Digital recording/editing

Subject: Digital recording/editing
From: GUEST,Bouzouki Bob
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 10:36 PM

I have just returned from "The Woods" Music and Dance Camp. I had borrowed a J V C Mini Disk recorder, and recorded 15 to 20 hours of lessons, workshops jams and concerts. Now I want to transfer them on to my computer to edit, label, and weed out the un-wanted material. I intend to make a few CDs to send to friend who were there.(without recorders) Any help on computer programs, techniques, filing ideas, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 01:33 AM

I hope the people who you recorded gave you permission to record them--making and giving out CD's is not quite the same as the old process of making cassettes and for one's own personal use, and there are a few people around who might be a bit unhappy to find that someone, somewhere, is teaching their dances using recording of their lessons, which would be very easy indeed, not to mention the musicians--

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: English Jon
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 06:27 AM

"making and giving out CD's is not quite the same as the old process of making cassettes and for one's own personal use"

isn't it? - think you're on dangerous ground with that one M.Ted!

Anyway, we'll assume that these are legit recordings:

For PC I would recommend something like Cool Edit to do the chopping up. Sound forge is O.K. (great for processing), but it's edit facilities are a bit lame. (try taking a five minute song and cutting two seconds of silence off the begining. It takes ages, as it deletes one sample at a time and then shuffles everything back!)

Without hearing the tapes I don't really know what to suggest for cleaning up the results. Mini disk is generally pretty clean anyway. Normalize peak levels to about -6 dB (so you've still got a bit of headroom) - if the tapes are really noisy, try to find a section of just noise. You can then use this to make a profile of unwanted frequencies that you can then strip out of the whole file. You may want to compress the results slightly for a punchier sound.

Hope that helps.

EJ

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 09:43 AM

I was also going to suggest Cool Edit. You can run a cable from the minidisk line out to the computer line in and record directly onto Cool Edit. It's simple to chop it up and there is a noise reduction feature too (that might be extra, but it's not much). It is easy but tedious, if you have that many hours to go through!

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 12:45 PM

I'm not the one on dangerous ground, Jon.

At any rate, I am not bringing this up on strictly legal grounds, I doubt anyone would go to the trouble of suing, but if you are not careful, you can create bad feelings and animosities that last for a very long time-- The world of folk music and dance is a small one, the dance people particularly are often very territorial about their work(not being judgmental here, just pointing out a fact), and I have seen dance leaders, in innocent enthusiasm, recreate someone's workshop when they get back home, duplicate it a few times, and then have the original workshop teacher say, "Who the hell do they think they are. stealing my dances, my breakdowns, even my jokes, and passing themselves as experts?"

Like I said, a cassette is one thing, because the recording quality isn't that good to begin with, and the copies will even worse, but with a CD, you can clean it up, re-arrange, organize, and circulate it to others, eager to use it to teach, learn, give workshops of their own, heck, even start a performing group--

As I said, bad feelings can last for years, so be a bit circumspect--

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 01:00 PM

In the US, even if the material performed or taught is not copyright protected per se, recording and distributing it without permission is, I believe illegal. We had a court case in our area about a university professor's conduct in that area. I believe he recorded and then reused material from a workshop he had attended.

Even if the presenters ere fine with on-site recording by participants for their own use, I think the right thing to do would be to make the project available to the presenters, and ask them to OK what you do. They may see it as a fantastic resource, and an opportunity to extend their work, and since it IS their work shouldn't that decision be up to them?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: IvanB
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 06:41 PM

M. Ted, I don't think the recording medium makes much difference. Although casettes may not be as 'clean' as a mini-disk, they can still be cleaned up pretty well on a computer.

At most festivals I've attended, workshop leaders were pretty cool with people recording their sessions. I don't know that they'd be as much so if they knew someone was going to be distributing the recordings, though. If I made copies of a workshop (something I'd not ordinarily offer to do), I'd certainly want a commitment from any friends to whom I distributed those copies that the copies wouldn't take on a life of their own, being copied and recopied ad infinitum.

Certainly, circumspection is in order, but I don't think that's so just because it's CD's we're discussing rather than cassettes.

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 06:57 PM

SoundForge is a good editing package, mine is 5 years old and I find it far richer in function than I need, and I am a whistle and bells man. Save using MS recorder as WAV in sections and cut to taste. Stitching is easy if there is enough overlap in your clips.
In the UK if you have the permission of one person on the recording and the material is out of copyright/in public domain then you are in the clear, legally. The moral argument says "ask first". There may be a lot of people to ask!

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: GUEST,Bouzouki Bob
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 08:22 PM

Thank you all for your information so far. Your concerns may be valid in certain situations, but at our music camp, we were encouraged to record lessons and workshops. The Mini Disk, and microphone were placed in the centre of the circle,in plain view of all in attendance. For the record, the one performance I taped by professional musicans, (who are my friends), I had asked their permission in advance, and they had no problem. I don't plan to make any copies of the concert, it is for my own enjoyment. I am still a little mystified about the computer editing aspect, so a little more help in this area would be appreciated. BB

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 11:34 PM

Bob -

One thing to note - even with a program like Cool Edit, you still need a program that will take the file you create and burn it onto a CD. Assuming that you have a CD burner in your PC, you probably already have the software to create a CD. You will also need a program to create a label. I am not aware of any single program that will ADEQUATELY give you the ability to record, edit, burn a CD, and label it.

I use Cool Edit 2000 to edit my radio shows, and I record my interviews on Mini Disc as well. The setup that someone mentioned above - running it to your computer's "line in" is correct. You will have to adjust levels a bit with your computers mixer. If you really want to get fancy and your MiniDisc has an optical line out, you can buy a card for your PC that has an optical line in.

If you want to find out more aobut Cool Edit, check them out at Cool Edit

Unless you plan on building a studio to record the next Madonna album, use Cool Edit 2000 instead of Cool Edit Pro. Pro will give you the capability of 64 track recording - just the thing most folkies need!! Seriously, Cool Edit 2000 will be perfect.

There are probably cheaper and easier programs than Cool Edit 2000, but from my experience this program is well worth the money, especially if you have other editing uses.

Ron

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 11:39 PM

By the way... I can't stop singing the praises of MiniDiscs!! I wish more people would use them. They won't replace CD's, but they will replace cassettes.

As Bob mentioned, they are perfect for useing in the field to record workshops (and yes, some of you might even think about recording concerts. I wish Mini Disc's were around when the Dead had their taper section!!)

They are so easy to carry, I can usually put it in my jacket pocket. They can record 74 minutes, or if you have ability to record in mono you can double that. I can see it in use for recording classroom lectures. Perfect! The quality is near-CD. As I mentioned, I use them for interviews and they are far superior to the very expensive Marantz cassette recorders we used to use.

Sorry for the pitch! I work on a non-commercial station and every now and then I like to do a commercial!!! :)

Ron

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 11:56 PM

Thanks for callin the radio show on Monday Bob. Glad you enjoyed yourself. The Woods is simply unique. A wonderful experience.

Rick

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 01:07 AM

I didn't mean to impune either mini-disks or CDs--I was just saying that recording(in any medium) for personal use is a lot different from taking what you have recorded and editing it down to a CD that you can later give out--(I am over the edge here, and putting way to fine a point on this, I know, I was just mentioning it in passing)

An analogy would be the difference between making written notes for future personal use, and making written notes that are later turned into say, an instruction manual--

Not a major point, just a thought--really, just a thought--everyone go back to the discussion of Cool Edit, which is actually useful--

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 09:21 AM

M. Ted,
Actually, your point it is a major one or will soon be one. It is one I am currently wrestling with. I am not as concerned with legal issues as I am with moral issues. For example, if I record an event which is to some extent "public" (e.g., an open campground jam), what are the moral constraints to making that recording available to people who did not participate in the event? What are my obligations to the participants, if any?

I like your analogy about "rough" notes as opposed to an instruction manual prepared from such notes, but unfortunately it doesn't immediately clarify things for me. I am just as ethically uncertain about the notes as I am about the field recordings.

With a minidisc recorder, an entry-level pc with appropriate software, a CD burner, and a digital camera amateurs can create CDs that not too long ago would have been comparable to low-end professionally produced efforts. Such CDs are also a snap to reproduce. Changes all the rules.

By the way, I use and am willing to recommend SoundForge. I don't take advantage of most of its functionality and certain functions are way too slow (e.g., deleting and cutting), but I found it relatively easy to learn the functions I use. I use Adobe Illustrator for the labels.

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 09:22 AM

M. Ted,
Actually, your point it is a major one or will soon be one. It is one I am currently wrestling with. I am not as concerned with legal issues as I am with moral issues. For example, if I record an event which is to some extent "public" (e.g., an open campground jam), what are the moral constraints to making that recording available to people who did not participate in the event? What are my obligations to the participants, if any?

I like your analogy about "rough" notes as opposed to an instruction manual prepared from such notes, but unfortunately it doesn't immediately clarify things for me. I am just as ethically uncertain about the notes as I am about the field recordings.

With a minidisc recorder, an entry-level pc with appropriate software, a CD burner, and a digital camera amateurs can create CDs that not too long ago would have been comparable to low-end professionally produced efforts. Such CDs are also a snap to reproduce. Changes all the rules.

By the way, I use and am willing to recommend SoundForge. I don't take advantage of most of its functionality and certain functions are way too slow (e.g., deleting and cutting), but I found it relatively easy to learn the functions I use. I use Adobe Illustrator for the labels.

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 12:36 PM

Russ, here's how I see this one, FWIW.

A ticket to hear is not a license to save others the cost of the ticket or the cost of other ways of hearing the performer, through their recorded works. On the other hand, a performer without recorded works might appreciate you sharing a meatball-sound-production clip with someone who might buy a ticket NEXT time and that kind of support can lead someone in the direction of eventually having material recorded for sale. I think that's where the cart joins the horse-- what will the outcome be for the performer and for the people who sponsored the event of which you bought a timeshare of listening time. And what was the purpose of the event itself-- LIVE music in a certain setting.

Here is an example. I carry a handheld tape recorder to catch tunes I make up as I go about, or tunes I may hear that I want to be able to study and perhaps learn, that I can;t capture otherwise. I happened to have it in my purse, from a long day's car ride, when we went to hear a certain Mudcatter perform. He's a MudPal-- a limited but close relationship. One tune he played was a fiddle tune I thought my husband might be trying to learn without ever having heard it. I taped about half of that tune, for that sole purpose of catching the feel of the melody. Later in the set I taped what seemed like an astounding moment of stagecraft where a young audience member came up to share the mike on an amazingly fast and difficult tune-- thinking, maybe he'd like a memento of the moment in his life when he shared the spotlight. And I let the performer know I had done this before passing either item on-- asking if he wanted the tape for any purpose, and giving an opportunity for him to let me know if I had done wrong. But although I have a lot of other MudPals, I would not share that tape with them-- because the point of that whole evening had been, "You had to BE there."

See?

Does that help any?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 03:06 PM

Russ,

Even though this seems like a 'Brave New World Problem" created by technology, it is really a very old problem--you have always been able to pick up tunes and lyrics, stories, dances by ear, and of course, make of them what you will--what you can use and what you can't is an area that no one is ever sure about--most of the time, people realize that it is more trouble fighting over it than it is worth, and they let it go--we have moved into a time where people think that there is a lot more at stake than there really is though, and so it is now a hot button--

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 05:04 PM

It is a good discussion, but I think we've gone off on a tangent.

Based on the initial note, Bob was at a music camp and I'm inferring (based on his note and experience at other such events) that recording of workshops was permitted. I've seen events like this were they encourage people to bring recorders. Bob asked some technical advice on how to make CD's from his mini-disc for people WHO WERE THERE but without a recorder. Since it appears that they had permission to record and paid to attend, then what Bob is doing is perfectly legit - assuming that the assumptions above are correct.

I know that numerous bands like the Grateful Dead allowed people to record and TRADE tapes - as long as no money was exchaning hands.

But as WYSIWYG pointed out - a ticket is attend an event is not a ticket to save it. Even the Dead had special tapers tickets.

Ron

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 05:23 PM

Ron, say more about Taper's Tickets, would you?

~S~

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 05:38 PM


I'm not into the recording thing, but several people have mentioned CoolEdit, and I believe there's a site link somewhere above.
The program was reviewed briefly in PCMagazine about a year ago, and they gave it a good review, which can still be seen at
ZDNET. I don't have a link handy to the exact article but you shouldn't have any trouble pulling it up.

ZD (Ziff Davis) is a fairly reliable source, although they are mainly into computers and not much into music-and-computers.

John

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 05:52 PM


Apologies to all
My link above got screwed up by my fat fingers - which apparently is somewhat academic because I found a broken link on the ZD site that makes the review unavailable for now. (I have pm'd the ZD webmeister mitcursenundswearen.)

The review was in the February 16, 2000 PC Magazine, and was fairly brief.

John

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: GUEST,Bouzouki Bob
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 06:52 AM

Tthanks for all your input thus far, I will investigate all leads next week, when I have more time. Regards, Bob

Subject: RE: Help: Digital recording/editing
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 08:44 AM

WYSIWYG,
Thanks for the feedback. I am interested in what other people have to say about this issue because I haven't made up my mind yet.

However, my quandary is not about recording the kinds of "performances" that would fit your example. What I have in mind are old time music jams/sessions where taping and sharing tapes is a way of life.

M.Ted,
I am tempted by the notion that what I am dealing with is simply the latest incarnation of an old problem. It's an approach I like and that I've used for other things. The trouble is that when I try to think that way about this situation something doesn't feel right. The problem is made more immediate because I have some kick-ass minidiscs from Clifftop to deal with eventually.

Ron,
Of course we got off on a tangent. This is Mudcat after all.