Lyr Add: Hello Hans (Harvey Andrews)

Subject: Lyr Add: HELLO HANS (Harvey Andrews)
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 05:34 PM

Joe, you KNOW I'd do anything for you (provided you come up with the cash ...). So here you are. It's the version Iain MacKintosh sings, but I don't think he changed the words very much. The tune is more like a quiet chant (if that isn't a contradiction in terms).

HELLO HANS
(Harvey Andrews)

Hello Hans
I was passing and I stopped to say hello
You don't know me
There's no reason now that you should ever know
You died here
In some prison camps conditions weren't too bad
Was it a wound, Hans
Or maybe shell-shock sent you mad
You were twenty
That's what it says upon the stone
I'm trying to imagine
What it's like to die alone
At twenty
Before you had a chance to be half grown

Do you see the child, Hans
That little girl who laughs upon your grave
She's not yours, Hans
Not the one you went to war to save
See her father
He proudly picks her up and sets her down
On your tombstone
To take some photogaphs that he can hand around
He was a young boy
At the very moment that you died
Perhaps you had a child, Hans
Who would walk proudly by your side
Or a young wife
Who tried so hard, but still she cried

So goodbye, Hans
I'll maybe come again some other time
Because I know, Hans
That grave of yours could easily be mine
You see, there's war, Hans
And men are trained to fight each other still
So it goes on, Hans
It always has, it seems it always will
But I must go now
The kids are running round and making such a noise
As you remember
When they're together boys will just be boys
But not like you, Hans
They will never be a country's broken toys

I swear
They will never be a country's broken toys

[1989:] This is the earliest of the songs in this collection. Written for Hans Steggemann, who is buried in the German military cemetery on Cannock Chase, Staffordshire, England. (Notes Harvey Andrews, '25 Years on the Road')
I suspect the name is Stegemann, which is much more common in Germany. HA lives not far from Cannock Chase, and his fine album '25 Years on the Road' ought to be still available on CD.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 06:29 PM

Thank you very much, Susanne.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: Llanfair
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 04:11 AM

I remember Marie Little singing this one, years ago, and being very affected by the song. Thanks for the reminder.
Cheers, Bron.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: GUEST,harvey andrews
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 12:48 PM

It's always interesting to see how a lyric changes.."the folk process", but I've found over the years that a lyric I've sweated blood over is always changed for the worse. A classic example is "Hey Sandy" recorded and published in his song book by Christy Moore..it's badly messed about and not improved. One group recorded a song of mine with one line changed that completely altered the meaning..and they never noticed.If what we have handed on from Anon is as bastardised as this, but over many generations then he/she must have been a lyrical genius greater than Shakespeare. However..here's the real lyric to compare with the one published on the site

Hello Hans Well hello Hans I was pasing so I stopped to say hello you don't know me and there's no reason now why you should ever know you died here, in some prison camp conditions weren't too bad was it a would Hans or maybe the shell shock sent you mad you were twenty that's what it says upon the stone I'm trying to imagine what it's like to die all alone at twenty, before you've had a chance to be half grown I was passing, so I stopped to say hello

Can you see the child Hans the little girl who laughs upon you're grave not yours Hans, not the ones you went to war to save see her Father he proudly picks her up and sits her down on your tombstone, to take photographs that he can show around he was a young boy at the very moment that you died maybe you had a little child to walk proudly by your side or a young wife who tried so very hard but still she cried can you see the little girl laugh on your grave

so goodbye Hans I'll maybe come again some other time because somehow that grave that's yours could easily be mine you see there's wars Hans men are trained to fight each other still it goes on Hans it always has, it seems it always will so I must go now, the young men milling round are making so much noise and as you rememeber, when they're together boys will always just be boys unlike you Hans, they've never been a country's broken toys so goodbye I'll maybe come again some other time

Subject: Lyr Add: HELLO HANS (Harvey Andrews)^^
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 12:59 PM

Hello Hans (re-submitted by a chastened writer who noticed the spelling mistakes...maybe that's part of the folk process..don't know why it didn't come up in verse form as printed..can someone help me on that one?

HELLO HANS
(Harvey Andrews)

Well hello Hans,
I was passing so I stopped to say hello,
you don't know me,
and there's no reason now why you should ever know,
you died here,
in some prison camp conditions weren't too bad
was it a wound Hans or maybe the shell shock sent you mad you were twenty
that's what it says upon the stone
I'm trying to imagine what it's like to die all alone
at twenty, before you've had a chance to be half grown
I was passing, so I stopped to say hello

Can you see the child Hans
the little girl who laughs upon you're grave
not yours Hans,
not the ones you went to war to save
see her Father he proudly picks her up and sits her down on your tombstone,
to take photographs that he can show around
he was a young boy at the very moment that you died
maybe you had a little child
to walk proudly by your side
or a young wife
who tried so very hard but still she cried
can you see the little girl laugh on your grave

so goodbye Hans
I'll maybe come again some other time
because somehow that grave that's yours could easily be mine
you see there's wars Hans
men are trained to fight each other still
it goes on Hans
it always has, it seems it always will
so I must go now,
the young men milling round are making so much noise
and as you remember,
when they're together boys will always just be boys
unlike you Hans,
they've never been a country's broken toys
so goodbye I'll maybe come again some other time


HA ^^

Line Breaks <br> added.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: Noreen
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 01:22 PM

Hi Harvey, and thanks for posting your words.

You need to enter a line break at the end of each line to format properly here, and twice for a double line break at the end of a verse. To make a line break, type < then br then > (you can to this by cut and paste to save a lot of typing)

Noreen

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: Noreen
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 01:43 PM

Harvey, I take your point about an author's words being changed beyond recognition, by certain singers who don't seem to know or care whether what they sing makes sense. It must be extremely frustrating. However, I think you come over as being very hard on Susanne, in this case, and she must wonder what she has done wrong. The words she transcribed, which she attributes to a version sung by Iain MacKintosh, are virtually identical to your originals, apart from the missing phrase at the end of each verse. The meaning is maintained.

A lot of time and effort is spent here by volunteers to make information as accurate as possible. We do care!

Noreen

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 04:50 PM

Harvey, it isn't like you to be this unkind! (Though I understand the frustration if someone f...s your brainchildren about.) Would you post the correct lyrics for 'Hey Sandy'? I've only got the Christy Moore version. Or if you sent them to me at [e-mail] I could post them here in correct format without you having to bother. Thanks for turning up, anyway. I'm still hoping to see you in Germany or Tonder again before long.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: GUEST,HARVEY ANDREWS
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 03:15 PM

What's fascinating here is how words are interpreted and, as in the song lyric, added to and changed. If you read my preface to the lyric I submitted you will see there is no mention of anyone other than the artists who record the lyrics sloppily, and yet you have translated this into my being unfair to Suzanne..there is no subtext and no offence was intended. Suzanne can only pass on that which she has been given. At the moment in popular music, ie the music listened to by most of the folks, the standard of lyric writing is at an all time low..we have passed from the golden age of song into the age of percussion! My particular love is literate and intelligent lyrics, and if they are there I want them preserved because they are rare and important to me, and I hope,to you and the future.I was making the point that, for me, when the folk process of change has happened to my lyrics, and to the lyrics of other writers I love, it has never improved them, only made them poorer. When the day comes that I get an improved version I will be the first to cheer!! we all have our particular passion and I'm glad we have forums like this to allow us to share them. Mine is words..so no offence intended and none should be taken!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 08:05 PM

The above post by, arguably, England's finest living English songwriter should be compulsory reading for all who protested at my post concerning "respect" in the "Can Folk lyrics ever be wrong ?" thread.

Nice to see you here Harvey. I still remember your amazing Cambridge Festival performance when you tried to make it hard for Steve Goodman to follow you! Tell the people here the story, we will forgive the thread creep:-).

Murray

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: marty D
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 12:24 PM

I was introduced to Harvey's music by a Mudcatter who's obviously a fan and possibly a friend of his, so this thread and the one about 'The Soldier' caught my interest. What I find a bit disconcerting in Harvey's reaction here is the complete lack of 'personal connection' to his listeners and indeed to those who might want to sing his songs. Nary a 'Hi people, thanks for the interest', before launching into a 'look Ma, what they've done to my song' tirade. It happens, Mr. Andrews, and despite your articulate logic, a dismissal of Susanne's efforts can certainly be implied.

I've been told that your on-stage personna is warm and inclusive. I simply wouldn't have gleaned that from the way you responded here.

If truth be known, I guess I have a bit of a personal sub-text of my own to deal with, and it's partly my reason for responding here at all. I've never felt comfortable with artists who appear dismissive of those around them UNTIL they reach the stage. Both Stan Rogers and Gordon Bok (the latter a fairly recent discovery for me)have been described in print as having those traits. Apologists twist themselves inside out (usually citing the artist's overwhelming talent) explaining the dichotomy between 'personal' and 'public' behaviour. Doesn't wash with me. It simply comes down to 'manners'. You have them or you don't.

marty

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: IanC
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 12:45 PM

Songwriters have a right to hope that people will respect the meaning in their songs. But I have a word of advice, which is this.

If you want to see your song still around in 50 years time, or even remembered, you'll have to get used to the idea that someone will use the words for their own expression. What is being commented on above is, I suspect, the first part of the folk process. That is some of the meaning being lost, so that the song can have the possibility of being used later. Often this gets to the stage of being almost totally nonsense before others come around and make a different sense of it.

If you don't believe what I say, just look at some originals from (e.g.) broadsides and what the folk process has made of them. The personality of the writer is lost, but this doesn't make them worse. If they survive at all, they're usually better.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: GUEST,harvey andrews
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 02:36 PM

Nary a 'Hi people, thanks for the interest', before launching into a 'look Ma, what they've done to my song' tirade. It happens, Mr. Andrews, and despite your articulate logic, a dismissal of Susanne's efforts can certainly be implied.

I've been told that your on-stage personna is warm and inclusive. I simply wouldn't have gleaned that from the way you responded here.

Well, I,ve just read my posting again and all I read are facts about recorded versions of my songs with no reference to any Mudcat poster, certainly no tirade, and a tongue in cheek reference to Anon!! The problem with E mail is that you can't see my face or hear my tone of voice. What I say is what I mean. Somehow people twist it and add their own sub-texts. This is my first posting to Mudcat and I don't need to be personally attacked and have attitudes attributed to me that are not real by someone I don't know who admits to a chip on his shoulder re artists ,and has the gall to question my manners!!! As far as I'm concerned i just presented my views reasonably for informed discussion in a reasonable manner in a forum for people of like mind and interest, and I'm immediately set upon!! Life is too short for this. I think I'll go back to not contributing. I dipped my toe, but it's too cold!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 03:48 PM

I'll concur with Harvey,

He simply points out that words are changed which can alter the songs meaning. He didn't tell the poster off (her even mention her name) and then simply gave his words, followed by a (red-faced?) resubmission to correct spelling mistakes (a personal connection "can certainly be implied").

His second posting further clarifies what he stated.

So, what is the problem?

I trust he will still participate in relevant threads, but with reactions like some of these above, I can't blame him if he doesn't.

Cheers Rana

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 03:58 PM

Hi, Harvey - I hope you'll come back and toss ideas around. You've written some extraordinary songs, and we'd like to know more about them. I reformatted your second posting of the song to add <br> line breaks. I hope I did it right.
You'll find that most of us here are amateur or semi-professional musicians, not fans. We have our opinions about things, and we express them in a tone that can sometimes have a critical edge to it. We're generally nice people, but the Internet has a tendency to strip the kindly tone from our conversation. I hope you won't look on that as animosity - it isn't.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 04:27 PM

Amen to that Joe. I can attest that Harvey in real life is a jovial sort who is a CRUSADER (in the 'smite the infidel' sense) for the spoken and printed word. Longtime Mudcatters know how passionate I can get about "proper" chords, timing, and in general 'investing' in the music...well Harvey feels the same about lyrics....'specially his.

This happened about 10 years ago, and at the time I was livid. I wrote a humorous article for the Mariposa Folk Festival Magazine, absolutely dripping with my weird kind of "wordplay humour". The editor apparently didn't get ANY of the jokes, and certainly none of the irony....so he took it upon himself to "clear things up" for the readers! The end result was a two page article that made absolutely no sense and implied that I thought JOHHNY MATHIS was the greatest folksinger ever! Oh, if he'd ONLY taken my name off it as well. What the hell, I can laugh about it today....except when I see one of those old magazines!!

Rick

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: GUEST,Harvey andrews
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 04:58 PM

Thank you Rana, Joe and Rick. I'm off to Germany to gig and lick my wounds.Tell them the story about my song "England my England" Rick, again irony completely missed!!
I've posted a new thread (click here) about what really happened to me recently...hope I've got my manners right!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:30 PM

"England My England", Ha ha, Harve, the TITLE should have been a dead giveaway. By the way, I love your "true" ghost story, and I'm glad you decided to share it. Creepy! Have fun in Churrmany. By the way, Harvey and I both think that Kenneth Mars' "playwrite" character in "The Producers" is a Hall of fame Classic.

Rick

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: GeorgeH
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 07:46 AM

Hey, it's wonderful to see this song here . . .

We have it on a well-played slice of Tony Capstick vinyl, and I've never understood why it's not up there with "Flowers of the Forrest" amongst the great, timeless and widely performed songs about war . . .

However, while I sympathise with Harvey's annoyance at what's been done to his songs, I think he's essentially wrong. Once a song is out there people can and will do what they want with it. And if music is to remain creative that's the way it has to be.

That's not to say we shouldn't aim to promote the excellent versions over the dross . . .

Regards

George

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 08:26 AM

Stick with it, Harvey! You never know - stay here long enough and you might even get as famous as some of the people who took offence...;-)

It can be difficult at times to put across your point of view, even a seemingly uncontentious one, without someone 'having a go'. Take no notice. You know what you meant. The people that know you know what you meant. What does it matter if someone you don't realy know and does not realy know you missinterprets your words either innocently or with a hidden agenda in mind?

In the words of Mr Kipling, who if I am not mistaken was named after a lake located near you - or was it the other way round? Anyhow.

"If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken,
twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools."

Dip your toe in more often - the temperature either changes or you get used to it!

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: Noreen
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 10:08 AM

Harvey,

"..here's the real lyric to compare with the one published on the site" ,

after what you had said about words being corrupted, seemed to me to be lumping this case in with the others. I'm sorry for misreading your intention, and I certainly have no hidden agenda. We're on the same side in this! Do stick around, it's a good place to be.

Noreen

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: marty D
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 10:40 AM

Oops, open mouth, insert foot. Well I guess I can at least try to remove said foot. I apologize for anything that appeared scathing in my above post. I seem to have been overly sensitive a couple of times recently when I've seen what I honestly thought was someone dumping a bit unfairly on someone else. I guess my 'knight on a white horse' comes through much too quickly these days.

Dave said: 'Stick with it, Harvey! You never know - stay here long enough and you might even get as famous as some of the people who took offence...'

I really didn't know that 'fame' had anything to do with stating opinions on songs or even replying to someone else's complaints. Dave, I didn't know that Mr. Andrews was famous, and I'm not apologizing to him because he is, but because I shot my mouth off, and apparently missed the context of his initial post. I AM sorry Harvey. I think you write fine songs (because of a Mudcat friend I now own one of your CDs) and I regret jumping to wrong conclusions.

marty dawson

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 11:25 AM

Sorry Marty - I was honestly not 'having a go'. Re-read and I think you will see that rather than suggesting fame has anything to do with the price of fish it is my pretty feeble attempt at humour!

Can we start this thread again? :-)

BTW - German cemetary at Cannock mentioned twice in two seperate, unrelated, threads on one day? (Here and 'WW1 cowards') Wierd or what?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: Lanfranc
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 06:22 PM

I hope Harvey sticks around and grabs a cookie at some time.

I've loved (and sung) his material for 30 years or more, although I learned "Hey Sandy" initially from Colin Scot, so it had already had a bit of "folk process" applied.

I must confess to altering lyrics - most singers do. Sometimes it's a lapse of memory on my part, sometimes it's a pedantic restoration of a disregarded subjunctive or other grammatical error in the original, sometimes it's a necessary (to my mind) updating or gender swap. However, I always try to make my interpretation as true as possible to my perception of the author's intention.

Harvey's songs never seem to need alteration, and sing well "out of the box", so I can see where he's coming from in his posts.

Alan

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: GUEST,harvey andrews
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 05:48 PM

Just back from germany, no sleep in 22 hours, however, this thread (and a couple of private e mails) cheers me considerably. Seems to me we're all the same tribe and I think I'll stick around and try to pick up the correct way to join in. Never was much good at joining in tho..seems to be a problem with artists in general..but then that's a lifelong study of mine as my library could show. Reading an article on autism I found that one of the ten tests was "are you often misunderstood by people" answer..obviously, yes. Autism and artistic ability have so many things in common, but autism has them in spades and out of control. Sorry.too tired to continue....

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hello Hans
From: Noreen
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 08:54 PM

Welcome back, Harvey. Pull up a cookie and join us... :0)

Noreen