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Songs in Odd Time Signatures
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Subject: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Jeri Date: 30 Jun 01 - 12:39 PM At the Old Songs Festival last weekend, Martin Carthy did a song in a strange sounding (to me) time signature - 5/4. I rather liked it, and was wondering: 1. Do you have any 5/4 songs that you like, or 2. Do you have any favorite uncommon time signatures, and what are your favorite songs in those sigs? I'll post the song (words and tune) Carthy did in just a minute. I couldn't find it in the DT. HERE'S ADIEU TO ALL JUDGES AND JURIES (click) |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Justa Picker Date: 30 Jun 01 - 12:58 PM (Not folk but...) well one of my all time faves is Paul Desmond's "Take 5" , which is in 5/4 time. Something a little more current that I really like is Sting's "Love Is Stronger Than Justice" off of the "10 Summoners Tales" album. The verses are in 7/8 time, and the choruses are in 4/4. 7/8 is a very neat groove. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Suffet Date: 30 Jun 01 - 01:40 PM Reminds me of the one about the Macedonian folk singer. He gets up on stage and introduces his first number by saying, "This song was writtten in 1916, [pause] but I'm going to play it in waltz time." --- Steve |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: GUEST Date: 30 Jun 01 - 01:44 PM In Southeast England traditional singers often hold the first note of 4/4 tunes, stretching them into 5/4. In the Southestern US they often hold the 1st and 3rd, stretching the 4/4 to 6/4.
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 30 Jun 01 - 02:12 PM See also this past thread: Here's Adieu To All Judges And Juries. There are midis for both the sets I quoted in that thread, (which included Carthy's) at Mudcat Midis, though I put his in 3/4 at the time, as I was less confident with staff notation a year ago, and just modified the notation for the other tune to match reasonably the way Carthy sang the song back in 1971. Many traditional sets of the song are in 3/4. 5/4 time turns up in some versions of a number of English songs, some examples from the South being Lord Marlborough; The Murdered Servantman (Bruton Town/ Bramble Briar etc.); The Hostess's Daughter; and Sheffield Park. You also find it mixed with 3/2. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Jeri Date: 30 Jun 01 - 02:59 PM Malcolm, thanks, and duh. I should have used the SuperSearch instead of the regular DT search. Hey Joe, if you're there, Garry's transcription (above) of the Martin Carthy version is a bit different from the one Malcolm posted. There's another version in the other thread as well. No Birdies! I think I got the tune right.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Don Firth Date: 30 Jun 01 - 03:16 PM I can't recall the name of the famous conductor or which orchestra it was, but they were in the process of rehearsing a piece that was in 5/4. All the musicians seemed to be having difficulty with the rhythm, even the conductor. Finally, the conductor got things together and the rehearsal smoothed out. Someone noticed that as the conductor waved his baton, he was muttering something over and over. The "someone" in question tip-toed up behind the conductor to hear what he was muttering. It turned out to be "Rimsky-Korsakov,Rimsky-Korsakov, Rimsky-Korsakov....." Yup. 5/4. "Christopher Parkening" is 6/8. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Philibuster Date: 30 Jun 01 - 03:40 PM I've always liked 3/2 and 9/8 myself. No particular reason. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Mark Clark Date: 30 Jun 01 - 04:24 PM J.P., Yeah I like "Take 5" as well. I don't have Desmond's rendition but I have Brubeck's on his "Time Out" album. I also really liked "Blue Rondo a la Turk." Can't remember the time signature, maybe 9/8. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Helen Date: 30 Jun 01 - 09:53 PM The Butterfly is 9/8. My Lagan Love is all over the place: sometimes 3/4, sometimes 9/8 and sometimes 10/8. Fun to play, though. Jeri, I couldn't get that midi to play because Noteworthy came up with an error message, but the words and rhythm remind me of an Australian traditional song called The Catalpa, also possibly called The Fenians' Escape. It's in the DT - just search for "Catalpa"
A noble whale ship and commander
cho: So come all you screw warders and jailers Helen |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: 8_Pints Date: 30 Jun 01 - 10:43 PM I feel sure I have heard Martin Carthy/Silly Sisters sing various versions of "Geordie": one in 5/4 and another in 4/4 time. Bob vG |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Jeri Date: 30 Jun 01 - 10:48 PM Catalpa here in the DT, but the link to the midi doesn't work because there is no midi - it's just not there. I play fiddle, so I'm quite familiar with 9/8. There's even a few songs in 9/8, such as Rocky Road to Dublin and one version of Byker Hill. Philibuster, I believe 3/2 used to be pretty common for tunes but isn't these days. I'll have to check some of them out. Justa, 7/8 alternating with 4/4 sounds fascinating. Jeff Warner does one that I think alternates between measures of 4/4 and 5/4. I haven't heard him do if for a while though, and I'm not sure what goes where. When The Shantyboy Comes Down is at Barry Taylor's Great Canadian Tunebook, but this version is in straight 4/4. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Jon Freeman Date: 30 Jun 01 - 10:57 PM Jeri, just tried the downloadable version, the SongWright file it points to is ROSINBOW (Rosin The Beau). Jon |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Jeri Date: 30 Jun 01 - 11:53 PM Helen, I just tried translating and opening the file in NWC and had a mess when I accidentally copied more than just the red text. When I did it right, NWC played it fine. The Shantyboy song I mentioned above isn't in 4/4 and 5/4 - it's more like 3/4 and 5/4. My brain overheated today, and I'll blame it on that. Jon, I wonder if the Catalpa Helen mentioned has a different tune, or a 'Rosin' variant that has a bit different rhythm. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Jon Freeman Date: 01 Jul 01 - 12:04 AM I don't know Jeri but I know Rosin The Beau as a 3/4 tune which is the way I would sing it and as a jig. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: GUEST,Terry Blankenship Date: 01 Jul 01 - 12:59 AM Jamie McMenemy from Kornog does several songs in 7/8. Check out the song Jesuitmont, on their "Premiere" Cd . Andy Irvine does some Balkan songs and tunes live in unusual timings. I don't think any of those songs are on his Cds though. Some of the tunes are. Martin Carthy does also. Byker Hill is in an unusal timing. Terry |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: hesperis Date: 01 Jul 01 - 02:07 AM I wrote one in 7/8, but I also syncopated it... and I haven't finished it yet because I can't play it well enough to know what's next! |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Murray MacLeod Date: 01 Jul 01 - 09:37 AM Tony McManus sometimes refers to these tunes as having been written in "spanner sizes". That would be "socket wrench sizes" for a USA audience. "Flash Company" is another 4/4 song which makes brief excursions into 5/4 Murray |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Jeri Date: 01 Jul 01 - 10:01 AM Hesperis, you need one of those music programs so you can enter the dots and then listen to what you've got. If I have dots, it takes me 5 minutes or less to enter them, If you wanted to e-mail them to me, I could do a midi and send it back to you. Murray, I'm obviously no genious when it comes to figuring out time, and we might know different versions, but I thought Flash Company was in 3/4 with one measure of 4/4 Terry, I believe Carthy's the one who set Byker Hill to that tune. Byker Hill on Garry Gillard's page The thread is here. See Abby Sale's post in that thread here. Now this gets tricky. My Dearie has a tune that's similar to Dorrington Lads, a small pipe tune. The tune Martin Carthy used sounds to me like the tune (just the A part) of Dorrington Lads. I think what happened is he combined the words to Byker Hill and My Dearie Sits Up Ower Late and set them to Dorrington Lads. I'll shortly post the words and both tunes to that thread. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Jeri Date: 01 Jul 01 - 10:05 AM ...and whatever Flash Company's in, it drives most accompanists nuts! |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: dick greenhaus Date: 01 Jul 01 - 10:20 AM Time signatures--any notated music for that matter--is at best a rough approximation of what's actually sung or played. Since the folk have traditionally been free with rhythm, beat and melody, any assigned time signature is best taken with several grains of salt. Ye Mar'ners All is often written down in 5/4 time; often in 4/4. The transcription I received of (When We Go)Rolling Home is in 7/8 time; to my ear it's generally sung in 4/4 with some held notes. Whatever works. Moondog, by the way, was well-known for playing with unusual meters. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Murray MacLeod Date: 01 Jul 01 - 10:54 AM Jeri, you are perfectly correct! It's a while since I played the song, but of course it is 3/4 with one bar in 4/4, as you say. Mea culpa. Murray |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Jeri Date: 01 Jul 01 - 11:14 AM Murray, I did it meself last night with the Shantyboy (see goofup above). I have had no formal training to speak of and teaching one's self this stuff paves the way for some creative use of language...mainly four-letter words. This is very difficult for me, but I'm learning. Having done a few tunes for unaccompanied songs, it's not easy to put down how something sounds to you on paper or on screen so other people can understand what you're talking about. Even then it's a "sounds sorta like this" thing and not a "it must be sung this way" thing. Dick, do you have any Moondog recordings? I remember reading about him - possibly here - but I can't remember if any of his LPs have been re-released on CD. I can also play tapes or records. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 01 Jul 01 - 02:09 PM Other than "Take Five" which is all in 5/4, I can think of two songs that switch to a different time signature for a measure or so just to get all the words in. My version of "All My Trials" (not the same as the DT version by Joan Baez) had that fist measure in 6/4. (Hush little baby don't you...then switches to 4/4.) Also, my version of the Christmas song "Rise Up Shepherd and Follow" is in 4/4 with an occasional 2/4 at the end of several lines for the words "follow." The words are in a thread here, but were never harvested. I'll send a note to Joe. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: dick greenhaus Date: 01 Jul 01 - 02:42 PM Check out the dots for The First Time Ever (or A Love Song for Modern Times--MacColl) for a very subtle meter switch. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 01 Jul 01 - 04:43 PM SHE MOVED THROUGH THE FAIR in the DT here is in 6/4! This has been bugging me, trying to remember. Jeri, I think there are more ballads with a more "free time," but I can't think of any. Also, The Lord's Prayer by Malotte. It goes from 4/4 to 9/8 just before "Give us this day..." Clair de Lune by Debussy is in 9/8.
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Lucius Date: 01 Jul 01 - 04:50 PM I've always of Take Five as being in mixed meter--6/8 & 2/4. Same for Jethro Tull's Living in the Past. The only tune that I know (outside of Macedonia & the Balkans) that is in true 5/4 would be Mars from Holst's the Planets. The Beatles did an interesting thing with All you Need is Love. The verses alternate between 7/8 and 4/4 (8/8) time. Lucius
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: GUEST,Gin Date: 01 Jul 01 - 04:50 PM "Bridgewater Fair," has just the one bar in each verse in 5/4, I think, though it's about 20-odd years since I looked! |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Helen Date: 01 Jul 01 - 07:12 PM I looked up The Catalpa in a couple of my folk books and they all listed it as 3/4. It was noted as a variation of Rosin the Bow and another song called Botany Bay (more than one with this title) uses the same tune. I tried the MidiText conversion again with just the red text but it still didn't work. Same error message in Noteworthy. I opened a midi of The Butterfly in Noteworthy and it was in 4/4 time (I think) but I changed it to 9/8 time and shifted the bar lines and it made a lot more sense because the emphasis is always on the first of each nine beats. The sheet music that I have of it is in 9/8. Helen |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Bob Bolton Date: 01 Jul 01 - 11:48 PM G'day, Helen: The Catalpa was collected in Western Australia to the tune of the well-known Botany Bay (Toorali, oorali ... &c). I'm not sure how the Rosin the Bow tune crept in, but I suspect editorial "inspiration" by John Manifold. He may well be right - He identified Boulavogue as the basic Moreton Bay tune from snatches sung by old-timers - then it was collected elsewhere to a clearly related tune. Interestingly, Botany Bay can be traced back, as a music hall/musical play song of 1880 (London musical play called "Little Jack Shepherd"?) to the older Farewell to Ye Judges and Juries of the 1820s. It doesn't retain any of the older tune, that I can detect. On the matter of 5/4 ... I seem to remember that Sydney Carter composed a song All I Want is a Glass of Water (?) in this rhythm. He based it on Greek and Balkan melodies, so he had solid models for the composition. I will check my songbooks when i get home. On 9/8 ... this is really a sort of sub-set of 3/4. As slip jigs, it is found way back ... the earliest that comes to mind is Sir Roger De Coverley, for which I have heard something like 1648 mentioned, but I'm sure such tunes were around long before, just not written down. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: SDShad Date: 02 Jul 01 - 12:31 AM Justa Picker's original mention of "Take Five" reminds me of another Brubeck favorite (I believe Desmond was playing w/ Brubeck when he wrote "Take Five") of mine, "Unsquare Dance," I believe from Brubeck's next album after "Take Five," "Time Further Out." It's a square-dancey-sounding melody, jazzed up, and played in 7/8 time. When they put the track on the album, they left in the band breaking up laughing at the end of the take, amazed that they'd made it to the end.... It's weird, and apparently difficult, but beautiful. Chris |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: pavane Date: 02 Jul 01 - 02:43 AM I have one book of traditional songs, as collected by one of the well known collectors in the early 1900's (Forgot which one at the moment, but don't think it was Sharpe), which has one song in 5/8. I seem to remember Unsquare Dance as being like a compound 2/8 2/8 3/8 in structure, but I am not an expert in such things. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: GUEST,fat B***ard Date: 02 Jul 01 - 04:39 AM The Byrds "Get To You" is in 5/4 and 6/8, "Stephanie" by Arthur Lee's Love is also . Anyone remember Don Ellis with his big band doing stuff in all sorts of weird time. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: alison Date: 02 Jul 01 - 04:50 AM Helen if your MIDItxt isn't working you may need to update it.. I started a thread in the last week... Alan of OZ had to move the site.... and The Catalpa is sung to "Roisin the Bow" slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: pavane Date: 02 Jul 01 - 05:53 AM The Adderbury version of the Morris Dance 'Beaux of London City (or Shooting the Crows)' is in 9/8 time. Funny thing, you don't actually notice anything unusual when dancing it. I don't know if there is a song to go with it (Perhaps I should search) but there usually were for Adderbury dances. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: pavane Date: 02 Jul 01 - 06:53 AM Interestingly, there is a song here The knowing maccaroni outwitted which seems to fit the tune. The first line starts 'You beaux of London city, likewise St. Jame's park', but it is difficult or impossible to make out all of the words. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: English Jon Date: 02 Jul 01 - 07:05 AM While Gamekeepers lie sleeping is usually done in 5/4. Did you know you can beat 11 8 with the phrase "F**k you, you're a Bastard" (1+2+1231+2+)? There you go. EJ |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Jim Dixon Date: 02 Jul 01 - 11:05 PM Back in Sept '00 there was a thread called 5/4 time song in which this topic was kicked around a bit. You might want to have a look. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: alison Date: 03 Jul 01 - 04:43 AM "Sovay" is one in an odd signature.. which we have discussed before and we ended up not much wiser about what time signature it was in..... slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: English Jon Date: 03 Jul 01 - 05:41 AM Martin Carthy has famously remarked that (english) music is in one beat to the bar. EJ |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: John P Date: 03 Jul 01 - 09:11 AM A lot of melodies in 4/4 can be made more driving by changing them to 7/8. It sort of propels the melody forward. Try just dropping the last half beat from each measure. Sometimes it works better to have a 3+4 and sometimes 4+3 is better, it depends on the melody. We're currently working on a 7/8 version of "House Carpenter" and have done the same in the past to "The Sprig of Thyme" and "The Outlandish Knight". If you are new to odd time signtures, it helps to have a phrase to say over and over that has the proper number of syllables and the accents in the right places. We used to use "Alligator Flanigan" or the reverse "Flaigan Alligator' for 7/8. Another song in 5/4 that a lot of people know is "Everything's Alright" from Jesus Christ Superstar. John Peekstok |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: LR Mole Date: 03 Jul 01 - 10:44 AM I have a Moondog LP somewhere. Didn't Pentangle do a song about him, perhaps on "Sweet Child"? |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: CapriUni Date: 29 Jan 04 - 11:19 AM A little over a week ago, I got the itch to write a new song, based on this Irish Proverb: Whoever will bring a story to you will take two stories from you. I have this fear that each new song I write will end up sounding just like the last one. So, in order to keep that from happening, I decided to base the melody on the rhythm of the Irish phrase. But no matter how I juggled quarter notes, eighth notes, dots and accents, I couldn't make the thing "scan" right. Then, this morning, I woke up with The Corpus Christi Carol running through my head. I put the midi into my Noteworthy Composer, and discovered the song is in 6/4 time. So maybe that's the key. Voice from the gallery: No! That's the time sigature! The key is A flat! Ahem. Yes, well ... What do you think? |
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Subject: Heard About a Stone, rhythm pattern 4/4 & 5/4 From: wysiwyg Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:09 PM There is a group of blues and classic gospel songs that are in 4/4 & 5/4. "I Heard About a Stone" is one of them. They start in 4/4 and then there's a passage in 5/4, then it repeats, to the short 4/4 refrain. There is a handclap in most versions of these too, and it's location misleads ya on the rhythm shift because it syncopates the 5/4 part by leading into a long, held note [see (& 2& 3) below] that obscures the beat till you catch the trick. This all messes up guitar players every time I introduce one of these songs! Till you hear it in your head, it's kinda messy! The pattern is, approximately: [4/4] & 1& 2& 3, 4& [5/4] CLAP(& 2& 3)& 4& 5/ [the & is the pickup to the next line] [4/4] & 1& 2& 3, 4& [5/4] CLAP(& 2& 3)& 4& 5/[the & is the pickup to the next line] [4/4] & 1& 2& 3, 4& [5/4] CLAP(& 2& 3)& 4& 5& [4/4] 1, 2& 3& 4& 1,2 3, 4/ [the & is the pickup to the next verse]. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: jimmyt Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:21 PM well if I leqarn nothing else today, I will have at least found out that Dave Brubeck did NOT write Take 5. I have always though Brubeck wrote it. Glad to find out it was his Sax player, Desmond who did. Another 5/4 tune that folks are familiar with is the Theme from MIssion Impossible. Brubeck wrote a piece in 7/4 called Unsquare Dance that makes you feel like you are skipping heartbeats to listen to it. It is a very difficult meter to hold I would think. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: pavane Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:32 PM 7/4 isn't that bad. In Unsquare Dance it is accented as 1-2 1-2 1-2-3 repeated. (7/4 can also be 1-2-3-4 1-2-3) By the way, I did obtain the full text of Beaux of London City, mentioned earlier in the thread, from the Bodleian library. But is isn't really worth submitting here. It isn't known as a folk song, and it isn't very good anyway. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Billy Weeks Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:39 PM 'Searching for Lambs' is beautiful and sounds absolutely natural in 5/4 - no senseof being a modified 4/4 or any other time. Fifty years agoI learned a version of 'Macafferee' from a singer who went though three different time signatures in each verse. It was (as it usually is) closely relatedto 'Lord Franklin', but so free as to be something absolutely else. I can sing it but I am not competent to set it down on paper. This kind of illiteracy is a bit depressing, but it least it makes me sing it to myself occasionally so that I don't lose it!. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: saulgoldie Date: 29 Jan 04 - 01:21 PM I have a hard time keeping track of the less regular timed songs. But one of the 5/4 songs I remember that is one of my alltime favorite pieces is called "Do What You Like" by Blind Faith. Of course, "Take 5" is a great, too. I vaguely remember something like "Yerakina" a Greek folk song rended by The Limeliters--wow, that's two Limeliters mentions in one hour!--in which they discuss the time signature as one measure of a waltz and one measure of a foxtrot. Had a real hard time following the time, though. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Kaleea Date: 30 Jan 04 - 03:25 AM Take Five & Unsquare Dance were staples of my growing up years. By the time I played in Band & Orchestra, I was quite accustomed to odd meters. My high school band director was quite fond of Vaclav Nelhybel, who wrote music for concert band with constant changes in & out of odd meters. We played so much of his charts that when we went to contest, we always won the sight reading competitions. We also played a waltz with 1 beat per measure! In college, I often had to sing in odd meters &/or changing meters, like a lovely Waltz Song in 5/8 which was written so that the listener usually did not notice the meter! & not to forget my wonderful professor of Piano who made me learn lots of Bela Bartok with no tonal center (no "Do" in any particular key) & odd, odd meters! |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Steve Parkes Date: 30 Jan 04 - 04:08 AM There's an ad on UK tv using Brubeck's Pick up sticks, which is in 5/4. Can't remember what the product is, but the various videos are fun (the first few times!) Then there's the old-fashioned rhumba: the modern one is in 4/4, eight to the bar, but the old-fashioned one goes 123-123-12. I seem to recall this is how Pete Seeger describes the bluegrass banjo technique, and it's also (bizarrely) the same rhythm George Formby used in his instrumental breaks. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Mark Cohen Date: 30 Jan 04 - 04:18 AM Nice to see this thread resurrected. I also didn't know that Brubeck did not write Take Five. Kaleea, I think my high school concert band played something by Nelhybel...could it have been something called "Alla Turcotta"? (We're talking all the way back to 1969, so my memory is just a teeny bit rusty! It was actually the All-Philadelphia Concert Band, come to think of it...) I can vaguely remember the melody, and I think it had changing accents from measure to measure, if not changing meter. I believe Mason Williams wrote a song in 5/4 called Three-Legged Waltz. I remember practically nothing of it except 1.6 lines from the chorus: I love to waltz, it Has its faults... Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: GUEST,Master McGrath Date: 30 Jan 04 - 06:01 AM Unsquare dance is in 3/4 in the right hand and kinda 2/4 in the left. English Tapestry used to do a song in 5/4- an old music hall one called drop and carry one. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: pavane Date: 30 Jan 04 - 07:13 AM 2/4 in one hand and 3/4 in the other wouldn't be anything like 7/4 |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Amos Date: 30 Jan 04 - 08:54 AM Desmond (Paul) who plays horn in the immortal Brubeck Quartet recording of Take Five wrote the song, and Brubeck has always said so. However, he did write it for the Quartet to play -- I mean, that's what he was doing at the time. I don't know anyone who has ever asserted that Paul didn't write it. A |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 04 - 11:18 AM Coope Boyes and Simpson do Rufford Park Poachers in 5/8, 5/8, 5/8, 8/8. Lyrics here. Brilliant! |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: radriano Date: 30 Jan 04 - 11:47 AM 5/4 time is not an odd signature. It only seems odd because many people are so used to everything being in 4/4, 3/4, or 3/4. If you look at the Copper Family Songbook you'll note that quite a few songs even shift time signatures. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: M.Ted Date: 30 Jan 04 - 12:06 PM Oh, you sad little people!!--you think you know odd meters, but you haven't played odd meters until you've played in a Balkan dance band--5/ and 7/ are child's play--try keeping 25/16 straight at a tempo quick enough to keep the dancers happy--worse is the dreaded Albanian dance meter called Berance--some say alternates 5/16 with 7/16--others say it is more of an 11/16 with a bit of a drag on the first beat-- By the way, for those who don't understand the concept--3,5,7, 9, and 11, subsequent alternating intergers are "odd numbers", whereas 2.4.6,8 et al, are "even numbers":-) |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 30 Jan 04 - 12:09 PM Being somewhat of a musical illiterate, I can't fully comprehend many of the comments in this thread, although I find them interesting. The only thing about time I can add is something I'm still learning, and my old folk finger picking (and even blues picking styles) are often a millstone around my neck. In black gospel, the singer feels free to hold notes, change rhythms, build momentum, pause or do whatever the spirit moves him (or her to do.) People who play piano or keyboards and accompany black gospel singers have developed a sixth sense to flow with the singer, shifting gears, emphasizing the back beat when the song builds, or drop to a soft pattern of chords... often all in the same song, with no advanced warning. (On top of that, solo singers often just get up and start singing, and it's up to the accompanyist to figure out what key they're in, and then get into the rhythm and expression of the singer. In the last couple of months (after six years of playing guitar to accompany black gospel) a door seems to be opening. Not only am I feeling the song in rhythms I'm not familiar with (and am not even musically literate enough to even know what some of the time signatures are) I'm finding totally different ways of playing guitar and breaking up rhythms as the song progresses. And it can be different every time. This whole shifting rhythms within a song seems common in black gospel, and even though I can play some rudimentary blues "licks" blues settles into a groove and tends to stay there, with improvisation, vocally and instrumentally, flowing around the "groove." Like most of us, when I first learned folk and blues guitar, I spent hours practicing picking patterns and rhythms untill they became almost automatic. Then I've spent the rest of my life trying to break free from the patterns that I often find very limiting, as a singer. Playing in a group requires more discipline in order for everyone to stay in time, but I am primarily a singer who tries to use instruments to respond to the singing. Responding is totally different than just accompanying. I'm not sure any of this makes any sense, but I felt like adding it.. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 30 Jan 04 - 09:53 PM Re. The Rufford Park Poachers. I see that the Coope Boyes & Simpson website describes the song simply as "traditional", which isn't quite accurate. It was recorded by Percy Grainger from Joseph Taylor of Brigg in 1906 (Grainger noted the tune in a combination of 2/4, 3/4 and 5/8), but Mr Taylor remembered only part of the song (verses 1, 2 and 5 of the text referred to). There were no other known versions, and the rest (verses 3, 4, 6, 7 and 8) was written much later by Patrick O'Shaughnessy, based on a contemporary report of the trial (see Patrick O'Shaughnessy, More Folk Songs from Lincolnshire, Oxford University Press 1971, for a detailed account). No doubt they give the proper credits on the record itself. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: NobleSavage Date: 31 Jan 04 - 12:39 AM One simple way to get a handle on 'socket wrench' time signatures is to think of them in one of the usually acctpted conventions of long and short beats--long beat is 123, short is 12. 123 12 12--'long' seven, 12 12 123--'short' seven (usually faster) 123 12--5 (usually Bulgarian or Greek. the opposite is often found in Macedonian music (12 123) The dance known as 'sede danka' is the one in 25/16. 123 12 12+123 12 12+12 12 123 12 12. And so on. . . Those are some of the more common ones the casual musician may encounter when sampling Balkan Music, but there are others, some different combinations of compound rhythmns, some are other divisions of 'standard' rhythmns. I have played a song in 7 that is divided 1+12 12 12--it is Albanian. It is wise to remember that native Balkan musicians don't think of these rhythmns in 'neat' divisions the way we've been taught to--they often play the long and short beats with varying and different time values--the long beats may be just a little longer or shorter, likewise for the short ones--I've heard rhythmns that seem to contain 'half' beats or *almost* half, or? It's really very organic. NS |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: LadyJean Date: 31 Jan 04 - 01:08 AM I am also a musical illiterate, but I know that "The Heights of Alba" has an odd timing. I think it's in the mudcat lyrics collection. Margaret Cristal has a nice recording of it. I always enjoy watching the Tamburitzans, when they perform. They do a great deal of Balkan music, and they make it look very easy. I learned to do a Macedonian folk dance called (I probably misspelled this) Bouchemeese. The timing was one of the reasons it took me four years to get the break right. The other being that Macedonians are very athletic dancers. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: M.Ted Date: 31 Jan 04 - 01:01 PM The music that you're playing is really very complex--with multiple layers of rhythm, and with room for fairly elaborate rhythmic improvisation by any or all of the voices. The great thing about it that you can join in by playing very simple rhythmic ideas, and still make an important contribution--over time, you learn more and more about what is possible while you are playing, and in this way, you become better and better--The most amazing thing is that even the best players and singers keep finding new things in the music-- |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: M.Ted Date: 01 Feb 04 - 10:59 AM My comment was addressed to Jerry--for some reason LadyJean and NobleSavage's comments didn't turn up on my browser til after I posted-- LadyJean is quite right about the Tammies, who, over the years, have tended to be the source and inspiration for many of the American bands groups that have worked with Balkan music--oh, and"Bucemis" tends to be the way it is spelled-- Macedonian music tends to have irregular durations--I was once told that it allowed the dancers space to move in their own way for jumps and such things, while Bulgarian music tended to be precise and on the beat because Bulgarians like to be tight and together when they dance--I am wary of generalizations, but it tends to be a practical rule of thumb, at least when you play the music that Int'l folkdancers like to dance to-- |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Rapparee Date: 01 Feb 04 - 11:37 AM A quick flip through Silber's "Songs of the Civil War" finds "Billy Barlow" in 3/8. Otherwise there are lots of 2/4 and 6/8 and cut time. I know that I've played in 12/8, 9/8, and a bunch that change time when you get into the peice (which seems unfair somehow). Brel's "Marieke" is in 6/4; I'll have to try that. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: s&r Date: 02 Feb 04 - 07:30 AM We have a video of how to dance Irish set dances; the presenter says, "this is danced to a count of seven - one two three four five six sev - ven" |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 02 Feb 04 - 10:41 PM That's Irish Humour, s&r... :-) Robin |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: NobleSavage Date: 03 Feb 04 - 01:38 AM When in doubt, give the dancers what they want, I always say. . . It's just not the same without 'em. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: s&r Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:10 PM Robin - Irish humour gives us a lot of pleasure since our daughter married an Irish Farmer. I'm never sure however when I'm getting my leg pulled. I could never work out the car park sign in Dublin which had three options: Full Spaces Nearly Full (!) Perhaps we're too used to having officialdom that's a bit po-faces Stu |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: M.Ted Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:59 PM NS--I have always maintained that you haven't really mastered a tune unless people can actually dance to it-- |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 03 Feb 04 - 07:12 PM s&r Tip for understanding Irish Humour - always assume that it may be an attempt to pull your leg- even in the most serious circumstanes - the Irish have a profound sense of Gallows Humour - just like the Jewish.... the trick with dealing with it is to not overreact - or the joke is on you... Some of the driest English humourous Literature was written by Irish Writers who were wrongly assumed to be English... Youu HAVE to have a sense of humour to grow potatoes... Robin |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Les from Hull Date: 03 Feb 04 - 08:14 PM I think that two of the best examples of English folk music in odd time signatures are by Brass Monkey. They did 'Riding down to Portsmouth' in 7/4 and 'Rambling Comber' in 5/4. These are both based on old recordings of country and traditional singers who actually sung the songs like this, but the Brass Monkey arrangements are fabulous. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 03 Feb 04 - 08:31 PM When in the SCA - the process of teaching the galliard involved very seriously telling us dancers that it was danced to a five beat - one two three pause four five... but I can assure you that there was no humour invooved... Robin |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: GUEST,Hamish - lost my cookie! Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:59 AM Coope Boyes and Simpson do Rufford Parl Poachers in 5/8, 5/8, 5/8, 8/8 - brilliant! Martin Carthy's fantastic version of Byker Hill is in 9/8 but the meter's divided up as 2/2/2/3. And I don't know what on earth's going on in John Warner's Anderson's Coast. I daren't analyse it or I'm sure I'd lose the swing. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: NobleSavage Date: 04 Feb 04 - 03:33 AM Consider the fact that 'dance' music grew and evloved to be danced to. It it my opinion that who would play a dance tune, (whatever the tradition it comes from) properly--must play it (if possible) for the dance it grew around. It is the task of the musician to make the dance audible, as it is the task of the dancer to make the music visible, (insofar as the word 'task' applies)--replace task with whatever term you feel appropriate. . . Playing the tune never feels complete to me until that happens. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Feb 04 - 04:18 AM This afternoon, I posted the Footboy, from The Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs. The time signature was shown as 6/4 4/4, alternating measures of 6/4 and 6/4. I've never seen a time signature like that. Is that a standard way of writing it? -Joe Offer- Click to play |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: s&r Date: 04 Feb 04 - 04:00 PM What's SCA Robin? Joe: could the Footboy be anothe species of hemiola (as in a previous thread)? Stu |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 04 Feb 04 - 06:33 PM www.sca.org |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: dick greenhaus Date: 04 Feb 04 - 06:53 PM Let's get real. The concept that there's any time signature at all is relatively modern and relatively sophisticated. Traditional singers used any timing and phrasing they liked--time signatures were imposed by the collectors that tried to write the stuff down. Clearly, dance music was a different story. |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: M.Ted Date: 05 Feb 04 - 12:33 AM Well, sort of true and sort of not true, Dick--the fact that time signatures were not used doesn't mean that the music didn't have definite metrical cadences, they were clearly notated in the repeating patterns in the notation--time signatures and measures just made it easier to see them-- The lyrics to folksongs have rhyme schemes and metrical patterns and these are the real underlying "Time signatures"--but, as you say, traditional singers did what they liked with them--there being no reason not to, save if it was for dancing(and a lot of places had traditions of dancing to unaccompanied singing)-- |
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Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures From: GUEST,Celeste Date: 29 Feb 04 - 08:27 PM I'm looking for the three legged lady who danced with the two legged man. I thought it was 5/4 time. |
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