Songs in Odd Time Signatures

Subject: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 12:39 PM

At the Old Songs Festival last weekend, Martin Carthy did a song in a strange sounding (to me) time signature - 5/4. I rather liked it, and was wondering:

1. Do you have any 5/4 songs that you like, or
2. Do you have any favorite uncommon time signatures, and what are your favorite songs in those sigs?

I'll post the song (words and tune) Carthy did in just a minute. I couldn't find it in the DT.

---

HERE'S ADIEU TO ALL JUDGES AND JURIES (click)

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Justa Picker
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 12:58 PM

(Not folk but...) well one of my all time faves is Paul Desmond's "Take 5" , which is in 5/4 time.

Something a little more current that I really like is Sting's "Love Is Stronger Than Justice" off of the "10 Summoners Tales" album. The verses are in 7/8 time, and the choruses are in 4/4. 7/8 is a very neat groove.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Suffet
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 01:40 PM

Reminds me of the one about the Macedonian folk singer. He gets up on stage and introduces his first number by saying, "This song was writtten in 1916, [pause] but I'm going to play it in waltz time."

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 01:44 PM

In Southeast England traditional singers often hold the first note of 4/4 tunes, stretching them into 5/4. In the Southestern US they often hold the 1st and 3rd, stretching the 4/4 to 6/4.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 02:12 PM

See also this past thread:  Here's Adieu To All Judges And Juries.  There are midis for both the sets I quoted in that thread, (which included Carthy's) at Mudcat Midis,  though I put his in 3/4 at the time, as I was less confident with staff notation a year ago, and just modified the notation for the other tune to match reasonably the way Carthy sang the song back in 1971.  Many traditional sets of the song are in 3/4.

5/4 time turns up in some versions of a number of English songs, some examples from the South being Lord Marlborough; The Murdered Servantman (Bruton Town/ Bramble Briar etc.); The Hostess's Daughter; and Sheffield Park.  You also find it mixed with 3/2.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 02:59 PM

Malcolm, thanks, and duh. I should have used the SuperSearch instead of the regular DT search.

Hey Joe, if you're there, Garry's transcription (above) of the Martin Carthy version is a bit different from the one Malcolm posted. There's another version in the other thread as well. No Birdies!

I think I got the tune right.

---

I moved Jeri's post over to the Judges & Juiries thread.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 03:16 PM

I can't recall the name of the famous conductor or which orchestra it was, but they were in the process of rehearsing a piece that was in 5/4. All the musicians seemed to be having difficulty with the rhythm, even the conductor. Finally, the conductor got things together and the rehearsal smoothed out. Someone noticed that as the conductor waved his baton, he was muttering something over and over. The "someone" in question tip-toed up behind the conductor to hear what he was muttering. It turned out to be "Rimsky-Korsakov,Rimsky-Korsakov, Rimsky-Korsakov....." Yup. 5/4.

"Christopher Parkening" is 6/8.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Philibuster
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 03:40 PM

I've always liked 3/2 and 9/8 myself. No particular reason.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Mark Clark
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 04:24 PM

J.P., Yeah I like "Take 5" as well. I don't have Desmond's rendition but I have Brubeck's on his "Time Out" album. I also really liked "Blue Rondo a la Turk." Can't remember the time signature, maybe 9/8.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 09:53 PM

The Butterfly is 9/8. My Lagan Love is all over the place: sometimes 3/4, sometimes 9/8 and sometimes 10/8. Fun to play, though.

Jeri, I couldn't get that midi to play because Noteworthy came up with an error message, but the words and rhythm remind me of an Australian traditional song called The Catalpa, also possibly called The Fenians' Escape.

It's in the DT - just search for "Catalpa"

A noble whale ship and commander
Called the Catalpa, they say
Came out to Western Australia
And took six poor Fenians away

cho: So come all you screw warders and jailers
Remember Perth regatta day
Take care of the rest of your Fenians
Or the Yankees will steal them away

Helen

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: 8_Pints
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 10:43 PM

I feel sure I have heard Martin Carthy/Silly Sisters sing various versions of "Geordie": one in 5/4 and another in 4/4 time.

Bob vG

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 10:48 PM

Catalpa here in the DT, but the link to the midi doesn't work because there is no midi - it's just not there.

I play fiddle, so I'm quite familiar with 9/8. There's even a few songs in 9/8, such as Rocky Road to Dublin and one version of Byker Hill.

Philibuster, I believe 3/2 used to be pretty common for tunes but isn't these days. I'll have to check some of them out.

Justa, 7/8 alternating with 4/4 sounds fascinating. Jeff Warner does one that I think alternates between measures of 4/4 and 5/4. I haven't heard him do if for a while though, and I'm not sure what goes where. When The Shantyboy Comes Down is at Barry Taylor's Great Canadian Tunebook, but this version is in straight 4/4.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 10:57 PM

Jeri, just tried the downloadable version, the SongWright file it points to is ROSINBOW (Rosin The Beau).

Jon

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 11:53 PM

Helen, I just tried translating and opening the file in NWC and had a mess when I accidentally copied more than just the red text. When I did it right, NWC played it fine.

The Shantyboy song I mentioned above isn't in 4/4 and 5/4 - it's more like 3/4 and 5/4. My brain overheated today, and I'll blame it on that.

Jon, I wonder if the Catalpa Helen mentioned has a different tune, or a 'Rosin' variant that has a bit different rhythm.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 12:04 AM

I don't know Jeri but I know Rosin The Beau as a 3/4 tune which is the way I would sing it and as a jig.

Jon

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: GUEST,Terry Blankenship
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 12:59 AM

Jamie McMenemy from Kornog does several songs in 7/8. Check out the song Jesuitmont, on their "Premiere" Cd .

Andy Irvine does some Balkan songs and tunes live in unusual timings. I don't think any of those songs are on his Cds though. Some of the tunes are.

Martin Carthy does also. Byker Hill is in an unusal timing.

Terry

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: hesperis
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 02:07 AM

I wrote one in 7/8, but I also syncopated it... and I haven't finished it yet because I can't play it well enough to know what's next!

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 09:37 AM

Tony McManus sometimes refers to these tunes as having been written in "spanner sizes". That would be "socket wrench sizes" for a USA audience.

"Flash Company" is another 4/4 song which makes brief excursions into 5/4

Murray

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 10:01 AM

Hesperis, you need one of those music programs so you can enter the dots and then listen to what you've got. If I have dots, it takes me 5 minutes or less to enter them, If you wanted to e-mail them to me, I could do a midi and send it back to you.

Murray, I'm obviously no genious when it comes to figuring out time, and we might know different versions, but I thought Flash Company was in 3/4 with one measure of 4/4

Terry, I believe Carthy's the one who set Byker Hill to that tune.

Byker Hill on Garry Gillard's page

The thread is here.

See Abby Sale's post in that thread here.

Now this gets tricky. My Dearie has a tune that's similar to Dorrington Lads, a small pipe tune. The tune Martin Carthy used sounds to me like the tune (just the A part) of Dorrington Lads. I think what happened is he combined the words to Byker Hill and My Dearie Sits Up Ower Late and set them to Dorrington Lads. I'll shortly post the words and both tunes to that thread.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 10:05 AM

...and whatever Flash Company's in, it drives most accompanists nuts!

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 10:20 AM

Time signatures--any notated music for that matter--is at best a rough approximation of what's actually sung or played. Since the folk have traditionally been free with rhythm, beat and melody, any assigned time signature is best taken with several grains of salt. Ye Mar'ners All is often written down in 5/4 time; often in 4/4. The transcription I received of (When We Go)Rolling Home is in 7/8 time; to my ear it's generally sung in 4/4 with some held notes.

Whatever works.

Moondog, by the way, was well-known for playing with unusual meters.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 10:54 AM

Jeri, you are perfectly correct! It's a while since I played the song, but of course it is 3/4 with one bar in 4/4, as you say. Mea culpa.

Murray

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 11:14 AM

Murray, I did it meself last night with the Shantyboy (see goofup above). I have had no formal training to speak of and teaching one's self this stuff paves the way for some creative use of language...mainly four-letter words. This is very difficult for me, but I'm learning.

Having done a few tunes for unaccompanied songs, it's not easy to put down how something sounds to you on paper or on screen so other people can understand what you're talking about. Even then it's a "sounds sorta like this" thing and not a "it must be sung this way" thing.

Dick, do you have any Moondog recordings? I remember reading about him - possibly here - but I can't remember if any of his LPs have been re-released on CD. I can also play tapes or records.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 02:09 PM

Other than "Take Five" which is all in 5/4, I can think of two songs that switch to a different time signature for a measure or so just to get all the words in.

My version of "All My Trials" (not the same as the DT version by Joan Baez) had that fist measure in 6/4. (Hush little baby don't you...then switches to 4/4.)

Also, my version of the Christmas song "Rise Up Shepherd and Follow" is in 4/4 with an occasional 2/4 at the end of several lines for the words "follow." The words are in a thread here, but were never harvested. I'll send a note to Joe.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 02:42 PM

Check out the dots for The First Time Ever (or A Love Song for Modern Times--MacColl) for a very subtle meter switch.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 04:43 PM

SHE MOVED THROUGH THE FAIR in the DT here is in 6/4! This has been bugging me, trying to remember. Jeri, I think there are more ballads with a more "free time," but I can't think of any.

Also, The Lord's Prayer by Malotte. It goes from 4/4 to 9/8 just before "Give us this day..."

Clair de Lune by Debussy is in 9/8.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Lucius
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 04:50 PM

I've always of Take Five as being in mixed meter--6/8 & 2/4. Same for Jethro Tull's Living in the Past. The only tune that I know (outside of Macedonia & the Balkans) that is in true 5/4 would be Mars from Holst's the Planets.

The Beatles did an interesting thing with All you Need is Love. The verses alternate between 7/8 and 4/4 (8/8) time.

Lucius

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: GUEST,Gin
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 04:50 PM

"Bridgewater Fair," has just the one bar in each verse in 5/4, I think, though it's about 20-odd years since I looked!

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Helen
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 07:12 PM

I looked up The Catalpa in a couple of my folk books and they all listed it as 3/4. It was noted as a variation of Rosin the Bow and another song called Botany Bay (more than one with this title) uses the same tune.

I tried the MidiText conversion again with just the red text but it still didn't work. Same error message in Noteworthy.

I opened a midi of The Butterfly in Noteworthy and it was in 4/4 time (I think) but I changed it to 9/8 time and shifted the bar lines and it made a lot more sense because the emphasis is always on the first of each nine beats. The sheet music that I have of it is in 9/8.

Helen

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 11:48 PM

G'day,

Helen: The Catalpa was collected in Western Australia to the tune of the well-known Botany Bay (Toorali, oorali ... &c). I'm not sure how the Rosin the Bow tune crept in, but I suspect editorial "inspiration" by John Manifold.

He may well be right - He identified Boulavogue as the basic Moreton Bay tune from snatches sung by old-timers - then it was collected elsewhere to a clearly related tune.

Interestingly, Botany Bay can be traced back, as a music hall/musical play song of 1880 (London musical play called "Little Jack Shepherd"?) to the older Farewell to Ye Judges and Juries of the 1820s. It doesn't retain any of the older tune, that I can detect.

On the matter of 5/4 ... I seem to remember that Sydney Carter composed a song All I Want is a Glass of Water (?) in this rhythm. He based it on Greek and Balkan melodies, so he had solid models for the composition. I will check my songbooks when i get home.

On 9/8 ... this is really a sort of sub-set of 3/4. As slip jigs, it is found way back ... the earliest that comes to mind is Sir Roger De Coverley, for which I have heard something like 1648 mentioned, but I'm sure such tunes were around long before, just not written down.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: SDShad
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 12:31 AM

Justa Picker's original mention of "Take Five" reminds me of another Brubeck favorite (I believe Desmond was playing w/ Brubeck when he wrote "Take Five") of mine, "Unsquare Dance," I believe from Brubeck's next album after "Take Five," "Time Further Out." It's a square-dancey-sounding melody, jazzed up, and played in 7/8 time. When they put the track on the album, they left in the band breaking up laughing at the end of the take, amazed that they'd made it to the end....

It's weird, and apparently difficult, but beautiful.

Chris

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: pavane
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 02:43 AM

I have one book of traditional songs, as collected by one of the well known collectors in the early 1900's (Forgot which one at the moment, but don't think it was Sharpe), which has one song in 5/8. I seem to remember Unsquare Dance as being like a compound 2/8 2/8 3/8 in structure, but I am not an expert in such things.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: GUEST,fat B***ard
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 04:39 AM

The Byrds "Get To You" is in 5/4 and 6/8, "Stephanie" by Arthur Lee's Love is also . Anyone remember Don Ellis with his big band doing stuff in all sorts of weird time.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: alison
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 04:50 AM

Helen if your MIDItxt isn't working you may need to update it.. I started a thread in the last week... Alan of OZ had to move the site....

and The Catalpa is sung to "Roisin the Bow"

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: pavane
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 05:53 AM

The Adderbury version of the Morris Dance 'Beaux of London City (or Shooting the Crows)' is in 9/8 time. Funny thing, you don't actually notice anything unusual when dancing it. I don't know if there is a song to go with it (Perhaps I should search) but there usually were for Adderbury dances.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: pavane
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 06:53 AM

Interestingly, there is a song here The knowing maccaroni outwitted which seems to fit the tune. The first line starts 'You beaux of London city, likewise St. Jame's park', but it is difficult or impossible to make out all of the words.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: English Jon
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 07:05 AM

While Gamekeepers lie sleeping is usually done in 5/4.

Did you know you can beat 11 8 with the phrase

"F**k you, you're a Bastard" (1+2+1231+2+)?

There you go.

EJ

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 11:05 PM

Back in Sept '00 there was a thread called 5/4 time song in which this topic was kicked around a bit. You might want to have a look.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: alison
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 04:43 AM

"Sovay" is one in an odd signature.. which we have discussed before and we ended up not much wiser about what time signature it was in.....

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: English Jon
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 05:41 AM

Martin Carthy has famously remarked that (english) music is in one beat to the bar.

EJ

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: John P
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 09:11 AM

A lot of melodies in 4/4 can be made more driving by changing them to 7/8. It sort of propels the melody forward. Try just dropping the last half beat from each measure. Sometimes it works better to have a 3+4 and sometimes 4+3 is better, it depends on the melody. We're currently working on a 7/8 version of "House Carpenter" and have done the same in the past to "The Sprig of Thyme" and "The Outlandish Knight".

If you are new to odd time signtures, it helps to have a phrase to say over and over that has the proper number of syllables and the accents in the right places. We used to use "Alligator Flanigan" or the reverse "Flaigan Alligator' for 7/8.

Another song in 5/4 that a lot of people know is "Everything's Alright" from Jesus Christ Superstar.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: LR Mole
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 10:44 AM

I have a Moondog LP somewhere. Didn't Pentangle do a song about him, perhaps on "Sweet Child"?

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: CapriUni
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 11:19 AM

A little over a week ago, I got the itch to write a new song, based on this Irish Proverb: Whoever will bring a story to you will take two stories from you.

I have this fear that each new song I write will end up sounding just like the last one. So, in order to keep that from happening, I decided to base the melody on the rhythm of the Irish phrase. But no matter how I juggled quarter notes, eighth notes, dots and accents, I couldn't make the thing "scan" right.

Then, this morning, I woke up with The Corpus Christi Carol running through my head. I put the midi into my Noteworthy Composer, and discovered the song is in 6/4 time.

So maybe that's the key.

Voice from the gallery: No! That's the time sigature! The key is A flat!

Ahem. Yes, well ...

What do you think?

Subject: Heard About a Stone, rhythm pattern 4/4 & 5/4
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:09 PM

There is a group of blues and classic gospel songs that are in 4/4 & 5/4. "I Heard About a Stone" is one of them.

They start in 4/4 and then there's a passage in 5/4, then it repeats, to the short 4/4 refrain. There is a handclap in most versions of these too, and it's location misleads ya on the rhythm shift because it syncopates the 5/4 part by leading into a long, held note [see (& 2& 3) below] that obscures the beat till you catch the trick. This all messes up guitar players every time I introduce one of these songs! Till you hear it in your head, it's kinda messy!

The pattern is, approximately:

[4/4]
& 1& 2& 3, 4&
[5/4]
CLAP(& 2& 3)& 4& 5/ [the & is the pickup to the next line]
[4/4]
& 1& 2& 3, 4&
[5/4]
CLAP(& 2& 3)& 4& 5/[the & is the pickup to the next line]
[4/4]
& 1& 2& 3, 4&
[5/4]
CLAP(& 2& 3)& 4& 5&
[4/4]
1, 2& 3& 4& 1,2 3, 4/ [the & is the pickup to the next verse].

~S~

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: jimmyt
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:21 PM

well if I leqarn nothing else today, I will have at least found out that Dave Brubeck did NOT write Take 5. I have always though Brubeck wrote it. Glad to find out it was his Sax player, Desmond who did. Another 5/4 tune that folks are familiar with is the Theme from MIssion Impossible.

Brubeck wrote a piece in 7/4 called Unsquare Dance that makes you feel like you are skipping heartbeats to listen to it. It is a very difficult meter to hold I would think.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: pavane
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:32 PM

7/4 isn't that bad.
In Unsquare Dance it is accented as 1-2 1-2 1-2-3 repeated.
(7/4 can also be 1-2-3-4 1-2-3)

By the way, I did obtain the full text of Beaux of London City, mentioned earlier in the thread, from the Bodleian library. But is isn't really worth submitting here. It isn't known as a folk song, and it isn't very good anyway.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:39 PM

'Searching for Lambs' is beautiful and sounds absolutely natural in 5/4 - no senseof being a modified 4/4 or any other time.

Fifty years agoI learned a version of 'Macafferee' from a singer who went though three different time signatures in each verse. It was (as it usually is) closely relatedto 'Lord Franklin', but so free as to be something absolutely else. I can sing it but I am not competent to set it down on paper. This kind of illiteracy is a bit depressing, but it least it makes me sing it to myself occasionally so that I don't lose it!.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: saulgoldie
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 01:21 PM

I have a hard time keeping track of the less regular timed songs. But one of the 5/4 songs I remember that is one of my alltime favorite pieces is called "Do What You Like" by Blind Faith. Of course, "Take 5" is a great, too.

I vaguely remember something like "Yerakina" a Greek folk song rended by The Limeliters--wow, that's two Limeliters mentions in one hour!--in which they discuss the time signature as one measure of a waltz and one measure of a foxtrot. Had a real hard time following the time, though.

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Kaleea
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 03:25 AM

Take Five & Unsquare Dance were staples of my growing up years. By the time I played in Band & Orchestra, I was quite accustomed to odd meters. My high school band director was quite fond of Vaclav Nelhybel, who wrote music for concert band with constant changes in & out of odd meters. We played so much of his charts that when we went to contest, we always won the sight reading competitions. We also played a waltz with 1 beat per measure! In college, I often had to sing in odd meters &/or changing meters, like a lovely Waltz Song in 5/8 which was written so that the listener usually did not notice the meter! & not to forget my wonderful professor of Piano who made me learn lots of Bela Bartok with no tonal center (no "Do" in any particular key) & odd, odd meters!

Subject: RE: Songs in Odd Time Signatures
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 04:08 AM

There's an ad on UK tv using Brubeck's Pick up sticks, which is in 5/4. Can't remember what the product is, but the various videos are fun (the first few times!)

Then there's the old-fashioned rhumba: the modern one is in 4/4, eight to the bar, but the old-fashioned one goes 123-123-12. I seem to recall this is how Pete Seeger describes the bluegrass banjo technique, and it's also (bizarrely) the same rhythm George Formby used in his instrumental breaks.

Steve