Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?

Subject: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: Aodh
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 09:59 AM

I've just listened to Chuir M'Athair mise dha'n tigh Charraideach, and I was reminded how much Gaelic Scotland has been influenced by Gaelic Ireland. but with the exception of the Ulster Plantation has Gaelic Scotland had much influence on Gaelic Ireland?

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 11:17 AM

Well ... it has musically. All those tunes that crossed over (Mrs MacLeod's Reel; Rakish Paddy; Money Musk; Out On The Ocean). There's always been two-way human traffic between Scotland and Donegal (check out The Poor Mouth and its "carousing in Scotland" themes).

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: Fiolar
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 01:32 PM

Try "The Hard Road to the Klondike" by Mici Mac Gabhann. The book was translated from the Irish (entitled "Rotha Mor an tSaoil") by Valentine Iremonger. The only other major influences I can recall from history is (1) the "invasion" by Edward Bruce, brother of Robert in 1315. The expedition went disastrously wrong and Edward was killed at the Battle of Faughart in 1318 and (2)the use of hired Scottish mercenaries by the various chieftains in Ulster and Connacht from about the 13th century onwards. Called "Gall Oglaigh" or "foreign warriors", they were heavily armoured and usually weilded axes or two-handed swords. One of the most famous clans was the MacSweeneys called "MacSweeneys of the Battle Axes." The "English" word "gallowglass" is derived from them.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 04:22 PM

I believe the reel is originally scottish whereas jigs are irish and have gone the other to scotland and england. (although oddly enough French canadian jigs are not at all jigs) the tune drowsy maggie is claimed by both Irish and Scottish and the north Ireland eg Donegal fiddle style are a lot more scottish in style.

but I think the gaels settled scotland from Ireland.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: Aodh
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 09:27 AM

moran tang! ive got something to work on now!

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: GUEST,The Burren Ranger
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 09:05 AM

Lets not forget that the name 'Scotland' derives from the term'Scotia'('Land of The Irish'...so the ancient Romans referred to the area). The original rulers were the northern Irish tribe of Dal Riada (they do say Queen Liz herself is a decendant!) who conquered and settled west Scotia. in the BC. TBR

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: gnu
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 06:28 PM

I recently received an email from a relative of mine which addresses this. The following excerpt is edited for brevity. I make no warranty of the accuracy as it came to me "second hand".

The highlanders are true "Scotts" derived from Scotei meaning from the island of Scottia (where the Fir Bholga, Mil Espanaia and Tuthua e Dannan hail from) ....... this same island has many other names such as Hibernia, Ibernia, Ibhernia, Eire, Eirin, Eirie, Eiriu.

The latest most commonly referred to name is Eire-Land or you guessed it, Ireland. The word "Land" which is of crout/Square Head Anglo/Saxon origin is tagged on the end. Other examples of this anglicisation are Deutsce-land, Hol-land, Angle-Land Scott-Land)etc... The Scottei branched out from Eirin to explore, raid invade the Hebrides of Alba which is now bears their name .. ie Scottland, literally, the land of the Scottei, i.e peple of Eirin.

Highland Gaels which were Scottei immigrants from Eire maintained language, music, story, religion (RC), names etc... Thats why today when you meet the people of the highland clearances in Antigonish, Pictou, Inverness, Mabou, Nova Scotia, they are, by and large, RC.

After the highland clearances of the "Papists", the lowlanders of Scottland, who were actually Picts, not Gaels from Eirin, began to adopt highland culture for lack of their own. They began playing pipes only for military music and lost the use of them for dances. They began wearing skirts instead of true kilts which are a large 8x8ft blanket worn much as a roman toga.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: sheila
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 08:38 PM

gnu -

Some of the earliest clearances (and particularly brutal they were), were of the people of Strathnaver, by the Duke of Sutherland. I'd be amazed if there were many (any?) 'papists' among them. The Highland Clearances weren't a Protestant v Catholic thing, they had more to do with class and economics - both Catholics and Protestants were removed from their homes. If you are interested in finding out more about this period, I can suggest books and websites.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: little john cameron
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 08:47 PM

Ah hae tae disagree Shiela,bit it wis maistly Protestants that were moved. ljc

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: little john cameron
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 08:56 PM

Before the Plantation the population of Ulster had been mainly Gaelic. With the new settlers coming from England and Scotland, Ulster eventually had a mixed population of Gaelic and British. One cause of conflict in Ulster was religion. The local Irish were Roman Catholic while the English and Scots were Protestants. So by the end of the Plantation, Ulster had a mixed population with opposing beliefs. As well as trying to change the local religion the planters tried to change local laws. One lasting effect of the Ulster Plantation is shown by the names of people and places, which reflect those of England. For example the Guilds of London undertook the development of county Coleraine and enlarged the small villages of Coleraine and Derry. To show that they had made Derry into a town, the guilds used the prefix 'London'. So Derry became known as Londonderry. In a similar way specific craftsmen's Guilds gave their names to places like Draperstown and Cookstown

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 09:01 PM

My ancestors were some of those who were removed by Sutherland, even though some of them bore the same last name. None of them were RC, either.

Interesting thread!

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: little john cameron
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 09:33 PM

OOPS,sorry aboot that ,ah jist noticed that ye didnae mean Ulster.ljc

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: GUEST,chrisj
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 04:04 AM

With history, particularly of a region like the islands of Gt Britain and Ireland where various ethnic groups have interacted over many centuries, it is easy to fall into controversy over nomenclature or 'facts'. I reckon the best, most objective attempt at such a history is: 'THE ISLES,a history', by Norman Davies, published by Macmillan,1999. Has anyone read it?

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: Fiolar
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 05:41 AM

Yeah. Good book. At least he puts the record straight on many things.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: sheila
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 08:25 AM

kat - Do you know where your family were cleared from?

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 05:53 PM

sheila... I would appreciate your suggestion of books and websites to pass on to my relative. He is an ardent history buff. Thanks in advance.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 06:55 PM

I've never heard that the non-Gaelic Scots were ever particularly Pictish. Surely they are surely descended more from the Germans and the Danes, like the English. (And being Scottish isn't to do with race, any more than being Irish. It's a matter of geography. And attitude.)

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: Snuffy
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 07:42 PM

The Picts were the indigenous race extinguished or assimilated by the Celtic invaders (genocide?). And the Lowland Scots were Anglo-Saxon invaders who did the same to the Celts in that area.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: sheila
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 08:51 PM

gnu -

There's an excellent bibliography at

and a chronology at

.

The website owner has recently published a book dealing with the Strathnaver clearances - 'The Stonemason: Donald Macleod's Chronicle of Scotland's Highland Clearances', by Douglas MacGowan (Editor), Donald Macleod.

My family were cleared from Strathnaver - some went south, some to places like New Zealand, and some to the coast of Sutherland.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: sheila
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 08:59 PM

Ack - I did a cut and paste on the website addresses - and they disappeared! try - http://www.macgowan.org/noname.html - for the bibliography

and http://www,macgowan.org/chronology.html - for the chronology.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: little john cameron
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 09:28 PM

This mannie,David Dale has a wheen o'stuff aboot the wee islands.It's no' too academic.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidDale1/Hisco.htm

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: paddymac
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 10:23 PM

I would add to Fiolar's post that the MacDonalds were also a prominent "galloglass" clan. My feeling is that we sometimes get so carried away looking for differences that we lose sight of the abundant commonalities.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: Aodh
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 08:14 AM

Hi, It's me Aodh the one who started this all off! Firstly on the matter of the RC -v- CofS thing, After "the 45" the gentry of the Highlands and Islands who supported the Prince where replaced by the Lowland Hanovarian Lairds, those that wern't, reformed there religion to save them selves from the Tower of London. My own ancestral lord, (Clan Ranald) had an entire community transported in chains, because they wouldn't follow his lead. Secondly some of the very first Plantations in Ulster were by Catholics. I may be wrong on these and I would like to know if I am! Mile Moran Tang!

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 08:46 AM

For the past couple of years I've had a musical liason with a fine chap and mate called Mike Wild.I'm, according to my late father, a MacDonald of Sleat. Mike is of Irish extraction and is a MacGrail from Co. Mayo originally as he has been researching his family tree he has found out the MacGrails were itinerent musicians hired by the court of MacDonald some centuries ago. Interesting how history appears to have repeated itself by our musical liason !!

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Irland?
From: weepiper
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:31 PM

Ho-kay, this is a bit of a barrel of worms right here.
I sense a bit of underlying pro-celticism here which is no really a bad thing but well-informed pro-celticism would be better. I resent the implication that lowland Scots 'had no culture of our own' I mean please.
The popularity of highland imagery (real or made up!) in the 19th century was by no means restricted to Scotland either, it was but one aspect of a general romanticism and nostalgia apparent across Britain (and to an extent Europe).
Who knows who the 'original' inhabitants of Scotland were. Does it really matter? For the record, at the time of the Dal Riadan settlements it is generally accepted that the north and east of Scotland down to about Fife were inhabited by the Picts (who were another variety of celt, they think); further south there were Britons (who spoke a language similar to the ancestor of modern Welsh); various Germanic speaking people were just starting to move into the south east; no-one's too sure about who lived in the Western Isles before the Gaels.
There is not much evidence to suggest that anybody was 'exterminated' by anybody else in Scotland at this period. I imagine it wasn't a barrel of laughs for the people who were squeezed out in one direction or another but that's how humans work, and remember the celts were just as much 'invaders' before then anyway.
I just think it's important not to exaggerate about these things.
Beannachdan leibh,
piobaireag ;-)

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 02:27 AM

Hey"gnu"----do I detect a certain sarcasm, born of contempt for the Sassenach, in your posting? [Perhaps it is not generally known, but the true "sassenach" was a southern Scot---meanoing literally [a man from the south"] The people of Southern Scotland were NOT pictish. They were, in large part, ancient British,and at one racially with the Welsh.The eastern part of the borderlands was infiltrated prior to the advent of the entity called ", Scotland", by Anglo-saxon Northumbrians. Gaelic was the common language in Strathclyde and Galloway right up to the time of Mary Queen of Scots [check the old place-names.] Highland/Lowland bitterness grew out of the very thing which seems to be rumbling in your composition just under the surface----"religion". It boiled up in the turmoil which ended with Culloden and the Clearances. The istigator was a man who had not the least interest in either the welfare or the Independence of the Scottish people, Highland or Lowland.The total focus of Charles Edward Stewart was the iniquitous "Divine Right of Kings", and the gaining of the throne of all the British Isles. Thata mere 25% of the men under arms in the Highlands "flocked" to his banner speaks volumes about the real level of esteem in which he was held.Unlike The Bruce, he succeeded in dividing Scotlandfor the first time since the reign of Malcolm brought the nation together. The men who joined his cause fought like lions---even if probably more than half were from furth of Scotland [commanding General O'Sullivan----?????]and their deeds cannot but be admired. The rousing songs and ballads stemming from the Jacobite period have given a great measure of material for all of us "folkies"---but I Iam still inclined to hold Robert Burns' "Ye Jacobites by Name" in more respect than "Rise and Follow Chairlie"---even if I do relish the singing of it! [ My Grandparents are from Islay----]

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 02:37 AM

Gnu----I have just noted that your posting was a second-hand quote; my apologies for my suspicion of your motives.---A contrite Boab----

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 08:43 AM

I always thought Sassenach was the Gaelic word for Saxon - the Welsh call us Saesneg, and we're east of them, not south.

WassaiL! V

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Noreen
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:09 AM

From this page amongst others

,Sassenach - foreigner

Although "foreigner" is its literal meaning, it is usually reserved for offensively referring to Englishmen.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:18 AM

Just as "Welsh" used to mean foreign in the Germanic languages.

WassaiL! V

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: Fiolar
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 11:34 AM

The word "Sassenach" is derived from the Scottish Gaelic "Sasunach" and Irish "Sasanach" which in turn is derived from the Latin "Saxones" meaning "Saxons."

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: weepiper
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 01:44 PM

The reason it generally refers to the English is that the word for England in Scottish Gaelic is Sasainn. Sasann-ach- (in Gaelic) can just mean something- or someone-from England- as well as being pejorative eg 'foreigner'. -Ach is the standard adjective ending in Gaelic.
Engish Jon would be Iain Sasannach :0)
I'm sorry if anyone thought I was flaming in my earlier post, I didnae mean it like that...

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: iRiShBaBe
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 04:07 PM

it was ireland that influenced scotland not the other way round.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 02:47 AM

I'm learnin'!

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 09:02 AM

It would also be good to avoid just plain wrong "facts" being reported as truth by the pro-British sorts, wouldn't it?

I never cease to be amazed how some English/British folk(s) will always complain about the word "Sassenach" being racist/bigoted. It isn't. In Irish, it is simply the word for an English person. Period. No sinister motive attached to it whatsoever.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: Snuffy
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 09:14 AM

"Sassenach" is alright, but it's the venom behind "Brit" that is as racist/bigoted as the various unsavoury things we've called the Irish over the centuries.

Strange too that the Britons were Celts rather than Saxons, so that Celts insult Saxons by calling them Celts!

WassaiL! V

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: weepiper
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 02:23 PM

Britons were there before (and alongside) Saxons in England. It's a confusing term, granted. Britons spoke proto-Welsh, and Saxons, Danes, Angles, Jutes etc spoke proto-English. Not sure what you meant about Celts calling Saxons Celts?

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: Snuffy
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 06:24 PM

Irish calling English "Brits"

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 06:53 PM

I just don't get this "Brit" thing. It isn't just Irish people who refer to the Brits as Brits--lots of nationalities do, both with and without venom. Just as is true for the term "Yanks".

Considering how awful many racist and bigoted slurs are, these are small potatoes as they say, no?

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 12:47 PM

attach to monymusk thread

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 03:34 PM

Listen to Programme 5 in the Series The Highland Sessions and hear the striking familiarities between the music of the Gael, a great getting together of likeminded people.
This is the best of both cultures, each having gained from the other, that is what it is all about.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 04:24 PM

To understand the relationship between the Gaelic music of Ireland and Highland Scotland (fiddle and stepdance especially) one should look to Cape Breton. Here the people of the clearances settled in mass and they brought their music with them. They became the dominant culture so the language and music survived intact for several generations. At the same time the culture changed through much of Highland Scotland. Today the music of Cape Breton shares with Ireland a drive that was lost in Scotland, but the world has become a smaller place and that is being regained in Scotland. The Gaels, be they Scot or Irish, were one culture as recently as 300 years ago and share many more similarities than differences.
                         Slainte,
                              Obie

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 07:07 PM

Most of the musical influences were indirect. If you look at something like Alois Fleischmann's "Sources of Irish Traditional Music" you'll find a great many Scottish tunes that passed into Irish tradition (far more than the other way).

BUT they were Gaelic and Scots indiscriminately. Many of them were transmitted on paper, since Scottish music publishing became an enormous force after 1750, and itinerant musicians were never many links removed from somebody who could read a copy of Bremner, Daniel Dow, Aird etc. And those anthologists didn't usually separate out their tunes by regional origin (if they even knew it). There would have been no reason for a practicing fiddler to pick out just the "Erse" numbers from a tunebook when visiting Ireland - if a Scots or English tune was interesting they'd surely play it.

There was no distinctive channel that communicated significant amounts of music from Scottish Gaels to Irish Gaels *alone* without involving other cultures. (There must have been some sharing of songs between fishing communities on both sides of the Irish Sea, but it would take detailed linguistic analysis to work out the direction for any one of them).

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 10:55 AM

Gaelic music before the beginning of the 19th century was passed on by ear, through playing or "port a beul". Written notation became a tool for learning tunes but was seldom used during a performance. After 1800 playing styles in Highland Scotland changed to this so called "correct note" form but in turn the soul was stripped from the music. In Ireland and dispora areas like Cape Breton the older Gaelic styles survived.
There have indeed been studies done of the Gaelic influence on the music of Scotland, Ireland, and Cape Breton. People such as Dr. John Shaw of the University of Edinburgh continue to do so.
               Obie

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 11:33 AM

I remember reading a purported history of Ireland which had this to say, generally:

Being unwilling to punish serious wrong-doers with a death sentence(way back in the mists of time), those who dedided and executed the tribal/communal rules decreed BANISHMENT from the tribe/community, and land of same. The "perp" would be taken to one of those points on the northeast coast of Ireland and embarked on a small boat to the coast of Scotland(visible on a clear day from embarkation point?). (I'm assuming this would be an especially barren area, because of its vulnerability to storms from the North Atlantic. Perhaps, in effect, a sentence of death. It seems some of these cultures recognized that it takes cooperative effort for people to survive in ANY circumstances.) Any who survived would have to be tougher(certainly not meaner--the Scots I've met have been wonderful examples of warmth, kindness, and generosity) than the weather and countryside. Those are SOME of the settlers of the land eventually to be bounded on the south by Hadrian's Wall.

Is all this another fairy-tale? Or based on truth? Or what?    Tw

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: dermod in salisbury
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 12:12 PM

I used to stand on the Antrim coast as a youngster looking at the Mull of Kintyre, which seemed so close you had the illusion you could swim across it. No wonder the influence to and fro was great. But much of it relates not so much to the great thorns of history, but bog standard economic migration across a short stretch of water, most recently Irish labourers to Scottish farms and the annual feeing fairs, or to the Glasgow shipyards. But it is wonderful how topics like this always excite old bitternesses. It's a shame our new friends, the Danes (I believe they export bacon and butter) get such a little attention. After all, they went to the trouble of founding Dublin, Wexford, Cork, Limerick etc etc, roughly at the same time they were colonising North East England, large tracks of Scotland, reaching even London in Canute's day. We have so many scary relations in these islands I am suprised people dare broach the subject at all, for fear of turning out, through remote and unsuspected cousins, to be the villain of the piece.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 12:14 PM

And this shows how much we value our traditions in Scotland today.
Giok

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 12:25 PM

Ah, Giok, send the lad here. We'll find places for him to practice. My back yard, for one.             Tw

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: Jon W.
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 01:13 PM

People, people, people. Don't you know that Ireland and Scotland were settled by Hebrews fleeing the destruction of Jerusalem with the prophet Jeremiah at the time of King Zedekiah? That's why those people all sound like they're clearing their throats when they talk.

-) (tongue-in-cheek sign)

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 01:17 PM

That would account for Rabbi Burns!
G,

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: gnu
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 02:48 PM

Poor young Andrew... " "We have received several complaints and a petition signed by local residents referring to excessive noise from the outdoor playing of bagpipes," said the spokeswoman. "

The lad must really need some practice.

Okay, I know, I know. T'was just a joke, okay? I am apalled at this, but, if a petition was circulated, something must be wrong... practices too long at a time... poor timing... what?

I can just imagine what would happen to a Bodhran player... at 20 db!!! A petition would be mild.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Hen Harrier
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 08:58 PM

Guest "Obie", "one should look to Cape Breton".

That's what I've just said on "The Cast" thread, with reference to Mairie Campbell's researching.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 10:42 PM

HH
In recent tears there has been a lot of exchange between Scottish, Irish, and Cape Breton musicians. There was a time when performers from Scotland would come here and tell us that we were playing the music wrong or that it was Irish. Today there is much more respect for older fiddle styles that died out in Scotland. There is also a lot of interest in older piping styles that were preserved here.
                  Obie

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: Kenneth Ingham
Date: 10 Dec 05 - 06:05 AM

We have the Scotch to blame for the religious bigotry that has plagued Ireland. The hatred that has strangled our beautifil isle for generations. The evil Ian Paisley epitomises the descendants of Scotch that infest our land.

Subject: RE: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 10 Dec 05 - 03:35 PM

Subject: RE: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Dec 05 - 03:39 PM

Kenneth while I do see where you are coming from, it still remains a fact that it takes two to start a fight.
Giok

Subject: RE: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 10 Dec 05 - 03:51 PM

Such inflamitory statements are very unfair. Many Scots and people of Scottish descent have great sympathy for the Irish people in the struggle to control their beautiful Island. Highland Scots, both Catholic and Presbyterian suffered much the same fate as the Irish.
Religion is a red herring and not a justification for "The Troubles".
Hatred begets hatred and Paisley deserves to burn in Hell, but still two wrongs never make a right. Music seems able at times to transcend hatred and bigotry so perhaps there is hope someday after Paisley and our friend above are no longer here to fan the flames.
                      Slainte,
                      Obie

Subject: RE: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Dec 05 - 04:42 PM

hear hear!
G.

Subject: RE: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 05 - 07:56 PM

The idea that Cape Breton music is some sort of purely oral survival from 1800 is flatly refuted by what happened to poor Simon Fraser. Having pumped most of his assets into a print run of his collection of Highland music, he shipped it to Canada to sell to the immigrants of Cape Breton - only to find he'd been beaten to it by a plagiarized edition that sold in such numbers nobody wanted the original. Something like 2000 copies.

With that many copies in circulation of a fairly complicated and obscure book, there must have been far more of el-cheapo productions like Aird (or else people simply wouldn't have had the background to read Fraser's notation). So many that there is *no way* any Cape Breton fiddler could have had a repertoire that was not significantly affected by print - original books, manuscript notebooks derived from books, or tunes learned second-hand from somebody who got them off paper. Remember that this was the most productive period of tune composition in Scotland's history - thousands of *new* tunes were emerging, and the way they were getting into circulation was on paper.

Kate Dunlay and David Greenberg's book traces the origin of most of the tunes they found in the Cape Breton repertoire. They had mostly been modified to fit the local idiom, but they had been modified from identifiable versions in Scottish print sources.

Today we think of reading music as some sort of advanced accomplishment compared with reading text. In the late 18th and early 19th centuries, there were people writing or copying music manuscripts reasonably well who could barely write their own names and never spelt a tune title the same way twice. It wasn't an elite skill.

Subject: RE: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 10 Dec 05 - 09:08 PM

Och, guest you miss my point! It is that notation can not express the Gaelic lilt that makes Irish and Cape Breton music so full of life. As I stated above notation has been used for learning tunes but not for playing them. The Fraser, collection, as you state, is well known here and Skinner and the Gows are regarded as Gods. There have also been great composers on this side of the pond such as Dan R MacDonald, Gordon MacQuarrie, and Dan Hughie MacEachern, whose music has returned to Scotland.
David Greenberg is a classically trained violin player who has put, without doubt, a great deal of effort in learning to play fiddle in the Gaelic style of Cape Breton. I have heard him perform a few times and I think that he does this very well. I am sure that he could have easily played the same tunes from sheet music, without any effort , but he comprehends that it just would not be the same.
It is not the tunes themselves, that was lost in Scotland and survived in Cape Breton, but the style of playing them. The thread was discussing the influence of Gaelic on the music of Scotland and Ireland and here that can still be found. Many think that is because the old dance, stepdance in particular, required this playing style, and they are most likely correct.
             Slainte,
               Obie

Subject: RE: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 05:28 PM

I wonder if a corollary of this is that if ian paisley had been a step dancer, history would have been different.

Imagine that, if only his mum had had the foresight to send him to lessons......

Subject: RE: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: Claymore
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 10:32 PM

A couple of comments: While my family was driven out of Scotland to Ireland and then from Ireland to Nova Scotia to Boston (prompting my Father to say it was Newton-Stewart to Newtonards to Newton, Mass.) I have had many occasions to play both Scots and Irish Music.

In August, I did a three week tour with a number of Scottish Country dancers, and as the tour was set up to do authentic dances which were done in certain castles or manor homes in Scotland, I must say that Scottish music is stunning when done with a dance, and there is no more beautiful dance than a well danced strathspey.

Having said that, I noticed that even in Dougie McLeans tavern in Dunkeld, the predominent music played in the pubs was Irish with very few Scots tunes, even on the island of Skye. Yet I don't find the Kerry or step dances half as entertaining as the Scots.

I suspect that, since most of the Irish tunes can be "smoothed" out for Contra dancing and the ballads are always entertaining, the Irish music finds a larger audience. But I would advise anyone who is able, to visit a Scottish Country dance, or attend a Burns Night (Jan 29th in Charlottesville, VA is the best on the East Coast) before casting your vote.

Don Moore

Subject: RE: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 12:43 PM

It is perhaps easier to listen to the music to understand what I have been saying:
On this site you will find a Celtic Colours concert recorded at Glendale, Cape Breton this past October titled "The Music Of The River".
This is the Gaelic music of Scotland as it is played here.
You can listen to the whole concert here on Cape Breton Live Radio and find other performances here as well.
                   Slainte,
                        Obie

http://www.capebretonlive.com/shows/show13.htm

Subject: RE: Scottish influence in Ireland?
From: Stephen R.
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 03:22 PM

No doubt there are some who utter "Brit" with venom, but it's not inherent in the word itself. I am used to hearing it, and using it myself, as a rather affectionate term. Let us not be too quick to take offence (or offense, depending on where you are).

Jews may accuse Ukrainians of anti-Semitism because the Ukrainians call the "Zhydy" and, knowing Russian rather than Ukrainian, they hear this as "kike"; in Russian the proper term is Evrei, and "Zhid" is indeed derogatory. In Ukrainian, "Zhyd" is the standard term for "Jew" and is not at all derogatory. So "Brit" may indeed be a slur somewhere, but not anywhere I have been.

Stephen

Subject: scottland's ethnic groups
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 07:18 PM