BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please

Subject: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 01:49 PM

The same company which included one of my essays in one of their education books last year, has just sent me a letter asking permission to include that essay in an online database which they are going to sell to schools and libraries around the world. It will be called the "Opposing Viewpoints Resource Center" and will require an annual subscription fee.

For the book, they offered a small honorarium. For the online job, they are asking me to tell them what my fee is. It is for non-exclusive, in perpetuity inclusion. I haven't a clue what to charge them, but the gal I called said she'd work with me and let me know if I price myself out of the ballpark.

What do you think, 'Catters? How much? Do any of you have any experience with this? I tried to see what the National Writer's Union would recommend, but am having trouble accessing their info online and have had to send an email to the webmaster.

Thanks for any ideas/suggestions,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: MMario
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 01:54 PM

I would think that it should at minimum equal what they would pay to include it in their book.

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 02:16 PM

Yes, MMario, I was definitely thinking about that, but I am hoping I can set it higher, as that was only $150.

Thanks, though, I agree, that would be the minimum and I think by their asking, instead of offering, that they must be expecting higher fees.

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: Mountain Dog
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 05:15 PM

Hi, Kat

Writer's Market carries a list of suggested rates for many different types of writing, you might check the 2001 edition to see if they cover the sort of contribution you have in mind.

(BTW - As of this year, I decided to subscribe to the on-line edition of WM; costs nary a whit more than the CD-included paperback and it's updated daily - so no more post-its festooning my dog-eared volumes as editors come and go and markets change or go out of business. A very good investment if you've not already come across it yourself!)

Good luck - and congrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: Mountain Dog
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 05:43 PM

Hi, Kat

A quick follow up: Just checked my copy of NWU's Freelance Rates and Standard Practice. You might want to consider giving them a price based on the word count (just as though you were selling it to a national weekly newspaper, for example). NWU recommends a rate between $0.30 and $1.00 per word for such work.

In any case, I would aim high and trust to your contact to begin negotiations if she thinks it's out of line.

(There are those who recommend a pricing structure based on a "per drop of blood exuded through the forehead during article prep and writing", but I must tell you frankly that NWU does not officially support this approach.)

Hope this helps!

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 07:17 PM

Curmudgeon just suggested you appeal (here on Mudcat) for the advice of a intellectual property attorney. I think what 'Mudge objects to is the "in perpetuity" part -- they are getting paid every time someone buys the database or pays the yearly fee, but you (or any of the other authors) evidently won't be getting a royalty based on that usage. Standard is first North American rights. After that they should pay every time they use it. In addition, if they're publishing it, no one else will buy it from you (the "non-exclusive" part would be useless).

Check out www.writersweekly.com

Bat Goddess

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: DougR
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 07:33 PM

kat: you might PM WyoWoman about this. I don't think she has the time to spend on Mudcat that she did before taking the job with "Mother Earth News," so she might miss your post. She might have some good ideas for you as she freelanced for a spell.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 07:37 PM

Kat: It is all sound advice. First by no means sell all the rights if you can avoid it. This sounds like what they want but be open with them. If you can go for royalties for each usage rather than a flat fee. If they want to use it in purpetuity let 'em pay for it. Five percent wouldn't be out of line but chek with an attorney as BatGoddess suggested. Kindest reguards and feel free to pm me if i can be of further assistance. Neil

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 10:02 PM

Thank you all. Great advice. I would not be signing away any rights, I would own the essay forever, as far as they are concerned. Thanks, Neil.

BG & 'Mudgeon, it bothers me, too, that they will keep getting residuals and seemingly just want to pay a flat fee. They say they are "unable to track individual items on the database" so ask, "that there not be a time limit as a condition of permission."

They expect to get 7,000 annual subscribers at $1,250.00 per each, so they are not talking about chump change.

Now, the reality is, I am not that well-known. Their book was the first real published book I've been in. However, if I cave, just to get in, then I am letting down other NWU members, right? How much do I compromise?

I like the idea of tying it in with a yearly royalty, but I doubt I'd get 5% of what they net. I know they will probably have hundreds of authors on there. I also know that some of them are very well known entities who don't give this stuff away. I had an opposing viewpoint, across the page from Utah's Senator Orrin Hatch, in the book, for instance.

Oy! Do I need an agent? *swelled head**BG**

I will send Wyo Woman an email, thanks, Doug. MtnDog, I didn't get a new Writer's Marrket this year and am glad to hear that they've got it online. I'll probably subscribe. Also thanks so much for checking NWU's new rates. Even the webmaster didn't know why I couldn't get in. At those rates, I could charge anywhere from $372 or so up to about $1,250, so that at least gives me an idea.

This all kind of fell in my lap. It was spotted by them, 3 years ago, in the Liberal Opinion, they contacted me to include it in the book, I found out it's been quoted elsewhere and now this. I am very grateful for the recognition and validation (me with only a GED, even!**BG), but I also don't want to miss being included in this project.

Okay, I've rambled enough! Thanks very much, I'll go do some more homework and keep ya posted.

Thanks!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 04:39 PM

Juts thought you all might like to read the "advice" the union person sent me:

The rule of thumd is to ask for up to 1/2 of the fee you received for the original article. However, that is usually tied to a specific time period, to be renegotiated w/in a year or two. To ask for perpetual use should be compensated with that in mind.

Really helpful, hah! I am glad I asked Mudcatters first!!

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: Mountain Dog
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 05:22 PM

Two thoughts: First, since the rights you'd be giving away are in perpetuity, just take the amount you received for the first article...and multiply it by 50% of eternity!

Second, report this dolt to the shop steward at NWU...

Seriously, ask for what you truly feel it's worth - as you know, it's hard enough to try to make a living from wordsmithing without selling yourself short! Good luck and continued success to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 04:15 PM

Well, I called them back, told them I'd been reading some surveys, talkign to other writers, etc. and that because they wanted to have it available in perpetuity, my best shot would have to be $1 per word, which would be over $1200.

She told me they didn't mean in perpetuity, that the plan is for up to 5 years. (Funny 'cause their letter says they can't track individual items, so ask that there not be a condition of time.) She also said they will not include anything priced over $500.

So, I may be a fool, but I told her I'd go for it for $500, plus an agreement to renegotiate IF they continue to use it after five years, which she said would get by them okay.

Thanks very much and I'll let you know how it turns out! Maybe this will help finance a Getaway trip!

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: jeffp
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 04:18 PM

Sounds pretty cool, kat!

jeffp

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 04:37 PM

From what I know about online operations, you are lucky that they are offering you actual cash money--online enterprises are often notoriously shortlived, and oftentimes, they have little or no money to work with.

A lot of times, you do better by writing something original for them and allowing them to buy it outright. As a writer, you will also look a bit better, since you can create a piece that will complement or contrast, or comment on the other material that is used--

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 04:53 PM

Yeah, M. Ted, I know it does seem fortunate, but remember this is not an open access database they are creating; they will be selling subscriptions at $1,250 a pop and expect to sell at least 7,000 of those, so they are talking about quite a bit of money on an annual basis.

Funny that you should suggest writing an original piece which might oppose that of another; that's exactly why they picked my piece up. The book it was used in is Violence in the Media: Current Controversies, my viewpoint was used opposite of Senator Hatch's. My original article can be read HERE, but for some reason the type is set huge, so be forwarned. Also, they did a very small amount of editing, but it's very close to the original.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: Burke
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 05:55 PM

I'm sitting out here as a potential purchaser (a librarian) of the product your publisher is talking about. In a quick search I could not find anything that looks like the product, if you tell me the publisher I'll have better luck. The reality is that no one, authors, publishers, or librarians knows how these things should be priced. In the traditional economy you sold it to the publisher or got royalites, they edited, printed & sold, we bought & made it available to any of our users who might have use for it. It could sit there & never get used or it could circulate over & over. The publisers paid you & priced the book based on their past experience with how many copies in this series are usually sold.

You don't like the idea of it being sold over & over without fair payment. On the library side we don't like the idea of paying over & over for something we used to buy once & put on the shelves. We do like having reference materials in electronic versions because of the ease of getting through lots of material quickly. The publisher has a big upfront investment in taking this book, presumably combined it with others of a like nature, and turning it into a useful database for libraries to purchase. They have the costs of servers, etc. to make it available. They also have some risk costs because if it's not a good product both in content and the ease of use we won't buy it. Finally they are also undertaking to 'storage' costs that libraries have traditionally borne & that's why they want the 'perpetual' use.

I can't say what you should charge but if your publisher thinks they'll get 7,000 subscriptions at $1250, they are on something. The only way to approach that number is by saturating the secondary school market. It's going to have to be one great product for high schools to be willing to pay that kind of money for it. More likely there will be state wide & other consortial purchases that will take the price down to well under $1000 per institution. Then remember that your contribution is one article in one book that's being combined with a number of other books. Do you have any idea how many are involved? What proportion of the overall database will your contribution comprise?

I think the idea of a royalty to you based on usage is good. Maybe in a few years everyone will have a better handle on these things & guidelines will be reasonable & realistic. Right now we get all kinds of usage statistics about the products we buy & I can tell you we don't really have a clue what they really tell us. What's it mean that an article is accessed? Was it glanced at & further ignored, read on the screen, downloaded or printed for later use? There's a limit to what they can tell is happening.

Add to all this that the ordinary person using this stuff thinks it all free!

Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: Mountain Dog
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 06:21 PM

Well done, Kat! At a lease-rate of $100/year, it sounds like a reasonable transaction. I would suggest getting the publisher's stated willingness to "renegotiate after 5 years" in writing, however. (Word of mouth agreements and publisher's memories have a tendency to be worth the square root of you-know-what-all...)

Again, congratulations.

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: Burke
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 06:30 PM

A quick follow-up since I did not see kat's last message before I started writing.

The publisher of your series, Greenhaven Press, is now owned by Gale Group. There are about 50 titles in the series, published since 1995. Your book had 27 articles. The books sell for $20 in paper $31 hardcover.

If you do the math you'll find $1250 is asking the schools & libraries to buy every volume every year, instead of the current 8-10 or so, if we actully buy every volume in the series.

The company does have deep pockets & is well established so there probably is a certain ready market for it. 7000 still sounds like a lot even at a lower price.

My library does not buy the series, but we do get the comparable "Taking Sides."

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: WyoWoman
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 10:02 PM

Sorry it's taken me a while to get back to this. I see it from both sides. As a writer, I want to get -- and want other writers to get -- top dollar for the work. As an editor, I also know the need to toe the bottom line, and the insanity of trying to keep track of multiple-media pieces, particularly over a period of time. We just don't have the staff and resources to do that. So, we buy all rights, but not exclusive rights. We do require that you not publish the same work elsewhere for a period of time after the piece comes out in our magazine (basically while the magazine is on the stands), then you can do with it what you will. We have other requirements as well, and I can look them up when I'm in the office, if anyone needs to know.

When I was writing for the dot-commies, I was making $1 a word, sometimes $1.5o a word, and I was writing for some of the top sites. However, THEY'RE OUT OF BUSINESS NOW, for the most part.

So ... we're not paying as much as i'd like to pay, but we're determined to keep our magazine going and making the contribution it can make to life on the planet, even if we have to low-ball on the pay scale. And if I were a freelance writer selling to us, I'd negotiate for the highest amount I could, write whatever I was interested in for whatever the magazine could afford to pay me and then try to rework the same material for as many different publications as I possibly could. I'm convinced that multiple sales is the only route to real success as a freelance magazine writer. I have no idea what the key to success as a book author is, not having done that...

Hope this helps,

ww

Subject: RE: BS: Writer's Rates Advice Needed, please
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 10:57 PM

Thanks, Mtn Dog, I haven't thought of it as a sort of lease per year perspective. And, I definitely will get it in writing. I was in sales long enough, paid on collections, that I never do anything without getting it in writing.:-)

Burke, thank you. You bring up many points that most of us wouldn't even know about. I, too, hope in a few years it will be better sorted and more standardised.

WyoWoman, thanks, I know you've been incredibly busy. It does helps to know how you are doing it there and also when you were freelance. I ran the $1 per word by them and it was a definite no go.

Above all, I think it is important that everyone involved in this type of thing keep talking about it and trying to work it out. No keeping rates secret or anything, we need to share as much information as possible in order for everyone to have a place at the table when it gets ironed out.

Thanks, very much.

kat