BS: Cuba

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 09:30 AM

LH! Your last posting was the most interesing and informative I have heard yet on this subject, especially your profound comments on "Guns pointed at the poor" funded by the U.S.

I guess I never thought about such exploitations by dictators. Seems logical that this would occur though.

I still say the Communist Government is a worse system however because of its Articles and Communist Constitution.

Cuba is the enemy because it is Communist. (Communism vs. Capitalism), not just because of its dictatorship style government.

I will however freely admit I am a radical and in the minority in my opinion of the travel restrictions.

I would love to visit Cuba too! But I would do so only if if the country some day became free (meaning no more Castro OR Batista Style Whore Houses)

I suppose everyone thinks that this is the wish of a "Green American"

God knows it is my hope and prayer that Cuba may some day be different than it currently is!

Thanks!

A more informed and humbled Dewey!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Shields Folk
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 09:48 AM

I know I am setting myself up to be knocked down but how free are poor Americans who can't afford suitable health care or legal representation.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 10:02 AM

Doug R - Did I say the USA is "a terrible place"? I don't think I did. I was recently on a trip down to New York and Pennsylvania, and found it really quite a nice place. I think I like Canada a tad better, but still the USA is in many respects a fine place to be.

The reason Latin Americans are "busting their asses" to get to the USA (and Canada!) is:

1. there's a lot more money to be made in North America

2. there's more social and political freedom for the individual

3. there's a richer consumer lifestyle available

This is obvious. Cuba is no exception to the rest of Latin America, in that its people would like to live in North America, where the opportunities are greater. I've covered all this ground before...

It is not that the USA is a "terrible place", it is that its policies in other places outside its own borders have a terrible effect, in many cases.

Remember "all men are created equal"? Somehow that didn't used to apply to Indians, did it? Or blacks? Or women?

It doesn't seem to presently apply to 3rd World people or non-Americans either.

That was my point, not that the USA is a terrible place. It's a pretty good place that could use improvements in its foreign policy.

I am pleased to hear that the travel restrictions are being lifted.

Dewey - I find your comments refreshingly reasonable, in that you're willing to consider both sides of an issue.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: DougR
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 03:05 PM

But those inequalities you point out, LH, have or are being corrected in the U. S. It would not be correct, of course, were I to say that ALL inequalities have been erased. They haven't. But the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and legislation since then has gone a very long way toward leveling the playing field. Too some degree, there would be those who would argue that it has gone too far. For example, ask some Anglo pre-law students with excellent grades who were denied entry to the University of Michigan law school in order to attain a "balance" in attendees. Those folks are not discriminated against?

I would venture to say that there is not a country on earth that does not have it's own racial or religious problems within it's own boundries.

I haven't heard of anyone breaking their ass to get into Cuba, have any of you?

And Dewey, my friend, you did an excellent job of telling us what you don't like about the United States, yet profess to love it. What do you like about the United Sates?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 06:31 PM

Doug - Yes. Che Guevara busted his ass to get into Cuba, and risked his life on Cuba's behalf repeatedly during the revolution. He came from Argentina. There have been others as well. Generally speaking, however, immigration is from poor countries to rich ones, not the other way around.

Your point about the Anglo students is well taken. They are being discriminated against. I have repeatedly opposed such racially motivated quota systems as being unjust, and in themselves discriminatory...fascism masquerading under the banner of liberalism or political correctness...so we agree on that one.

And yes, there has been much progress toward ending the old inequities in the USA.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: toadfrog
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 07:50 PM

Doug R. is talking reasonable stuff here, although I probably differ on the fine points. But from GUEST, I would like to have some kind of explanation why "communist" dictatorships are worse than other dictatorships. Can it be because "communists" purport to speak for poor people? Or because they do, after all, do more than other dictatorships to promote health and literacy among the population? What have you got against literacy? Or because they challenge preexisting privileges? Kerala has at times had a democratically elected "communist" government. So has the City of Rome, I think. Are they our "enemies" too?

Hey GUEST, didn't we defeat communism by buying all those $500 toilet seats? Is China "communist" just because the ruling party, acting out of inertia, calls itself a "Communist Party"? To paraphrase that old song, I'd say they "preach communism, but they practice fascism, to preserve capitalism by the (party cadres)." What ya got against that, GUEST?

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 04:57 AM

Well DougR, from my postings, I'm sure you will note that I love the U.S. Constitution, which has brought us the most stable and peaceful government in the history of the world. I love our free press, which keeps tabs on our government officials, I love our right to a lawyer I love the fact that we have the right to vote for who we want to represent us. I love the free entreprise system we have for its opportunities helping improve the lives of our fellow citizens through the competitive value of effort, while and the same time making us prosperous. In America unlike many countries I have no one else to blame but myself if I fail in life. I love the fact that my future is in my own hands, not in somebody elses. I love the Rugged Individualism and the diversity of of cultural and religious beliefs.

Thanks Little Hawk! I am relatively young and wasn't even alive during the Cuban Revolution. While I am still not a fan of it, I do want to thank you for opening up my eyes to the broader issues of Latin America.

Like many hear, I doubt most of us have ever spent much time researching all the beliefs we hold so dear. The politicians love this, becasue the entire world is ruled by deception.

If Ronald Reagan for example can call his trained and Armed Gourillas, FREEDOM FIGHTERS, and get Americans to believe this, he has won a victory: who could be against anyone fighting for FREEDOM.

Yes America is awesome! I know because I have lived here all my life and have had (by world standards) the most. social, religous and economic prosperity and freedom anybody could ever possibly enjoy.

That is because of the Genius of our founding fathers, not necessarily because our policies or government officals. But WE have a government, of the PEOPLE, by the PEOPLE and FOR the PEOPLE. AND WE SHOULD ALL BE GRATEFUL AND THANK GOD THAT WE DO! That is why I love America!

But this government will only remain sound, only if the people remain actively involved in their government. Digging deep into corruption, putting pressure on our congreesman etc. Even then, there is so much to do still. And much that cannot and probably will never be done to solve the worlds problems.

By the way, I have learned it is important to remove your ego entirely when you communication with others. Open your mouth very little or your ignorance may show on the issue you hold near and dear.

Shut your mouth long enough to learn something. So many times we THINK we have all the answers, But in reality we know very little. HUMILTY IS A VIRTUE AND IS HOW WE GROW AND LEARN AS HUMAN BEINGS if your wrong admit it! If you think your right, better make sure you are before you talk, as you are likely to embarrass yourself, should you get something wrong. No one knows everything so be sure to learn from others. Its the only way you will EVER learn anything.

THANKS LH for improving my education on this difficult issue.

I will keep my ears open in greater proportion than my mouth next time.

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST,Guest Dewey
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 05:36 AM

I must be honest Toad. I know very little about Guatamala and other nations Little Hawk mentioned so I probably had no business making that comparison.

I think Communist Cuba is worse because of the O.S.S. and C.D.R. It is a tattle-tell big brother Orwellian "we know what's best for you" government, I couldn't stand living under this type of government, and it is merely my OPINION that is worse that the other South American dictatorships. After all there are no travel restrictions in these other nations, and though I may on ocassion distrust our government I do believe it has an obligation not to send its citizen into dangerous places around the globe, and the state department put Cuba on the head of this list.

Politically speaking though guys... You've caught me with my pants down! After listening to LH a bit more, and with a little more research on South America, I may have to retract this statement. But I still hate Communism, and it amazes me that individuals who profess the joys of social justice would also embrace communism, There is not any justice in communism at all yet people seem to think it is a mere philosophical difference. NO DUE PROCESS! is this JUSTICE?

Dewey who still is probably talking too much, but is also learning a little too!

Thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 12:29 PM

The best way to find out about any place is to actually go there, but most of us are limited in funds and opportunities to do that.

As regards communism, it takes many different forms. It isn't just one monolithic "ism". There is nothing intrinsic in communism which denies having civil rights, freedom, or a democratic political system.

In practice, however, the originating communist system in Russia took power in a country which had always been ruled by autocrats (in the person of the Czar and the nobility). There had never been anything like real democracy in Russia. No sooner did that communist revolution succeed than it was attacked from outside by most of the major powers of the world at that time...through direct military intervention. Those attacks (around 1919 to 1920 approx.) failed to bring down the communists, but they did cause them to become very paranoid, militarist, and severely authoritarian in response.

When Stalin, one of the most paranoid dictators in history, took over the Soviet Union the situation was greatly worsened.

When the Nazis invaded Russia, the situation was worsened again.

When the Cold War started, it became even more dangerous than before.

These things have to be seen in their historical context.

There is nothing intrinsically authoritarian about either socialism or communism...or for that matter capitalism...but they can all become authoritarian under certain forms of leadership and certain conditions. Those conditions were endemic in Russia, and in China.

The socialism I have seen in Cuba is more benign than the fascism I have seen in Mexico. Far fewer police, far less poverty, less personal danger, and less fear.

That's why I admire what Cuba has accomplished, and in the face of far greater obstacles than Mexico, which has not been embargoed.

This does not mean that Cubans have the same freedoms as Canadians or Americans. They definitely do not.

On the other hand, they struck me as more mature and in touch with life than most North Americans...perhaps because they have not grown up on music videos and TV and Nintendo, but on dealing with actual reality...like cooking, farming, building your own bicycle out of parts, fixing your own car up, and all the hands-on realities of life.

All I can say is they impressed me a whole lot. And actually, so did the Mexicans, in their own way. They could teach North Americans quite a bit about self-reliance, and about community.

The fact about North America is that we have all been spoiled rotten by an excessive lifestyle, but we don't know it, because we simply take it for granted. You've got to go to a poorer place, and actually live with the local people, before you notice the difference.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Airto
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 07:30 AM

Thanks very much, all of you, for a very worthwhile debate.

DougR, will you keep us posted on how that Bill you mentioned gets on with the Senate and the President?