Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando

Subject: Lyr Add: HOB-I-DERRY-DANDO
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 07:35 AM

Collected from an Elliot Family album and I could not find it in the digitrad, so here it is
If anyone has any idea what it means - do post!

ALso if anyone can produce a better word for "vac-van" please do so.

HOB-I-DERRY-DANDO

I'll sing bass and you sing solo
Hob-I-derry-dando
It's all about the Marco Polo
Let us sing again and boys
See her rolling through the water
Jane, sweet Jane
I wish I was in bed with the captain's daughter
Jane, Jane, come to the glen
To sing a praise to Johnny-vac-van.

CH: Jane, Jane, come to the glen
To sing a praise to Johnny-vac-van

Sally Brown she's a bright mulatto
Hob-I-derry-dando
She drinks rum and she chews tobacco
Let us sing again and boys
Sally Brown what is the matter?
Jane, sweet Jane
She's a lovely girl but I can't get at her
Jane, Jane, come to the glen
To sing a praise to Johnny-vac-van

CH

You Jack Hughes and the miller gripping
Hob-I-derry-dando
Caught a shark in the reach of Nevin
Let us sing again and boys
All thye wanted was a pie-dish
Jane, sweet Jane
For to wash their bit of sharkfish
Jane, Jane, come to the glen
To sing a praise to Johnny-vac-van

CH

They brew good brown beer in Nevin
Hob-I-derry-dando
It's both food and drink in Nevin
Let us sing again and boys
When I quench my thirsty yearning
Jane, sweet Jane
Like a card we'll all keep turning
Jane, Jane, come to the glen
To sing a praise to Johnny-vac-van

CH

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Also see: Hob y Deri Dando

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Stewie
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 10:37 AM

Years ago, I used the Elliotts' version in a workshop. I got the chorus part from Hugill who quotes it from 'Saltwater Ballads' as:

Jane, Jane come to the glen
To sing the praise to Shanny Vach Voin

For the first line of the third stanza, we had: 'You, Jack Hughes, and the miller Griffin'.

For the fourth line of the fourth stanza, we had: 'Like a cart wheel I'll keep turning'.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 11:46 AM

All those sound right.

Now what's "Shanny Vach Voin"?

It sounds as if it might be a translitteration of something from one of the Gaelic languages. Sort of like "Shanachie".

And what is the perishing thing about?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Stewie
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 12:02 PM

It's a Welsh capstan shanty and, like many shanties, probably does have to mean much at all. Hugill gives a Welsh version, a translation and verses with English words. He gives no explanation for 'Shanny Vach Voin', but it could well be, as you suggest, an English attempt at Welsh. I am sure someone will be along who knows.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 12:08 PM

"Shanny Vach Voin" -looks like a free rendition of the phrase Shan Van Vocht from the Irish séan bhean bhocht(?), meaning "the old woman".

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 12:22 PM

I'd guess Shanny Vach is Sioni fach (little Johnny), but I don't know about the van/voin bit.

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 12:44 PM

There is a set at Lesley Nelson's site: Joy Upon Thy Bright Cheek Dances (Hob Y Deri Dando)  Text and tune from William Cole's 1961 anthology; he points out that Hob Y Deri Dando means the pig under the oaks in Welsh.  He also states that the tune is related to Hai Down ir Deri Dando, and unfortunately adds, "which is an old song of the Druids"(!).  There is also a link to a set in Welsh (in Barry Taylor's Tunebook), with another English text which is not a translation of it.  There are quite a few websites which carry the two last texts, and midi; they appear all to have been lifted from Barry's site, mostly without acknowledgment.

A tune appeared in Davidson's Musical Miracles: Two Hundred Welsh Airs for a Shilling (1859, reprinted Llanerch, 1990s) as Hob Y Deri Dando: Away My Herd.  I recall singing a version (in English, of course) at school in the early 1960s; it would have been from a "Singing Together" pamphlet.  Unfortunately, it's not in any of those that I still have, and I don't now recall whether it was a form of the shanty or of one of the more genteel sets on which I presume the shanty was loosely based.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 01:42 PM

This is very interesting. Thanks all. I wonder if I should do this for every song I sing that is not some obvious contemporary thing.

One of the things I miss about folk clubs is that people used to explain the songs. Now they just sing them, usually confusing the author and the best known performer of the song, and if giving information getting it wrong (as usually happens with "Athenrae").

Mind you my trouble and strife (significant other for those who don't speak rhymer) says Lloyd didn't know half of what he let on, so perhaps it's just the rose tinted specs of time!

I have had a quick serach, and can't find "Nevin" either. Ideas on that?? Is it some really obvious place I ought to be able to find in 10 minutes?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 01:50 PM

"Nevin" - probably = Nefyn, on the Lleyn peninsula in North Wales.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 01:54 PM

Thanks

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: sian, west wales
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 03:13 PM

There are actually two Hob y Deri Dando-s , a North Wales and a South Wales one. I provided a lot of info to one of the Usenet groups some years ago, which I think Abby Sale copied to Mudcat (I wasn't a member at the time).

The phrase that's boggling you is Siani Fach Fwyn. (Shannee Vach Vooeen - with the ch as in the German, ie. Bach) and means Gentle Little Sian (note: female), Sian being Jane in Welsh.

Maybe someone can dredge up the old thread ... ? The Druid thing (ie. *real* druids is, umm, tenuous) But the druids did worship the Oak. Pigs used to be grazed in oak groves to feed on the acorns.

Sian not under the oaks ...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 03:30 PM

Re: Hob Y Derri Dando.

The Welsh sailors mainly from the North of Wales sang this shanty. You are right in that Nefyn is on the North side of the Llyn Peninsular. The Welsh version also mentions Pwllheli. Prof J.Glynne Davies says that there also was a South Wales version? Baggyrinkle (Swansea Shantymen) sing the English translation of Welsh verses featured in another Welsh capstan shanty, "Mochyn Du",which in translation means "Black Pig". They sing the Welsh language chorus from a version that Stan Hugill collected from an old Aberdovey seaman and which is included in his book "Shanties Of The Seven Seas". The folk process naturally like most folk songs, brings in many versions as we can see in this thread.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 04:11 AM

I've often wondered where the common "Down a down, hey down a down", and "Derry down" choruses came from. But why did a Welsh chorus get attached to English songs? And are there any other nonsense choruses that can be explained in this way? (Too ray aah, fol the diddle daa etc.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Abby Sale
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 08:26 PM

Hi, sian,

Yes, we did a full treatice on it then. We developed the song as a chantey, a north and a south Wales love song, through to the ironic Cosher Bailey and through to the rugby/hasher bawdy verses. Good fun. I do still have the full file with 8 or so versions and extra verses. I think I reposted it here.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 04:38 AM

Hi, Abby. Nice to hear from you. I looked through my various computer files, but I've changed machines since then and looks like the info has gone walk-about. Or I need more time to sift!

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 05:24 AM

Thread creep warning: wasn't Hob-i-derry-dando also the name of a Welsh radio or tv programme in the early '60s? I was in Cardiff 1963-1966 and it seems to ring a bell.
RtS (damn CRS)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 06:51 AM

yep. Before my time (in Wales, anyway) but it was a variety show. Not sure if Sian Phillips didn't do some of her earliest professional work on it (or something similar).

Sian

Subject: Lyr Add: HOB-I-DERRY-DANDO
From: Abby Sale
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 02:55 PM

Richard: A more typical rendering of the chantey style would be:

I'll sing the bass and you sing the solo
Hob-y-derri-dando
All about the clipper ship, the Marco Polo
Can-y-gan-y-eto
See her rolling through the water
Jane, sweet Jane
I wish I was in bed with the old man's daughter

Jane, Jane, come to the glen,
To sing praise to Siani Fach Fwyn


that "Can-y-gan-y-eto" line, per sian, is a garbled version of the 3rd line of one Welsh version: Dyma ganu eto. (Duh-mah GAN-ee e-to) or (lit.) 'Here's the singing of it again.' - [Similar to the English line you give.]

The Edward Jones (1794) publication and subsequent Brinley Richards one will tell you ..."Hai down i'r deri danno," - (come let us hasten to the oaken grove) is the burden of an old song of the Druids. The old English song, "Hie down down derry down" &c.," is probably borrowed from the Druidical song." But "Hob y deri danno" literally means, "The swine (or pig) under the oaks." It's basically a nonsense phrase these days, but was once a come-on ..."Meet me under the oak, honey!" The town oak was the meeting-place in general - much like a village square where the youngsters hang out.

Does anyone want me to post the full 8-page file, bawdy verses & all? Actually, quite a few people worked on it and contributed verses and versions and explanations.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: MMario
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 03:06 PM

yes! Please!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: radriano
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 03:52 PM

Abby, this is your conscience speaking. You must post, you must post, you must post....

Subject: OK, we'll try, Page 1
From: Abby Sale
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 08:08 PM

I think the point of all this is that looking at a single version just doesn't afford the wonderful transitions of the song from Love to satire to chanty to bawdy to sing-along.  Nor the casual ironies of the engine-driven sailing ship, etc., etc.

Hob Y Derri Dando                      (As I sing it) I'll sing the bass and you sing the solo      Hob-y-derri-dando  All about the clipper ship, the Marco Polo      Can-y-gan-y-eto  See her rolling through the water      Jane, sweet Jane I wish I was in bed with the old man's daughter      Jane, Jane, come to the glen,         }     To sing praise to Siani Fach Fwyn.  } x2 Davy, Davy comes from Nevin  And he's got a sweet little engine  And he thinks so much about it  Oh, that he cannot do without it  Davy, Davy's sister, Dinah  Was a-working on the bliner But the manager did sack her All because she chewed his best tobacca Davy, Davy in sailor heaven They caught a shark in the reach of Nevin All he asked for was a pie-dish All for to cook them bits of shark-fish You sing the bass and I'll sing the solo  All about the clipper ship the Marco Polo  See her rolling through the water  Oh, I wish I was in bed with the old man's daughter

Cosher Bailey                  (As I sing it) Cosher Bailey had a sister  Laughed like blazes when you kissed her  Couldn't knit nor darn no stocking  What she could do sure was shocking  Johnny Jones, he wants a missus  Someone to keep him warm with kisses  Take him round to Bailey's sister  She's so hot she'll raise a blister. Cosher Bailey had an engine It was always wanting mending, And according to the power, She could do four miles an hour Oh the sight it was heart-rending Cosher drove his little engine And he got stuck in the tunnel And went up the bloomin' funnel. Cosher Bailey's brother Matthew Had a job at cleaning statues But when he was cleaning Venus He slipped and broke his elbow. Crusher Bailey had a stoker He thought himself a bloody joker Just to watch the steam go higher He'd make water on the boiler. Oh, I got an Aunty Sissy, And she's only got one titty, But it's very long and pointed And the nipple's double jointed. I've got a cousin Daniel, And he's got a cocker spaniel, If you tickled 'im in the middle He would lift his leg and piddle. Oh, I've got a cousin Anna, And she's got a grand piana, And she ram aram arama, Till the neighbors say "God Damn Her." Cosher has an Auntie Julia, She was taken most peculiar, Something 'appened to 'er liver, And she overflowed the river. Crusher Bailey's auntie Maude Said that children came from God But it wasn't the Almighty That lifted up her nightie.

(I sent these up to DT 7/16/98)

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Hob Y Derri Dando
(Traditional)

The Mystic Seaport Chanteymen sing: I'll sing the bass and you sing the solo   Hob-y-derri-dando  All about the clipper ship, the Marco Polo   Can-y-gan-y-eto  See her rolling through the water   Jane, sweet Jane I wish I was in bed with the old man's daughter   Jane, Jane, come to the glen,        }  To sing praise to Siani Fach fain    } x2 Davy, Davy comes from Nevin  And he's got a sweet little engine  And he thinks so much about it  Oh, that he cannot do without it  Davy, Davy's sister, Dinah  Was a-working on the bliner But the manager did sack her All because she chewed his best tobacca Davy, Davy in sailor heaven They caught a shark in the reach of Nevin All he asked for was a pie-dish All for to cook them bits of shark-fish You sing the bass and I'll sing the solo  All about the clipper ship the Marco Polo  See her rolling through the water  Oh, I wish I was in bed with the old man's daughter   Jane, Jane, come to the glen,      }  To sing praise to Siani Fach fain  } x 5

William Pint and Felicia Dale sing: I'll sing the bass and you sing the solo   Hob-y-derri-dando  All about the clipper ship the Marco Polo   Can-y-gan-y-eto  See her rolling through the water   Jane sweet Jane  Wish I was in bed with the old man's daughter   Jane, Jane, come to the glen         }  To sing praise to Sean Foch Foyn  } x2 Davy, Davy comes from Nevin  An' he's got a sweet little engine  An he thinks so much about it  That he cannot do without it  Crusher Bailey had a sister  Laughed like blazes when you kissed her  Couldn't knit nor darn no stocking  But what she could do was shocking  Johnny Jones, he wants a missus  Someone to keep him warm with kisses  Take him round to Bailey's sister  She's so hot she'll raise a blister.     From the CD, Hearts of Gold: "...is one of the few shanties that we've run across of Welsh origin. The chorus has been partly Anglicized. In true folk tradition, we've added a verse of our own invention."  From Pint & Dale's web site at: http://members.aol.com/Pintndale/ [thanx Andy Alexis, Sacramento, CA.]

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Cosher Bailey's Engine

1. Cosher Bailey had an engine  It was always wanting mending,  And according to the power,  She could do four miles an hour Cho: Did you ever see, did you ever see   Did you ever see such a funny sight before?  2. On the night run up from Gower  She did twenty mile an hour  As she whistled through the station  Man, she frightened half the nation.  3. Cosher bought her second-hand  And he painted her so grand  When the driver went to oil her  Man, she nearly burst her boiler.  4. Cosher Bailey's sister Lena  She was living up in Blaina  She could knit and darn our stockings  But her cooking it was shocking.  5. Cosher Bailey's brother Rupert  He played stand-off-half for Newport,  When they played against Llanelly  Someone kicked him in the belly.  6. Cosher Bailey had a daughter  Who did things she didn't oughter  She was quite beyond the pale  But over that we'll draw a veil.  7. Cosher Bailey went to Exford*  For to pass matriculation  But he saw a pretty barmaid  And he never left the station.  8. Oh the sight it was heart-rending  Cosher drove his little engine  And he got stuck in the tunnel  And went up the bloomin' funnel.

9. Cosher Bailey's little engine  Couldn't even sound its hooter  Just to make the steam go higher  He made water on the fire. 10. Yes, Cosher Bailey he did die  And they put him in a coffin  But, alas, they heard a knocking  Cosher Bailey, only joking. 11. Well, the Devil wouldn't have him  But he gave him sticks and matches  For to set up on his own  On the top of Barford Hatches. 12. Cosher Bailey's brother Matthew  Had a job at cleaning statues  But when he was cleaning Venus  He slipped and broke his elbow. 13. Cosher Bailey's Uncle Reg  He did go behind an 'edge,  Uncle Reg is feeling better  But the 'edge is somewhat wetter. 14. Yes, I knew his brother Rupert  When he played scrum-half for Newport  Ah, but when he took up rugger  He looked such a silly billy. 15. Cosher Bailey's sister Hanna  Well, she played the grand pianna  She went hammer, hammer, hammer,  Till the neighbours said, "Goddamn her!" 16. In the choir on Sunday night  We sing better when we're tight  And our version of 'Cym Rhondda'  Makes the angels jive up yonder!

*Exford = Oxford (imitation of Oxford accent) JB; 'Cym Rhondda' = "Kum ronda"
Verse 4 shows a connection to the chantey - "working on the bliner."  Verse 5 shows the rugby connection.

From Digital Tradition, Recorded by MacColl  (Four Pence a Day)

On British Industrial Ballads, Ewan MacColl  sings verses 1,2,3,4,7,8,10,11.
In Irwin Silber's Folksinger's Wordbook, one finds verses 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10,11.

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Subject: OK, we'll try, Page 2
From: Abby Sale
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 08:11 PM

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Crusher Bailey           From Oscar Brand: Crusher Bailey went to college     Hob y deri dando For to get a little knowledge     Let us sing again boys. When the proctor seen him coming,     Jane, sweet Jane, He went right home to hide his woman     Jane, Jane, come to the glen,     To sing praise of Sean Fach Fwyn Crusher Bailey had a sister Laughed like blazes when you kissed her Couldn't knit or darn a stocking What she could do sure was shocking. Listen, I will sing a solo 'Bout his ship, the "Marco Polo" See her puffing through the water Wish I was abed with the captain's daughter Crusher Bailey had a stoker He thought himself a bloody joker Just to watch the steam go higher He'd make water on the boiler. From Oscar Brand's book (Bawdy Songs and Backroom Ballads;  Dorchester Press, 1960; LOC#M60-1010):  --  * liner notes translate as "Sean Fach Fwyn" as "sweet little Jane." [From: Eric Berge] From Susie Cool Foster of the Spiral Circle Crusher Bailey's Auntie Maude Said that children came from God But it wasn't the Almighty That lifted up her nightie.

Did You Ever See From: Why Was He Born So Beautiful           and other rugby songs 1. Oh, I got an Aunty Sissy,  And she's only got one titty,  But it's very long and pointed  And the nipple's double jointed.  Cho: Did you ever see          Did you ever see,          Did you ever see,          Such a funny thing before. 2. I've got a cousin Daniel,  And he's got a cocker spaniel,  If you tickled 'im in the middle  He would lift his leg and piddle. 3. Oh, I've got a cousin Rupert,  He plays outside half for Newport.  They think so much about him  That they always play without him. 4. Oh, I've got a cousin Anna,  And she's got a grand piana,  And she ram aram arama,  Till the neighbors say "God Damn Her." From: John (Yogi) Allen, (Hasher & Rugby enthusiast): Cosher has an Auntie Julia, She was taken most peculiar, Something 'appened to 'er liver, And she overflowed the river. Cosher's little cousin Lily, She played socker for Caerphilly, Ah, but when she took up rugger, Well she was a silly billy, Oh the choir on Sunday night, Sing much better when they're tight, And their version of Cwm Rhondda,         [ie, "Guide me, O Thou Thou great Jehovah"] Makes the angels blush up yonder.  You should see the bees at Gower, As they flit from flower to flower. You should see them at Llangollen, As they gather in their pollen. Cosher Bailey he did die, In a coffin he did lie, But alas they heard some knockin... Cosher Bailey? - Only joking...

 

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Hob Y Derri Dando
(Traditional)

The Welsh: Ni bu ferch erioed gan laned Hob y deri dando Ni bu ferch erioed gan wyned, Dyna ganu eto Ni bu neb o ferched dynion Siân fwyn, Siân Nes na hon i dorri 'nghalon         Siân fwyn, tyrd i'r llwyn         Seiniwn glod i Siani fach fwyn:         Siân fwyn, tyrd i'r llwyn         Seiniwn glod i Siani fach fwyn. And the English: Never was there maiden sweeter Hob y deri dando More alluring, livelier, neater Hob y deri dando Nor one to my fancy nearer Jane, sweet Jane There is no one I love dearer,         Jane, run down the lane         There in the grove we'll kiss again         Jane, run down the lane         There in the grove we'll kiss again. The Welsh uses old traditional verses / rhymes.  There are another two verses in English and Welsh in this particular book ... Caneuon Cenedlaethol Cymru - The National Songs of Wales, Boosey & Hawkes, which may still be available. From Siân Thomas.

The Welsh: Wyt ti'n hoffi dyri', Derwydd? "Hob y deri dando," Unwaith oerais i o'th herwydd -- Dyna ganu eto: Ym mhob ardal y mae byrdon, Canig hen y co'; Pwy na allant ddweud penillion, Hen gan co Canig hen y co, Hob y deri dan y to. And the English: All the day I sigh and say, love "Hob y deri dando". All the night I dream or pray, love, "Hob y deri dando". Ah, since that first time we met, I do naught but complain, Tho' I fear thou dost forget, I hope on in vain. All night and day, I say and pray for thee, dear Jane.   Also From Siân Thomas,  Published  by Brinley Richards in The Songs of Wales (1873).  These two are the S.Wales ones, In the above version, the English is not a translation of the Welsh.

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Miscellaneous Verses

Sent by Dick Greenhaus: "Cosher Bailey's Engine". Just to make the smoke rise higher,    Jane Sweet Jane, He'd make water on the fire    Jane, Jane, come to the glen etc.     Sent by Kevin Sheils 5. Cosher Bailey's brother Rupert     He played stand-off-half for Newport,     In the game against Llandaff     He got kicked in the elbow.        Did you ever saw, did you ever saw        Did you ever saw, such a funny thing before.   Which may sound grammatically clumsy to the English ear but at least it rhymes :-)

Sent by Joe Fineman Cosher Bailey had a grandma Who could play the grand pianna, And she also played the fiddle, Down the sides and up the middle. Cosher had a brother Matthew Who was always making statues, But one day, while doing Venus, He fell down and broke his elbow. Learned at a rockclimbers' party in Kingston, NY, ca. 1969. Also, there is a stanza is quoted in Goodbye to All That by Robert Graves, one of the student ones.     Sent by Joy Hilbert (of bawdy-l) Cosha Bailey's sister Ella Had a beautiful umbrella And she thought so much about it She would never be without it One day Ella had a date With her best friend's brother's mate 'Twould have been a tale of folly If she hadn't had her brolly   According to Joy Hilbert,  "Folly" was a coded word at the time implying rape.  That is, she went out with someone she didn't know well enough, and he would have raped her if she hadn't hit him with her brolly.  Since brollies are not that vicious as weapons, she probably hit him in the groin.

 

General notes: Thank you for all the help - Anni Fentiman, Ruth Meakin, Andy Alexis, Paul Schoenwetter, Eric Berge, Joe Fineman, Gerry Milne, Kevin Sheils, Steve Ashton - and especially to Sian (Siân) Thomas for all the Welsh material & who did a lot of work, indeed.  The primary versions & details of this fine chantey/love song/political satire are shown.  Any misunderstandings or inaccuracies are certainly my own. Siân (Sian) Thomas http://www.telecottages.org/iws: says Siani Fach fain (pronounced SHAN-ee Vach Vine, using the gutteral "ch" as in German) and it means Slender Little Siani/Janey.  She continues: Two versions: one North, one South Wales.  More or less the same words, but different(-ish) tunes.  The South Wales tune is probably the best known and most used currently, but "usually" with words written this century by a famous Welsh poet, Crwys, about Uncle Dafydd and his suit of homespun cloth courting Siân Fwyn (Gentle).  The Pint & Dale words Crawshay/Cosher Baily words (often sung to quite a different tune here in South Wales) and very popular in the 70s with the rugby fraternity. It is an extension of the very old Welsh tradition of "canu penillion" - singing verses.  You use a popular tune, usually with a nonsense alternative lines, and sing a hotchpotch of verses to them as the mood moves the singer.  Or in groups it becomes "ymryson canu" - contest singing (but more like "bandying" verses).  So, one singer sings his/her verse then someone else has to take it up with something else that fits (either traditional or improvised). Hob y Deri Dando was probably collected first by a man named William Jones around the end of the 18th C. He says that it was noted down from a very old man in the Llangadfan area who, "used to sing with stops and trips".  I don't know what tune the Mystic Chantey-men used, but the meter sounds to me like the North Wales one.  "Stops and trips" refer to the harp accompaniment which would have stood instead of the Hob y Deri Dando line.  When we sing it, we tend to (??) draw out the "dando" to another full bar, and straight into the next line, but the harpers would, apparently rap three times. ("hob y der-i dan-do "tap" "tap" "tap")  Those are the stops.  The Words could be much older than 18th century and connected with an ancient meter of poetry. The "singing with stops and trips" might refer to ... the dancers bow/curtsey to the harp/musicians before the dance begins. "Can-y-gan-y-eto" which is a garbled version of the 3rd line of one Welsh version:  Dyma ganu eto.  (Duh-mah GAN-ee e-to) or (lit.) Here's the singing of it again.  It's  basically the sea-shanty words, as it was never thus connected here in Wales. The Edward Jones (1794) publication and subsequent Brinley Richards one will tell you ..."Hai down i'r deri danno," - (come let us hasten to the oaken grove) is the burden of an old song of the Druids.  The old English song, "Hie down down derry down" &c.," is probably borrowed from the Druidical song."  But "Hob y deri danno" literally means, "The swine (or pig) under the oaks."  It's basically a nonsense phrase these days, but was once a come-on ..."Meet me under the oak, honey!"  The town oak was the meeting-place in general - much like a village square where the youngsters hang out. The old story that the song is an ancient call to worship by the Druid's was set rolling by the original publisher (Edward Jones) in 1794  when London was a-wash with (re-)creating a romanticized Druidic movement.  EJ took it from Wm. Jones' report that Hob y deri dando referred to the Oak grove.  Yes, Oaks = druids ... but it was also a choice spot for young lovers, which brings us tidily back to Jane, Jane, come to the Glen which was, in Welsh, Siân, Siân, come into the bushes (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) -- Gerry Milne noted:  Stan Hugill gave both Welsh and English versions in Shanties from the Seven Seas, where he says it was one of the two popular capstan shanties sung by Welsh crews, the other being "Mochyn Du", or "The Black Pig".   The tune to "Mochyn Du" is the same as "Cosher Bailey" as sung by rugby fans and the folk world. The shanty that Abby heard at Mystic  goes to a totally different tune:- -- Kevin Sheils: As to meaning of 'bliner' -- 'bliner' could be the Bleanau Ffestiniog railway in the Snowdonia region (spelling may be iffy here).  Or possibly it's a corruption of Baleana (sp?) the ship in other nautical songs. -- Siân Thomas: Given the reference to Nefyn, it could well be Blaenau  (pron. Bline-eye), which was and is a huge slate quarrying town in Snowdonia.  It would have shipped it's slate around the world, and freighted it out from Blaenau by train to Porth Madog. -- The "happy?" file gives us: "As a result of the Grouping (ie, of 123 separate railway companies into just four) the Taff Vale Railway ended as an entity on 1 Jan 1922.  The original 1836 line ran 32 miles, including some short branches, from Merthyr Tydfil to Cardiff Docks.  Its coal traffic became enormous, as shown by its having 271 locomotives working over just 124 miles. The line was built by the ironmaster, Cosher Bailey.  Personally driving the engine on its first trip, he got stuck in a tunnel." -- There cannot, of course, be any factual connection between any Bailey and a steam engine and the famous sailing ship, Marco Polo "puffing through the water." -- Some of the extreme glee with which Bailey's difficulties are treated - as well as the enthusiam of the bawdy verses - may be set against the historical man.  According to A Brief History of Wales  (http://www.britannia.com/wales/whist14.html)  for the year 1839:  "In May, The Cambrian reported on an anti-Chartist meeting held the previous month, chaired by Crawshay Bailey, (the iron master of Dowlais, in the Merthyr District, who had fortified his mansion against possible assaults from his own workers). It seemed that many of the iron masters were terrified of the new radical movements that were spreading throughout the valleys. Bailey spoke, he said, to 'counteract the baneful effects of the principles of the Chartists and to show the inhabitants of this place who are their real friends.' He had known some of the protesting workers for 20 years or more, he said, and they should be grateful for his favours, as none of the Chartists will give them employment as he had done. Reminding his listeners of all the work he had brought to the valley 'from Brynmawr to Aberbeeg,' increasing its population from 200 to more than l0,000, he would as rather sacrifice his life, he went on, than lose any of his property."

(Seems there's a page size limit here)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: sian, west wales
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 04:37 AM

Bloody 'ell, Ab! Well found! I'd forgotten most of that stuff! This time I'll copy and save somewhere safe!

One reflection: if people are going to keep the 'Siani fach fain/fwyn' words, I don't understand why they use 'Jane' in the rest of the song?

Small point - that URL given in connection with 'moi' is obsolete.

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: MMario
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 08:54 AM

wow!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:03 PM

Wonderful sets of lyrics for Hob-i-derry... and Cosher Bailey, posted by Abby Sale! Hadn't seen this thread before.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Nerd
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 03:58 PM

I heard it with the last line:

to sing praise to the shelly-back boy,

which refers to shellbacks, or sailors. I can't for the life of me remember where I heard it, though, 'cause I've known it for years! This is all great stuff; I love the 18th and 19th Century druidical interpretations--so farfetched, yet so interesting nonetheless in the mere glimmer of possibility!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Dead Horse
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:14 PM

Fantastic! Great stuff, Abby.
I've just learned the Welsh chorus from the singing of Baggyrinkle Shantymen from Swansea, after having only just learned the Anglicised version. Can't say as I care much for the intrusion of verses from Sally Brown, when there is so much else available that has a Welsh flavour. From now on I shall only sing the Sally Brown verses when doing that shanty, and Bully In The Alley.
Thanks Abby, and thanks again to Baggyrinkle.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Abby Sale
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 06:55 PM

Dead Horse: Ta. An interesting item to me -- I first got interested in the song hearing it at Mystic Fest in 1998. The refrain was sung slowly & deliberately. This year at Mystic the song was sung more often but the refrain was rapid and tossed off. Then I learned that the Baggyrinkles were there and seemed to think they had more knowledge of the song than Americans. Can't imagine why. But everyone else there instantly sang it the Baggyrinkle way. Interesting.

Good group. Hi, Cap'n Jack, if'n yer out there.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: BanjoRay
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:15 PM

Looking back in this thread I see Roger the Skiffler wanted to know if Hob Y Deri Dando was a Welsh TV program in the early sixties - the answer is yes, I know 'cos I was in it - it's my claim to fame. Five of us in Aberystwyth University (Paul Darby, Barry Keywood, Brian Moss, Ray Banks and Eiri Jones) called ourselves the Virginia Bootleggers, and we went up to the BBC Studios in Bangor to record it. It was run by Meredith Evans (I think), and took place in a studio made to look like a barn, with bales of straw to sit on. We sang two Carter family songs in Welsh Virginia accents, while the rest of the show was in the Welsh language. Recording techniques being what they were, the whole half hour had to be done in one go, and we had to do the whole program three or four times before Mered declared it OK to record it, thus somewhat losing the spontaneity of this "informal" folk show. None of us had access to a TV, so we never saw saw it, but I heard reports that the folk world didn't think too much of the series.

Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: sian, west wales
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 02:56 PM

BanjoRay, I'm impressed! I'll be seeing Mered (Meredydd) this weekend - I'm going to ask him if he remembers!

Back to Cosher Bailey, I've had a quick re-read of the above ... and I don't see that we ever actually named the tune to Cosher Baily/ Mochyn Du: "Lili Lon".

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 04:15 AM

Apart from the versions listed by Abby, this one is also heard, with a distinct first verse, before other singers 'volunteer' verses.
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO WALES
(Traditional)

Have you ever been to Wales,
Where they brew the finest ales,
If you want to drink on Sunday,
You have got to wait 'till Monday.

Did you ever see, did you ever see, did you ever see such a funny thing before?

Crawshay Bailey's brother Norwich,
He was fond of oatmeal porrige,
But was sent to Cardiff College,
For to get a bit of knowledge.
(Found at This message
The first verse relates to the long-standing effect of the "Lord's Day Observance Society" and the banning of pubs opening on Sundays. This law was rescinded on a piecemeal basis, with each county voting, every 10 years or so, whether to repeal the law by local referendum . For a long time it was possible to find examples of border towns (County borders) where crossing a bridge was enough to put you in a different county with different licensing laws.
The law did not, however, affect private members clubs. This accounts for the proliferation of social, political, and 'working mens' clubs in the S.Wales valleys.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 06:43 AM

Comparing all the versions, it is clear that the similarities far outweigh the differences, but the differences identify them. However, verses creep from one version to another, get changed, and creep back.
It is an oversimplification to state that the "Cosher Bailey" verses are historic, and usually in the past tense ("Cosher Bailey had a sister; Laughed...) while "Did You Ever See"(Was you ever saw/ Have you ever been to Wales) is present tense "I've got a cousin Daniel and he's got a cocker spaniel". But it is a simplification which generally works.
However, all the Cosher Bailey verses seem to deal with Cosher or his relatives, whilst the other versions allow people to add verses about their own (fictitious) relatives. Clearly, any verses can be slightly re-written and cross over to another version.
Much is gained and lost by the aural tradition. Verses heard once can easily change, as in " I know there was a verse about a rugby player, but I can't remember the name, only the punchline" (or remember the name but not the punch line). Hence:

Oh I've got a cousin Rupert, He plays outside half for Newport
They think so much about him, That they always play without him.
                and
Oh I've got a brother, Kelly, Who plays rugby for Kidwelly
In a game against Llanelli, Someone kicked him in the belly.

I've deliberately shown these as two double lines to show how easily the two halves of verses could be switched without affecting the song.

There is also a tendency for the words to be rendered in a 'Valleys English' style. This may be the original form, but it also seems to be done for effect. One of the main ways this is done is in the use of idiomatic verb formations, which, by their very use identify the version as being from S. Wales. e.g.
Oh, I've got a cousin Anna, And she's got a grand piana,
And she ram aram arama, Till the neighbors say "God Damn Her."
(or, She plays hammer, hammer, hammer, bloody hammer, hammer, hammer)
        can sometimes be heard as:
Oh I've got a cousin Anna, She do play the grand piana
She do also play the fiddle, Up the sides and down the middle.

The version from "Why was he born so beautiful...." clearly has been collated quickly. It has no starting verse as such, and the first verse quoted:
Oh, I got an Aunty Sissy, And she's only got one titty,
But it's very long and pointed And the nipple's double jointed.
          I have heard as Aunty Kitty, which provides the rhyme. However, Aunty Kitty is also seen elsewhere:
Oh I've got an Aunty Kitty, And she plays for Cardiff City (Association Football team)
But when it comes to rugger (Rugby football), She's a dirty little bugger/player.

This highlights another source of variations. I often heard this song sung on rugby trips, and on church outings. On church outings, and in the presence of young children, it became standard to 'fudge' the rhyming punchlines, hence "she's a dirty little player". But the revisions become standardised, giving us yet another set of verses.:
Oh I've got an uncle Russ, And he drives a motor bus.
And when you press the bell, OH the bus it goes like...lightning

Oh I've got a cousin Drake, and he thought he was a snake,
He was sliding through the grass, So I kicked him on the ..Elbow

I'm sure there's much more yet to be said on this subject, but for now this is my two penn'orth

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Micca
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 12:26 PM

and ,of course, one of the verses I learned from Rugby players,
I had an uncle Mike
who used to ride a bike
but hes never been the same
since he caught it in the chain
did you ever see.. etc..

and just for fun

My fathers cousin Myron
Fit the engine with a siren
And he worked on her as fireman
From Crewe to Llanfair Caereinon

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 02:09 PM

Back to Abby's posting of 7 Aug '01, the 'Traditional' South Welsh version quoted from Brinley Richards "The Songs of Wales" goes on to a second verse which Abby hasn't posted. (Lucky me, I just picked up an 1879 re-print of the book for £3-99 at my local OXFAM shop. They had a second copy with the last dozen pages ripped out!)

Verse 2

Buom unwaith yn gariadon,
"Hob y deri dando,"
Ti a geisiaist dori'm calon,
Dyna ganu eto;
Am fynudyn pwy fu'n hidio?
Druan am dy dro,
Deri dando wyt ti'n gwrando?


Nigel
Hen gân co,
Canig hen y co,
Hob y deri dan y to.

Verse 2 (English words by Walter Maynard same source)
And as oft I sigh and say, love,
"Hob y deri dando,"
I ask why thou dost delay, love,
"Hob y deri dando,"
Can it be thou heedest not If we ne'er meet again?
Am I then so soon forgot?
Do I love in vain?
All night and day I sigh and pray for thee, sweet Jane.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 02:17 PM

Somehow my name split the Welsh verse above, rather than coming at the end of the message!!!
Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 02:48 PM

The same book also quotes the North Wales version. Which, for the sake of completion...

UNWAITH ETO ("HOB Y DERI DAN-NO")
Traditional (Eng. words Walter Maynard)

Unwaith eto mi ddywedaf
"Hob y deri danno,"
Sian, fwyn, Sian?
Nid oes tês ar amser gauaf-
Dyna ganu eto,
Sian, fwyn, Sian.
Ond mae Sion yn wrth heneiddio-
Dal di sylw Sian.
Efo cariad yn gwefreiddio;
Sian fwyn tyrd i'r llwyn,
Seinaf enw Siani fwyn, Sian, fwyn Sian.

Llawer gauaf haf a gwanwyn
"Hob y deri danno,"
Sian, fwyn, Sian!
Wnaeth fi'n foel a thithau'n felyn:-
Dyna ganu eto,
Sian, fwyn, Sian.
Nid yw henaint o un d'ioni:-
Dal di sylw Sian.
I wneud cariad ieuanc ocri:
Sian fwyn tyrd i'r llwyn,
Seinaf enw Siani fwyn, Sian, fwyn Sian.


All the day I sigh and say, love
"Hob y deri danno," Jane, sweet Jane:
All the night I dream or pray, love,
"Hob y deri danno". Jane, sweet Jane.
Ah! since that first time we met,
I do naught but complain,
Tho' I fear thou dost forget,
I hope on still in vain.
All night and day,I sigh for thee, Jane sweet Jane.

And as oft I sigh and say, love
"Hob y deri danno," Jane, sweet Jane!
I ask why thou dost delay, love
"Hob y deri danno". Jane, sweet Jane.
Can it be thou heedest not if we ne'er meet again?
Am I then so soon forgot, and do I love in vain,
All night and day I sigh for thee, Jane, sweet Jane.


Source: "The Songs of Wales" Edited Brinley Richards; pub. Boosey & Co. (fourth edition 1879) P 66

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Compton
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 06:32 PM

The TV show "Hob y deri dando" went out nationally...in the days when Folk Song made the tele,.Can't help thinking a welsh comic/ poet (duo) Ryan and Ronny were involved. Another programme that was on about that time was "Poems and Pints"...when regional TV did go nationwide. Why can't it now!

Subject: Hob y Deri Dando - complete lyrics
From:
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 01:01 AM

Some shanty singers were looking for the lyrics to Hob y Deri Dando (Take him 'round to Bailey's sister...)

See inharmonysway.org for the lyrics. cac

Subject: RE: : Hob y Deri Dando
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 01:44 AM

Hi, diplocase - I moved your request here so we wouldn't split the discussion. Take a look above and at the crosslinked threads and lyrics, and see if what you seek has already been posted.
-Joe Offer (e-mail sent)-

Subject: Lyr Add: HOB Y DERI DANDO
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 07:20 PM

I got a nice e-mail from diplocase. I think he meant to refer to a Website titled www.inharmonysway.COM - he was impressed by the following line:

"Take him 'round to Bailey's sister; she's so hot she'll raise a blister!"

If you look at the "In Harmony's Way" website, you will see the faces of several suspicious San Francisco characters (many of them Mudcatters) who might be responsible for a line like that. Here are the complete lyrics from the "In Harmony's Way" version:

Hob Y Deri Dando

I'll sing the bass if you sing the solo,
Hob Y deri dando.
All about the clipper ship the Marco Polo.
Can ye gan ye eto.
See her rolling through the water,
Jane, sweet Jane.
I wish I was in bed with the captain's daughter.

Jane, Jane, come to the glen,
To sing of praise to Johnny Fach Foyn.
Jane, Jane come to the glen,
To sing of praise to Johnny Fach Foyn.

Davy, Davy, comes from Nevin,
An' he's got a sweet little engine.
An' he thinks so much about it,
That he canot do without it.

Davy, Davy and sailor Evan,
They caught a shark on the reach of Nevin.
And all they asked for was a pie dish,
Thought they washed them bits of sharkfish.

Crusher Bailey had a sister,
Laughed like blazes when you kissed her.
Couldn't knit nor darn no stocking,
But what she could do was shocking.

Johnny Jones he wants a missus,
Someone to keep him warm with kisses.
Take him 'round to Bailey's sister,
She's so hot she'll raise a blister.

I'll sing the bass if you sing the solo,
All about he clipper ship the Marco polo.
See her roling through the water,
I wish I was in bed with the captain's daughter

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Joe_F
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:20 PM

Where, pray, is Barford Hatches, and why would it be an appropriate place for someone to set up a private hell?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Snuffy
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:17 PM

Nobody is quite sure, but it has been discussed here on folkinfo.org

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Joe_F
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:41 PM

Thanks for the link, Snuffy. I suppose it must have been an obscure local reference that got frozen & perhaps distorted. None of the suggestions seems to take into account that B.H. has to be something you can be on the top of (a hill? a building?). "Sticks and matches", at any rate, are more plausible materials for setting up a small hell than "stakes and patches" as MacColl sings.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Snuffy
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:08 AM

I don't know what Hatch means in place names (Brands Hatch, Hatch End, etc), but I have always assumed it was some sort of woodland. These are often on top of hills, and highly combustible ...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Joe_F
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:13 PM

The OED has six distinct nouns "hatch", but none of them is any help. Sigh.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: SussexCarole
Date: 21 May 08 - 03:05 AM

From the Dictionary of Sussex Dialect... Hatch "In names of places probably means a gate".

It is usually found on the borders of forest

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Barbara
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 03:49 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Dead Horse
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 06:00 AM

That line "I wish I was in bed with the old mans daughter"
I try to sing it as "I wish I was in Beddw with the old mans daughter" so giving it a sort of single entendre.....:-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Dead Horse
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 06:01 AM

Forgot to add
Beddw being a Welsh place name.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Barbara
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 05:31 PM

I've been learning Hob Y Deri Dando to sing at the Portland Bridgetown Morris Men's informal sing after practice -- at whatever pub they haven't been kicked out of yet -- and I took the verse quoted above

Oh I've got a cousin Rupert,
He plays outside half for Newport
They think so much about him,
That they always play without him.

and turned it into

I've got a cousin name of Tom Brown
He dances in the Morris side with Bridgetown
And they think so much about him
That they always dance without him.

Blessings,
Barbara