Help! Finding stuff on the net

Subject: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: Louisa
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 10:18 AM

Hello

I was wondering if anyone out there might be able to help me. I'm currently researching my MA dissertation on the 2nd English folk revival (i.e. late 60s/70s, MacColl, Lloyd, Carthy, folk-rock and all that) in relation to today's scene in the UK and need to access any music industry statistics that relate to the folk/roots sector.

I've been told that very little exists but I'm not ready to give up just yet and seeing as you all seem pretty clued up with regards to the Internet (I can't even do blue clickies) I thought someone might be able to help even if it's just a starting point or a label/distributor contact.

I hate statistics but unfortunately I'm supposed to include them....

Thanks very much. Great site by the way, certainly makes the time pass at work.

Louisa

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 10:49 AM

any music industry statistics that relate to the folk/roots sector

Any chance of being a bit more specific? Are you after sales figures, audience figures, etc?

A lot would also depend, I expect, on how you define folk/roots...

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: Louisa
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 11:01 AM

Specifically record sales figures and perhaps radio listeners. I am interested in live audience numbers but I think it is highly unlikely that anything than perhaps individual festival ticket sales numbers exist. As far as definitions are concerned, my dissertation is specifically focussing on music with an easily identifiable root in a tradition, that is or has been played in England in the last 30 - 40 years. Very wide I know as you could easily say all music has a root in a tradition.

I think it depends more on how the music industry defines folk/roots rather than how I define it.

Thanks

Louisa

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 11:09 AM

You may find some historical stats here

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: GeorgeH
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 11:50 AM

The two places I can think of which are run by people who might have this sort of thing are

fRoote (Folk Roots as was) at:

http://www.froots.demon.co.uk/ (Ian Anderson)

And Musical Traditions (which has a link from the Folk Roots site). (Rod Stradling).

I really can't think of any meaningful statistics in this area - for example, such a high proportion of record sales have been of material produced on small labels and distributed outside the main distribution chain that any published figures are likely to be meaningless.

However there was someone working on a History of Topic Records. Since they are a "constant" from the period you're interested in through to the present day they might have some worthwhile data. (Although I also hear tell that their "record keeping" leaves something to be desired.) I'd expect there to be something about this on the Mus Trad site.

The other possibilty is to choose some festivals where some of the performers from "back then" are booked, take along your minidisc recorder, and sit them down in a bar . . No less statistically valid, and a hell of a lot more fun.

G.

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: Louisa
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 12:03 PM

Thanks guys!

Sitting some performers down in a bar at a festival is already part of the planned agenda, although it will have to be with a tape recorder. Minidisc is slightly beyond my budget!

Thanks for the charts site - that's quite a useful resource in general that I was totally unaware of.

I'm already using the Folk Roots site and Mustrad but I wish I could get hold of FR back issues more easily. One photopcopy of an article costs £2, and there's at least 100 I could do with reading (some of which I probably have already)! I may as well get the minidisc player at that rate. Topic is a great idea and I will contact them - to be honest any records are better than none at all.

Finding statistics is a huge problem for the reasons you've mentioned, and I've already been told by a leading member of MODAL that nothing reliable exists so I guess my tutor may have to like it or lump it.

Louisa

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: GeorgeH
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 12:32 PM

I have a complete set of Folk Roots . . mostly in order of issue number. Within reason I could do a certain amount of photocopying for you, if you can let me know what articles you want. You can email me on ghawesatadvaopticaldotcom

One possibility . . Does anyone know for what years EFDSS published the Yearbook? You could probably obtain some stats of number of clubs/artists/whatever listed in there. I guess they hold the set of "back numbers" in their library. Trouble is, you then have to consider the extent to which the EFDSS correlates with the Folk Revival as a whole.

If (as, from my encounters with "Academia" lead me to suspect) the real "point" is just to get SOME valid statistics into the dissitation then you might try looking at some of the longest-established events (Festivals, Folk Clubs) and look at statistics for them on an event-by-event basis.

An interesting bit of data gathering would be to contrast the decline in the number of folk clubs with the rise in the number of Art Centres (who mostly put on some folk performers) . . but I can't think of any way of getting reliable data on the "decline of the folk club . . "

G.

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: Louisa
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 04:38 AM

Dear George

Wow thanks! I've got it all the articles I need written down so once I've figured out which ones I don't already have then I'll email you. Mudcat is truly fab!

EFDSS is a good idea and I was planning on going to their library during the summer. Do you know if you have to arrange a visit in advance?

I've also contacted Mrs Casey and I'm waiting to get some stuff from them so maybe I might be able to get some stats in after all.

Thanks again

Louisa

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: pavane
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 05:14 AM

Let us know if you find statistics on Celtic Music! See thread The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: GeorgeH
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 05:34 AM

Like . . the frequency of transatlantic rows about it??

G.

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: Louisa
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 05:37 AM

Goodness me I didn't all of this had been going on.

Louisa

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 06:29 AM

Details of opening hours at the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library are available at  http://www.efdss.org/.  You might want to contact Malcolm Taylor, the librarian, a little in advance if you're after specialised stuff.  Contact details at the website.

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: pavane
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 06:36 AM

BTW Malcolm - did you get my recent private message?

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: DonMeixner
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 07:08 AM

I would think that the BBC has records of listeners for shows with in the time period you have mentioned. I imagine the Ewan Macoll radio ballads would be of interest. The Traveling People, Sing The Fishing. Et al.

Don

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: GeorgeH
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 08:09 AM

A problem with BBC listening figures is that different figures, at different times in the past, have been computed in different ways. And, indeed, there's been no consistency in "Folk-related" output. (Except that, for as long as I can remember, one has thought "It can't get any worse", only for the BBC to prove one wrong! Recent changes on Radio 3 being a happy exception . .)

Not quite sure how the Radio Ballads fit in, other than aa an interresting "aisde" . . wonderful though they are! (They'd be far more relevent to any MA on the development of broadcasting, for all sorts of reasons.)

G.

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 09:02 AM

Regarding research in general, you may be surprised to find out how much stuff is available on the Internet. A couple of years ago I helped my sister-in-law do some research for a screenplay she was planning to write about the Astor Place Riot, which happened in New York in, I think, 1848. Before she mentioned it, I had never HEARD OF the Astor Place Riot, but starting with that name and the names of 3 individuals who were involved, I found about 50 sites that contained relevant, useful, and apparently reliable information.

I recommend using Google as your search engine.

I believe the British Library has a searchable online catalog, and so does the American Library of Congress. Those are the BIG ones. Your local university library probably has one, too.

All the major record labels have web sites, and since many albums from that era are still in print (as CD's), you may be able to find some useful information about them there. If what you want isn't on their web site, you can email them and ask.

One more thing: When you're finished, I imagine many Mudcatters would be interested in reading your paper. You could post a link to it if it exists somewhere else on the 'net, or, since the Mudcat Café is allegedly a magazine containing articles and such, you could email Max to see if he wants to create a prominent place for it. I've never seen anyone post a long article in the forum, but it could be done.

I think we ought to encourage serious scholarship. So much of what you see on Mudcat is blather.

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 09:24 AM

the other search engine that truly rivals Google, is http://alltheweb.com/ absolutely amazing...Google has the official 'newsgroups' search, but for anything else, http://alltheweb.com/ may be as good or better.

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: IanC
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 09:37 AM

I've said this before, but I like Vivisimo - especially for searches likely to bring back loads of stuff. That's because it "intelligently" categorises the results which can save loads of searching through random hits.

If there isn't likely to be a lot of data then I always use WebFerret, free from FerretSoft offline. It searches everything.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: IanC
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 09:44 AM

Hell. FerretSoft.

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 10:15 AM

ah, me! What will they do next? Vivisimo looks like an amazing tool!...Not for everything but.......

(when I look at the list of search engines, I am reminded of the old saying, "A man with a good watch always knows what time it is; a man with TWO watches is never sure.")

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: GeorgeH
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 10:26 AM

Jim, your remark "So much of what you see on Mudcat is blather." is, of course, true . . (Guilty, m'lud . .) (is that why it caused a BG on this reader's face?).

Sadly, the same is even more true of the Internet at large, and Google and the like have no mechanism for distinguishing between useful info. and "blather" - which is where the real challenge lies . .

Well, perhaps the real challenge is setting up a Google search which produces a manageable number of "hits", but that's another issue again . .

The Internet makes it possible to get things wrong faster than ever before . .

G.

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: pavane
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 10:53 AM

Theodore Sturgeon once stunned an SF (SciFi, they call it now) convention by saying 90% of SF was crud. But then, he went on to say, 90% of EVERYTHING is crud. Never a truer word spoken.

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: Louisa
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 11:01 AM

Well, you never know my dissertation might end up being blather and/or crud too! But I hope not. Anyway cheers guys for all your very helpful suggestions - most of which had not occurred to me (but some had!).

As long as I think its good I'll be happy to share the dissertation with other mudcatters! I wish I'd thought of mentioning this before as it's great to sit back and for all these brilliant ideas to flood in. The dissertation will write itself at this rate! (This might be wishful thinking on my part!)

Right got to get back to it!

Louisa

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 11:16 AM

the neat thing is, if 90% is crud, at least the total items in the 10% keeps rising as long as we keep at it, hmmmm? and Mudcat helps the 10% get bigger.

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 11:17 AM

If there weren't so much blather, there probably wouldn't be so much good stuff either. Some people are attracted by the blather and occasionally contribute to the good stuff, too -- and vice versa.

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: Louisa
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 11:24 AM

perhaps a new thread is required - Is Mudcat crud, blather, both, neither and in what percentage?

Louisa

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: IanC
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 11:33 AM

Oh no you don't ... Mudcat's full of them threads!!!

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 11:39 AM

Perhaps Rod Stradling at Musical Traditons could connect you with Mike Brocken, author of "The British Folk Revival" and "The Tarnished Image" which are currently accessible at Rod's site.

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 11:47 AM

The Tarnished Image

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 11:49 AM

The British Folk Revival

Subject: RE: Help! Finding stuff on the net
From: Louisa
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 12:03 PM

Cheers Brian and Russ! Got these already.

love Louisa