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BS: Gerry Adams - my hero
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Subject: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Jul 01 - 04:15 AM From BBC online news "Gerry Adams has revealed a passion for hugging trees during sensitive talks about the Northern Ireland peace process. The Sinn Fein president confessed to cuddling trees in Downing Street and the White House as well as across the country. Mr Adams spoke of his love of trees in an article with the Irish TV listings magazine RTE Guide." This guy has honestly gone up a million fold in my estimation. Forget whether tree hugging is a hippy thing. Forget whether some may consider it barking (pun intended). He has shown us all that even with the weight of responsibility on your shoulders you can still spend time doing calm, relaxing things or even, dare I say it, acting daft! I always thought Mr A was a good guy and he is proved it over the last couple of years with the restraint and diplomacy he has shown in dealing with the thugs and villains who want to perpetuate the troubles in Ireland for their own devious ends. He has now shown himself as a humourous and sensible human being as well. Trivial it may be. But it is the trivial things that make up the bigger picture. Now if we could only make some of the other do the same. But the sight of Ian Paisley kissing babies and stroking kittens does not seem to scan somehow! Knock me for being trivial. Flame me for being easily led. But don't knock Gerry. He is up there with the greats. Cheers Dave the Gnome
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: pavane Date: 06 Jul 01 - 04:26 AM Words fail me. I am sure someone can find some tho. If I am ever in court, I will try tree-hugging as a defence, or maybe call a plant as a character reference |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: GUEST,Lanfranc at the orifice Date: 06 Jul 01 - 04:49 AM Never mind, Dave, there were millions who thought Hitler was a pretty good, baby-hugging type of guy. Most of them came around eventually. There are those who admire Slobodan Milosevic. Time will tell, here. I even know one or two people who believe that Tony Blair is an honest, upright socialist with a subtle agenda that most of us are too stupid to appreciate. What have Adams, Schickelgruber and Blair got it common? They're politicians. Nuff said?
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Big Mick Date: 06 Jul 01 - 04:57 AM With one exception. Adams has shed his blood for his beliefs. More than you can say for the others. And he has also put his own life in jeopardy again in pursuit of a just peace. You may not care for him, but he has shown himself to be resourceful and unrelenting in his pursuit of the kind of peace that will be lasting. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Jul 01 - 05:14 AM I said in the opener. I'll say it again. Call me shallow. Flame me for having a short memory or whatever but don't knock Adams. If hugging trees is what it takes to win over the voting masses in Ireland then he gets my vote anyday. Let's hope everyone else is as stupid as me and votes for the man who has changed to peaceful tactics to win an end to violence. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: GUEST,Dita (at work) Date: 06 Jul 01 - 05:59 AM I can remember when Glasgow was "a disgrace to the UK" for naming a part of the city after a "murdering, racist , terrorist, thug, who was a convicted criminal" - that would be ........Nelson Mandella Square. love, john. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Jul 01 - 06:12 AM Well said, John. Wish I'd have thought of it! "What have Adams, Schickelgruber and Blair got it common? They're politicians"? So were Mahatma Ghandi, Nelson Mandella and Che Guevara. One mans terrorist is another ones freedom fighter. Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Jul 01 - 06:26 AM What have Adams, Schickelgruber and Blair got it common? They're politicians..(Lanfranc)
With one exception. Adams has shed his blood for his beliefs. More than you can say for the others.(Big Mick)
Dangerous using that as a measure of a man's worth. Hitler actually seems to have been brave enough as a soldier in the Great War, and was gassed.
The latter half of Big Mick's post about the courage shown by Adams in moving the Republican Movement away from the violence is more to the point.
And I can't see the others having the nerve and the self-mockery to talk about tree hugging and such.
Maybe we'll see Gerry getting together with Prince Charles before long. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Wolfgang Date: 06 Jul 01 - 07:04 AM What have Adams and Hitler in common? - They both have shed their own blood for their beliefs What have Padraig Pearse and Timothy McVeigh in common. - They both have been executed for their convictions What have Martin Luther King and the Ulster Orangemen in common? - They both met with opposition when marching That's a silly game. It is called 'guilt by association' and its objective is to find a superficial similarity between any two (or more) that can only impress someone who doesn't like to think. As for Adams, I'm reading at the moment an unauthorised biography of this man. If he succeeds in the long run at what he tries right now, to bring the main part of the IRA into following a peaceful strategy without changing the final aim, then he'll be considered (rightly) in fifty years from now a great man, whatever he may have done when he was young. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: InOBU Date: 06 Jul 01 - 07:32 AM I prefer to share Bernadette Devlin McAlisky's opinion of the man, not much of one... Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: InOBU Date: 06 Jul 01 - 07:33 AM PS I should say, not for the reasons most of you who dislike him, dislike him. He strikes me as a bit of an opportunist. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Wolfgang Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:40 AM Bernadette McAliskey on Adams: Gerry Adams is younger, smarter and better looking than John Hume. You mean that, Larry? (grin) Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Fiolar Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:06 AM Comparing Gerry Adams to Adolph is I feel just a little insulting to the man and the thousands who voted for him. He is, like it or lump it a democratically elected MP. Unlike Adolph, Adams has not sent anyone to concentration camps, has not as far as I am aware invaded Poland and other countries in the European Mainland. He has not forced Jews to flee the country and for those who remain has not made them wear yellow stars. Adolph after all was 50 when he was the cause of World War 2, while Gerry Adams is now 53. Comparing people to monsters like Hitler, may seem funny, but believe me it is not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: InOBU Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:28 AM Good on ya WOlfgang! I have to agree with Fiolar. I find it is the case that few of us who have empty places at our diner table (my mother is half Jewish and half Rom [Gypsy]) compair folks to Hitler. It diminishs the horror of a state with a goal of removing entire people's from their place on the earth. My father, who was Anglo-Irish, and more than simply progressive, did not understand that, it is the simple knowlege that if I were there I would not be here, which imprints itself on the heart, in our blood, forever. Ziguenier nacht in Auschwitz Bergan Belsen will never end for those of that blood forever. Some day, other wars may end, but like the destruction of the Temple, some things become writen on the soul. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Wolfgang Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:28 AM Was it really so difficult to understand my intention? I did not like Lanfranc's trick of putting Adams, Hitler and Blair in a single sentence. That's what is termed 'guilt by association' because this 'argument' hopes that the bad name mentioned will somehow transfer a bit to the other names mentioned. I have repeated this trick in exaggeration to show how stupid it is. Same as others who have repeated Lanfranc's insulting sentence via citation. To compare Hitler to Adams seriously is much more than a little insulting. I apologise if I have made people think by my post that could be done. Larry, I did understand the picture of the empty seats, but perhaps only because I have read it before from you (that's my best guess to where I know it from, but I'm not completely sure). Wolfgang
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: CET Date: 06 Jul 01 - 05:34 PM At first I thought Dave's fulsome praise of Gerry Adams might be something of a "modest proposal". But no, he's serious. This is Gerry Adams, the representative of the IRA, which has not decomissioned so much as a 9 mm pistol. Gerry Adams, who has as much blood on his hands as any other terrorist, loyalist or republican. If Gerry Adams wanted peace instead of victory, General de Chastelain would not have been forced to admit that the decomissioning process has so far been a complete failure, and David Trimble would not have had to resign. No, Gerry Adams is not Hitler. He's an IRA man. That's bad enough. Edmund |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Jul 01 - 05:46 PM I think most people understood that, Wolfgang - I don't think the comments about bracketting Hitler, Adams (and Blair) were directed at Lanfranc.
The crucial thing isn't whether someone has demonstrated their willingness to risk their lives for their beliefs, or even that they have persuaded people to vote for them. There are plenty of wicked things that have been done by people of whom both those things could be said - Hitler is the most obvious and dramatic example, but the history of most countries have other examples.
What matters is whether somehow they act in a way that brings peace and justice within reach. If hugging trees helps in that, the more tree-hugging the better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Bill D Date: 06 Jul 01 - 06:03 PM history...especially recent history, is full of 'leaders and peacemakers' who just happened to advocate and tolerate, if not create, violence and hate and division when it was convenient. I will take overtures of peace ANYTIME, but I will respect them more from those who never did things the violent way...People do change, but they are still partially what they were. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Lanfranc Date: 06 Jul 01 - 06:26 PM What do you expect from an office at 30 celsius and relative humidity of around 90percent but a bit of a flamer! From the cool of Lanfranc Towers, I see that to cite AH and Milosevic was perhaps a little intemperate. The IRA have perpetrated many heinous acts, but haven't yet got round to genocide. My comments were intended as hyperbole, and the point I was trying to make was that for Gerry Adams to embrace trees is not consistent with his perceived persona. A bit like Hitler taking to wearing a yarmulka, or Tony Blair turning up with his guitar on PalTalk! To quote that other (fictional) curmudgeon - "I don't believe it", or, to be strictly accurate, I don't believe the act was either ingenuous or anything other than a PR smokescreen. Call my cynical, if you must. However, if it helps the peace process to turn into something other than mushy peace, so be it. I can't see Paisley following suit, though. Dave's entitled to his heroes, as am I to mine. It's just that, as far as I am aware, none of mine are what I believe to be apologists for sectarian murder, or a front man for a bunch of gangsters in political disguise. I feel just the same way about Protestant paramilitaries, by the way, so if I'm not Politically Correct, at least I'm consistently Politically Incorrect. Now back to the music! After me ............. "I think that I shall never see, a Fenian cuddling a tree.......... !"
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: toadfrog Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:02 PM Wolfgang has a good, logical point. But answer me this: 1. What do Maggy Thatcher, Henry VII, and Geronimo have in common? 2. What do Colin Powell, Dean Acheson, and Elvis Presley have in common? 3. What do Ewan McColl, Charles Addams, and Ben Hur have in common? Hey? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: toadfrog Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:03 PM Sorry, I didn't mean Henry VII. I meant Henry VIII. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Den Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:35 PM I have a good idea... why don't you all just fuck off and keep your ignorant comments to yourself...its painfully obvious that you don't have any idea about the situation in NI and never will. I personally, am fed up with our dirty laundry being traipsed out here for the world and its individual dog to sneer and comment upon like we exist in some kind of free for all fish bowl. If your under the misconception that your being helpful in terms of the peace process...then I think you have a few more books to colour in. Den |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Bill D Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:49 PM maybe we do know...maybe we DON'T know....but as long as it all keeps happening, someone will notice and comment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 07 Jul 01 - 01:02 AM I loved Gerry Adams' book - A Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Fiolar Date: 07 Jul 01 - 06:50 AM CET: So Gerry Adams has as much blood on his hands etc. If a private individual takes up arms or joins a group of people who are fed up with getting discriminated against and murdered they are terrorists and have bloodstained hands. But if a powerful State (officialy or un-officialy) sanctions murder and false imprisonment and torture they are defending democracy and the "rule of law." Come on, pull the other leg. Do people seriously think that if the Catholics in Northern Ireland had continued to do nothing that the Unionists would have voluntarily granted them civil rights. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: GUEST,chrisj Date: 07 Jul 01 - 07:41 AM Gerry Adams is no saint whatever Dave seems to think. My own heroes in the political sphere are Winston Churchill and Mrs Thatcher, two statespersons who maintained Britain's proud record of protecting defenceless peoples against their would-be oppressors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Jul 01 - 08:18 AM I imagine toadfrog meant everyone in his list was a bloke? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Fiolar Date: 07 Jul 01 - 08:41 AM Winston Churchill protector of the defenceless? Well that's news. July 20th 1911: nine killed in Llanelli, South Wales, three by soldiers' bullets. August 8th 1911: two shot dead in Liverpool. August 18th 1911: 50,000 troops are sent to London as workers strike. Who was Home Secretary? two guesses. Wasn't this the same Churchill who advocated the use of tanks and aircraft in Ireland during its War of Independence. Thatcher? Defender of the defenceless? Was it the same lady who sent the police in 1984 to break the miners when they protested against pit closures? Perhaps these two must have dopplegangers in an alternate Earth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Jul 01 - 09:54 AM Nom point in rising to a blatant troll's bait, Fiolar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Brían Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:35 AM Well said, McGrath. Brían |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Sean Mac Date: 07 Jul 01 - 11:24 AM Adams ignored a public plea to him from Eamonn Collins,ex-IRA, in the form of an open letter to an Irish newspaper, pleading for an end to violence and his right to freedom of speech. A few weeks later Collins was murdered. If that's your idea of a hero, fair enough. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: GUEST Date: 07 Jul 01 - 12:25 PM Sean Mac, You seem to be suggesting that punishment beatings/killings to keep people obedient and in step with the party line is somehow unique to the IRA. It is one of the difficult facts we all must come to grips with in these situations where a colonial "enemy" is being challenged by indigenous resistance groups. Have you no recollection of "the necklace" used by ANC members and supporters in South Africa? Pretty grim and awful. Yes, the South African apartheid government was successfully defeated by the ANC and it's supporters. Yes, the ANC and it's supporters engaged in the tactics you cite. But it just doesn't follow that we shouldn't allow the ANC into the South African government, because of the atrocities committed during the war. At some point, to re-establish social order to a society torn apart by political violence, must accept back into the fold the very people who committed the atrocities. I can't think of a single case where this hasn't happened, from Argentina, to Nicaragua, to South Africa, to Zimbabwe, to the Balkans.
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Fiolar Date: 08 Jul 01 - 06:09 AM McGrath and Brian: Sorry fellows, I wasn't rising to any bait. It's just that there are people out there whose knowledge of history is abyssmal and it helps on occasion to list the facts. In today's British paper the Observer, there is another illuminating story about Churchill "protector of the defenceless." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Brendy Date: 08 Jul 01 - 10:50 AM Well said Den. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: GUEST,JB Date: 08 Jul 01 - 01:09 PM It´s painfully obvious that many of the views posted here come from people who haven´t got the fogiest idea of Irish History. As rightfully stated by Fiolar, there is no way the unionists would be sitting around a table with Catholics if it had not been for a bloody war. Granted there were many tragic deaths and terrible atrocities perpetrated I hasten to add by all sides. Incidentally for me the word "Unionists" is really a euphemism for the term "Brits". They have the nerve to call themselves "Irish". They actually reject everything that is Irish from culture, language, religion and music. However be assured they are no more Irish than the man in the moon. Check out your history before opening your gobs and you will indeed discover that these so-called "Unionists" are 2nd and 3rd generation English descendants who came by land illegally by literally throwing out the lawful owners and claiming it for themselves. Very often they received this land as a gift from the King of England for putting down the Irish. Having said all that, we Irish would be willing to forgive and forget, but what if you have been dominated by the Unionists who reject everything that is Irish and wield all the power in the jobs and housing sectors and keep the Irish crawling on the ground. That was the situation which started the demonstrations in 1969. My impression is that many who have posted their remarks here think that the "troubles" started in 1969. More fool you, this war has been going on for over eight hundred years. Personally I would love to smack that guy who compared Gerry Adams to Hitler. JB
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: ard mhacha Date: 08 Jul 01 - 02:27 PM Hello All, To give an indication of the pedigree of the Orangemen and the rest of their fellow travellers,this summing up of the Planter stock is proof indeed that their offspring have followed a similar line. The Rev Andrew Stewart, a former Prebyterian Minister at the time of the Plantation states, "they were the scum of both nations[England and Scotland], who for debt and breaking and fleeing from justice, sought asylum among the fair fields of Ulster". Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Jul 01 - 03:01 PM The Republic...declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the children of the nation equally, and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past. From the Proclamation of the Irish Republic 1916.
Any attempt to reject as "non-Irish" the minority is completely at odds with what has always been a central principle of the Republican tradition. Unionist , Loyalist, whatever, they are all "children of the nation", and without them it would be a poorer nation when all this is over.
As for the kind of rubbish quoted by ard macha just there - isn't that just the same kind of stuff that's been said about the rest if us? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: ard mhacha Date: 08 Jul 01 - 03:19 PM McGrath, And I thought you were releated to that ould Doll McGrath who strangled two soldiers with the straps of her Bra. It shows you how wrong I was. Slan Ard Mhacha |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Hillheader Date: 08 Jul 01 - 03:52 PM Someone more intelligent that I once said "If you know the answer to the Irish problem - then you don't understand the question" but that should never stifle debate and even argument. To some people history is what they are taught, and as a non-catholic I certainly was taught a different history from the one I finally learned. We were not taught for example that the leaders of the 1916 rebellion (and remember it was more a socialist rising - and there is perhaps the real reason it was trampled down - than a nationalist one) had their bodies buried in limepits so that the bones would not be available or that Connolly was shot although it was clear he would die in a few days from gangrene in any case. Neither was I told that a Unionist minority in Derry elected the majority of the city councillors and that an employer had a vote for himself and each of his employees - thus effectively disenfranchising the minority. This is the inherant unfairness that lead to the current troubles and the Unionists are rewriting history still. Paisley still trumpets "Ulster says No" but "Ulster" has never been asked! The province of Ulster consists of the six counties of Northern Ireland plus Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal so for Ulster to say "No" these three counties would need to have been included. The earlier analogy to South Africa is quite valid in another way. A present the Unionists can claim to be the majority but within the next 5 to 10 years they will actually be the minority. Where to then? Will they accept the democratic decision at the ballot box or will the British Government of the day be forced once again to sent up another enclave in Ireland for them to retreat to? South Africa was also an example of a relatively new culture (The Boers) claiming precedence over the indigenous culture of the tribals Africans. This is mirror by Orangism in Northern Ireland today. With regard to decommissioning I would ask Mr Timble if he trusted the IRA. The answer I am sure would be "NO" and that being the case he would not believe the IRA had decommissioned even if they said they had! I'm also sure that even if the IRA showed video footage of guns being destroyed then Trimble would class that as a mere stunt. So if he will never believe that the IRA have decommissioned, what is the point of insisting that they do so??? Quo Vadis? Davebhoy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: John MacKenzie Date: 08 Jul 01 - 04:29 PM As a protestant Glaswegian may I say that the nationalists have every right to Ulster it was formed on a false premise, bolstered by a bastard referendum and exists only due to the cowardice of the English government. For a so called democratically elected government they sure ignored democracy when it suited them. My only criticism is of their methods of obtaining their independence, murder and bombings are inexcusable for whatever reason. I must say too that that remark applies equally to both sides. Somebody once said that the problem with Ulster is that there are too many Protestants and too many Catholics and not enough Christians. Still a valid comment Jock |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Jul 01 - 04:37 PM
Ulster has been around a lot longer than that, and, as has been pointed out, it has nine counties, not six.
Which of course means that the only real Ulster Unionists are the people who want to reunite it... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Big Tim Date: 08 Jul 01 - 05:58 PM Just watched Gerry et al on Endgame on BBC TV, Gerry is quite a skilled conman. Martin McGuinness more real, still a conman tho. Also interesting to see just how far Trimble is backtracking on decommissioning, the recent murder of an innocent Catholic, for which he blamed republicans then retracted and apologised, etc. Politicians, eh, who needs them? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Jul 01 - 07:10 PM Just to address one or two points that have been raised while I have been away. I don't believe Gerry Adams is a saint. I believe he is human. That is what I said didn't I? Whether he is or was activeley involved in any facet of IRA violence is the whole point. He is now promoting peace more than any other polititian in the limelight in Northern Ireland. If he goes back on that then I will review my opinions. Fickle I know. But then I am also human. For those, particulary the English who won't forgive the IRA bombings, remember that the German Luftwaffe killed far more civilians than the IRA did or ever will. Do we hold that grudge still? And before you say that was a war, ask yourself what the IRA were indulging in. No, sorry. I stand by my post. The man, whatever his past, is now doing his damdest to achieve peace. Power to his elbow and peace to all. Cheers Dave the Gnome |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Bill D Date: 08 Jul 01 - 07:25 PM it may be that Adams is sincerely seeking peace now, and if so, argue that on it's merits....but body count is hardly a way to rate culpability. Gerry Adams was not the equivilent of a Luftwaffe pilot...he was a theoretican, spokesman...and perhaps an instigator.....and grudges ARE held against those sort, even if they change their attitude. I am not defending or condemning the holding of grudges...just noting how people work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Jul 01 - 09:49 PM A closer parallel than the Luftwaffe would be other people who have been involved in colonial wars against the British. I've never been aware of any English people getting particularly exercised against any of them, once the fighting's over.
Where the Luftwaffe parallel comes in is the fact that this was the only colonial war that involved bombs in English cities, so far as I can remember.
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Fiolar Date: 09 Jul 01 - 06:19 AM DaveBhoy - More power to your elbow. If my memory regarding the history of Northern Ireland is correct, Craig was initially offered the whole nine counties of Ulster but rejected it out of hand. Why? Because the Catholics outnumbered the Protestants and there was no way that was acceptable. The "compromise" of course is still with us. One solution of course to the problem would be if the British Parliament decided to give a date when the millions poured into the six counties would end. It would be amazing how soon things would change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Gervase Date: 09 Jul 01 - 10:27 AM Those Orange lunatics Brits? Puhleese! I'm a bloody Brit, and I wouldn't want to share an island with them. Why the feck we can't send 'em off to the Falklands to nag the life out of the Argentines iks beyond me... And, while we're on the subject of decommissioning, wasn't that picture in the papers the other day of all the decommissioned UVF/UDA weapons and bombs a joy to behold? You mean you didn't see it?! Ah well, it just goes to show that I really must stop smoking the hash my father scored. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Hillheader Date: 09 Jul 01 - 01:20 PM The nub of the problem really is two sides still - to a greater or lesser extent - in their respective trenches. Nationalists will need to forgive the excesses of the past and move on. However, even if they do that the Unionist will still fear the expected backlash that their perception of a united Ireland will bring. The unionists created the problem be separate areas for nationalist and thus involked a form of apartheid. In this connection can anyone confirm that there are 12th of July parades held in the Republic of Ireland? I heard that there were, but presumed it was apochryphal rather than fact. Until we can see that forgiveness and allay those fears then the problem will still exist. But coming back to the original point:- Gerry Adams hugging a tree? Do we know what school the tree went to??? Davebhoy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: ard mhacha Date: 09 Jul 01 - 01:36 PM Daveboy, Cant see how you can pontificate on the sick six counties when you ask if there are Orange Parades held in the 26, of course there are and have been from the countrys division. If you haven`t been here what do you know. Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Fiolar Date: 09 Jul 01 - 01:56 PM Once on holiday with some friends who lived in the vicinity of the area where the Battle of the Boyne took place, I asked my mate to show me the actual battle site. He knew the area well but even then had difficulty in finding it. He told me that every year, Oranges from the North tear their hair out looking for it. Incidentally there is a town in Africa which holds Orange Marches every 12th of July and even send delegates to the lodges in the Six. No it isn't South Africa. There was an article in the Guardian a few years ago replete with photos. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Jul 01 - 02:13 PM Pontificate - to act or speak with airs of great authority or infallibility.
I couldn't see any signs of that on the part of Dave, just neighbourly interest and a desire to know more, which is something to be welcomed.
And there's a great many people who've spent their whole lives in Ireland without having any occasion to become aware of the existence of Orange parades in the 26 counties.
If the only people allowed to express views on topics of controversy or conflict were the ones living in the places concerned it'd be a different Mudcat - some people would,like it better that way, but I'd miss the intercontinental exchanges. And outsiders can often provide useful perspectives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Snuffy Date: 09 Jul 01 - 07:58 PM BBC News "Two members of the security forces were killed when their land rover hit a tree. A spokesman for the provisional IRA later claimed that they planted it" And why is the greatest insult to call us English "Brits" - the Britons were Celts, we are Saxons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Hillheader Date: 10 Jul 01 - 11:43 AM Ard Mhacha. I have been in Ireland several times (Newgrange and Tara are amazingly spiritual places) but never on July 12th so the only information I had was heresay. Part of the problem is that people tend to talk from a position of ignorance rather than knowledge and thus the trenches get deeper and wider. I was simply trying to ensure I was did not fall into that trap. Perhaps though if the Orange Day parades in the Republic were given more media attention it would be a small step towards allaying the unionist fears that their culture would disappear in a united Ireland. They could even hold their annual rally on the site of the battle itself. Davebhoy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Fiolar Date: 10 Jul 01 - 01:17 PM I wonder whose job it would be to publicise the Orange Marches? But that's a horse of a different colour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Jul 01 - 04:06 PM Coming up to the 'Glorious 12th' I think I would rather see the other one in August - at least only innocent birds get killed in that one! The marching season only seems to perpectuate the violence we have all had enough of. Today the home secretary has ordered an enquiry into the state of race relations in Bradford - after 3 days of violence. Why oh why cannot he see that this a pretty futile gesture after allowing the racial and sectarian hatred to go on in Northern Ireland for so long. Next month I will be going to Weston Park along with thousands of others to enjoy a festival of music and, hopefully, peace. Why cannot the people there now get along with each other and stop this stuborness. Sorry to be rambling on. Buried the Mother of a close friend today and funerals always make me maudlin. Anyhow, in the words of one of my favourite Belfast songsters, Anthony John Clarke -
I want to eat at the same table Lets make a start at mending those broken years here eh? Starting now there are no Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Black, White or hated Mudcatters. We are all human. We all have a common faith. We are all one colour. Peace Dave the Gnome |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Jul 01 - 05:19 PM I remember back at the start of the Troubles when there were worries about people interfering with an Orange Parade in the Republic as some kind of "reprisal" - the IRA issued a warning that any attack on the Orange Parade would be treated by them as hostile action. There wasn't any trouble.
When all this is over, and a few more years have gone by, there'll be Orange marching bands in the Fleadh Ceoil, and they'll be welcomed. And the 12th will be as general a celebration as the Notting Hill Carnival, or the Miner's Gala in Durham, or the Bonfire Night in Lewes in Sussex (where they still burn an effigy of the Pope, but there's no hard feelings about it these days.)
Roll on the day. But it won't be tomorrow yet awhile... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Dave Wynn Date: 10 Jul 01 - 08:53 PM Can't raise my contribution to the heights of some who clearly have a better knowledge and grasp of the NI situation , but I can say that on one working visit to Belfast (Castlereagh Industrial Estate) back in the late 80's I (and my car) was searched by British soldiers who politely let me know I wasn't welcome , as driving a British registered car with electronic equipment and tools in the boot made their life difficult. Later that evening I was told politely by some people in a bar (in a repulican area I was stupid or innocent enough to walk into) that I wasn't welcome there because I was British. Found me later that night back at my hotel reflecting on the fact that life sure was complicated in Belfast Spot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Fiolar Date: 11 Jul 01 - 05:57 AM I doubt if Orange bands will ever march at any Fleadh Ceoil or that the 12th of July will in any way, shape or form compare with the Miners' Gala in Durham or the Notting Hill Carnival. These events are not based on religious triumphalism bu the simple wish of people to have enjoyment and to honour the working man. The "glorious" 12th on the other hand is kept alive by hatred and a wish to lord it over the other side. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jul 01 - 07:49 AM You may be right Fiolar. But Orange Marches in the Republic surely aren't about triumphalism and lording over the Teagues, they're about a minority community preserving its ethnic traditions, in principle akin to events like the Notting Hill Carnival.
In a united Ireland, in time the same could be true of traditional parades in all parts of Ireland. If it hadn't have bween for Partition, that would long have been the case.
A lot's got to change before that can happen. But I think if you are going to believe there can be enduring real peace in the whole of Ireland, you have to believe in the possibility of those kind of changes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Airto Date: 11 Jul 01 - 12:19 PM As far as I know there is just one Orange march each year in the Republic, at Rossnowlagh in Co. Donegal. Orange lodges from Dublin and the border areas like Cavan and Monaghan usually go North to march. A year or two back the Mayor of Dublin thought it would be a fine gesture to invite the Orange order to march in Dublin, like they used to do in pre-independence days. The thinking was they wouldn't be any threat to Dubliners and therefore would be a quaint spectacle for the citizenry. Delighted Orangemen observed how strange it was they were being invited to march in Dublin but couldn't do so in parts of the North. This caused Sinn Fein and others to vehemently oppose the invitation for fear of handing the bowler-hatted ones a propaganda coup while Drumcree was still on the boil. Violence was threatened and the invite was soon withdrawn. By the way, McGrath, I remember John Hume many years ago also looking forward to the day when the 12th would become a harmless cultural event. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jul 01 - 04:25 PM There are Orange Lodges in part of West Africa, I believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Big Mick Date: 11 Jul 01 - 04:36 PM Yes, I agree completely with you, Kevin. But in order for that to happen, there has to be a fundamental change in what the marches represent. If this were a simple matter of my Catholic Brothers and Sisters not wanting to see a parade because it pissed them off, my response would be entirely different. I would remind them, the same as I have reminded my friends in the civil rights movement here in the States, that to impinge on their freedom of expression is to impinge on yours. But when the march includes damage and destruction of Catholic Churches, attacks on Catholics going to and from church, stopping in front of Catholic Churches and playing in a way to disrupt or make it impossible to celebrate the Mass, and burning of Catholic homes..............when these things are your definition of free speech, then you deserve the same treatment that the Klan, and the other white supremacy based organizations got and are getting. When hate is your mission, then you deserve to have the government that claims to represent the welfare of ALL THE PEOPLE hunt you out of existence. I hate the KKK, but I understand that they have a right to exist. But when their members murder, rape, and destroy property they deserve to be treated as a criminal cartel. ANY organization in the North that has as its mission the destruction of others deserves the same. Those Orangemen that simply want to celebrate their heritage should be allowed to do so...............when they demonstrate that they can do so peacefully and without a detrimental effect on the Catholic population. That has not been the case in the North for many years. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jul 01 - 06:02 PM But it can and I believe will happen. There are parallels between the Orange Order and the Klan, but there are also real differences. One of the most important is, for good or ill, the Orange marchers don't wear masks. (The symboliosm here is ambiguous, but it's a different symbolism to the white hoods, and one that I believe can on time mean something a lot more acceptable than at present is the case.)
As I said, a lot of changes will have to take place.
I imagine that at one time if you'd talked about people dressing up as Confederates and dressing up as Union soldiers getting along together and cooperating in reenactments of Civil War battles - they'd have said you were crazy.
I'm not talking about in our time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 11 Jul 01 - 08:58 PM Since I am not in Northern Ireland and know only what I read, any comments I would make would only expose my ignorance. I do hate, however, to see dismissive reference to any group displaced by the government of Britain- convicts, debters and doxies to Australia and the American colonies- or even "scum" sent to Ireland. Eventually the people must be reconciled or the Battle of the Boyne will be fought into the 25th Century. Many "terrorists" have become elder statesmen later in life. Look at Kenya, South Africa, China, Vietnam, etc., for examples. Begin in Israel was certainly a terrorist, but he helped to found a nation, although that nation's policy of displacing the peoples who were there is deplorable. Leading, of course, to a situation even worse than that which existed (exists?) in Northern Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jul 01 - 09:19 PM I'm afraid I'd say Begin was always a terrorist, and so is Sharon. But the point is well taken - and there have been many Israeli leaders who did turn their back on terrorism, from Ben Gurion. But lets not get into arguing about that here. If anyone wants to talk about that, I suggest it'd be better to start another thread, or maybe revive on old one that isn't too long.
Demonising any group is futile. It's accidents of birth and upbringing that determine which side we find ourselves. We should focus our attention on trying to make our side behaving decently, rather than concentrating on the failings of the other side. And there's always a side we are on, even when we think we are detached from it. That's just another side, and sometimes it's the most important side in keeping a conflict going when you get down to it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Fiolar Date: 12 Jul 01 - 09:24 AM One of the problems with the Six Counties is that sectarianism and hatred is kept alive and flourishing because it suits certain people. Does anyone for one moment believe that the only reason that the border hasn't disappeared is the "fear of being ruled by Rome?" Remember the rallying cry of the anti-homerulers - "Home Rule is Rome Rule." One of the main reasons in my opinion is the fear that in a united Ireland, many of the politicians who are big fish in a little pond would find themeselves small fish in a large pond. They thus play on the fears of the Protestant people that they would have to swear alegiance to Rome or some such bollocks. Ireland has changed a lot since I first left in the 1950s and is more of a secular state now than probably the North. Having said that it doesn't help much when masked gangs shoot into the air at bonfires and riot as apparently happened at several venues last night. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Big Tim Date: 12 Jul 01 - 04:33 PM Fiolar, you may not know it but the Battle of the Boyne sight has been taken over by the Government (November 1999) and is to be made into a Heritage Centre. After consultations with unionists and the Orange Order Bertie Ahern said "we must dedicate ourselves to promoting mutual respect and reconciliation. I believe that if the sight is presented sensitively, the divisions of the 17th century can be explained in a way that will help foster reconciliation in the 21st". More power to that man's elbow, on this matter at least. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Airto Date: 13 Jul 01 - 07:15 AM To get back to the original subject of this thread, I can't find it in myself to regard Gerry Adams as a hero. When Seamus Mallon described the Good Friday agreement as "Sunningdale for slow learners" he wasn't only referring to the unionists. Sinn Fein and the IRA made a major contribution to pulling down that power sharing government. The IRA committed many atrocities over the intervening years and in my opinion its actions were intended to provoke a civil war. The innate decency of the vast majority in the North, on both sides, prevented that happening. Gerry Adams is obviously an intelligent man, but it took him and his colleagues a long time to recognise that you can't persuade people to join in a united Ireland by murdering their friends and neighbours. Having said that, I wish them well in continuing to restrain the wilder men in their movement who even now remain attached to the gun. It is a dangerous task requiring personal courage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: GUEST,Anon Mainland Brit Date: 13 Jul 01 - 07:37 PM We buried our cousin some years ago. With full honours, flag, and firing party. Only a poor squaddy. The coffin was full of bits of corpse, and a sand bag to make up the weight. His death ?, trying to clear a shoping area of Belfast before a reported car bomb went off. The warning was late, he was standing next to the nondescript car when the explosion happened. His wife was 5 month pregnant when he died. I am mature enough not to hold the Irish people guilty for the crimes of the few, but please don't make the mistake of confusing terrorists with heros. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Coyote Breath Date: 13 Jul 01 - 11:31 PM It is hard for us in the states to comprehend the level of hatred exposed in NI. All my friends were always my friends first and whatever else they were Catholic, Jewish, agnostic, Methodist, Baptist was (and still is) only a footnote to who they were. There is something seriously wrong with those in the North who seem determined to keep that hatred the only definition of who a person is alive. Considering the likes of Johnny Adair (even behind bars he probably has a strong influence) I cannot blame the IRA for not wanting to destroy their weapons at this moment. Given the regular attacks on Catholic homes and persons for whom the IRA has often been the ONLY protector, it would be suicidal. What I REALLY can't understand is why the RUC is allowed to continue to pretend that they are a body commited to law and order. In the states such a police force would be disbanded and its members arrested for criminal action. Wasn't William of Orange a DUTCHMAN? I like Gerry Adams too, and ANYONE else who is willing to work for peace in NI |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Fiolar Date: 14 Jul 01 - 05:12 AM With regard to the RUC that is one of the sticking points which the Nationalists want sorted out and the Unionists are digging their heels in. Many books have been written about the RUC over the years. One I read a few years ago was unstinting in its praise about this "magnificent" force. If it were only true. To quote the old adage -"There's non so blind as those that don't wish to see." I am not saying that every single member of the RUC are tainted, but sadly over the years a few rotten apples have existed. It is seen in many Catholic eyes as simply the tool of a bigoted, sectarian government who for too many years manipulated and connived to avoid giving Catholics civil rights. The classic was the regular use of "gerrymandering" where the political boundaries were manipulated so as to give an unfair advantage to the Unionists. The surprising thing about the Sinn Fein politicians is that any at all should have made it into politics and be prepared to peacefully negotiate in view of the history of Nothern Ireland. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE SHAMROCK SHORE From: Brendy Date: 14 Jul 01 - 08:12 AM Couldn't find this in the database (Most of you are talking shite, incidentally!) SHAMROCK SHORE |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams - my hero From: Brendy Date: 14 Jul 01 - 08:22 AM Correction: Our Parliament in College Green for to assemble 'twill be seen B. |
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Subject: Re: LYR ADD: Shamrock Shore From: Jeri Date: 14 Jul 01 - 08:41 AM See Lyrics posted by Pene Azul. This wasn't that easy to find - the thread title is general: "Seeking Irish Lyrics." Joe, did you harvest those songs? |