Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Aug 23 - 11:54 AM

The ubiquitous Oscar Brand recorded his "Crusher Bailey" about 1955-56 on "Bawdy Songs and Backroom Ballads, Vol. II."

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Aug 23 - 11:38 AM

Robert Graves, Good-bye to All That (1930) [passage app. written in May, 1915]:

“[A very young Welsh soldier] appealed to me as an arbiter. ‘You’ve been to college, sir, haven’t you?’ I said, yes, I had, but so had Crawshay Bailey’s brother Norwich.’ This was held to be a wonderfully witty answer. Crawshay Bailey is one of the idiotic songs of Wales. (Crawshay Bailey himself ‘had an engine and he couldn't make it go,’ and all his relations in the song had similar shortcomings. Crawshay Bailey's brother Norwich, for instance, was fond of oatmeal porridge, and was sent to Cardiff college, for to get a bit of knowledge.) After that I had no trouble with the platoon at all.”

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Mar 21 - 08:29 PM

Joe, see the following post:

Subject: OK, we'll try, Page 1
From: Abby Sale
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 08:08 PM

Perhaps that's why the crosslinking.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Mar 21 - 08:21 PM

I see this thread is crosslinked to "Cosher Bailey's Engine." I'm sure there must be a good reason for that (since I do most of the crosslinking), but I can't figure it out.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 04:42 AM

When my husband first learnt it,in the 1980's the Welsh singer left it as Johnny Fach Fawr - Johny big and small - although she sang the rest in English.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 07:52 AM

"You Jack Hughes and the miller gripping"

Probably Hugh Jack Hugh and the miller Griffin

Hugh (ap) Jack (ap) Hugh. Maybe they couldn't download the ap.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: GUEST,interestedchap
Date: 19 Mar 17 - 12:53 PM

Sorry to dig up this thread, but I've been looking in the Welsh newspaper archive for Hob Y Deri Dando lyrics and there are quite a few versions, although it isn't always clear that they are songs rather than poems.

This one seems fairly complete from 1894:

Bu'm yn caru lodes landeg
Hob a diri dando,
Beunydd ar ei hoi yn rhedeg-
Dyna ganu eto;
Tybiais hon yn rhosyn Saron-
Sian, fwyn Sian,
Troes yn waeth na dalen poethion-
Sian fwyn, mawr fu fy nghwyn
Am danat ti, fy ngeneth fwyn.

Ar ryw noswaith deg yn llawen-
Hob a diri dando,
Rhodiwn gyda'r feinir fwynwen-
Dyna ganu eto;
Rhoes fy mraich yn dyn am dani-
Sian, fwyn Sian,
Melus odiaeth oedd ei chwmni-
Sian fwyn, main yw dy drwyn,
Mae'th lygaid fel dwy seren fwyn.

Gwenai Sian yn lion a siriol-
Hob a diri dando,
Aethum innau yn fwy gwrol-
Dyna ganu eto;
Ac ymdrechais gyrhaedd cusan-
Sian, fwyn Sian,
Heb fawr feddwl digio'm rhian-
Sian fwyn, mawr fydd fy nghwyn
Os digio wnai, fy ngeneth fwyn.

Ond, cell, fi hi waeddai'n filain-
Hob a diri dando, "You have crushed my bonnet, villain"-
Dyna drwbwl eto;
Gwaeddais innau yn fy nghiedi,
Ow, Sian fwyn,
Aros mi rof dal am dani-
Sian fwyn, ystyria 'nghwyn,
Fe wnaf unpeth er dy fwyn.

Ar ei hoi canlynais encyd-
Hob a diri dando,
Gau dd'weyd, "Gwrando, fy anwvlyd"
Dyna ganu eto;
Dyma gefais i'm cysuro-
Ow, Sian fwyn,
"Now, begone, you clumsy fellow;"-
Sian fwyn, cam yw dy drwyn, Mae'th lygaid fel dwy ganwyll frwyn.

Wei, ffarwel y ferch dafod ddrwg-
Hob a diri dando,
Dim i mi yw'th wen a/th gilwg-
Dyna ganu eto;
Gallaf fyw yn eithaf hebot-
Sian, fwyn Sian,
Nid wy'n hidio nydwydd ynot-
Sian fwyn, gad fi i 'nghwyn,
Rhed dithau'n syth ar ol dy drwyn.

Ar fy mawd rhois glee yn wrol-
Hob a diri dando,
A dychwelais adre'n siriol-
Dyna ganu eto;
Cymerais Iw cyn myn'd i 'ngwely-
Sian, fwyn Sian,
Nad awn byth at ferch ond hyny-
Sian fwyn, darfu 'nghwyn
A'r cur a gefais er dy fwyn.

I. G. Ab DAFYDD.

I am no good at singing in Welsh, but this seems to fit the tune I know.

from here: http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3587374/3587387/29

I have also found much older uses of the phrase Hob Y Deri Dando but the structure of the song/poem seems different.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 03 Feb 12 - 04:56 AM

Perhaps Morris is saying, 'this is a song, and we used in as a chanty' which isn't the same thing as saying, 'this is a chanty'.

I should clarify. Chanty, folk song, popular song, etc. aren't necessarily exclusive categories. --Well, not in the language I or Hugill is using. For these purposes, if it was used as a work song reasonably consistently, no matter how it originated, then it was a chanty. (Leave aside my speculations about the historical meanings of 'chanty' at earlier points -- that is just related to historical development ideas, not this point.) So if people were singing, for instance, "Hob y Deri Dando" at the capstan, then it *was* a chanty, too (though of course it was primarily known as a folk/popular song).

Stan Hugill's approach was to be very inclusive. If he had *any* reliable information or good reason to believe that a song had been used for work on ships, he included it among the shanty repertoire.

Now that I see your list of Davies' adapted shanties (thanks, sian!), I believe that Hugill would have seen that but not included those songs among the repertoire as shanties because they were new creations, not sung by sailors. However, the three Welsh-language songs that he did include were included on the basis of the testimony of his informants that they were sung as work songs. I have no reason to doubt that they were actually sung as chanties. Moreover, the Welsh-language verses/versions would have been specifically what his informants said were sung when being used as shanties. (In other words, he would not have been so presumptuous to present non-chanty versions, pulled from the common folk singing practice, as shanty versions.)

To belabor the point: Morris is saying 'this is that famous song, you know? Well, we used it as a chanty. [Which for Hugill's and my purposes = we can count it as a chanty] And here's how it went when we sang it as a chanty."

So I believe Hugill provides genuine evidence that at least three Welsh songs -- sung in Welsh language -- were chanties (regardless of their origins). The statement of Davies that there were no Welsh-language shanties is what caused me to question that.

The "Marco Polo" verse might not actually be that hard to track down; I was just wondering if it was an obvious thing, to anyone reading this thread. Trying to rule out J. Glyn Davies as the source (Dr Price's post seemed somewhat suggestive that it may have been.) Chanty singing in the revival context is very much a "broken" tradition, in the sense that if something from the oral tradition did not go down in a book (or on a recording, less often), then it disappeared. Then, that was picked up again by singers with the book or recordings as the sources. Not all, but perhaps the majority of verses that people sing in the newly developed oral tradition can be traced to some book or recording. As a possible case in point, "Rownd yr Horn", from what sian has said, may be simply revived having used Hugill's text as the source. It's likely (but not certain -- I am not killing myself over it) that the "Marco polo" verse will turn up in a published source at at least I will find a recording that popularized it.

So, my hypothesis is that if the Welsh had this song tradition which could be so easily adapted to the work at hand on board, it would be easy enough to use their indigenous tradition and, if someone wanted to explain them using the word 'chanty, shanty' … yeh; ok. No skin off our noses.

I tend to agree. This would be similar to the case of other non-English-language "shanties".

>>Hugill continues: Sometimes 'Borth' was sung about instead of London, with 'torth' (loaf) as the rhyming word in the second line.

Pardon? Apart from that changing the meter, it makes no sense. 'On the road as I was going to Borth, I met a loaf tailor.' He either didn't know whereof he spoke, or he made a balls-up of explaining what he meant.

Oops, sorry, that was in reference to the first verse of the song (which I didn't write out)...which makes reference to a woman swallowing a "brick". Here she would be swallowing a loaf.

And yes, the 'n' in "Hob y..." is just randomness...it's how Hugill wrote it out, though he did know the real name, too. So he was likely describing how it was specifically sung to him.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: sian, west wales
Date: 02 Feb 12 - 07:06 PM

>> And thank you to Mike for supplying the source info about the dearth of Welsh chanties. … You might be aware that I am very interested in chanties, especially in their development. So I find it intriguing that there were no or very few Welsh ones, for two reasons.

Hmm. I went after some other notes on other Welsh words to this tune. Some more interesting points:

Dr Evans' (above) father, who was a sailor for 18 years, said that, (my translation from Welsh) 'there was much singing of Welsh popular songs in the foc's'le … but Dr Evans doesn't remember him ever mentioning specifically work songs. But, here was a sight, at last, in the College library, shanty words that were sung while raising anchor. At least, that's how the evidence appeared on paper.' So, how I read these notes (and the greater piece from which they come) is that he feels that Welsh language shanties existed but weren't recorded. Maybe there weren't a lot of them, but they did exist.

The other thing which struck me is that "Happy now we are all, my boys" is typical of the macaronic chorus found in Welsh songs. They were English phrases that were repeated phonetically and, inevitably, mixed up. Dr Evans feels (and he is the expert) that the original came from 'Happy New Year, all my boys' … which puts an interesting slant on the song, doesn't it?

>>I am still unclear where the English-lang. "Marco Polo" verse comes from. Did Davies write it?

Someone might know the answer but it's a bit like asking where any rugby verses come from. "Author Unknown" would be my guess.

>>I'm not yet in the position to really critique Hugill in this case, i.e. as to whether he was being disingenuous or failed in his critical duties.

Dr Evans knew Hugill, I think. He might be willing to talk to you about this. I could ask him …

>> There were some shipboard work song traditions prior to and concurrent with "chanties" that were in other languages, but if one looks really closely, they can be distinguished from the phenomenon called chanties – at a point.

The idea that the Welsh mostly sang currently popular songs (and hymns would fall into that category) would work with that theory.

>>So please accept my apologies for any "butchering" of the language.

Easily corrected. Just find yourself a Welsh speaker.

>>Mochyn Du

Remember, Y Mochyn Du was written about 1854 so those specific verses would fall into the 'pop song' category above. I'm not sure if the author (John Owen, who became a minister and was deeply embarassed by the song in his old age) also wrote the tune or used an existing tune. I'll try to find out for you.

>>So are we to assume "H.B. Jones" gave the "folk song" version to Hugill, and Hugill felt the license to call it a chanty form? Or should we assume that Jones presented it, w/ Welsh words, as a chanty?

I can't answer that but Y Mochyn Du is sung just about everywhere by just about everyone in Welsh speaking Wales. Hugill would have heard it frequently as a popular pub song. Jones would know that.

>>Hob-y-Derri(n)-Dando

Not sure where the 'n' comes from but, apart from that …

>>There is in Nevin a light ale, boys,

I think 'light' doesn't really convey what the verse is saying. These kind of verses are considered witty if they say contrasting, impossible things. So to say the beer is 'sallow, fusty' and then praise it by saying it's both food and drink is thought to be humourous.

>>The start of another Welsh verse is given, from "Bill Morris":
>>Ar y fford wrth fynd i Lundain,
>>Mi gwrddais a theiliwr llawen.

That's the first verse of a humourous song usually sung to another tune, with a different chorus.   But see below re: verses.

>>Hugill continues: Sometimes 'Borth' was sung about instead of London, with 'torth' (loaf) as the rhyming word in the second line.

Pardon? Apart from that changing the meter, it makes no sense. 'On the road as I was going to Borth, I met a loaf tailor.' He either didn't know whereof he spoke, or he made a balls-up of explaining what he meant.

>>So again he seems to imply that a veteran seaman, "Bill Morris," presented a Welsh form as a chanty.

Perhaps Morris is saying, 'this is a song, and we used in as a chanty' which isn't the same thing as saying, 'this is a chanty'.

>>Rownd yr Horn

I now realize that I know surprising little about this one, 'though we sing it constantly in sessions.

Re: the origins of the songs published by J. Glyn Davies, let me just give you a list:

Fflat Huw Puw(Huw Puw's Flat): Tune, 'Dydd Cyntaf o Awst' being played here by Stephen Rees and Huw Roberts.

Ca^n Huw Puw (Huw Puw's Song): Tune, "Miss Tickletoby kept a school"

Gadael Tir (Leaving Land): Tune, 'A-roving'

Tywydd Mawr (Heavy Weather): Tune, 'Difyrrwch Ifan Delynwr' harp tune

Codi Angor (Weighing Anchor): Tune, 'Across the Western Ocean'

Gyrru 'Mlaen i Bortinllaen (Riding hard to Portinllaen): Tune, 'Visen om Palle', Danish trad.

Yn Harbwr Corc (In Cork Harbour): Tune 'Good morning, Mr Tapscott'

Hwylio Adre (Homeward Bound): Tune, 'Good-byd, fare you well'

Santiana: Tune, 'Oh, Santiana, blow your horn'

Mo^r Tir (Ground Swell): Tune, 'Oh poor old man his horse will die' (Dr Price may know more about this)

Dafydd Jones: Tune, 'Sally Brown'

Portinllaen: Tune, 'The Happy Miller'

Longau Caernarfon (The ships of Caernarfon): Tune, Norwegian trad.

Ca^n y Fronfraith (The throstle's song): J.G.D.

Diwrnod Cario Gwair (Hay harvest day): J.G.D.

Be Gefaist Ti'n Fwyd? (What had you to eat?): Tune, Danish trad.

Robin ar y Rhiniog (Robin on the threshold): Tune, trad. Welsh

Hwre^ am Gei Caernarfon (Hurrah for Caernarfon Quay): Tune, 'Rio Grande'

Diofal yw'r Aderyn (Carefree is the bird): Tune from Sweden

Carlo (dog's name): Tune, Samoan chant

Dewryn (dog's name): Tune, J.G.D.

Teg oedd yr awel (Fair was the breeze): J.G.D.

Mae'r Gwynt yn Deg (The wind is fair): Tune, 'A long time ago'

Rowndio'r Horn (Rounding the Horn): tune, 'Tommy's gone to Ilo' (not to be confused with the other song, Rownd yr Horn)

Ffarwel San Salvador (Farewell San Salvador): tune, 'Blow the man down'

Y Llong a^'r Hwyliau Gwynion (The ship with the white sails): Tune, 'Blow,boys, bully boys, blow'

Y Drol Fach Felen (The little yellow cart): Tune, 'Whiskey is the life of man'

Heibio Ynys Sgogwm (Past the Isle of Skokholm): Tune, 'Boney was a warrior'

Bryniau Iwerddon (The hills of Ireland): tune, 'Haul away, Joe'

Robin Sio^n: Tune, 'Ranzo'

Brig y Bercin (The Brig Bercin): Tune, last bars of 'A-rovin' expanded by JGD

Golau Enlli (Bardsey Light): Tune, JGD

Ffarwel, hen Bethau (Farewell, beloved things): Tune, 'Lusty gallant'

Yn Harbwr San Francisco (in San Francisco Harbour): Tune, 'The girl I left behind me'

Cerdd y Genweiriwr (The angler's song): Tune with changes, old Languedocian

Dwy a Dimeu (Twopence ha'penny): Tune, Swedish trad.

O Quae Mutatio Rerum! (Oh how things change): Tune, 'O alte Burschenherrlichkeit' German student song

Y Sgwner Tri Mast (the three-masted schooner): Tune, 'Spanish Ladies'

Owen Dau Funud (Half a Jiff Owen): Tune, JGD

Noson Aflawen (The noisy night): Tune, JGD

Clwt y Dawns (The Dancing Green): Tune, JGD

Y Meddyg Gwych (The splendid Doctor): Tune, 'Pant Corlan yr W^yn, Welsh trad.

Edrych Tuag Adre (Looking homewards): Tune, 'Shenandoah'

Meibion Adda (Sons of Adam): Tune, Danish trad.

Finally, I would like to add something – including a hypothesis I've only just come up with – on Welsh folk song.

Welsh folk song, as a body of work, has a really high proportion of 4 line verses. Of these, a very great number have a burden/refrain either at the end of each verse, or every other line within the verse ("Deck the halls…" good example). There are also quite a few with a repeated line. Plus, the Welsh just love folk songs which gives everyone a chance to join in as some point or another. These were sung in the fields, in the labourers' quarters on farms, in quarries, etc. They were quite often sung in competition, with people making up verses as the song progressed. These verse forms, and the situations in which they were used, go back to at least the 1500s, and in some cases much farther.

So, my hypothesis is that if the Welsh had this song tradition which could be so easily adapted to the work at hand on board, it would be easy enough to use their indigenous tradition and, if someone wanted to explain them using the word 'chanty, shanty' … yeh; ok. No skin off our noses.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 02 Feb 12 - 02:17 AM

Brilliant work, sian! – Can't believe you found it. Thank you for the time and effort. You have contributed something to all who might use Stan Hugill's book which, as I said, is missing the complete verse. And thank you to Mike for supplying the source info about the dearth of Welsh chanties.

I am still unclear where the English-lang. "Marco Polo" verse comes from. Did Davies write it?

I am going to drift slighty off; hopefully no one minds.

You might be aware that I am very interested in chanties, especially in their development. So I find it intriguing that there were no or very few Welsh ones, for two reasons.

First reason is that I think Stan Hugill leads one to believe that "Welsh chanties", though not something huge, were nonetheless something significant. Such an impression led me to include "Welsh" among the languages for chanties in an article that I wrote. I am interested here because I am engaged in an on-going critique of Hugill's Shanties from the Seven Seas book, in light of the fact that it has been so influential on current performance yet it contains so many errors and lots of contrivances (mixed in, of course, with plenty of good work, too). Though you guys have enlightened me, I'm not yet in the position to really critique Hugill in this case, i.e. as to whether he was being disingenuous or failed in his critical duties. I am going to post the info from his remarks on Welsh chanties below, to see how people think it fits in to what is being discussed here.

The second reason I am intrigued by no/few Welsh chanties is that I have specific, well developed opinions about the origin and development of chanties – which I'll not try to impress upon people here, but I'll just summarize. That is, that what were initially called chanties were a style/phenomenon originating with African-American worksong practices. It spread from there, though minimally, in the earlier times, chanties were a distinctly English-language phenomenon. There were some shipboard work song traditions prior to and concurrent with "chanties" that were in other languages, but if one looks really closely, they can be distinguished from the phenomenon called chanties – at a point. In later years, the term "chanty" would be expanded to encompass most any work song, whether in non-English from earlier times (e.g. Norwegian songs at the capstan) or whether non-English songs adapted or created later to fill the function of a chanty. Most of the non-English chanties that truly resemble chanties, I maintain, are borrowings/translations of English-language chanties. Other non-English chanties are different in style, usually being heaving chanties which, as any chantyman can tell you, can be borrowed wholesale from a wide range of non-chanty material. On the other hand, hauling chanties, those which are most unique to the shipboard genre, do not really occur in non-English, except as translations of English hauling songs or in strange-ish/outlier forms that really do not resemble the form of English hauling chanties (and which therefore, according to my opinion, have merely come under the label of 'chanty' after the fact).

Perhaps that is somewhat confusing, or maybe too nerdy for anyone here to care! But anyway, it all goes to say that I would not be surprised to learn that there were no Welsh chanties, in that light, or that all were heaving (no hauling) chanties and most likely adaptations of previously existing folk/popular songs.

OK so here are Hugill's notes on the Welsh chanties. Along with them, I am putting renditions that I recently recorded. Please bear in mind that these are my first attempts to sing in Welsh. So why post it then, you ask, if I cannot do justice to the language? It is simply part of a much larger project, in which i am rendering all of the chanties in Hugill's book. The personal reason for that is to achieve a deeper engagement with the book, and the public reason is to provide stepping stones, however small, between the written page and future performances by people who can do more justice but who have difficulty converting texts into performance. So please accept my apologies for any "butchering" of the language.

I see now that Hugill's bibliography includes Davies' Cerddi Huw Puw [1923] and Cerddi Portinllaen, with the semantically odd note "Welsh versions of British shanties." The main text has three Welsh songs.

1. Mochyn Du

I now give one of the most popular capstan shanties ever sung aboard of ships with entire Welsh crews, ships hailing in the main from Liverpool. This is a folk song called Mochyn Du or The Black Pig. My informant declared that it was even more popular than another Welsh folk-song frequently heard at the capstan when the singers hailed from Cambria—Hob-y-derridando. I obtained the words of this version from H.B. Jones. There were many other versions but not all of them were used at sea. It was often raised when anchor-heaving aboard the Cambrian Queen (Captain Davies).

His main version follows, with two Welsh verses.

Mochyn Du

Then he offers what he says were "English words often sung to this tune" – one verse of the "Cosher Bailey" type, i.e. "Davy Davy comes from Nevin", and directs us to "Hob y Deri Dando" for the rest.

So are we to assume "H.B. Jones" gave the "folk song" version to Hugill, and Hugill felt the license to call it a chanty form? Or should we assume that Jones presented it, w/ Welsh words, as a chanty?


2. Hob-y-Derri(n)-Dando

A great favourite with Welsh seamen at the capstan was the Cambrian folk-song Hob-y-derri(n)-dando. It was often sung aboard Davis's ships of Liverpool, and Professor J. Glyn Davies told me that his brother related how the anchor was hove up in Bombay Harbour aboard the ship Dominion, when commanded by Captain Henry Thomas, to this rousing tune. The following version is one given me by Bill Morris, an old Aberdovey seaman of the days of sail who died a few years ago in his eighties.

The version has 3 Welsh verses, the 3rd being the one with the missing line discovered by sian. [Incidentally, the English translation of all 4 lines of verse is given, as follows:

There is in Nevin a light ale, boys,
This ale it is both food and drink,
When I filled me belly full,
Till I was turning like a cartwheel.]

The start of another Welsh verse is given, from "Bill Morris":
Ar y fford wrth fynd i Lundain,
Mi gwrddais a theiliwr llawen.

Hugill continues:
Sometimes 'Borth' was sung about instead of London, with 'torth' (loaf) as the rhyming word in the second line. Many of the verses Welsh sailors sang were bawdy. Verses with English words were often sung to this old song when heaving at the capstan. They were in the main the same as those sung to the other Welsh folk-song used at the capstan by Welsh seamen—Mochyn Du.

Here he gives 5 Cosher Bailey type verses, i.e. Davy Davy comes from Nevin, etc., but fits them to the Welsh chorus. Then he mentions an English chorus in one of RR Terry's books: "Jane, Jane, come to the glen/ To sing praise to Shanny Vach Voin!"

Hob-Y-Derri(n)-Dando

So again he seems to imply that a veteran seaman, "Bill Morris," presented a Welsh form as a chanty.

3. Rownd yr Horn

And now we present a Welsh shanty which, according to my informant, Mr. David Thomas of Bangor, is said to have been 'composed' by Captain Richard Pritchard of Amlwch. Captain Pritchard was known as 'Dic Comon Sens', i.e. 'Common-sense Dick'. Mr. Thomas took down the words and tune from the singing of an old retired sea captain. The old captain called it a "shanti' and it was probably sung at the capstan. Mr. Thomas said that there were many more verses in the complete shanty, but he did not know them. Mr. Gwion Davies of Llanfairfechan gave me a similar version often sung aborad a certain South Georgia whaler. He said that the second 'Rownd yr Horn!' would be yelled out in English—'Round the Horrrn!'

Then he gives the song, with 2 verses, only in Welsh.

Rownd Yr Horn

So it seems to be an 'authentic' sea version…unless these informants learned them sometime between Davies' publication and the 1950s (when Hugill was working in Aberdovey). Thoughts?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: sian, west wales
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 01:52 PM

Found the one with Sianti Gymraeg (Welsh Shanty) in it. It's the one that Dr Price and I (and any fans of early Plethyn albums - though with landlubber words) would know as "Happy now we are all, my boys". The notes in the book I have to hand (Canu'r Cymru II, 1987) say the tune was first noted down by Dr Meredydd Evans from the singing of his mother, Charlotte, who learned it from a farmworker in south Meirionyddshire at the end of the 1800s. He later came across a Welsh text entitled "Capstan shanty from Bangor to Boston slate ships" with the same metre and macaronic chorus in Univ. of Bangor library - and that seems to be the only written evidence of a Welsh language shanty. No tune. Later, he heard an old Welsh sailor singing a combination of some of those verses with Charlotte Evans' tune which he learned on the 'Blodwen' sailing from Porthmadog - used for 'pulling ropes'.

The tune has a six-note compass and is a variant, says Meredydd Evans, of the first half of a melody known, "throughout Europe and beyond. In France, it is called, ' Ah! vous dirai-je, maman' and in England 'Baa Baa black sheep'"

I hear the connection but the shanty tune is more fleshed out by a long shot.

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: sian, west wales
Date: 31 Jan 12 - 10:44 AM

OK. Found it. And this search shall now be filed under "Sod's Law".

I first looked through "Hen Benillion" (Old Verses) by T.H.Parry-Williams; more or less the standard source for these folk verses which are 'floaters' and very popular in traditional Welsh song. Hen Benillion has some 740+ of them and, although I couldn't find "Mae yn Nefyn gwrw llwyd" in the First Line Index I was pretty sure I'd seen verses with 'gwrw llwyd' before and it was quite common to change place names; so I went through ALL the first lines, and didn't find it.

I then remembered a rather newer book, "Ar Dafod Gwerin" by Tegwyn Jones but, as I've recently undertaken an overseas move, I had to find it first! Having found it, I then undertook the same process with its 1193 First Lines. Sod's Law: it was listing 1162 in the Index.

Yn Nhy^-Nant mae cwrw llwyd,
Mae yn ddiod, mae yn fwyd;
Mi a'i yfaf lond fy mol
Nes bydda i'n troi fel olwyn trol

In Ty^ Nant there is grey (pale) beer,
It is drink, it is food;
I go there to drink my belly full
Until I spin like a cart wheel.

(I place ^ AFTER letters over which it should appear.)

TJ notes that Ty^-Nant is (was?) a tavern between Cerrigydrudion and Corwen in North Wales; and in another version it's "Drws-y-Nant", so it's common to change the place name.

Dr Price, there is ONE Welsh shanty isn't there? I'll see if I can now find THAT book (J. Glyn) to verify. It's also worth noting that crews out of ports like Newport (Pembrokeshire), Aberaeron, etc in the 1800s sang hymns ... and crews were often from a single denomination (if not from a single family). I can't for the life of me remember where I picked that up.

Spiralling even farther from the original question, I was found myself on a 'fact-finding mission' in Ireland with a crew of people including a Mrs. Williams, minister's wife, from Fishguard. I mentioned that I was interested to see how many Welsh hymns there were involving storms at sea, tempests, crashing waves, etc. and thought it involved the maritime heritage. She said, 'no', it was because of the Welsh religious orientation towards the Old Testament, and the Jewish attitude (fear mostly) to the perils of the sea. Found out later that she was some truly major Celtic scholar but she certainly didn't flaunt it! I must try to remember her first name ...

By the way Dr Price, how are you doing today? Weren't you cremated on Jan 31st 1893? You must have spent all the money you made selling tickets to the event by now ...

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 05:13 PM

J.Glyn Davies in his introduction to Cerddi Huw Puw has a section titled Shanties And Sea Songs on Welsh Ships. There he says: "I have never heard a shanty with Welsh words; most of those I heard on Welsh ships appear, with varying degrees of differences, in Captain Whall's collection. I do not know of any Welsh sea songs of the type that bear that title in Captain Whall's book. There used to be plenty of ballads about shipwrecks round the Welsh coast...It was always the ballad singers wares...".

(If you'd like a copy of the intro - 4 pages - pm me an email address and I'll send you a scan of the full article).

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 04:48 PM

Thanks, DrPrice.

So the "Marco Polo" verse comes out of Davies' writing then, or what?

Although Hugill was in conversation with Davies, Hugill's tone does not suggest to me that he understood the Welsh lyrics to his three Welsh chanties (Mochyn Du, Hob d Deri, Rownd yr Horn) as composed by Davies.

What sources tell us that Welsh crews never sang Welsh-language chanties? And why would that be the case if they are using the language for normal things? Seems like it would be the opposite way.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Mick Tems
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 11:14 AM

"I sing the bass and you sing the solo
Hob y deri dando
All about the clipper ship, the Marco Polo..."

J. Glyn Davies, a Liverpool University professor in the Celtic Department who was a friend of Stan Hugill, worked for The Cambrian Line, which sailed out of Liverpool docks. In his copious notes, he says that, whereas Liverpool shanty crews were basically thrown together with little chance of singing practice, North Wales sailors had a sense of community spirit; they grew up together and sang in chapel choirs together. The Cambrian Line employed Welsh masters, and Welsh became the working language on the ships, "except for Orders and shanties." Sadly, there were no Welsh-language shanties on board ships (apart from sea songs sung by the five-man crews out of Porthmadog and other Welsh ports), which inspired Davies to write Yn Harbwr Corc, Fflat Huw Puw and other classic shanties which have passed into the Welsh tradition.

The Cambrian Line also brought elderly ships which were past their prime, including the Red Jacket and the famous clipper Marco Polo - hence the ship's mention in Hob Y Deri Dando. I think that Stan collected the shanty from an Aberdyfi sailor; the folksong was in the Welsh language, but the shanty (for reasons which have been documented here) was in the English language.

Incidentally, I've always supposed that "Blaina" was the coal community high up in the Gwent valleys. In Welsh, Blaenau were the steep ends to the valleys - it could also mean Blaenau Ffestiniog!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 03:07 AM

Thank you very much, Sian, for looking (and thanks Pip for suggestion).

It seems then that maybe these chanty verses turned up by Hugill were rather incidental or one of a kind. And I presume no one has worked up a chanty version using Hugill's collection.

A related question: Does someone know where the current chanty version's verse, "I'll sing bass/you sing solo", originates? What/who is the particular song collection or artist that introduced it?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: sian, west wales
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 08:34 PM

I've taken a quick look through a book of traditional verses of this sort and haven't found this particular one. I'll look a bit deeper and ask a few people. "Llwyd" can mean pallid, weak. It adds to the nonsense of these kind of verses; on one hand you're saying the beer is rubbish but on the other hand that it is meat and drink to people.

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 02:14 PM

Gibb - that seems to be a Welsh version of the verse about the beer in Nevin, although why the beer should be grey (llwyd) I'm not sure. Have you looked on the other thread? If there's nothing there you could PM the aptly-named Sian, who's a Welsh speaker and knows this stuff.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 11:55 AM

I have a book of Welsh songs published by the band Mabsant. Their version of Hob y Deri Dando is a song about being in love with a woman named Sian. That 'Johnny vac van' line is actually 'Siani fach fwyn.' I think it means 'small, fair Sian.'

(I'm pretty sure that Welsh f is pronounced like English v.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 05:11 AM

I'm looking for the (missing!) 4th line of the 3rd verse in the Welsh-language chanty version, as presented by Stan Hugill in _Shanties From the Seven Seas_. He seems to have accidently omitted it. Anybody got it?

What's there:
3. Mae yn Nefyn gwrw llwyd
(Hob...)
Mae yn ddiod ac yn fwyd
(Can y ...)
Mi yfais inau lond fy mol
(Sian...)
????

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Barbara
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 05:31 PM

I've been learning Hob Y Deri Dando to sing at the Portland Bridgetown Morris Men's informal sing after practice -- at whatever pub they haven't been kicked out of yet -- and I took the verse quoted above

Oh I've got a cousin Rupert,
He plays outside half for Newport
They think so much about him,
That they always play without him.

and turned it into

I've got a cousin name of Tom Brown
He dances in the Morris side with Bridgetown
And they think so much about him
That they always dance without him.

Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Dead Horse
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 06:01 AM

Forgot to add
Beddw being a Welsh place name.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Dead Horse
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 06:00 AM

That line "I wish I was in bed with the old mans daughter"
I try to sing it as "I wish I was in Beddw with the old mans daughter" so giving it a sort of single entendre.....:-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Barbara
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 03:49 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: SussexCarole
Date: 21 May 08 - 03:05 AM

From the Dictionary of Sussex Dialect... Hatch "In names of places probably means a gate".

It is usually found on the borders of forest

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Joe_F
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:13 PM

The OED has six distinct nouns "hatch", but none of them is any help. Sigh.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Snuffy
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:08 AM

I don't know what Hatch means in place names (Brands Hatch, Hatch End, etc), but I have always assumed it was some sort of woodland. These are often on top of hills, and highly combustible ...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Joe_F
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:41 PM

Thanks for the link, Snuffy. I suppose it must have been an obscure local reference that got frozen & perhaps distorted. None of the suggestions seems to take into account that B.H. has to be something you can be on the top of (a hill? a building?). "Sticks and matches", at any rate, are more plausible materials for setting up a small hell than "stakes and patches" as MacColl sings.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Snuffy
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:17 PM

Nobody is quite sure, but it has been discussed here on folkinfo.org

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Joe_F
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:20 PM

Where, pray, is Barford Hatches, and why would it be an appropriate place for someone to set up a private hell?

Subject: Lyr Add: HOB Y DERI DANDO
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 07:20 PM

I got a nice e-mail from diplocase. I think he meant to refer to a Website titled www.inharmonysway.COM - he was impressed by the following line:

"Take him 'round to Bailey's sister; she's so hot she'll raise a blister!"

If you look at the "In Harmony's Way" website, you will see the faces of several suspicious San Francisco characters (many of them Mudcatters) who might be responsible for a line like that. Here are the complete lyrics from the "In Harmony's Way" version:

Hob Y Deri Dando

I'll sing the bass if you sing the solo,
Hob Y deri dando.
All about the clipper ship the Marco Polo.
Can ye gan ye eto.
See her rolling through the water,
Jane, sweet Jane.
I wish I was in bed with the captain's daughter.

Jane, Jane, come to the glen,
To sing of praise to Johnny Fach Foyn.
Jane, Jane come to the glen,
To sing of praise to Johnny Fach Foyn.

Davy, Davy, comes from Nevin,
An' he's got a sweet little engine.
An' he thinks so much about it,
That he canot do without it.

Davy, Davy and sailor Evan,
They caught a shark on the reach of Nevin.
And all they asked for was a pie dish,
Thought they washed them bits of sharkfish.

Crusher Bailey had a sister,
Laughed like blazes when you kissed her.
Couldn't knit nor darn no stocking,
But what she could do was shocking.

Johnny Jones he wants a missus,
Someone to keep him warm with kisses.
Take him 'round to Bailey's sister,
She's so hot she'll raise a blister.

I'll sing the bass if you sing the solo,
All about he clipper ship the Marco polo.
See her roling through the water,
I wish I was in bed with the captain's daughter

Subject: RE: : Hob y Deri Dando
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 01:44 AM

Hi, diplocase - I moved your request here so we wouldn't split the discussion. Take a look above and at the crosslinked threads and lyrics, and see if what you seek has already been posted.
-Joe Offer (e-mail sent)-

Subject: Hob y Deri Dando - complete lyrics
From:
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 01:01 AM

Some shanty singers were looking for the lyrics to Hob y Deri Dando (Take him 'round to Bailey's sister...)

See inharmonysway.org for the lyrics. cac

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Compton
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 06:32 PM

The TV show "Hob y deri dando" went out nationally...in the days when Folk Song made the tele,.Can't help thinking a welsh comic/ poet (duo) Ryan and Ronny were involved. Another programme that was on about that time was "Poems and Pints"...when regional TV did go nationwide. Why can't it now!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 02:48 PM

The same book also quotes the North Wales version. Which, for the sake of completion...

UNWAITH ETO ("HOB Y DERI DAN-NO")
Traditional (Eng. words Walter Maynard)

Unwaith eto mi ddywedaf
"Hob y deri danno,"
Sian, fwyn, Sian?
Nid oes tês ar amser gauaf-
Dyna ganu eto,
Sian, fwyn, Sian.
Ond mae Sion yn wrth heneiddio-
Dal di sylw Sian.
Efo cariad yn gwefreiddio;
Sian fwyn tyrd i'r llwyn,
Seinaf enw Siani fwyn, Sian, fwyn Sian.

Llawer gauaf haf a gwanwyn
"Hob y deri danno,"
Sian, fwyn, Sian!
Wnaeth fi'n foel a thithau'n felyn:-
Dyna ganu eto,
Sian, fwyn, Sian.
Nid yw henaint o un d'ioni:-
Dal di sylw Sian.
I wneud cariad ieuanc ocri:
Sian fwyn tyrd i'r llwyn,
Seinaf enw Siani fwyn, Sian, fwyn Sian.


All the day I sigh and say, love
"Hob y deri danno," Jane, sweet Jane:
All the night I dream or pray, love,
"Hob y deri danno". Jane, sweet Jane.
Ah! since that first time we met,
I do naught but complain,
Tho' I fear thou dost forget,
I hope on still in vain.
All night and day,I sigh for thee, Jane sweet Jane.

And as oft I sigh and say, love
"Hob y deri danno," Jane, sweet Jane!
I ask why thou dost delay, love
"Hob y deri danno". Jane, sweet Jane.
Can it be thou heedest not if we ne'er meet again?
Am I then so soon forgot, and do I love in vain,
All night and day I sigh for thee, Jane, sweet Jane.


Source: "The Songs of Wales" Edited Brinley Richards; pub. Boosey & Co. (fourth edition 1879) P 66

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 02:17 PM

Somehow my name split the Welsh verse above, rather than coming at the end of the message!!!
Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 02:09 PM

Back to Abby's posting of 7 Aug '01, the 'Traditional' South Welsh version quoted from Brinley Richards "The Songs of Wales" goes on to a second verse which Abby hasn't posted. (Lucky me, I just picked up an 1879 re-print of the book for £3-99 at my local OXFAM shop. They had a second copy with the last dozen pages ripped out!)

Verse 2

Buom unwaith yn gariadon,
"Hob y deri dando,"
Ti a geisiaist dori'm calon,
Dyna ganu eto;
Am fynudyn pwy fu'n hidio?
Druan am dy dro,
Deri dando wyt ti'n gwrando?


Nigel
Hen gân co,
Canig hen y co,
Hob y deri dan y to.

Verse 2 (English words by Walter Maynard same source)
And as oft I sigh and say, love,
"Hob y deri dando,"
I ask why thou dost delay, love,
"Hob y deri dando,"
Can it be thou heedest not If we ne'er meet again?
Am I then so soon forgot?
Do I love in vain?
All night and day I sigh and pray for thee, sweet Jane.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Micca
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 12:26 PM

and ,of course, one of the verses I learned from Rugby players,
I had an uncle Mike
who used to ride a bike
but hes never been the same
since he caught it in the chain
did you ever see.. etc..

and just for fun

My fathers cousin Myron
Fit the engine with a siren
And he worked on her as fireman
From Crewe to Llanfair Caereinon

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 06:43 AM

Comparing all the versions, it is clear that the similarities far outweigh the differences, but the differences identify them. However, verses creep from one version to another, get changed, and creep back.
It is an oversimplification to state that the "Cosher Bailey" verses are historic, and usually in the past tense ("Cosher Bailey had a sister; Laughed...) while "Did You Ever See"(Was you ever saw/ Have you ever been to Wales) is present tense "I've got a cousin Daniel and he's got a cocker spaniel". But it is a simplification which generally works.
However, all the Cosher Bailey verses seem to deal with Cosher or his relatives, whilst the other versions allow people to add verses about their own (fictitious) relatives. Clearly, any verses can be slightly re-written and cross over to another version.
Much is gained and lost by the aural tradition. Verses heard once can easily change, as in " I know there was a verse about a rugby player, but I can't remember the name, only the punchline" (or remember the name but not the punch line). Hence:

Oh I've got a cousin Rupert, He plays outside half for Newport
They think so much about him, That they always play without him.
                and
Oh I've got a brother, Kelly, Who plays rugby for Kidwelly
In a game against Llanelli, Someone kicked him in the belly.

I've deliberately shown these as two double lines to show how easily the two halves of verses could be switched without affecting the song.

There is also a tendency for the words to be rendered in a 'Valleys English' style. This may be the original form, but it also seems to be done for effect. One of the main ways this is done is in the use of idiomatic verb formations, which, by their very use identify the version as being from S. Wales. e.g.
Oh, I've got a cousin Anna, And she's got a grand piana,
And she ram aram arama, Till the neighbors say "God Damn Her."
(or, She plays hammer, hammer, hammer, bloody hammer, hammer, hammer)
        can sometimes be heard as:
Oh I've got a cousin Anna, She do play the grand piana
She do also play the fiddle, Up the sides and down the middle.

The version from "Why was he born so beautiful...." clearly has been collated quickly. It has no starting verse as such, and the first verse quoted:
Oh, I got an Aunty Sissy, And she's only got one titty,
But it's very long and pointed And the nipple's double jointed.
          I have heard as Aunty Kitty, which provides the rhyme. However, Aunty Kitty is also seen elsewhere:
Oh I've got an Aunty Kitty, And she plays for Cardiff City (Association Football team)
But when it comes to rugger (Rugby football), She's a dirty little bugger/player.

This highlights another source of variations. I often heard this song sung on rugby trips, and on church outings. On church outings, and in the presence of young children, it became standard to 'fudge' the rhyming punchlines, hence "she's a dirty little player". But the revisions become standardised, giving us yet another set of verses.:
Oh I've got an uncle Russ, And he drives a motor bus.
And when you press the bell, OH the bus it goes like...lightning

Oh I've got a cousin Drake, and he thought he was a snake,
He was sliding through the grass, So I kicked him on the ..Elbow

I'm sure there's much more yet to be said on this subject, but for now this is my two penn'orth

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 04:15 AM

Apart from the versions listed by Abby, this one is also heard, with a distinct first verse, before other singers 'volunteer' verses.
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO WALES
(Traditional)

Have you ever been to Wales,
Where they brew the finest ales,
If you want to drink on Sunday,
You have got to wait 'till Monday.

Did you ever see, did you ever see, did you ever see such a funny thing before?

Crawshay Bailey's brother Norwich,
He was fond of oatmeal porrige,
But was sent to Cardiff College,
For to get a bit of knowledge.
(Found at This message
The first verse relates to the long-standing effect of the "Lord's Day Observance Society" and the banning of pubs opening on Sundays. This law was rescinded on a piecemeal basis, with each county voting, every 10 years or so, whether to repeal the law by local referendum . For a long time it was possible to find examples of border towns (County borders) where crossing a bridge was enough to put you in a different county with different licensing laws.
The law did not, however, affect private members clubs. This accounts for the proliferation of social, political, and 'working mens' clubs in the S.Wales valleys.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: sian, west wales
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 02:56 PM

BanjoRay, I'm impressed! I'll be seeing Mered (Meredydd) this weekend - I'm going to ask him if he remembers!

Back to Cosher Bailey, I've had a quick re-read of the above ... and I don't see that we ever actually named the tune to Cosher Baily/ Mochyn Du: "Lili Lon".

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: BanjoRay
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:15 PM

Looking back in this thread I see Roger the Skiffler wanted to know if Hob Y Deri Dando was a Welsh TV program in the early sixties - the answer is yes, I know 'cos I was in it - it's my claim to fame. Five of us in Aberystwyth University (Paul Darby, Barry Keywood, Brian Moss, Ray Banks and Eiri Jones) called ourselves the Virginia Bootleggers, and we went up to the BBC Studios in Bangor to record it. It was run by Meredith Evans (I think), and took place in a studio made to look like a barn, with bales of straw to sit on. We sang two Carter family songs in Welsh Virginia accents, while the rest of the show was in the Welsh language. Recording techniques being what they were, the whole half hour had to be done in one go, and we had to do the whole program three or four times before Mered declared it OK to record it, thus somewhat losing the spontaneity of this "informal" folk show. None of us had access to a TV, so we never saw saw it, but I heard reports that the folk world didn't think too much of the series.

Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Abby Sale
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 06:55 PM

Dead Horse: Ta. An interesting item to me -- I first got interested in the song hearing it at Mystic Fest in 1998. The refrain was sung slowly & deliberately. This year at Mystic the song was sung more often but the refrain was rapid and tossed off. Then I learned that the Baggyrinkles were there and seemed to think they had more knowledge of the song than Americans. Can't imagine why. But everyone else there instantly sang it the Baggyrinkle way. Interesting.

Good group. Hi, Cap'n Jack, if'n yer out there.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Dead Horse
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:14 PM

Fantastic! Great stuff, Abby.
I've just learned the Welsh chorus from the singing of Baggyrinkle Shantymen from Swansea, after having only just learned the Anglicised version. Can't say as I care much for the intrusion of verses from Sally Brown, when there is so much else available that has a Welsh flavour. From now on I shall only sing the Sally Brown verses when doing that shanty, and Bully In The Alley.
Thanks Abby, and thanks again to Baggyrinkle.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Nerd
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 03:58 PM

I heard it with the last line:

to sing praise to the shelly-back boy,

which refers to shellbacks, or sailors. I can't for the life of me remember where I heard it, though, 'cause I've known it for years! This is all great stuff; I love the 18th and 19th Century druidical interpretations--so farfetched, yet so interesting nonetheless in the mere glimmer of possibility!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:03 PM

Wonderful sets of lyrics for Hob-i-derry... and Cosher Bailey, posted by Abby Sale! Hadn't seen this thread before.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: MMario
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 08:54 AM

wow!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: sian, west wales
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 04:37 AM

Bloody 'ell, Ab! Well found! I'd forgotten most of that stuff! This time I'll copy and save somewhere safe!

One reflection: if people are going to keep the 'Siani fach fain/fwyn' words, I don't understand why they use 'Jane' in the rest of the song?

Small point - that URL given in connection with 'moi' is obsolete.

sian

Subject: OK, we'll try, Page 2
From: Abby Sale
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 08:11 PM

---

 
 

Crusher Bailey           From Oscar Brand: Crusher Bailey went to college     Hob y deri dando For to get a little knowledge     Let us sing again boys. When the proctor seen him coming,     Jane, sweet Jane, He went right home to hide his woman     Jane, Jane, come to the glen,     To sing praise of Sean Fach Fwyn Crusher Bailey had a sister Laughed like blazes when you kissed her Couldn't knit or darn a stocking What she could do sure was shocking. Listen, I will sing a solo 'Bout his ship, the "Marco Polo" See her puffing through the water Wish I was abed with the captain's daughter Crusher Bailey had a stoker He thought himself a bloody joker Just to watch the steam go higher He'd make water on the boiler. From Oscar Brand's book (Bawdy Songs and Backroom Ballads;  Dorchester Press, 1960; LOC#M60-1010):  --  * liner notes translate as "Sean Fach Fwyn" as "sweet little Jane." [From: Eric Berge] From Susie Cool Foster of the Spiral Circle Crusher Bailey's Auntie Maude Said that children came from God But it wasn't the Almighty That lifted up her nightie.

Did You Ever See From: Why Was He Born So Beautiful           and other rugby songs 1. Oh, I got an Aunty Sissy,  And she's only got one titty,  But it's very long and pointed  And the nipple's double jointed.  Cho: Did you ever see          Did you ever see,          Did you ever see,          Such a funny thing before. 2. I've got a cousin Daniel,  And he's got a cocker spaniel,  If you tickled 'im in the middle  He would lift his leg and piddle. 3. Oh, I've got a cousin Rupert,  He plays outside half for Newport.  They think so much about him  That they always play without him. 4. Oh, I've got a cousin Anna,  And she's got a grand piana,  And she ram aram arama,  Till the neighbors say "God Damn Her." From: John (Yogi) Allen, (Hasher & Rugby enthusiast): Cosher has an Auntie Julia, She was taken most peculiar, Something 'appened to 'er liver, And she overflowed the river. Cosher's little cousin Lily, She played socker for Caerphilly, Ah, but when she took up rugger, Well she was a silly billy, Oh the choir on Sunday night, Sing much better when they're tight, And their version of Cwm Rhondda,         [ie, "Guide me, O Thou Thou great Jehovah"] Makes the angels blush up yonder.  You should see the bees at Gower, As they flit from flower to flower. You should see them at Llangollen, As they gather in their pollen. Cosher Bailey he did die, In a coffin he did lie, But alas they heard some knockin... Cosher Bailey? - Only joking...

 

---

 
 

Hob Y Derri Dando
(Traditional)

The Welsh: Ni bu ferch erioed gan laned Hob y deri dando Ni bu ferch erioed gan wyned, Dyna ganu eto Ni bu neb o ferched dynion Siân fwyn, Siân Nes na hon i dorri 'nghalon         Siân fwyn, tyrd i'r llwyn         Seiniwn glod i Siani fach fwyn:         Siân fwyn, tyrd i'r llwyn         Seiniwn glod i Siani fach fwyn. And the English: Never was there maiden sweeter Hob y deri dando More alluring, livelier, neater Hob y deri dando Nor one to my fancy nearer Jane, sweet Jane There is no one I love dearer,         Jane, run down the lane         There in the grove we'll kiss again         Jane, run down the lane         There in the grove we'll kiss again. The Welsh uses old traditional verses / rhymes.  There are another two verses in English and Welsh in this particular book ... Caneuon Cenedlaethol Cymru - The National Songs of Wales, Boosey & Hawkes, which may still be available. From Siân Thomas.

The Welsh: Wyt ti'n hoffi dyri', Derwydd? "Hob y deri dando," Unwaith oerais i o'th herwydd -- Dyna ganu eto: Ym mhob ardal y mae byrdon, Canig hen y co'; Pwy na allant ddweud penillion, Hen gan co Canig hen y co, Hob y deri dan y to. And the English: All the day I sigh and say, love "Hob y deri dando". All the night I dream or pray, love, "Hob y deri dando". Ah, since that first time we met, I do naught but complain, Tho' I fear thou dost forget, I hope on in vain. All night and day, I say and pray for thee, dear Jane.   Also From Siân Thomas,  Published  by Brinley Richards in The Songs of Wales (1873).  These two are the S.Wales ones, In the above version, the English is not a translation of the Welsh.

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Miscellaneous Verses

Sent by Dick Greenhaus: "Cosher Bailey's Engine". Just to make the smoke rise higher,    Jane Sweet Jane, He'd make water on the fire    Jane, Jane, come to the glen etc.     Sent by Kevin Sheils 5. Cosher Bailey's brother Rupert     He played stand-off-half for Newport,     In the game against Llandaff     He got kicked in the elbow.        Did you ever saw, did you ever saw        Did you ever saw, such a funny thing before.   Which may sound grammatically clumsy to the English ear but at least it rhymes :-)

Sent by Joe Fineman Cosher Bailey had a grandma Who could play the grand pianna, And she also played the fiddle, Down the sides and up the middle. Cosher had a brother Matthew Who was always making statues, But one day, while doing Venus, He fell down and broke his elbow. Learned at a rockclimbers' party in Kingston, NY, ca. 1969. Also, there is a stanza is quoted in Goodbye to All That by Robert Graves, one of the student ones.     Sent by Joy Hilbert (of bawdy-l) Cosha Bailey's sister Ella Had a beautiful umbrella And she thought so much about it She would never be without it One day Ella had a date With her best friend's brother's mate 'Twould have been a tale of folly If she hadn't had her brolly   According to Joy Hilbert,  "Folly" was a coded word at the time implying rape.  That is, she went out with someone she didn't know well enough, and he would have raped her if she hadn't hit him with her brolly.  Since brollies are not that vicious as weapons, she probably hit him in the groin.

 

General notes: Thank you for all the help - Anni Fentiman, Ruth Meakin, Andy Alexis, Paul Schoenwetter, Eric Berge, Joe Fineman, Gerry Milne, Kevin Sheils, Steve Ashton - and especially to Sian (Siân) Thomas for all the Welsh material & who did a lot of work, indeed.  The primary versions & details of this fine chantey/love song/political satire are shown.  Any misunderstandings or inaccuracies are certainly my own. Siân (Sian) Thomas http://www.telecottages.org/iws: says Siani Fach fain (pronounced SHAN-ee Vach Vine, using the gutteral "ch" as in German) and it means Slender Little Siani/Janey.  She continues: Two versions: one North, one South Wales.  More or less the same words, but different(-ish) tunes.  The South Wales tune is probably the best known and most used currently, but "usually" with words written this century by a famous Welsh poet, Crwys, about Uncle Dafydd and his suit of homespun cloth courting Siân Fwyn (Gentle).  The Pint & Dale words Crawshay/Cosher Baily words (often sung to quite a different tune here in South Wales) and very popular in the 70s with the rugby fraternity. It is an extension of the very old Welsh tradition of "canu penillion" - singing verses.  You use a popular tune, usually with a nonsense alternative lines, and sing a hotchpotch of verses to them as the mood moves the singer.  Or in groups it becomes "ymryson canu" - contest singing (but more like "bandying" verses).  So, one singer sings his/her verse then someone else has to take it up with something else that fits (either traditional or improvised). Hob y Deri Dando was probably collected first by a man named William Jones around the end of the 18th C. He says that it was noted down from a very old man in the Llangadfan area who, "used to sing with stops and trips".  I don't know what tune the Mystic Chantey-men used, but the meter sounds to me like the North Wales one.  "Stops and trips" refer to the harp accompaniment which would have stood instead of the Hob y Deri Dando line.  When we sing it, we tend to (??) draw out the "dando" to another full bar, and straight into the next line, but the harpers would, apparently rap three times. ("hob y der-i dan-do "tap" "tap" "tap")  Those are the stops.  The Words could be much older than 18th century and connected with an ancient meter of poetry. The "singing with stops and trips" might refer to ... the dancers bow/curtsey to the harp/musicians before the dance begins. "Can-y-gan-y-eto" which is a garbled version of the 3rd line of one Welsh version:  Dyma ganu eto.  (Duh-mah GAN-ee e-to) or (lit.) Here's the singing of it again.  It's  basically the sea-shanty words, as it was never thus connected here in Wales. The Edward Jones (1794) publication and subsequent Brinley Richards one will tell you ..."Hai down i'r deri danno," - (come let us hasten to the oaken grove) is the burden of an old song of the Druids.  The old English song, "Hie down down derry down" &c.," is probably borrowed from the Druidical song."  But "Hob y deri danno" literally means, "The swine (or pig) under the oaks."  It's basically a nonsense phrase these days, but was once a come-on ..."Meet me under the oak, honey!"  The town oak was the meeting-place in general - much like a village square where the youngsters hang out. The old story that the song is an ancient call to worship by the Druid's was set rolling by the original publisher (Edward Jones) in 1794  when London was a-wash with (re-)creating a romanticized Druidic movement.  EJ took it from Wm. Jones' report that Hob y deri dando referred to the Oak grove.  Yes, Oaks = druids ... but it was also a choice spot for young lovers, which brings us tidily back to Jane, Jane, come to the Glen which was, in Welsh, Siân, Siân, come into the bushes (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) -- Gerry Milne noted:  Stan Hugill gave both Welsh and English versions in Shanties from the Seven Seas, where he says it was one of the two popular capstan shanties sung by Welsh crews, the other being "Mochyn Du", or "The Black Pig".   The tune to "Mochyn Du" is the same as "Cosher Bailey" as sung by rugby fans and the folk world. The shanty that Abby heard at Mystic  goes to a totally different tune:- -- Kevin Sheils: As to meaning of 'bliner' -- 'bliner' could be the Bleanau Ffestiniog railway in the Snowdonia region (spelling may be iffy here).  Or possibly it's a corruption of Baleana (sp?) the ship in other nautical songs. -- Siân Thomas: Given the reference to Nefyn, it could well be Blaenau  (pron. Bline-eye), which was and is a huge slate quarrying town in Snowdonia.  It would have shipped it's slate around the world, and freighted it out from Blaenau by train to Porth Madog. -- The "happy?" file gives us: "As a result of the Grouping (ie, of 123 separate railway companies into just four) the Taff Vale Railway ended as an entity on 1 Jan 1922.  The original 1836 line ran 32 miles, including some short branches, from Merthyr Tydfil to Cardiff Docks.  Its coal traffic became enormous, as shown by its having 271 locomotives working over just 124 miles. The line was built by the ironmaster, Cosher Bailey.  Personally driving the engine on its first trip, he got stuck in a tunnel." -- There cannot, of course, be any factual connection between any Bailey and a steam engine and the famous sailing ship, Marco Polo "puffing through the water." -- Some of the extreme glee with which Bailey's difficulties are treated - as well as the enthusiam of the bawdy verses - may be set against the historical man.  According to A Brief History of Wales  (http://www.britannia.com/wales/whist14.html)  for the year 1839:  "In May, The Cambrian reported on an anti-Chartist meeting held the previous month, chaired by Crawshay Bailey, (the iron master of Dowlais, in the Merthyr District, who had fortified his mansion against possible assaults from his own workers). It seemed that many of the iron masters were terrified of the new radical movements that were spreading throughout the valleys. Bailey spoke, he said, to 'counteract the baneful effects of the principles of the Chartists and to show the inhabitants of this place who are their real friends.' He had known some of the protesting workers for 20 years or more, he said, and they should be grateful for his favours, as none of the Chartists will give them employment as he had done. Reminding his listeners of all the work he had brought to the valley 'from Brynmawr to Aberbeeg,' increasing its population from 200 to more than l0,000, he would as rather sacrifice his life, he went on, than lose any of his property."

(Seems there's a page size limit here)

Subject: OK, we'll try, Page 1
From: Abby Sale
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 08:08 PM

I think the point of all this is that looking at a single version just doesn't afford the wonderful transitions of the song from Love to satire to chanty to bawdy to sing-along.  Nor the casual ironies of the engine-driven sailing ship, etc., etc.

Hob Y Derri Dando                      (As I sing it) I'll sing the bass and you sing the solo      Hob-y-derri-dando  All about the clipper ship, the Marco Polo      Can-y-gan-y-eto  See her rolling through the water      Jane, sweet Jane I wish I was in bed with the old man's daughter      Jane, Jane, come to the glen,         }     To sing praise to Siani Fach Fwyn.  } x2 Davy, Davy comes from Nevin  And he's got a sweet little engine  And he thinks so much about it  Oh, that he cannot do without it  Davy, Davy's sister, Dinah  Was a-working on the bliner But the manager did sack her All because she chewed his best tobacca Davy, Davy in sailor heaven They caught a shark in the reach of Nevin All he asked for was a pie-dish All for to cook them bits of shark-fish You sing the bass and I'll sing the solo  All about the clipper ship the Marco Polo  See her rolling through the water  Oh, I wish I was in bed with the old man's daughter

Cosher Bailey                  (As I sing it) Cosher Bailey had a sister  Laughed like blazes when you kissed her  Couldn't knit nor darn no stocking  What she could do sure was shocking  Johnny Jones, he wants a missus  Someone to keep him warm with kisses  Take him round to Bailey's sister  She's so hot she'll raise a blister. Cosher Bailey had an engine It was always wanting mending, And according to the power, She could do four miles an hour Oh the sight it was heart-rending Cosher drove his little engine And he got stuck in the tunnel And went up the bloomin' funnel. Cosher Bailey's brother Matthew Had a job at cleaning statues But when he was cleaning Venus He slipped and broke his elbow. Crusher Bailey had a stoker He thought himself a bloody joker Just to watch the steam go higher He'd make water on the boiler. Oh, I got an Aunty Sissy, And she's only got one titty, But it's very long and pointed And the nipple's double jointed. I've got a cousin Daniel, And he's got a cocker spaniel, If you tickled 'im in the middle He would lift his leg and piddle. Oh, I've got a cousin Anna, And she's got a grand piana, And she ram aram arama, Till the neighbors say "God Damn Her." Cosher has an Auntie Julia, She was taken most peculiar, Something 'appened to 'er liver, And she overflowed the river. Crusher Bailey's auntie Maude Said that children came from God But it wasn't the Almighty That lifted up her nightie.

(I sent these up to DT 7/16/98)

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Hob Y Derri Dando
(Traditional)

The Mystic Seaport Chanteymen sing: I'll sing the bass and you sing the solo   Hob-y-derri-dando  All about the clipper ship, the Marco Polo   Can-y-gan-y-eto  See her rolling through the water   Jane, sweet Jane I wish I was in bed with the old man's daughter   Jane, Jane, come to the glen,        }  To sing praise to Siani Fach fain    } x2 Davy, Davy comes from Nevin  And he's got a sweet little engine  And he thinks so much about it  Oh, that he cannot do without it  Davy, Davy's sister, Dinah  Was a-working on the bliner But the manager did sack her All because she chewed his best tobacca Davy, Davy in sailor heaven They caught a shark in the reach of Nevin All he asked for was a pie-dish All for to cook them bits of shark-fish You sing the bass and I'll sing the solo  All about the clipper ship the Marco Polo  See her rolling through the water  Oh, I wish I was in bed with the old man's daughter   Jane, Jane, come to the glen,      }  To sing praise to Siani Fach fain  } x 5

William Pint and Felicia Dale sing: I'll sing the bass and you sing the solo   Hob-y-derri-dando  All about the clipper ship the Marco Polo   Can-y-gan-y-eto  See her rolling through the water   Jane sweet Jane  Wish I was in bed with the old man's daughter   Jane, Jane, come to the glen         }  To sing praise to Sean Foch Foyn  } x2 Davy, Davy comes from Nevin  An' he's got a sweet little engine  An he thinks so much about it  That he cannot do without it  Crusher Bailey had a sister  Laughed like blazes when you kissed her  Couldn't knit nor darn no stocking  But what she could do was shocking  Johnny Jones, he wants a missus  Someone to keep him warm with kisses  Take him round to Bailey's sister  She's so hot she'll raise a blister.     From the CD, Hearts of Gold: "...is one of the few shanties that we've run across of Welsh origin. The chorus has been partly Anglicized. In true folk tradition, we've added a verse of our own invention."  From Pint & Dale's web site at: http://members.aol.com/Pintndale/ [thanx Andy Alexis, Sacramento, CA.]

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Cosher Bailey's Engine

1. Cosher Bailey had an engine  It was always wanting mending,  And according to the power,  She could do four miles an hour Cho: Did you ever see, did you ever see   Did you ever see such a funny sight before?  2. On the night run up from Gower  She did twenty mile an hour  As she whistled through the station  Man, she frightened half the nation.  3. Cosher bought her second-hand  And he painted her so grand  When the driver went to oil her  Man, she nearly burst her boiler.  4. Cosher Bailey's sister Lena  She was living up in Blaina  She could knit and darn our stockings  But her cooking it was shocking.  5. Cosher Bailey's brother Rupert  He played stand-off-half for Newport,  When they played against Llanelly  Someone kicked him in the belly.  6. Cosher Bailey had a daughter  Who did things she didn't oughter  She was quite beyond the pale  But over that we'll draw a veil.  7. Cosher Bailey went to Exford*  For to pass matriculation  But he saw a pretty barmaid  And he never left the station.  8. Oh the sight it was heart-rending  Cosher drove his little engine  And he got stuck in the tunnel  And went up the bloomin' funnel.

9. Cosher Bailey's little engine  Couldn't even sound its hooter  Just to make the steam go higher  He made water on the fire. 10. Yes, Cosher Bailey he did die  And they put him in a coffin  But, alas, they heard a knocking  Cosher Bailey, only joking. 11. Well, the Devil wouldn't have him  But he gave him sticks and matches  For to set up on his own  On the top of Barford Hatches. 12. Cosher Bailey's brother Matthew  Had a job at cleaning statues  But when he was cleaning Venus  He slipped and broke his elbow. 13. Cosher Bailey's Uncle Reg  He did go behind an 'edge,  Uncle Reg is feeling better  But the 'edge is somewhat wetter. 14. Yes, I knew his brother Rupert  When he played scrum-half for Newport  Ah, but when he took up rugger  He looked such a silly billy. 15. Cosher Bailey's sister Hanna  Well, she played the grand pianna  She went hammer, hammer, hammer,  Till the neighbours said, "Goddamn her!" 16. In the choir on Sunday night  We sing better when we're tight  And our version of 'Cym Rhondda'  Makes the angels jive up yonder!

*Exford = Oxford (imitation of Oxford accent) JB; 'Cym Rhondda' = "Kum ronda"
Verse 4 shows a connection to the chantey - "working on the bliner."  Verse 5 shows the rugby connection.

From Digital Tradition, Recorded by MacColl  (Four Pence a Day)

On British Industrial Ballads, Ewan MacColl  sings verses 1,2,3,4,7,8,10,11.
In Irwin Silber's Folksinger's Wordbook, one finds verses 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10,11.

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