (not medical use, this is another topic entirely) don't England and some other countries provide methadone maintenance programs...has this curbed heroin use or the number of adddicts?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:35 AM

While I agree that cannabis is a relatively harmless drug, I think we need to be careful about implying that the health risks are negligible. There is a strong link with lung cancer (possibly due to deeper inhalation of the associated tobacco) and a recent study has shown an increased risk of heart attacks in the first hour of taking cannabis. While this increease risk is not much of an impact on a younger user, it has been shown to be quite dangerous for the over 50's - comparable to the risks of the 50 year old who starts going to the gym without a gradual increase in activity levels.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:42 AM

Bagpuss, sorry I forgot to respond...I mention gun laws because the argument for legalization of drugs usually has something to do with the fact that drugs are not in and of themselves harmful to society, it is their abuse or misuse...therefore drugs should be legalized and any crime resulting should be prosecuted more strictly. This same argument is used for guns...the NRA in the U.S. supports strict prosecution of anyone who uses a gun in a crime, but supports the rights of individuals to own any number and type of firearm. There are further similarities between arguments between type of drug (marijuana vs. crack) and types of firearms (.22 rifle vs. Uzi or hollow tip bullets).

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: IanC
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:45 AM

Dan

The one major difference being that most guns are designed to do harm to people.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: IanC
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:46 AM

(I mean someone other than the user).

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:48 AM

I have had the pleasure of living with an alcoholic and the joy of living with an addict. Sure, legalize it all. With any luck, they will drink, inhale, or mainline themselves to death and let the rest of us get on with our lives. Any of you had the pleasure of holding a crack baby?
SINSULL, somewhat bitter.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:54 AM

Well, here's my two penn'orth.
Some currently illegal drugs are more addictive/ dangerous than others
Sale of illegal drugs makes huge profits for criminals.
The fact that some drugs ( eg Pot) are widely felt to be "acceptable" but are still illegal brings the law into disrepute. People who are otherwise law-abiding buy & consume such "soft" drugs and do not feel that it is morally wrong. HOWEVER, much of the profit from sale of these "soft" drugs, goes to the same gangsters who deal in the "hard" drugs.
This is very similar to the prohibition days in the US when criminals made fortunes on booze, and were regarded as "the good guys" by many otherwise law-abiding citizens.
So my proposal is this:
Have an open, informed discussion, and agree different categories for each drug.
(For discussion I'll put forward 3 categories. Maybe there should be only 2, maybe 4 or more)

Category 1: Least Harmful
To be sold legally, taxed & controlled, in much the same way as tobacco or booze.

Category 2: Mid Level
Available on a very strictly controlled basis, through pharmacies, and requiring regular medical check-up, paid for by user.

Category 3: Seriously Poisonous Utterly prohibited. Very serious penalties for possession, or use (like 5 years minimum for a first offence) and say 20 to 200 years for dealing.(I do not support the death penalty, but you may feel differently).

I think this would have the following advantages:
(1)Those who take the occasional puff, (inhaled or not :o), or slice of space-cake, at a party, can indulge without feeling criminalised.
(2) More respect for what is seen as a more sensible law should encourage people to support said law.
(3) Profits of the drug barons slashed.
(4) Taxes gained on categories 1 & 2 can be used for medical research/ rehabilitating addicts/ law enforcement/ education about the REAL dangers etc.


Reasoned debate welcomed!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Gervase
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 11:03 AM

I can't agree on the guns argument. I shoot, and the legislation that has been passed by knee-jerk in the UK is major pain in the arse.
And there's no sign that gun-related crime is falling - if anything it's got worse because so many people offloaded/sold/"mislaid" firearms when the '88 Firearms Act was coming in.
OK, no-one in the UK has a need for a semi-automatic rifle or carbine, but plenty of people I know used to use semi-auto shotguns for pigeon clearance and the like. Yet the anti-gun lobby tends to blanket everything together and shout "ban them". Pistol-shooting, too, had plenty of legitimate adherents in the UK until the ban. Yes, pistols are designed to shoot people, but so are swords, yet fencing isn't crippled by absurd legislation. The key is responsible ownership (Hamilton in Dunblane should never have been certificated, and the police bear a heavy responsibility for letting him have his guns legally with his record)
A bit like drugs, really. I'm all for legalising cannabis, the drying of psilocybin, peyotl, mescalin and other Class B drugs - if only because it would take their sale and distribution out of the hands of the crooks - but I'd draw the line at PCP, cocaine, opiates and synthesised LSD.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 11:16 AM

One can draw the line anywhere . The line is drawn for us when any non violent , natural and ubiquitous human behavior is legislated a crime.

Sad as a crack baby is , there are pesticide babies , plutonium babies , Pb babies , PCB babies etc. ad infinitum.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: chip a
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 11:21 AM

Sinsull,

Never held a crack baby but I stuck holes in my arms for years. You're right and thanks for your comments.

Glad to be free.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 11:56 AM

Donuel, people encourage the government here in the US to stop the horrors of PCB babies and Pb babies, and plutonium babies...laws and regulations are created...I'm not sure I understand your point.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:03 PM

You want druggies to pay their "fines" at the register and simply change the word to "tax"?

What about the Attorney's cut?

How's that gonna fly past any legislature made up of, wassatagain?

Do you realize how many folks your putting out of work?

What about the guy who bakes bread for the jailhouse?

He got a gubment contract - cost him dearly to get it.

Some lawyer with connections got it for him.

How's he supposed to feed his kids if you let his customers go free?

And what about the court docket, how's the judge sposed to scrape up da dough to put his kids through Havad if his caseload disappears.

Its no secret that . . .

If anyone really wanted to make an impact on drugs, the first thing would be to avoid courtrooms. If the DEA adamantly refused to enter a courtroom or prosecute - anyone, they could use their resources to train dogs to sniff out and simply destroy the fruits of that effort.

Who's gonna hold them accountable? Without a pending case, search and seizure violations are caput.

What good does it do to send person 1 into one door, while person 2 goes out the other?

If the supply / demand situation remains the same the benefit is zilch.

Unless you're a lawyer!

Is is any wonder that with all the dough spent the drug industry, legal and otherwise flourishes all round the planet.

Think about that next time you read about someone caught smuggling American made AIDS pills back into the U. S.

Makes you want to put some people up on gurneys and show them getting their due (via drugs for poetic justice) on closed circuit TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:04 PM

I'm in favour of legalising, regulating and TAXING THE HELL out of drugs!

Given that we pay almost a 700% tax mark up on smokes, can you imagine what the governemnt would be charging for a deck of pot?!? A dime bag of coke???

Deficit? What Deficit?!?!

The up side is that it puts the 'drug lords' out of business...

For that matter, while were at it, let's legalise, regulate and tax prositution as well... Put the pimps to work on the drug farms then...

Hell.. who am I kidding... Windsor has legal prositution... so get with the times eh!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: BobP
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:31 PM

Seeing that my barrage attack against the legal profession's failure to select a course wherein at least some measure of success could be discerned was delivered without ID, I determined to correct that so those of you who support an effort that has taken and/or ruined more lives and cost more than any war in my lifetime could identify the source and let loose a return barrage in my direction.

Take your best shot.

Meanwhile, I'd like to summarize with a motto left behind from another losing effort we once fought against: No, not "Just Say No" I was thinking a certain black wall in DC, one you cannot even see from certain viewpoint, and the thought I cannot shed is: "Shame On Us All".

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:53 PM

Crazy Eddie I think you chose the wrong nane,it should be Sensible Eddie!
I think it would be interesting deciding which drugs to put into which categories.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Grab
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 01:07 PM

I'd go with Eddie's version.

Remember, all drugs were legal until relatively recently. Then there was a review of the relative dangers of each drug. Some, like pot, were deemed to be dangerous to health and to have no medical benefits, and so were criminalised. Others, like heroin, were deemed to be dangerous to health but to have medical benefits, so you can be prescribed it as a painkiller.

Trouble is, there's been no update on these rules for the last 40 years or so. All the recent medical evidence on pot has been ignored. I find this bizarre. OK, maybe you don't want to make more drugs available for distribution like alcohol and cigarettes - I have no real problem with that, although I don't think it's really justifiable. But when a chemical has been shown to have medical benefits and mere political issues stop it being available to treat people, that's crap. You can be pumped full of heroin as a painkiller, but you're not allowed to take pot to minimise the effects of chemo? Bizarre.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 01:19 PM

I have no argument against the medical use of any drug, but recreational use? sorry I'm dead against it. You want to get whacked out of your gourds do so; but dont try and blame society for the deaths on the roads, and the neglected children that are left by druggies. Sinsull I know exactly what you mean. Pull the dead bodies out of the water and you get the same feelings. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 01:49 PM

Grab,
I will admit to being mildly amused at some of the latest findings. It seems that regular pot smokers eat a lot of snacks and drink a lot of alcohol but do not weigh as much as their non-pot-smoking counterparts. The interpretation? Pot is no good for weight control because it actually stimulates appetite. AND it is also no good as an appetite enhancer for AIDS patients or those undergoing chemotherapy because it prevents them from gaining weight.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: little john cameron
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 02:11 PM

Strange how non of the posters here admit to doing "drugs?Is it because these chat sites are being WATCHED???Recently i had the honour of having a few draws with a JUDGE.Vey enlightening.btw he was here on holiday from Holland. ljc

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 02:19 PM

If you don't mind me saying so, little john cameron, the thread title is about legalizing drugs not admitting if you are using them. :-)
Anyway, I'm one of those boring type that have never used illegals....REALLY! Alcohol - yes! Drugs - no!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: little john cameron
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 02:22 PM

Hmm! that makes a lot of sense Karen, ljc

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 02:30 PM

Wanna learn, Karen?

LOL!!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 02:36 PM

LOL, Clinton! I'll admit when I'm here at work some things start to sound REAL good to me!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: BobP
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 03:17 PM

I have always thought it rather easy to distinguish between:

1) Injecting or injesting dangerous (do not construe as endorcing) or supposedly dangerous substances.

2) Smacking someone and taking their money. 3) Endangering a child, especially one in your charge.

It's clear to me that one of these behaviors cannot be successfully modified in a courtroom. Perhaps for one individual, but not for society as a whole.

Since the growth of the drug / courtroom industry into an integral part of our gross national economy, no really innovative alternatives have ever even been attempted.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: chip a
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 03:27 PM

Look under the bed little john, they're watching from there! I'm so proud that you smoked a little dope with a judge. I've met stupid judges and brilliant brick layers. What was your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Dharmabum
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 04:04 PM

I was the husband of an alcoholic/drug addict. I am the father of a heroin addict.
My wife,may she rest in peace,never managed to beat her addiction. My daughter has been clean now for 18 months.
This so called war on drugs is a complete farce. Our government will spend billions of dollars each year attempting to keep illegal drugs from crossing our boarders.Yet ,here in central New Jersey,I could travel less than 30 minutes in any direction & score heroin,crack,speed, pot, or any number of so called illegal drugs. And,no,I do not live in the city. I live in one of the more affluent,upper income counties of NJ.
Bottom line,Drugs are big business.Backed by very wealthy people. And they will protect their interests,be it within or outside the confines of the law.
The first thing we need to do is to recognize & accept the fact that drugs are a part of our society,whether they're legal or illegal. Just like drunk drivers,child molesters,crooked politicians,cops,lawers or judges. We can all adopt a "not in my neighborhood" attitude,and sweep it under the rug. But it's still there,much closer than most of us think.
So,do we legalize certain drugs?We could,we'd still have drug addicts. We've got people addicted to prescription drugs right now. We've got alcoholics,and alcohol is legal,Right? Let's face it,just because Uncle Sam says it's legal doesn't make it ok.
Maybe we need to work on creating a society where its people don't need to take something to alter their mood(can anyone say Prozac?).
Instead of trying to battle some faceless entity such as drug lords,foreign or domestic governments,or pharmaceutical companies,maybe,we should be looking into the eyes of the mothers,fathers,sisters,brothers,aunts,etc.who are effected by the results of these substances. I'm not suggesting we all go out and cradle a crack baby,or crash the funeral of someone burrying their child that's died of an overdose.Although,if you've ever been touched by it personally,you'll realize that this problem needs to be dealt with from a personal level.
At the very least,we need to start from a personal level. The way we raise & teach our kids is a real good place to start.(Holy shit,how did I get up on this soapbox?) Maybe we need to take a few minutes to explain to them that ALL drugs can hurt you if they're abused.Even the ones advertised on the TV,and in magazines,& on billboards,& the sides of busses.
"Let's see, it's ok to take "No Doze" to stay awake,And "Sleepeeze"to go to sleep,but a "joint" will land my ass in jail. Ya think we're operating in a slight "Grey Area" here.
Some of us have the propensity to become addicts,we will lose some,occasonally,we'll know & love them,& all the help in the world won't save them. But the temptation will always be there.And they will find something to fill that craving. Maybe,just maybe,if they/we, know about the alternatives :IE support groups,education, or other alt. We might save a few.
I sure as shit don't have the answers,& I'm certainly in no position to preach to anyone (excuse me if it came across that way).
But I do know that legalizing drugs will only add government control to an already F**ked up situation.And that CAN'T be a good thing.

DB.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 04:19 PM

D.,

Unfortunately, experience has proven to me that the wealthy people making money off of the illegal drug trade are not all in the illegal end of the business. Take a good hard look at the drug programs operating on Federal and State dollars as well as the private clinics subsidized by public money. Then look at the success rate of these programs. And then ask the question: Is it in their interests to eliminate or cure drug addiction? I am not sure that even most of them are.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: chip a
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 04:26 PM

DB,

Beautiful post. 18 months is a long time. 18 months is a fleeting instant. Just keep on looking in her eyes and saying "I LOVE YOU." I've been the son, the husband and the father and hearing those words has come nearer making a difference for me than anything else on earth.

Clean nearly 30 years.

Chip A.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 04:39 PM

*singing*

When I'm up I can't get down
Can't get down can't get level
When I'm up I can't get down
Put my feet back on the ground

Or

"From the rockin' of the cradle
To the rolling of hearse
The goin' up, was worth the comin' down

Folks are gonna get up somehow... may as well make the stuff as safe as possible eh!
I'll stick to pints of black myself... and decks of smokes...

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Dharmabum
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 04:41 PM

Sins,Thats why we have to take responsability on a personal level.

Chip, AMEN!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Jenny the T
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 05:11 PM

This thread has been one of the more enlightening ones I've seen for a good while, with a great many good and thoughtful points.

You'll have no argument from me if you say "heroin [or crack, or alcohol ...] addiction is wrong, bad, harmful, and to be avoided."

Arguing in favor of legalization is not, however, the same as arguing in favor of addiction. A minor, but telling, statistic: the Netherlands, where marijuana may be obtained without much fear of prosecution, has a rate of teen marijuana use roughly half that of the United States, where the reverse is true. The US has a tremendous lead, however, in the number of lives destroyed as a result of marijuana use. This is much more a result of our draconian narcotics laws than any property of marijuana itself.

There is, to me, a defensible rationale for regulating and restricting the synthesized products of laboratories, as there is for any manufactured product. I can see no such logic in attempting to ban a plant that grows, naturally, right there in the ground. Especially given the high-handed tactics--"is this a plant in your field, farmer Bob? Consider your farm confiscated. Is your passenger holding a joint, driver Joe? Say goodbye to your truck"--employed by the various layers of secret police devoted to its suppression.

We tried all these same tactics seventy-odd years ago, against moonshiners. We caused about the same amount of misery, and enriched organized crime, and fostered gangland violence, and didn't really do much to stop the bootlegging. Our approach, and the results, are no different now. Is this any way to treat your citizens? Why can't we learn?

The fact that the US has more inmates in prison than any other nation, including the People's Republic of China, many on charges of simple possession ... well, it doesn't sit well with me. Neither does the fact that many of the laws that put them there are based on deliberate lies and God-knows-what backroom dealings.

We need to quit trying to demonize an innoccuous plant, that grows in the ground. We need to quit abusing our citizenry, and quit basing laws on half-truths and propaganda.

Maybe if we did that, we could actually start _helping_ drug victims, instead of creating them.

JtT

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: little john cameron
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 06:38 PM

OK,i'll jump in at the deep end.I have been Smoking waccy baccy and its' relatives for 30years and i am still sane ha he ha.Many nights spent in bars trying to entertain Drunks.There is no comparison between someone who is stoned on Weed and a Drunk.The fight against Maryjane is a losing battle as the narc squad well know.My point is it is all a game.Do y'all know why Marijuana was made illegal in the first place?When i have a draw is am a very enteraining person and sing with lots of feeling,but on the booze and I would fight with my grannie.As you should realise by now I am talking about Grass and Hash, anything else is a no- no.BTW I AM WRED NOW.Could i type this on Booze? I don't think so!! ljc

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 06:41 PM

Evidently you can't type it on grass either!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: little john cameron
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 06:45 PM

Right on Jenny, ljc

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: little john cameron
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 06:50 PM

Show me the typo apart from WRED.KAREN. LJC

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 06:58 PM

Oh lighten up, LJC! You have to admit having it there spelled incorrectly IN CAPS was very tempting!
Really though it's all about moderation. You can go overboard on alcohol or drugs. Personally the Happy Hours I attend don't included stumbling, argumentative drunks so I don't see how grass is "better than booze". It just depends on how an individual handles it.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 06:59 PM

There! Happy? Now you can't bug me about writing "included" and I'm still sober!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: little john cameron
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 07:04 PM

Ah Karen ah widnae hae mentioned yer typo because jist bein stoned ah dinnae gie ah shit. ljc

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: little john cameron
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 07:06 PM

Ah Karen ah widnae hae mentioned yer typo because jist bein stoned ah dinnae gie ah shit. ljc

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: little john cameron
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 07:09 PM

Sorry aboot that ah wis firin up anither joint. ljc

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 07:47 PM

Maybe some American could enlighten me about this: when, in their infinite wisdom, the powers that be in the USA decided to prohibit alcohol, they had to have a constitutional amendment in order to do that.

A few year later,after they'd backed off and had another constitutional amendment to make booze legal again, they decided to introduce prohibition in respect of another drug, which till them had been legal, marijuana. But this time they didn't seem to need any kind of constitutional amendment to do it.

And now I gather that the Supreme Court has ruled that even if States try to legalise it, even for medical purposes, and after consulting the voters, they aren't entitled to do so.

Can anyone explain how the legal eagles manage to justify that kind of inconsistency?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 08:11 PM

Hi McGrath, I certainly see the inconsistency but, just so you know, the 18th Amendment actually never was against the CONSUMPTION of alcohol. It "prohibited the 'manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors' and their importation and exportation." Limiting terms, to be sure!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Jenny the T
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 08:22 PM

And the result was just what you get when you subvert what was originally a natural right--the ability to make use of plants growing in your fields--with legalistic double-talk and "findings" based on fiction. God knows why we still insist on doing it to ourselves.

JtT

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 08:26 PM

So it was legal to buy booze under prohibition but not to sell it? They could try something like that with pot, I suppose.

But it still doesn't asnwer the question - if they needed a Constitutional Amendment to prohibit the manufacture, sale or transportation of booze, how come they didn't need one to prohibit the manufacture sale or transportation of the hitherto perfectly legal substance marijuana?

When Islamic governments do this kind of thing it's regarded as shockingly oppressive...

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: GUEST,little john cameron
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 09:31 PM

Efter a wee scoot aroon the net here's whit ah came up wi.Noo ye realise ah'm no promotin onythin apairt fae Maryjane an Corned Beef here,ok.

The Emperor has nae Claes.

http://www.jackherer.com/book/ch01.html

ljc

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: MarkS
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 11:40 PM

Hi McGrath
It is a symptom of the times that what once needed a constitutional amendment now can be done by fiat and nobody raises a voice about it. Our government now regulates the design of ladders and can order an employer to maintain a certain racial balance in the workforce, etc, etc, etc. This might start an entire new discussion about the proper role of government, but this is probably not the place for it.
Back to drugs. The biggest difference between criminalized and non criminalized substances is, IMHO, the fact that nobody is mugging your grandmother for the money to buy the non criminalized ones. And if you are serious about personal liberty and the ability to choose what you want to do with your own body, you should be at liberty to consume whatever you please. There should only be sanctions if your behavior is harmful to others.
MarkS

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Peg
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 12:02 AM

Chip: good for you. I am happy for you and your courage is impressive.

I smoke pot. Not every day, not even every week, it varies, but fairly frequently.

I am a productive member of society; very creative (and I believe this is enhanced by smoking pot, as many other creative people do), rather good at my various jobs, and judging by the comments of some kind Mudcatters lately, it has not harmed my singing voice one whit.

It really makes very little sense to classify marijuana in the same category as other so-called "recreational" drugs like heroin, cocaine, ecstasy, crystal meth, horse tranque, Quaaludes, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 12:03 AM

Ok, shoot me but as far as I'm concerned the junkie is the victum as well as anyone whose in contact with them. WAR ON DRUGS, war is big business as is arms for drugs & who & where & why do we funnel volumes of money to what drug growing/manufacturing countries. The costs of educating the pre or present addict or providing a half way house to help the addicted is far less that the cost of locking one up for yrs on end (I tried to get my cousin help when he was begging for it but of all the half way houses in Boston there was room at only one Inn & that one cost $8,ooo per month, the tax payer now foots his stay at MCI Norfolk for the next 33-55 yrs). Where's the money going & who's concerned. Half way houses do work but they do not turn out the large success stories that wet are wants or cares, those on tobacco or booze have a worst shot of kicking their habits than if they were on heroin, humm, why aren't they outlawed instead of hard drugs?? I been clean close to 30 yrs too (same with my dad before he passed) & have no friends from the 60's that I know of that are still alive, seen many Od'd, seen the how the war in Nam gave addiction it's biggest shot in the arm while the drug trade got it's never ending high. Ask any relation of a junkie if there's a war raging & they'll tell you the only war they see is the personal war that tears their familys & hearts apart. I've hardly ever known a junkie who was not a bad person because of drugs unless they were bad from jump street first off, so if education were one of the keys we'd be tempted to do more than just say NO! Just to keep this a bit music related & to do a bit for thread creep here's a song I recently penned on the rude awaking of junkie who's doing time, while not not looking for a shoulder they're still bewilder at the speed & theturn of events that took place almost without they're seeing it even coming before getting hit in the face with the reality of it all.

These old wall have held me, I've been here since 83
Day by day is the way I do my time
Oh the weeks turn to yrs, a ship could float on all my tears
I'm haunted by a good kid that I once knew

Chorus: I can't go back & make a change
Every day I cry & age
I wish to God the hands of time would end my pain

Every day when I awake, I can't believe I'm in this place
I see myself & look & say what have you done
I thought I was cool, I didn;t know I played the fool
But there you go I'd never ilstened to anyone

Chorus:

I swear I hear these old walls weep when I lay me down to sleep
I know at times I must be out of my mind
I may not make it out alive, I may be here untill I die
There's not a one who'll dig my grave long, wide & deep

Chorus:

So now there you go my friend, so good of you to come again
It's not often in my day when it's not dim
I really thank you for your time & be glad your times not mine
And thank the stars that they can shine down on you.

Chorus:

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 12:20 AM

Mark S-well said,I agree with everything you said,especialy the comments "nobody is mugging your grandma",thats what prompted me to start this thread(see the capital punishment thread for my original comments) I feel people should have the right to do what they want with their body,SO LONG AS IT DOSENT AFFECT OTHERS,also if it were legal and controlled it would be safer for the users,herion is cut with all sorts of rubbish,in england we have around a million teenagers a week taking ecsacy ,sadly some of them are been sold horse traquilisers with the obvious horrific consequences.Most of the street crime around here,(mugging burgalry prostitution etc) is commited to fund a drugs habbit.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: GUEST, Eve
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:25 AM

ALL DRUGS SHOULD BE LEGALIZED. Yes, you heard me right. More damage is done by alcohol than by all illegal drugs combined, and yet it is easily obtained by anyone over 21. Hell, even though it's illegal to drink and drive, anyone going to a bar or nightclub anywhere in the world knows that, as long as they have an ID to prove they're over the legal drinking age, they will be served. No questions asked as to whether or not they're driving, right? And yet if I want to listen to Pink Floyd and smoke a joint in the privacy of my own home, I'm breaking the law... this is irony of the worst kind imaginable!

I know of only 2 people in the city where I live (60,000+), in the last 15 years, who have died of an overdose (one was a 20-something man who decided to ingest a lethal amount of Jimson weed [found alongside every highway and bi-way here in the good ol' USA] cause he heard it would get him "high", and another was a 14-year old girl from sniffing gold spray paint she purchased at our local Wal-Mart). And yet, nearly every week another alcoholic gets in his car and claims the lives of innocent people, every week a family dissentigrates because of a parent's alcoholism, every day another young person is jailed because of antiquated pot laws - and this is just in my hometown!

I cannot remember where I saw this, but I read recently that, unless our drug laws are changed, by the year 2050 there will be more people incarcerated in US jails and prisons than there will be walking the streets.

There are no moonshiners anymore. There are no dark alleys where people are trying to score a pack of Marlboros. Makes you think, doesn't it?

Let's start with marijuana. Let's tax the hell out of it. And lets do something with that money to put an end to all this madness, like ensure that those who are addicted - to anything - get the help they need.

Addicted to marijuana? Please!!! When smoked, it only makes one feel happy, calm and tranquil - not to mention gets rid of headaches, opens up the sinuses, and gives you the munchies. Overdose? Fuggedaboudit! You'd have to smoke your weight in the stuff, and the average user (like myself) probably smokes no more than a quarter ounce in a month. Would I prefer to buy it from my local convenience store as opposed to buying it from someone who also sells things I wouldn't want my worst enemy to use? Hmmmnn... let's see... What the f*@k do you think?!

Looking over the postings so far, there are a lot of intelligent people who seem to agree with at least moderate legalization. Please, write to your congressman and senator and beg them to open their eyes to the fact that the war on drugs is a losing battle that will NEVER be won. And if any of you still believe that it CAN be won, watch the movie "Traffic" - then come back here and tell us how you propose we win this stupid war. Cause frankly, as a hardworking taxpayer, I'd rather pay to house an addict in a halfway house or recovery center than to pay to house that person in a prison.

My 2 cents, EVE

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:42 AM

As a boozer and a dope-smoker, I agree that alcohol is far more dangerous than cannabis.
In fact I was mightily relieved when my son moved from being a trainee lush - when he was constantly falling over, getting into fights and even being carted home by the rozzers - into a pot-head. OK, the fridge maybe needs a padlock now, but the anticosial and self-destructive side has gone.
However - and there's always a but - dope isn't completely without its problems (and I speak as someone who's maybe smoked four days a week for a quarter of a century). Too much too often can sap motivation and turn you into a sad, boring git who can't be arsed to get up and go out to work or contribute sensibly to society.
That said, booze is far more damaging.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: BobP
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 12:25 PM

As dangerous as drugs are and cognizant of countless Belushi's,

The damage pales in comparison with the dangers of coming into direct contact with the business end of the American criminal justice system.

Not the glossy one you see on Law & Order; the one where the soldiers of America's cartels go for R & R. Where the soldiers going in get replaced seamlessly by those going out who were sent up last year.

I don't know the numbers, but if I had to bet on which has devastated more lives, It wouldn't be the drugs.

Keep in mind, the premise is an either / or, but we don't even get that, what we get is both ends of the same dirty stick.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Grab
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 12:51 PM

On the constitutional side, I'm also confused about the US rulings on this. IIRC, 1 state has voted to legalise medicinal use of pot and another is about to vote, but the federal government is insisting that federal laws override state laws, so you can still be busted for it. I bet that's going to be an interesting one for the constitutional lawyers to sort out - this'll keep the legal beagles in work for years!

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Bert
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 12:56 PM

The prohibition of certain drugs is purely a political issue. Politicians think that they can win elections by being strongly against drugs.

Whether this or that particular drug is harmful is just a red herring that is used to cloud the issue and make the stance appear acceptable.

Some currently illegal drugs are harmful and addictive. And so is caffeine and so is tobacco and so is alcohol.

Any citizen who consumes caffeine or tobacco or alcohol should be outraged that the drug of choice of others is not similarly available.
So if you drink tea or coffee or Coca Cola or any one of many other soft drinks, or eat chocolate, then you are simply a hypocrite if you don't agree with the legalization of other people's drug of choice. You are also a hypocrite if you VOTE for politicians who wish to continue this unconstitutional restriction of personal freeedom.

Bert.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 01:01 PM

We're losing the "war on drugs." Perhaps time to try a new approach, like legalization and regulation.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 02:59 PM

"It is a symptom of the times" - but prohibition of pot in the USA happened only a few years after prohibition of booze got reversed, so it's not a question of these times we are living in.

I'm not asking the reason for the difference - obviously enough, pot was used by poor people and black people and hispanics, and there wasn't a big wealthy industry tied up with it at the time, all very different from booze, and money talks; but the question is, how did they square all this with that constitution that is supposed to be so significant?

(And Barry Finn: "There are no moonshiners anymore." Don't you believe it. Well there are in Ireland anyway.)

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Dharmabum
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 03:09 PM

What's an ounce of decent weed going for now? $400/$500. And superweed?
Now let's legalize it & have it controlled by the government & have them tax the hell out of it.
WOW,I'D LOVE TO HAVE STOCK IN THAT CASH COW!!!!!

Legalize it,NO,not if that means government control.
Decriminalize it,Absolutely!

For the record,I don't smoke weed anymore. But I am not against anyone making a choice to do so.I have smoked my share & IMO it is much less harmful than many of the over the counter drugs & alcohol that are available to all of us.

Here's a thought,We decriminalize the growing & possesion of marajuana.Anyone who chooses to do so, may grow it in their own backyard or windowsill with a plant grow light. It'll make one heluva Chia pet folks!!!!!!

#1,If you can grow it ,you ain't gonna buy it.
#2,If no one's buying,no one's selling.
#3,Now, no one's getting incarcerated for pot related offences & we're not paying for their room & board.
#4,Our legal system is now free to deal with more important matters (like possibly getting the drunks off the road or putting the heroin dealers in jail).
#5,Now we've got all of this surplus cash left over from what we were paying DEA to stop the weed from crossing our boarders.
#6,And all of the effort that our narcotics agents were spending on busting the weed dealers that were selling the weed that crossed our boarders.

Now, what shall we do with all of these leftover resourses? Could we use them to fight the real drugs,to help the real victims? It takes 1 overdose to kill a drug user, It takes 1 drunk to wipe out a whole family.Maybe we could save 1 or 2.

Truth is, no one has to lose their job if pot is decriminalized. There are still plenty of illegal substances that need to be dealt with. There will always be wealthy people behind it.And there will always be government officials willing to look the other way for the right price.

I wonder if we'll be under FBI surveilance now.
Me? I'm not paranoid, Why do you wanna know?

DB.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:09 PM

Well said, Dharmabum. My thoughts almost precisely. And I already know the FBI is watching me, so I'm not any more paranoid than I ever was.

Plus, all those farmers we pay to grow tobacco could be paid to grow industrial hemp, and we could use that to make paper instead of tearing down trees.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Dharmabum
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 05:08 PM

Seems to me that "WE THE PEOPLE" outta be running the government instead of the government running the government.

Course, I sure as hell don't wanna swim with those sharks!

DB.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: hesperis
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 06:52 PM

Well, I'm with Joan Baez on this one. "It's silly to smoke it, too."

But marijuana definitely has good medical uses, such as epilepsy... so criminalizing it is more silly than smoking it.

hesperiswhodoesn'tdoanydrugsatallexceptephedraforallergieswhichisfortunatelylegal

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 09:34 PM

Why smoke it? Smoking anything is a drag and in the case of grass, it's a waste.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 10:19 PM

Negatives to legalization of all drugs (and I mean currently illegal drugs and legal drugs obtained illegally):
If you advocate legalisation, some may think you advocate, or at the very least condone the use of drugs. I suspect this is the #1 reason why people are against legalisation. It looks bad.
People may say with drugs more available, more people will have drug problems. I think most folks who really want illegal drugs can get them now.
I believe there's more of a chance people who wouldn't go near illegal drugs would try them if they were legalised and possibly become addicted.

As for the positives:
If people buy them legally, they'd be safer.
Less "selling of souls" to get them.
Less danger of having to deal with someone who cares little about the law.
No trading of sex for drugs, and all the dangers of that.
Less chance a drug is cut with a dangerous substance.
Less variance in strength, so less of a chance of overdose.
Things that aren't socially acceptable have an allure for some people. Remove the clandestine nature of drug use, and for some, you may remove a reason to use.
More of a chance that someone who wants help with an addiction will seek it - no criminal record.

There are undoubtedly more factors than these, but I know I can't think of more reasons not to legalise. It just seems to me the problems caused by illegality of drugs are far more dangerous than the drugs themselves.

I lived in Korea for 2 non-consecutive years. In the drugstores/apothecaries, Koreans could buy anything they wanted over the counter. I'm sure someone somewhere had a drug problem, but I never heard of it. I'm not saying the legality prevented a widespread drug problem, but it was obvious it didn't contribute to one.

I don't think controls on all drugs, legal or illegal, will be removed. I do think marijuana has a chance of being legalised when politicians stop focusing on image and consider facts...or when pigs fly - whichever comes first.

Cynical Jeri, who thinks it's far too hot to be sitting by this computer!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 10:50 PM

Legalize everything and then treat the people who have problems with addiction in the way they deserve to be treated -- as people with a medical situation that needs to be addressed and cared for. Get the damned gangsters out of it. Then figure out ways for people with the entreprenurial drive to make money in ways that don't kill people. Read "Man's Quest for Meaning" and maybe you'll come to the conclusion I've come to, that all this silly shit about drug and alcohol abuse comes about because we're smack-dab (no pun intended) in the middle of an enormous crisis of meaning, and people can't figure out better ways to spend the light they've been given. We don't know that we're as equally closely related to the angels as to the apes.

And the commercialization of absolutely everything means that everything precious -- sex, consciousness, love, beauty -- can and will be exploited for profit if someone can see a way to do that.

What we can do is refuse to play along, refuse to let our lives become about consuming. Work toward a sense of the holy and a sense of connection to the In Here and the Great Out There. And love the heck out of every other being we encounter, to the best of our abilities, and just see where that takes us ...

Maybe we can be comforted by the knowledge that we couldn't screw things up a whole lot worse than we have already, so maybe this wheel is about to start ascending, too.

ww

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Gervase
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 05:44 AM

A timely piece in the Guardian today argues for the legalisation of heroin, pointing out that its harmful effects come from its criminalisation.
It's a compelling argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: John P
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 08:23 AM

Follow the money. Who is getting rich because drugs are illegal? It would be interesting to find out how much cartel money is flowing surreptitiously into the campaign coffers of the more rabid anti-legalization politicians.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Dharmabum
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 08:44 AM

Interesting article Gervase,thanks for posting it.
The funny thing about the war on drugs is that it's so unclear who the enemy acually is. There is a fine line between the organizations claiming to be fighting the drug war,and the organizations that are supplying the drugs.

DB.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 10:19 AM

Gervase, I just read that. I had always been a little unsure about legalising so called hard drugs, but he makes a compelling case. But like his series on education, I doubt whether it will make any difference.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 09:21 PM

I just heard on the radio that from now if the police catch people with cannabis they will not be prosecuted,they will just get a good telling off,and have their dope confiscated,this scheme starts in Brixton today.maybe we can expect to see a few stoned cops in Brixton!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 11:22 PM

I think it will make a difference, Bagpuss. Not any one article, or any one speech or any one action. But the fact that so many people are questioning the rationality of our drug policies, and who benefits and what's really going on anyeay?, and all of it eventually will add up and we'll come up with something more rational in a few years.

Of course, human beans being what humans be, we'll figure out some other way to get things all bolloxed, but at least for a while, we might reach equilibrium on this particular issue.

ww

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 04:27 PM

Here's one way everyone can help,

Ask children you know, especially pre-high schoolers, about anti-drug messages they get in school.

The DEA and federal programs make money available to school districts for the purpose of delivering "Just Say No" sermons.

These messages, like most propaganda, are created by well meaning, but very ignorant, people and are loaded with misspoken "truths" and oversimplfied warnings that would make junkies shake their heads.

It's like when I was taught that Coca Cola would crystalize my liver(you too?). When I finally discovered otherwise, it made me skeptical of other "truths"; so I decided the way to truth was experimentation.

Bottom line? Were I a pusher, would I want the schools to keep on keeping on? You Bet!

Funny we used to say the same stuff about Viet Nam. Stuff like, "This war is working out so well for the other side, I wouldn't be surprised if LBJ is getting advice directly from Ho Chi himself.

And yes, during prohibition, they said the same about the government and Capone; that one turned out to be true.

Paxton taught me to ask my kids "What Did You Learn In School Today". And by golly, more than half of what my kids told me they learned about drugs was pure poppycock.

If I were runnning the show, I'd employ actual recovered junkies and just let them tell their stories.

Woah, unvarnished truth; that would never work!

Might scare the shit out of 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 09:47 AM

Interesting article in the Grauniad today. If true, I think it is a very sensible approach.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/drugs/

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 12:12 PM

Here's one of the victims of the "war on drugs": Franci sits on the veranda and whimpers. The little girl is underweight. Her armpits are erupting in boils. Like most of her people, she has suffered from respiratory problems and stomach pains since the aircraft and the helicopter gunships came over at Christmas and again at New Year dropping toxic pesticides on their villages.

For the rest of the story in today's Observer (England), click here.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 09:29 PM

To address the original question...

Legalise Drugs?

Yes. For the user only. The user needs help, not prosecution.

But NOT for the pusher, NOT for the one who manufactures and markets it.

Where would the user find most harmful drugs, without the pusher?

The only drug I know of that's so easy to make that any fool can do it very simply in his own home is marijuana, and if someone wants to grow his own marijuana or brew his own beer for his own consumption, it's nobody's business but his. If he creates a big organisation, puts the drug in a fancy package, and advertises it on the public media, and sells it to millions of vulnerable and often unsuspecting people, then it bloody well IS society's business.

Drug users are not criminals, per se, although they are often people with a serious emotional problem...(which sometimes can lead to crime).

On the other hand, people who knowingly market drugs in order to profit on someone else's weakness are essentially criminals, as far as I'm concerned. I include in that estimation many presently legal industries, like the tobacco companies, and in some cases the pharmaceutical companies, as well as pushers of illegal drugs. Casinos are also in the business of marketing an addiction...but of a different sort.

Drug users often become unstable and then commit crimes or antisocial acts that affect others...in that case, prosecute them for the act, not the drug. How hard can that be to figure out? I knew hundreds of young adults in the early seventies who indulged casually in various illegal drugs, and most of them were utterly harmless people. It would have been ludicrous to prosecute any of them under the circumstances, since they were not hurting anyone, except possibly (in a few cases) themselves, and that was usually hurt on a fairly trivial basis.

The people who MUST be controlled are the large organizations which profit from mass marketing of drugs. As long as they run loose in this world, you will never make any real progress by harassing the users. It's the pushers you've got to stop.

If I or anyone else should take a drug (pick any one of hundreds, both legal and illegal)...and then commit no antisocial act whatsoever as a result...then it's nobody else's business. People have a right to govern their own lives, as long as they don't hurt others. As far as hurting themselves...well, if you love them, you can give them good advice, but at the end of the day they will decide what to do to themselves. Who among us has not indulged in something at some time that someone else was wise enough to avoid indulging in? You wanna stop all of that? Arrest EVERYBODY and lock 'em up in isolation tanks. They will finally die safely without having done anything you disapprove of or consider unconventional according to whatever is your notion of conventionality.

The real reason you see the law always coming down on the Little Guy (the user)...instead of on the BIG GUY who mass markets the drugs is simply this: MONEY TALKS. The marketers have lots of money and lots of influence and friends in high places...and the users don't. It's easy to beat up on the powerless.

"Steal a little and they throw you in jail, Steal a lot and they make you a king." - Bob Dylan

Besides, this whole damned society is based on addiction! What do you think commercial advertising is all about? Addiction (emotional or physical) sells product! Ever hear of "shopping addiction"? It's far more common than illegal drug use.

Prosecuting drug users is, again, a distraction, a side issue, a "motherhood" issue. It sounds good, but it arises from a state of denial which does not even begin to address the deep systemic problems that lie at the heart of this whole money-corrupted society.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 01:08 PM

So far as I know, the only people who are consistently anti-drug are the Mormons, who quite correctly count coffee as a psychoactive drug.

In a few years time all this is going to seem absolutely crazy. People will tell their kids about it, and they'll think that they are making it up. Questions about it will turn up in general knowledge quizzes, and people won't know the answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 06:35 PM

Yep, coffee is indeed a drug, a powerful drug, and a pretty damaging one over a long period of time. That's why I quit drinking it...and BROTHER...it was not easy! It took numerous attempst over a period of several years. It's never easy to quit an addiction, which is precisely the way the pusher wants it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Marc
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 04:59 PM

Just a little more marijuana background. The prohibition of pot had very little to do with any evidence of harmfull effects what so ever. It a documented fact that the 2 major lobbiests for the passing of the "Marijuana Tax Law" were a chemical company and a paper company. The former had developed a process for manufacturing synthetic rope. The other, a by bleaching wood pulp, could make paper at far less expense. By playing on the average americans fear of black jazz musicians, eliminated their competition.(Rope and paper were once made of hemp in the U.S.). Most folks didn't realise hemp and pot were the same thing. Not only did these corporations stack the deck in their favor, they put thousands of honest farmers out of work at the begining of the depression. Modern paper manufacturing is one of the largest polluters of our water ways today, and as for plastics,well. To my knowledge nobody has yet to come up with any convincing evidence that marijane is very harmfull. I know there is the lung disease issue but most pot smokers don't smoke 30-40 joints a day, you can't fairly compare it to tobacco use. Also in this climate we live some of us get piss tested regularly so we can keep our job. Howcome if I smoked a joint 3 weeks ago I'm fired but my partner can drink every night, not to mention lunch.

Sorry for rambling Marc

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 01:56 AM

One year on, any more thoughts?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 07:49 AM

Well, for a start, Marc should check on the difference between Cannibis sativa and Cannabis vulgaris. The old "rope is made from hemp" story (I nearly said "yarn") has gone around before.

Other random thoughts: If illegal drugs are legalised, it will affect the domestic economics of quite a few coppers. Is that why so many police authorities are against legalisation?

Should currently illegal addictive drugs be generally available for sale, or made available on prescription to registered addicts?

Should all drugs be taxed? This can be interesting. Tobacco is a plant that is notoriously difficult to grow, but the amount of tax on it (around AUD250 per kilo in Australia) has made illegal growing economically possible.

Should the taxed drugs include caffein? Wouldn't you like to do that, and then run for re-election anywhere in the world?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 12:25 PM

Right on, WyoWoman. I agree with everything you said, especially "getting the gangsters out of it".

JohnP said "follow the money" and this is an important point in that the War on Drugs is a big, big business that costs us at all kinds of levels. Incareration is big, big business. Attornies, bailbondsmen, judges, court clerks, probabation and parole folks. Billions of dollars. Police, DEA, paid informants. Billions of Dollars. On the other side, like WyoWoman pointed out, the gangsters are taking bllions of dollars on the taxfree blacvk market. And how about the junkie who is hustling, stealing, ripping and running. Whos stuff is he stealing? Yours! Insurance premiunms to cover losses from stolen stuff by junkies. Billions more. And how about all the guns that the street dealers have to have to protect their turfs. Billions. (and the NRA knows this, incidently...). And the untold losses of folks who because of their Jones spend all their time hustling rather than producing and paying taxes. ( It is possible for an addict to work if he's not spending his entire day hustling for the next fix.) Yaeh, more billions. Now that's just the monitary side of this mega business. And guess what, not one danged widget is produced from this mega monster of a business. Not one widget!!!!

Then there is the human and social devestation that the "War" takes on mankind. Turning kids into gangsters. Breaking up families. Threatening communities. This is an evil godless anti-human crusade being led by folks who want to control everything and have been doing a pretty good job of doing just that for way too long. They are the ruling class who has drawn this whole thing up to create money for themselves at the expense yet again, their serfclass, which is comprised of the working class and the poor. This cannot change in the US until the citizenry stands up and lets it be known that business as usual ain't cutting it. The worst part about this, though, is that those in contral also contral the information and are adept at keeping the flock where they want them, voting for the Rebubocratic Party.

We do need to move off of this square, not only on this tragic issue but also all the tragic issues that we let the ruling class handle because as long as there is a buck in it for them then they will chase it at the expense of huymanity.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Drugs ?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 05:20 AM

Hrothgar, even though Sativa and Vulgaris are two different plants, it's still illegal in the US to grow industrial grade hemp (Vulgaris), because some people in the government argue that you can get high from it. So although Marc's botanical information may have been less than accurate, the basis for his argument was sound.