BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!

Subject: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 03:42 AM

Heard on the radio this morning that Labour are planning a great benefit for workers with families: they will have the right to ask for flexible or part-time working hours, to fit in with the needs of their children. But employers will have the right to refuse!

I invite comments from the floor; also, as the Sun would say, what other laughable reforms do you think Tony Blair could make? Send us your answers!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 03:51 AM

I think that we should be given the right - nay duty to string up hypocritical politicians. I think that he should volunteer to act as a demonstration model!
GtD (NOT LAUGHING!)

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: Ringer
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 04:30 AM

I think you've been a little selective in your description, Steve. If the employer refuses unreasonably, that unreasonableness can be used as grounds for a constructive dismissal claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: pavane
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 04:43 AM

Under the guise of help to small businesses, and encouraging the IT sector, he has already tried to put 66,000 to 100,000 small computer companies (Gov'ts OWN impact assessment figures) out of business, while at the same time easing visa restrictions for foreign IT workers. Lets hope this is as successful as other initiatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 04:44 AM

Well, all right--they did say "if it would be bad for business"; but for constructive dismissal the employer has to dismiss the employee first.

I don't know the exact contents of the proposal; but, more importantly, I don't want the facts to get in the way of a good story!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: GeorgeH
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 05:45 AM

pavane, plese explain . . I clearly missed that . . (and don't get me onto the question of trying to recruit IT staff . . . )

Steve . . No, constructive dismissal is where you leave and then claim you did so because your employer made work intolerable for you.

Personally I like the idea of making things tougher for benefits claimants . . since my son's girlfriend is STILL trying to resolve a benefits claim from three months ago (and gets a different version of the information she needs to supply EVERY time she has contact with the benefits office). I'm sure they already work on the basis of making life as difficult as possible in the hope that claimants just give up . . .

G. (who once had to submit 13 documents with a fortnightly claim for benefits - BECAUSE he'd worked casually in that period and so wasn't entitled to benefit but needed to stay "signed on"!)

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: GUEST,Ickle Dorritt
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:55 AM

Employment law needs to be a lot tougher in this country in order that employers can break more legislation than they currently do.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: pavane
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:35 AM

My comment related to IR35, the attempt to crack down on 'disguised employment'. However, the IR has a very different view of 'employment' to anyone sensible, and is going after freelance people for huge sums in extra tax & NI - it could be in the region of £15k a year. This is not really the place to discuss it, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: Julie B
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:38 AM

I don't really understand what difference it makes whether a worker has a family or not. If an employer doesn't have a problem with their employees adopting a more flexible work pattern, what has 'having a family' got to do with it? Surely if everyone isn't treated equally in this respect, you end up with discrimination against those 'without families', who may be just as keen to adopt flexible working patterns to suit their lifestyle.

Julie B

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: Grab
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 10:28 AM

So Steve, let me know how this is bad, then?

Say I worked in phone sales. If I told my employer I was going to work from 12 midnight to 8am, would that be just fine? Or shift-work in a factory running 24 hours a day - you can arrange to change shifts, but you can't usually choose some time which crosses shifts or go part-time, else the factory will not be able to operate.

The employer HAS to have the right to refuse proposed working times if they're not reasonable, or if they don't fit in with working practices in that company. Remember that the purpose of a business is to make money for the owner(s), NOT to provide an income to employees.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: pavane
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 10:46 AM

The Ec seems to have forgotten a little thing like that. Perhaps they think all employment should be state-provided (but hey, hasn't someone already tried that?)

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 11:26 AM

Look, if I'd wanted to start off a serious discussion, I wouldn't have prefixed it with "BS", would I? I was was inviting humorous comment on the irony of a "right" whose refusal is also a "right".

It's a little like, say: "everyone has the right to immediate free medical treatment; but if a private patient requires treatment the others may have to wait"; or, "you have the right to express your opinions freely*, but if I find them offensive I will have you prosecuted".

"Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll sing the Red Flag once a year!" [Joke]

Steve

*Not in this country you don't!

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 12:34 PM

I have one for you-"This is a free country you can discuss anything you want, unless I decide otherwise and slap a D notice on it" for those that dont know a D notice is a mechanism the government use to stop journalists etc discussing a subject they would rather not have raised, I heared recently that this happened with Foot and Mouth. Do any of you watch the Mark Thomas Project (Channel 4)? This country is not as free as "free" as some people think Although I admit it is more free than most.john

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 07:29 PM

I still go for the String the politicians up principle. I think a good electoral system would include a monthly vote on how well a politician is doing. If 60% of those voting give the Thumbs Down throw him/her to the lions. Let's see hom many of the bastards would want the job then!
GtD (Still not laughing)

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:04 PM

"I'm sure they already work on the basis of making life as difficult as possible in the hope that claimants just give up . . ."

I remember years ago when I started as a social worker we had an important guy from the local Benefits Agency (which was called something different in those days) came along to give a training talk. And he quite openly said that the policy for the office he ran was to reject any request for help additional to the minimum. A lot of people would give up, and if the need was real they'd appeal and keep appealing.

Mind you things have got a lot tougher for claimants since then.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:31 PM

On the question of prefixes, I understood that "BS" was the only one available for indicating a non-musical thread. Certainly many extremely serious discussions are on the record here under that prefix.

On the question of state-provided jobs, yes pavane, it's been tried before but usually by dictators and totalitarian regimes that would make a mess of any system. Even so, there is evidence (from qualitative surveys, as well as anecdotal) that more people were content in the old GDR (when jobs were indeed provided by the state, and everyone had one) than post-reunification. Gangsters, semi-crooked capitalists and a few others are now obscenely rich while, for the first time, many people - often unemployed - are living in or close to poverty. For the first time in many years, greed, envy and keeping up with the neighbours are key factors in the economy, just like good old Keynes predicted it would always have to be in the capitalist world. And right when the world could use a little less "growth for growth's sake."

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: pavane
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 02:53 AM

My 'tried before' was an attempt at humour, as well as hinting at leftward leanings! And as for making a mess of systems, it is hard enough to get a simple business system to work for a single operation in a single company. No wonder attempts to apply systems to whole countries fail.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: GMT
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 03:29 AM

Well Steve, as a joke you've started one of the more serious threads I've seen here.

I tend to agree with GtD. More elections. One a week with a mandatory 'painful' sentence for those who don't get back in.

If only polititions weren't lying, thieving, underhand, backstabing, two faced, self satisfying, arrogant,.....................

Cheers Gary

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: GeorgeH
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 05:57 AM

Discontent with capitalism in former USSR runs even higher than it does in the GDR . . where most people at least believe that the change will be for the better in the slightly longer term . . .

As for re-unification . . there are two central issues. Firstly the politicians of the West promissed the impossible, KNOWING they were doing so.

Secondly, those in the East who had been most actively seeking democratisation were effectively excluded from the re-unification.

Oh, and thirdly, the "Secret Police" (STASI) in the former East were pretty well granted an amnisty - and often allowed to remain in place to ensure "continued social order" . . A visit to the former STASI headquarters in Leipzig is fascinating in this respect, as is the lack of support that particular museum has received . .

(OK, I can't count . . )

G.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 07:40 PM

Graham: are you trying to introduce a new concept here? Companies are SUPPOSED to make a profit? **G**

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: GUEST,Les Jones, once of Ellesmere Port now of Man
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 03:11 AM

I would just like to restate a suggestion of mine from another strand: Blair's central reform is the destruction of the Tory Party. Going quite well I think you will agree?

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: RichM
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 05:56 AM

The purpose of a company is to make a profit; Well, yes, of course! ...Not to provide income for employees? But how many companies can succeed WITHOUT employees?

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 07:24 AM

I cannot tell any difference between Blair's New Labour party and the old Tory party I hated. Blair's policies are more right wing than those of Margaret Thatcher's government a few years back.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: DougR
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 12:58 PM

None that I know of, RichM!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: JedMarum
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 02:22 PM

you don't already have the right to find part-time or flex hour jobs?

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair: another great social reform!
From: DougR
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 03:43 PM

Oooooo, Jed. You're feeling frisky!

DougR