Help: Menopause. Effect on the voice?

Subject: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Deni
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 02:13 AM

I was reading that the menapause can affect the voice. Anyone noticed any problems? How do you overcome them? D

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 02:48 AM

It didn't affect me that much, Deni. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Llanfair
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 04:00 AM

It's essential to keep the throat well lubricated.....alcohol works very well!!!!
Seriously, I noticed more changes when I stopped smoking 2 years ago, I can sing a tone or two higher now. I think there is a little drying out, but that is easily dealt with,
Cheers, Bron.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Jim Hancock
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 04:45 AM

Whatever the solution to dry vocal chords is it's not alcohol, it tightens up the vocal chords, consider what it does to other bits of the anatomy for a comparison. I find acidic fruit juices etc. to be less than beneficial also. Try tomato juice or drinks of similar consitancy. all the best jim

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 08:39 AM

The screaming tantrums tend to leave me a little raspy but other than that...

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: nutty
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 09:43 AM

I suppose the voice should really get deeper as there is a depleted amount of female hormones in the body ????

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 11:19 AM

hhmmm, come to think of it, I dont remember when I had a period. When I quit smoking, I noticed that my voice had relaxed and I could sing a bit lower than before. Now, since te operation, I never know if I can sing at all.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 12:12 PM

I don't think the hormone changes will affect the larynx as it's fully grown: it won't start to shrink. (On the other hand, you may get hairier legs!) There's always HRT, if that's suitable for you. Ask you doctor, s/he probably won't have a clue though.

Come on. there must be some post-menopausal singers on the 'Cat--we chaps promis not to look at your names when we read your posts!

Steve

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:11 PM

1. Almost all post-menopausal women should take replacement hormones. Check with your doctor and read reliable literature, and you'll see. Hormones keep many parts of your body young, and probably the voice, too.

2. Keep singing. Sing around the house and in the shower.

3. Drink water and/or fruit juice. Alcohol, chocolate and caffeine dry your throat up.

4. Heredity has something to do with it. My mother had a sweet, girlish voice till age 75. A friend of mine, on the other hand, had an old woman's voice at 60.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: MMario
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:33 PM

Now going through my third generation of menapausal woman in my family- haven't heard any of them complain about effects on their voices - and several sing - at least for pleasure.

On the other hand the men in the family definately feel that menapause adds a certain "edge" to the ladies voices. One we have all learned to avoid in one way or another.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Fiolar
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:49 PM

I don't know about the "menapause" but the "menopause" does have some bodily effects. :-)

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Llanfair
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 05:23 PM

I am amazed by the number of men who have responded to this thread, and not always with any semblance of understanding or empathy.
Guest, HRT is not the cure-all that women are led to believe. Not enough work is done to ensure the right dosage for each person, and it does not allow the natural hormone substitutes to kick in.
And what happens when you stop taking it?
It makes me cross when people make fun of a very natural phase in a woman's life, without knowing how it feels.
I am 53.
Bron.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 06:45 PM

Sorry I made light of a difficult situation for women, Bron. Just being a smart-ass.

DougR

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: vectis
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 08:27 PM

My voice has deepened and improved since the menopause. My husband claims it is the cigarettes, whiskey and beer but I reckon it's age. I don't take HRT but may go on it sometime to protect my bones.
I think that if you're noticing changes you don't like get medical help/advice. If, like me, you relish the freedom and are enjoying the changes, then why muck up a good thing?

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 10:27 PM

I think I hear the difference in Joan Baez's voice. That amazing 20 year old's voice just isn't there now. She does a nice job these days, but that voice when I saw her open a show for Bob Gibson at the Gate Of Horn folk nightclub in Chicago--1959---------she was truly spectacular. And Lauren Bacall's voice is more husky now. It's a natural progression for many/some I suspect. But those of us who recorded when we were young can sure HEAR the difference. Jean Redpath's voice seems to be more expressive now than when she showed up unannounced at the first University Of Chicago Folk Festival in 1961. Then again, Jean Ritchie has the same lovely voice she had when she made her ten-inch LP for Elektra called "Jean Ritchie sings the traditional songs of her Kentucky mountain family". I guess the difference can be found in our genes. (Or should I say our JEANS.) pun intended !!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Deni
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 12:36 AM

Where have all the women gone? when I worked on a radio prog about the menopause - sorry about the spelling before - the phone lines were screaming with desperate calls frm women. but here it really seems that the men are the new women, as it said in an earlier thread. Seriously though, I've had a low voice since I was eight or nine and now I'm, 39 forever, I just wondered if I'd eventualy end up a bass-baritone!!!! D

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: balladeer
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 12:42 AM

I have found a product called Hydrasense very helpful. Sold over the counter at drugstores, it's desalinated sea water under pressure. You squirt it up your nose and it helps rehydrate and replace the fluids your sinuses stop producing so much of post-fifty. I had lost my voice altogether, then recovered it partially but unpredictably. Now it's the best voice I've ever had, though significantly plummier than when I was a girl. I just used it to record my debut CD (which, BTW, will be released at the Free Times Cafe in Toronto on October 27th). Good luck and good health!

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 01:53 AM

As long as you keep it lubricated and excercised, it shouldn't be a problem. If you are worried about HRT for Osteo reasons, drink milk. Nice and thick, it coats the throat, and full of calcium, it will keep your bones doing OK.

Little old ladies are usually afraid to open their mouths and sing properly, because their teeth fall out. Those who sing with a quavery voice, probably don't sing much at all... Listen to Gracie Fields or Vera Lynn (pause to spit over left shoulder) - their voices are/were just as powerful in 1970's as they were in the 1940's. Vera is just as strong now, 20 years after that!

Don't take up smoking, or try and give up if you do already. Avoid singing in smoky bars/houses (the Roy Castle/lung cancer thing - taking deep breaths of other smoke is as bad as doing it yourself). Take it easy on the alcohol, particularly the rough stuff like scotch or gin - that's why Lauren Bacall sounds the way she does - I found a half and half mix of good port and brandy is a nice lubricant, and such a pretty colour.

Your voice might deepen a little, but that's just normal, because as with everything, things take a little longer to bounce back, elasticity goes in all things..... Mine went a bit plummy when I hit puberty.... with practice I can still hit the top B's and C's (that's 2 octaves above middle C) I was getting easily 10 - 15 years ago, but it gets harder the less I do it.

Regular excercise for your larynx is good too, sing regularly, join a choir or a band, or a club where you can sing along. Or just set aside an afternoon each week where you do nothing but sing for 3 hours.

Hope this has been helpful - I'm waiting for mine, reckon I've got another 5 - 8 years to go.....

LTS

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Mudlark
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 02:16 AM

I lost my singing voice when menopause hit....no wonder I was so bitchy for a while. I quit performing, quit even playing my guitar for a long time, but I never quit singing...while doing dishes, in the shower, whenever. And lo and behold, in a year or so it came back. It's deeper now, and range is a tad more limited. But it has gained tremendously in power and strength....when I was younger I had no volume at all...now I can really belt a song out, if needed.

I researched HRT exhaustively and (so far, at least) have decided to go with the finding that taking calcium/magnesium (2:1 ratio, 1000 mg cal./500 mg mag) plus regular load bearing exercise like walking briskly is better protection for bones than anything else, including HRT. And with no bad side effects and lots of good ones.

In a culture that fears age, menopause is a bugbear.....wrong, all wrong. Transition may be difficult, more for some than others, but ultimately it is all about growth and freedom and maturity in the best sense of the word. You go girl!.......just keep singing!

Nancy

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 02:43 AM

I haven't noticed the pausing of men to have any effect on my voice:-) and I went through it fairly early late 30's/early 40's) partly from being spayed when even younger (26). The meds I take for my heart do dry me out a bit, but I also use a saline spray up my nose which helps; over here it's called "Ocean Spray" but the generic is the same stuff and just as good. I agree with the advice to use your voice in singing etc. as much as possible without straining it. Since I've begun to sing regularly for the first time in years, I've noticed my vioce growing stronger and improving, kind of like tuning up an old car that sat in a weed patch. Get the carbs cleaned out, gap the points proper, chang the plugs and listen to that baby hum.**BG**

The best thing you can do for your bones, besides the exeeercises noted above, is not drink any carbonated drinks, i.e. sodas. The carbonation leaches calcium from your bones.

I didn't have much difficulty, just a few months of night sweats and sleeplessness. I did tincture of dandelion root and motherwort in a small bit of spring water, 4-5 times per day and it really got me through the rough patches. I used those herbs off and on for about 2 years.

After researching and writing a piece on where the brand drug "Premarin" came from, pregnant mares' urine, I urged every woman I knew to refuse to use it because of the cruelty and, demand synthetics or other natural alternatives. Fortunately, it seems this has become more mainstream.

I highly recommned Susan Weed's book, Menopausal Years, The Wise Womens' Way.

Men go through menopause(1) / menopause (2) too, it's just not as recognised or talked about.

Good luck,

kat

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 04:40 AM

Yes, I noticed the high proportion of men on this thread: I suppose it's because we feel duty-bound to discuss a subject that was not open for discussion by our fathers andf grandfathers--and indeed by our mothers and grandmothers. And because of the high proportion of smart-arses as well ...

If you're concerned about osteoporosis (and you should be, in this man's opinion), you need to start young--get your young teenager daughters into the healthy excercise habit, make them walk to the shops ... OK, I'll get off my male soap-box!

I will pass on this observation, though: since Sue had her hysterectomy and went on to two HRT patches a week, instead of a few fraught days once a month, we now get two fraught evenings every week!

Steve

P.S. And she still can't sing for toffee!

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Peg
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 09:14 AM

thanks to those who disagree that hormone replacement therapy is always trhe solution to problems of menopause. It carries its own risks and problems and is known for some bad side effects in some women.

There are a great many holistic solutions to deal with menopause and I would think some of these would help any vocal problems too.

Susan Weed's book "A Wise Woman's Herbal fo the Menopausal Years" offers many herbal remedies for the same problems meant to be helped by HRT; but with NO risks or side effects.

There is also a great book called "Creative Menopause" with lots of meditations, exercises and tips for healthier living.

The impetus behind pushing HRT on every menopausal woman is not all that different from the assumption that a hysterectomy is the most effective way to solve "female problems." IMHO.

Peg

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: MMario
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 09:21 AM

I am certainly sorry if my comments were in any way taken to trivialize the effects of menopause on women. However I would like to point out that a women going through menopause usually effects a number of other people then herself. It is a difficult thing for men to understand -(heck - we don't do to good a job understanding much about women!) and as I said I am now watching my third generation of women in my family pass through menopause - in a family that undergoes both early onset and protracted duration. (twenty some odd years for both my grandmother and mother)

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Llanfair
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 09:50 AM

That's much better!!! My symptoms are easing now, after almost two years. Just remember that it does pass, and it is important to look after yourself, and deal with each discomfort as it arises, using any form of therapy that suits YOU.
Doctors and other therapists cannot know how you feel, so you have to tell them, and don't be fobbed off with universal panacaea to give them a quiet life.
Cheers, Bron.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Bert
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 12:37 PM

And be careful with the calcium supplements too, they can cause kidney stones.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From:
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 07:21 PM

I would definitely see a naturopath if unpleasant symptoms are experienced. I think the default is supposed to be fairly easy...and wonder how many problems are really dietary...particularly now our phobia about fats...better to develop a phobia about white flour and sugar (which I keep trying to do), eat no artificially produced fats, and eat a certain amount of olive oil, flaxseed oil, walnut oil, BUTTER, CREAM and CHOCOLATE and COCONUT. Better yet all at once. A whole lot of ailments, particularly surrounding the hormonal system, are affected by fatty acids, and an excess of insulin/sugar in the blood. And get some sunshine and fresh air. Lack of sunshine and vitamin D is linked to osteoporosis. mg

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 08:38 PM

53 sounds good, Bron; I'll be there this year.

HRT -- I use because heart problems run in my family. It is NOT recommended if you have cancer in yours.

and research, research, research before you take it -- if you have a doctor trying to ram it down your throat, change doctors.

the heavy allergens where I live now are a much worse problem for my voice.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: GUEST,b;t
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 09:21 PM

It's really wonderful to read postings from women about this subject--the Mudcat sometimes seems to be dominated by a male perspective and/or opinions--I'm turning 50 this year and began to have premenopausal symptoms when I was in my mid-40s, mostly due to stress. I haven't noticed any vocal problems or changes, except feeling more insecure about singing in public, which seems more related to having less time than premenopause. I think that my voice changes with how much loving care I invest in it, like everything else. When I don't sing very much, my voice sounds rusty; when I sing daily, warm-up with scales (I think there was a great thread on how to warmup vocally not too long ago), and stop being so damn self-critical, my voice sounds more relaxed. It wouldn't surprise me if menopause had an impact, although I think it would be based on both hormonal and emotional changes. A voice is the sound of the soul, and during menopause, one's soul goes through quite a transformation.

blt

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From:
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 10:31 PM

I am a 58 year old woman who has been singing most of her life. The only thing different about my voice now is that I use it to say just about anything to anybody! Age is a wonderful gift, especially to inhibitions. I still sing regularly with two other women. We sing and play in a bar in Newport, RI, and have a great time. My voice is lower, but then, it always was low. We do bluegrass and old-timey music, with fiddle, guitar, and banjo. And yes, I do HRT and lots of tofu. Diana

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Deni
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 01:12 AM

Lots of women there! Kidney stones,dry nasal passages. Lots to look forward too. But some of the men are sounding positively supportive. Good on you chaps, we'll support you if you get prostate troubles. Cheers all. some really good points.

Deni

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: harriet
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 10:09 AM

I never had a problem, but then again, some people say I never had a voice to begin with.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:22 PM

Yep, heard of
along with other drynesses
50% of women have some menopausal symptoms, 30% prety bad
I have lived through 2 of the latter,
irrationality (more than the norm) is another symptom, and how do you reason with irrationality .... viz "OH you can't blame it on that!" kind of killer argument.
I usually counsel younger people to mug-up on the subject before it happens - especially men - they won't know what hit them otherwise. Or when.
I didn't.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Fortunato
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 01:09 PM

Here's something interesting on this topic:
Soy product intake and hot flashes in Japanese women: results from a community-based prospective study.
Nagata C, Takatsuka N, Kawakami N, Shimizu H.
Department of Public Health, Gifu University School of Medicine, Gifu, Japan.
The association between soy product intake and the occurrence of hot flashes was examined in a cohort of 1,106 female residents of Takayama, Gifu, JAPAN: The women were aged 35-54 years and premenopausal at their entry into the study in 1992. Diet, including intake of soy products and isoflavones, was assessed by means of a validated semiquantitative food frequency questionnaire atstudy entry. A follow-up mail questionnaire asking about experiences of hot flashes was sent in 1998. During the 6 years of the study period, 101 women had new moderate or severe hot flashes according to the Kupperman test of menopausal distress. After data were controlled for age, total energy intake, and menopausal status, hot flashes were significantly inversely associated with consumption of soy products in terms of both total amount (highest tertile of soy product intake(g/day) vs. lowest: hazard ratio = 0.47; 95% confidence interval: 0.28, 0.79; p for trend = 0.005) and isoflavone intake (highest tertile of isoflavone intake (mg/day) vs. lowest: hazard ratio = 0.42; 95% confidence interval: 0.25, 0.72; p for trend = 0.002). These data suggest that consumption of soy products has a protective effect against hot flashes. PMID: 11296152 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
This from National Institutes of Health
PubMED:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Shall
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 03:00 PM

It is so good to read feed back about the NORMAL funtion in an older womans life. Menopause is not a disease. I have to be honest at 51 years old.....it is a hot time in the city, my body is hot and sweaty. The heat slowly creeps up on me and then hits me with a firebolt, lasting until my hair is soaking wet. Yuck. My band partners (all men) and friends have noticed the big drips of sweat dropping off my nose on to the fiddle. The question of the day seems to be not what tune we are going to do but "Hey Shar, are you okay? Your face is really red.You look damn hot!" I am holding on for dear life. Don't dare drink beer and wine, adding fuel to the fire. My poor hubby of 32 years is roaming around the house late at night looking for me, I am trying to find a cool dry place to bed down, NAKED. I have waited all these years to expereince the true "HOT FLASH". I Just finished reading a very interesting book by John R. Lee, M.D. and Virginia Hopkins. "What Your Doctor May Not Tell You about Menopause.The breakthrough book on NATURAL PROGESTERONE." VErrrrrry intersting. I checked out the health food store and found Pro-Gest body creme, on special, a Twin pack of 2oz tubes for $39.00. The company's name is "Emerita", the name is derived from the Latin, meaning "A woman who has achieved a place of honor". I am going to check out their web site: www.transitionsforhealth.com. Shar

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Llanfair
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 03:43 PM

Shall, this, too, will pass! I moved the bed to the window, and invested in a fan, a big one. The dripping face is a phenomenon no-one talks about, and the sweat comes from UNDER the eyes, so sweatbands are useless!!
When the flushes (that's what we call them in the UK, though yours is much more expressive) begin, they seem to start just above my elbows, and radiate from there. They aren't so bad now.
I never wear polyester, or any non-natural fibres, and nylon raincoats are a no-no....I discovered the true meaning of Boil-in-the-Bag wearing one of those!!!!!!
Oh, one last thing, the flushes occur more when the bladder is full. I have no idea why.
Cheers, Bron.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 09:25 AM

Soy Sauce contains phyto oestrogens (spelling?) so do tomatoes.
I never saw a serious study that demonstrated that the phyto variety had similar effects.
The woman I tried to help was so negative - especially during episodes (and phases thereof) of HRT I never got to see if soy and soya were any use.
HRT is another minefield, on some people it works wonders, on some you have to try three formulations, some people give-up on it - especially negative people.
I have seen the same conflicting reports on the male version of HRT
good luck

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Shall
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 11:20 AM

Thank you for the impute fellow Mudcatters. I will take more notice of when my wonderful occurance drop in. I have noticed that smoking a fag/Cig. encourages the heat up. Soooooo.... I am cutting back, with a goal to quit smoking. It is tough when the entire band lights up. But I know in the long run I'll be far better off. I tried the soy suppliment...no noticable relief. I also have to watch the estrogen intake due to breast cancer issues.I am trying to drink more water, flushing out the impurities, or maybe becoming a "hot spring", rent myself out as a spa! I like tomatoes but have found that I have to be careful, seems eggplant, potatoes and tomatoes make my joints ache...nightshades I do beleive. The boiling bag line was perfect! Be there, done that. Cotton is the fabric of choice, well next to no clothing at all. I told my husband I am in training to be a nudie. Cool and calm (hah) in West Virginia....Shar

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Robin2
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 10:37 PM

gee, ladies, this subject is great to read!
I woke up one morning(really) and discovered I was a baritone! But I like my voice better, before it seemed thin, now I seem to be able to sing with more power (but with a more limited range).
I finally looked up "menopause symptoms" on the 'net, (i'm 47), and realized a lot of what's going on with me is pre-menopausal stuff. I feel relieved to be reaching this stage of my life, and I appreciate hearing from other catters that are going through it!
Robin

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Ferrara
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 09:56 AM

Well, I'm 59 now, had a late menopause, but it's hard to separate the effects of menopause from the effects of the transplant drugs, which include prednisone.

My voice has been better since the transplant, and it's getting stronger, clearer and warmer every year. My range is not any lower, in fact I'm reaching high and low notes more easily. But one of my meds does in fact thicken the vocal chords.

It's hard to pinpoint when menopause began for me. The labs were contradictory. But I've been definitely menopausal for at least the last two years; my voice just keeps getting better.

LLanfair, thanks for mentioning the fact that a full bladder makes it worse. I agree. I talked this over with my doctor. Being a man, he didn't mention menopause at all, but he told me I was experiencing "cholinergic" symptoms. They include a sharp feeling of heat throughout the body, as well as a crazy "antsy-ness". Stress of any kind can cause cholinergic symptoms, he said. They're sometimes related to hives. So, like most everybody else here, I'd say to keep yourself hydrated; in addition, as soon as you start feeling you have to go to the bathroom, do so if it's practical. Don't wait, it makes everything worse. Very strange but true.

Has anyone heard anything about WHY menopause would affect a woman's voice? What is the mechanism?

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Alice
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 10:10 AM

Before we reach menopause, we women are all premenopausal. The stage is called "perimenopause" when we begin to lose the estrogen production connected to ovulation. I haven't noticed any changes to the range of my voice. I really believe range is more affected by how you use and take care of your voice, but each person's experience is unique. I, too, notice that I've grown more of a backbone, figuratively, and have more courage to stand up for myself and my opinions.

Mr. Red, your comment of "irrationality (more than the norm) is another symptom," shows just how much women are still labeled with prejudicial and false stereotypes. Being irrational has nothing to do with gender, but it is a stereotype of women that has been perpetuated for a very long time, continues to be stated, joked about, or believed without question, regardless of the facts. I have known just as many men to be irrational as I've known women to be.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: balladeer
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 04:55 PM

Ferrara, decrease in "female" hormones, increase in "male."

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: GUEST,Ickle dorritt
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 05:19 PM

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: GUEST,Ickle Dorritt
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 05:22 PM

I tell you what -you lot keep worrying about your voices -I'll worry about my sex life. Ickle (still hanging in at 45)

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 08:01 PM

Deni.

As a perimenopausal singer, and from what I have been told by friends who sing and who have gone through the whole shebang, it can have differing effects on differing women.

For a friend of mine who sings Irish music locally here in the DC area, but who was operatically trained, she says that she has noticed her midrange failing on her sooner than in earlier years.

For me, I have noticed a lowering of my range, though not a lessening (I have a lower lowest note, and a lower highest note, but still have my same approximate slightly less than 3 octaves).

I have noticed that some female singers over a certain age tend not to be able to project as they once did in youth, though I do not know if it is menopausal in origin. As an example, Dinah Shore lost a great deal of her oomph during her talk show years, but had quite a lot more control and power when she was younger (and boy-howdy, am I showing my age on that one!)

I think that there is no hard and fast answer here. What may happen to one woman may never occur for another. It would probably be best for each of us to wait and see what our personal experience is, and then figure it out from there. :D

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Judy Predmore
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 10:18 PM

Lots of great info. Don't thread creep just because I'm going to vent one of my pet peeves: I have two words to say about how male hormones can make men irrational & unsuited for positions of responsibility: Bill, Clinton. (And I'm a flaming liberal...)

Now back to all that useful info & feedback from all ages & genders...

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 02:16 PM

Alice

Sorry to confuse
I was referring to one person and the relative "irrationalities" before and after, particularly with HRT.

It is a common observation that a lot of divorces in long term marriages get blamed on the outward symptoms of menopause.
In my limited experience it menopause tends to accentuate resident characteristics.
I knew one lass who had no problems, she was placid and a really nice person. I make the connection.
I've known irrational men, but most of the gender sniping is about differences that clearly exist. Women call it intuition men have a different take on it - by and large.
Vivre la difference (notice the gender there?)

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Bluegrass Girl
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 03:59 PM

Really enjoyed this thread! My opinion (and have been through the dreaded MP) -- it's all a matter of attitude!

Hot Flashes were a lot like orgasms -- but they were from the waist up this time. Embrace life in all its forms and at all ages.

Pleased to report (at 61) that this is the "best age to be" -- a thought I've had through all the ages.

Do consider the positive points when looking into HRT. I take hormones -- although they did stop those lovely flashes!

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Deni
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 05:43 AM

This news from Bluegrass Girl has to be worth a refresh.

'Hot Flashes were a lot like orgasms -- but they were from the waist up this time. Embrace life in all its forms and at all ages.'

Still dreading the menopause after hearing that? I don't think so!

D

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Kaleea
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:44 AM

How about an opinion from a voice instructor? Just as menopause differs from woman to woman, the effects on the voice differ. What I have ascertained is that when one is a properly trained vocalist--trained in the "Belle Conto" method which is the preferred method in most of the world, one has an instrument which is open and full, and muscles which are strong and resilient. If the vocal folds (they are actually folds of tissue, not "chords" or "cords") of a trained vocalist are well excercised on a regular basis throughout one's singing life, one will not experience tremendously noticeable effects of menopause, providing, of course, that one takes care to ensure proper nutrition, etc. and a healthy lifestyle. Alcohol and smoking (to include second hand smoke!) are quite damaging to the vocal folds whether one is 20 or 60, as are pollution and many everyday chemicals and cleaning solutions. I have had female voice students who have come to me after they retired to seek the vocal training they always wanted but never had the opportunity for. These women have enjoyed beautiful singing voices-provided that the talent was inherently there. Our larynx moves over the years and that is why we hear the noticeable difference from earlier to later decades, in addition to other health situations, of course. In summation, menopause need have no noticeable effect upon your voice if you are healthy and vocalize regularly. The most important thing you can do is to seek proper vocal instruction no matter what your age.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 01:27 AM

Sorry, couple of phrases there I didn't recognise - sex life and orgasms..... can anyone remind me what these are please??!!!

*BG*

LTS

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Deni
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 04:58 AM

Thanks to the voice coach. I wish I could have my voice trained as i've been having problems on and off for two years, due, I've been told to relaxed vocal folds. I have never yet found a teacher I can feel comfortable with.

To LTS. Sex is where the audience claps and an orgasm is where you get a standing ovation!

Cheers D

D

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Deni
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 04:59 AM

Thanks to the voice coach. I wish I could have my voice trained as i've been having problems on and off for two years, due, I've been told to relaxed vocal folds. I have never yet found a teacher I can feel comfortable with.

To LTS. Sex is what you get when the audience claps and an orgasm is a standing ovation!

Cheers D

D

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 06:41 PM

There is always Textual Intercourse
& yes it was good for me

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Jennyldb
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 07:12 PM

Hello
Im new to Mudcat and this is my first posting :)
Im 20 so no where near menopause yet (i hope!). Thought id have a look at some of the science stuff i have access to (Medline). Below are a few links to some interesting pages on the web and the sciency text below that is from a medical journal article. It would appear that there have been 25 papers published on the effects of menopause and the voice. None of them are available in full text on the web but if anyone would like a list of the citations so they can have a look in the library then email me and I will send them.

On the subject of HRT, bone density decreases at about 2% per year for a number of years after the menopause. HRT prevents this happening which is obviously good but the side effects and risks for breast cancer and cardiovascular disease make it less appealing. Everyone has to weigh up the risks and benefits for themselves. HRT is often recommended for women with premature menopause as they lose more bone density because of the longer time without oestrogen.

hopefully my generation of doctors will be more understanding and not shove things down peoples' throats so much. They are trying to change us....

Very interesting thread. Im interested performing arts medicine and this is sonething id not thought of before.

http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/vastavox/2002-February/000280.html

http://www.asha.org/about/publications/leader-online/archives/2002/f020723.htm

http://www.shef.ac.uk/janedavidson/voiceproject.html

The female voice evolves from childhood to menopause, under the varied influences of estrogens, progesterone, and testosterone. These hormones are the dominant factor in determining voice changes throughout life.

For example, a woman's voice always develops masculine characteristics after an injection of testosterone. Such a change is irreversible.

Voice is characterized by its intensity, frequency, and harmonics. The harmonics are hormonally dependent. This is illustrated by the changes that occur during male and female puberty: In the female, the impact of estrogens at puberty, in concert with progesterone, produces the characteristics of the female voice, with a fundamental frequency one third lower than that of a child.

Vocal professionals are particularly affected by changes in the voice and In a study of 100 menopausal women, 17 presented with a menopausal vocal syndrome. To rehabilitate their voices, and thus their professional lives, patients were prescribed hormone replacement therapy and multi-vitamins. All 97 women showed signs of vocal muscle atrophy, reduction in the thickness of the mucosa and reduced mobility in the cricoarytenoid joint. Multi-factorial therapy (hormone replacement therapy and multi-vitamins) has to be individually adjusted to each case depending on body type, vocal needs, and other factors.

Women experience more frequent problems with voice emission, voice control and reaching their highest registers after menopause.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Joybell
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 07:58 PM

This is a great thread, within a great community. I'm so glad I came here.
My own experiences with menopause/ageing are that my soprano voice is definitly getting a bit shakier and a bit thinner. I have gained a few of low notes and friends say my voice is more expressive. I love them for it. The problem of dryness, for me, is complicated by a strange, not terminal, but slowly degenerative condition called "Sjogren's Syndrome". It affects all the moisture producing tissues of the body like joint linings, eyes, and mucus membranes in the mouth, throat and airways. Asthma is a side effect. Cigarette smoke is life-threatening.
Anyway to get to the point of dryness and the hoarse throat that accompanies it - One tip I've found that helps is - Throat clearing is best done by saying "HUH" several times. This brings your vocal chords together in the same way but is less damaging.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: rich-joy
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 11:23 PM

I'm 52 now and in the thick of The Great Mental Pause!!
My singing voice has dropped - but over at least the last 5-7 years. I think it's better, more fuller, but I haven't got the same flexibility as I had - for ornamentation e.g., but, that could also be coz I don't use it as much as I used to!!
The Hot Flushes (sorry, Power Surges!) are still a bugga - despite taking Remifemin - and the heat comes from the IN side, so fans etc are only a slight help, but, most people seem to understand what's happening to me and make sympathetic jokes!! And I'm damned if I'll give up eating curries and garlic and ginger and good things like that!!!
I do get distraught around period time (much more than when I actually HAD them!!!) and Life gets on top of me for a few days, then it clears and I wonder : what the hell THAT was all about!!!

One of the worst aspects is, I think, loss of memory - esp. for SONG words - that is a REAL BASTARD - I've lost confidence in performing without words now, which changes your whole performance and delivery of a song.

We won't even mention the weight gain thing though ...
HOW many years does this Change last?????????

Cheers!
R-J

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Kaleea
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 12:06 AM

Gentlemen--you may be so kind as to consider that this is, indeed a serious subject for many professional Musicians.
    As a Vocal Music Educator, I have long been studying the voice, and many vocal techniques & treatises. Most women experience changes in their voices with the onset of puberty. Their voices may become higher or lower, and the teenage years may bring about the common breathiness or the voice which sounds like there is alot of "air" in the voice. When the menstrual cycle comes, this may also affect the female voice . Some women experience a noticable change around/during the time of menopause. Good vocal training can help one learn to vocalize properly to keep problems from happening, or at least to diminish vocal problems.       Alcohol is VERY damaging to the vocal folds--aka vocal "chords/cords" which are not cords, nor even chord like, but actual folds of tissue. HOT or COLD beverages & extreme temperatures can cause vocal folds not work properly, and such things as chemical poisons like tobacco smoke, cleaning solutions, perfumes, & many other things can & will cause permanent damage like alcohol.   The healthy woman with a well trained singing voice often peaks vocally around her early-mid 20's, & the voice will never sound quite this glorious again, while a healthy man may continue to sing very well, long afterward. This is true of the trained voice. One cannot hold the untrained voice of rock, blues, jazz or folk etc. music to the same standards as the trained voice. THIS IS NOT A SLAM AGAINST VOCALISTS WITHOUT SERIOUS OPERA TRAINING! The untrained voice does not noticeably seem so changed with age as the trained voice. Partly because the untrained voice has not worked for several years to overcome many vocal problems & bad habits. Also because the trained voice has a much more refined tone, presumably correct pitch, a well defined vibrato, & it has been transformed into one smooth sounding voice all up & down the higher & lower registers.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: JennyO
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 12:05 PM

I still seem to have the same vocal range I have always had, which is quite wide, but I am enjoying singing more in the low ranges these days. There is a quality developing which I rather like. Overall, I would say my voice is definitely improving.

And definitely no HRT for me after my naturopath warned me off it. I have lots of soy and vegetables, but I'm finding it harder and harder these days not to become more "horizontally enhanced".

Jenny

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: GUEST,Vron
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 02:11 PM

The only "menopausal symptoms" I had turned out to be a wildly out of control thyroid, - a common thing around menopause. I also lost upper voice range for a couple of years, and believing this to be an irreversible result of over active thyroid, was pleasantly surprised to regain about half the loss once the thyroid had been knocked out. My consultant said why wouldn't it return. I'm now 59 and still sing all the time in different styles and situations. I have learnt less harmful voice use, so that I am not so vocally challenged at the end of a day in the classroom. Learning to breathe properly has also helped.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 02:20 PM

KENDALL,

If you've ever been in prison, please take note of the fact that there is one o' those at the end of every sentence.

So, good sir, you have had a period !!!!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 03:28 PM

Men get blamed for too much.

I think it should be renamed "womenopause."

Actually, it does sound like some women's voices are affected. Combine that with years of smoking and you get Marge Simpson's sisters.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Janie
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 04:53 PM

I have always had a low voice, but post menopause my voice tones became richer and more complex.

Janie

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Desdemona
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 05:06 PM

For the record, I'm 39, the mother of 3, and if family history can be relied upon, can look forward to at least another dozen years of menstrual "bliss". That said, I feel compelled to weigh in with the women above who so appositely point out that menopause is just another natural phase of the human experience, not a character flaw or a shameful secret. I'll worry about the whole HRT thing when I get there, but in musical terms: if getting older can help a woman to sing like Norma Waterson, I say bring it on!!

D.

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Helen
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 05:26 PM

I am premenopausal (peri-menopausal is the term my doctor uses). I have not had many symptoms yet, but the irregular periods etc seem to be very much related to the under-active thyroid (hypothyroid) condition I was diagnosed with last year.

I do not sing but I am a teacher and I had terrible trouble with my voice before the hypothyroidism was diagnosed. It was husky & croaky, and I was constantly breathless, as if my lungs had shrunk. I know when my thyroid is acting up - or actually down - because my period is late, but I have also been tested for my hormone levels and I am showing up as peri-menopausal.

I knew nothing about thyroid problems before all of this and now I know a whole lot more. It made my life hell until I was diagnosed, and the (female) doctor I had, who exhibited all the symptoms of a traditional muschroom doctor ("keep 'em in the dark and feed 'em bullshit") made it a whole lot worse so I switched to a brilliant doctor, also female, who is much more enlightened about patient/client service & info sharing, and also about natural therapies complementing medical therapy.

So, my suggestion is to also check out the info on thyroid conditions and how they can affect the voice, because women around this age are the ones most affected by it.

Helen

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Bearheart
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 06:29 PM

I have found that what has helped me the most to retain voice quality is working with appropriate herbs and following the Blood Type diet. As a Blood Type O I found that avoiding wheat and dairy reduced my respiratory problems (esp recurring colds, flus and sore throats, and a generally mucousy condition even when not sick) to almost none. (I had colds and ear aches all the time as a child, and frequently as an adult whenever eating a fair amount of these foods.) Respiratory illness makes it really hard to sing (!), and the after effects are almost as bad.

Herbs have been really helpful in curbing my reproductive difficulties, both premenopausal and menopausal. (I don't get hot flashes to speak of-- especially if I curb my alcohol consumption-- which other folks say is also not good for the voice). I also use herbs at the first sign of respiratory illness if I've been stupid enough to "cheat". Osha Root is excellent for knocking down a sore throat, and many Native American singers use it during the longer (many days long) ceremonies where they are singing continuously.

As for HRT-- It's been pretty well documented in Britain and elsewhere that it is dangerous for most women-- and there are reliable safe herbal alternatives. As far as soy products, the extensive research into Blood Types indicates that Soy is very good for Blood Type A-- the most likely blood type to develop cancer--and the most prevalent blood type in Japan-- but it is not good for Type B, according to some research. Other research has indicated soy can in some people cause thyroid problems. I will say that my sister--Blood Type B-- has developed a thyroid disease and quit eating soy when she heard it could cause such. (She does not follow the BLood Type protocol.) If I were an A I would definitely do soy, but I wouldn't count on it to help much in my case. It mostly gives me gas!

As to the emotional changes that may come with menopause-- I am much more mellow now than when I was PMSing-- but I also try to avoid coffee (not recommended for Os, it messes with both adrenals and thyroid)-- and drink lots of chamomile tea instead. Since I have started eating for my Blood Type I no longer need coffee to jump start me-- I have lots of energy-- so it's way easier to avoid the caffeine. And if this sounds like deprivation, I can only say it's lots better than arthritis, being cranky all the time, and feeling like I never get enough sleep--which is how life was before! I'm not afraid of menopause any more because I feel healthy and strong.

Bekki

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: mg
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 06:33 PM

please read up on soy and the thyroid...not good news...I think Dr. Mary Enig has opinions on this, as do many people.....

mg

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 07:03 PM

I can handle the hot flashes and have never given a whole lot of thought to my voice BUT chin hairs???? and ACNE???? this just isn't fair. I tried hormones and had my first run in with migraines. No thanks. So do I shave or wax or electrocute them?

Subject: RE: Help: Menapause. Effect on the voice?
From: Moses
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 10:35 AM

I'm nearly 57 and in the past year or so have discovered a completely different voice! I'd been used to singing, without much power, in a voice described as "sensitive and sweet", when it was pointed out to me that we all have two voices (chest voice and head voice), a fact I had been unaware of for more than half a century. (Yes I know, HOW??, but it's true).

Friends say I have "blossomed". I can now be heard at the back of the room and I seem to have a bit more confidence. I have no idea if my chest voice would have changed at menopause if I had discovered it beforehand but it's "growing" slightly in range as I push it to the limits.

Water definitely helps to stop the tendency to "break" on some of the high notes but really needs to be drunk throughout the day to prevent the throat drying up (lots of trips to the loo then). Alcohol and fizzy drinks both a no no.

Good luck to all who have this time of life to look forward to - HRT? haven't made my mind up yet as I've only just gone back on it in the hope that the skin will get wrinkled less quickly and I won't get saggy tits!

Subject: RE: Help: Menopause. Effect on the voice?
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 07:46 AM

my voice is lower, I'm more relaxed, I recommend it as a great time of life -the moon waxes and wanes, I'm pretty much at peace. a mellow and very happy time. chin hairs? I stroke them..

Subject: RE: Help: Menopause. Effect on the voice?
From: GUEST,Mary
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 03:34 PM

I am a classical soprano. Before the menopause I could practise for hours and I was getting some semi-professional work as a soloist, as well as amateur stuff. As the menopause kicked in, my voice deteriorated quickly, which was very distressing, and I had to cancel engagements. I am now 61. I can still sing, but the top notes are not as good, and I cannot sing for long without the voice getting tired. I eat healthily, don't drink much alcohol and have never smoked. I do my best to keep my singing going, but it is not what it was. The last few recitals I did, the accompanist had to play after every few songs so my voice could rest. I've reluctantly come to accept the change, but it is disappointing.

Subject: RE: Help: Menopause. Effect on the voice?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:08 PM

2. Keep singing. Sing around the house and in the shower."

That is what I've noticed: when I don't sing as much my voice sounds tinny and uncertain to me. Singing in the exactly perfect key for each particular song is much more important to me then.

I had a relatively easy menopause. Warm flushes but not hot flashes, and no dripping wet face. A friend of mine almost literally soaked her clothes during her 'special' moments. I was lucky.

I think of menopause as being a transitional thing as real and important as puberty all those years before but no more so. No one asks whether puberty has to be treated with hormones. Both are natural processes, neither is a disease, neither calls for extreme measures.

Menopause may cause or exacerbate mood swings- so did puberty. Don't you remember?

Subject: RE: Help: Menopause. Effect on the voice?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 05:17 PM

Voices break at different stages of our life for men and women. Then they mend.

Subject: RE: Help: Menopause. Effect on the voice?
From: JennieG
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 05:36 PM

Yes, they do mend.......but they are not the same as before!

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: Help: Menopause. Effect on the voice?
From: foggers
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 10:26 AM

Well said Ebbie!

I am 50 and am suddenly very interested in getting my head around what it means for me to be peri-menopausal and what this transitional phase is going to bring. There is a fantastic book called the "No Nonsense Guide to the Menopause" which is a proper evidence based account of the various aspects of the transition, women's experiences and what can help. However, it does not say anything that could help us singers! And the one thing that I would really find difficult to adjust to would be a sudden deterioration in my voice because singing is such a fundamental part of who I am.

This thread has some great advice and ideas though, which creates some hope, and it reminds me of why I like dropping by on Mudcat, cos ya never know when a little gem like this might pop up.

Subject: RE: Help: Menopause. Effect on the voice?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 06:27 PM

My voice "mended" after having a longstanding break in mid-register - from late teenage years - which used to make me very nervous in case I hit one of those "break" notes in a song. I then got a virus which half-paralysed one vocal chord (as seen by ENT surgeon down his endoscope) and took about 6 months to recover. Thereafter, the break had disappeared, so every cloud has a silver lining! I also sing choral music where you can't choose your key but have to sing whatever's written, including sometimes way higher than I'd really choose - but that does actually pay dividends in terms of maintaining your range - on the Post Office "use it or lose it" principle While I'd naturally choose to sing between F or G below middle C up to the C above, I can reach top G on a good day or if "messing about"!

Subject: RE: Help: Menopause. Effect on the voice?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 01:46 PM

Interestingly, it is my lower voice that cracks at times. My upper range has improved with practicing more. Reflux can be a hidden problem, but that medication has not helped my problem. Any comments?

Subject: RE: Help: Menopause. Effect on the voice?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:32 AM

I can't say I have noticed any alteration, even at 61 years of age but maybe I just don't listen. However, I buy soya yoghurt from time to time, that might possibly be helping, and my blood group is A.