BS: How many UK folkies does it...

Subject: How many UK folkies does it...
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 07:36 AM

take to change a lightbulb?
.....One if its their own
......
hundreds if its someone elses, most woul d rather sit home discussing why we ever stopped using candles in the first place

The whole PEL thing is really important and yet it looks like most of the people I have heard discussing problems within local sessions here on Mudcat aren't prepared to do something to defend the legality of the very same sessions
It won't go away if you just ignore it, it might be Weymouth today but it could be here, Manchester, your pub, tomorrow

Subject: RE: BS: How many UK folkies does it...
From: GUEST,Sledge
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 08:09 AM

take to change a lightbulb

A: lots, one to do the job and the rest to sing about how good the old one was.

Keep the barrage aimed at Mr Jobsworth of Weymouth going, he may yet see sense.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: How many UK folkies does it...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 08:21 AM

The trouble is tha there's a worry people have that, if they draw attention to places where there have been no trouble with sessions, in this context, that might serve to provoke the bureaucrats into cracking down on them.

There is a real problem in knowing whether sessions are tolerated because the council isn't aware of them, or because there has been a decision by the council not to be repressive and stupid. And a suspicion that, in many cases, it is the former.

I gather there is a suspicion that the council interference that led to the session of English tunes in Waltham Abbey at the Welsh Harp being stopped may have been the result of a complaint by a rival publican who thought that people might be going to the Harp instead of another poub to hear the music.

What would be helpful would be to have some feedback from sympathetic people who have been involved in this from the other end, councillors or council employees. And aboive all, examples of any councils where a formal decision has been made to recognise that these kind of sessions should not normally necessitate a PEL.

(This thread is a spin-off from others, such as Subject: IMPORTANT -ATTENTION ALL MUDCATTERS)

Subject: RE: BS: How many UK folkies does it...
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 08:47 AM

But McGrath I am not asking people to name their favourite session (unlike R2) and cause it trouble. Instead use the one that is out in the open - Weymouth - to object to your MP and get the law changed.

From Home Office circular 13/2000
The purpose of licence conditions is to ensure safety, minimise nuisance and prevent crime and disorder. The nature of any conditions that are attached to a licence inevitably varies according to the venue, the event and local considerations. But there are concerns that some conditions are excessive, that they replicate other regulations or are inappropriate to the premises or event. Compliance with conditions clearly adds to the cost of the licence and it is therefore important that local authorities ensure that they are reasonable.

I don't see how this regulation could possibly be meant to stop sessions and therefore the local authorities are beimg unreasonable

I just see the same names appearing on the other thread and wonder what everyone else thinks, even if they have a different point of view, and why they are keeping so quiet?

Subject: RE: BS: How many UK folkies does it...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 12:21 PM

I've just put that quote up,on the BBC2 site, because I think it's a very useful one for anyone in a dispute with a local council.

I can only speculate why people don't post about this. But I suspect it is a by-product of what I talked about in the last post, a feeling that making any kind of fuss about this might end up making things worse. There's a phrase "repressive tolerance" and I think it's relevant here. It is often possible to buy people off with crumbs. The crumbs have to be just enough to make them valued - and the recipients have to believe that they can be taken away, if there is any trouble. Instead of rights, people learn to make do with privileges.

It's a very very English way of dealing with things. The last people in the British Empire to rise up and demand freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: How many UK folkies does it...
From: Mudlark
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 01:49 PM

I agree, McG of H....about not wanting to raise issues w/any kind of bureaucrat...there is a lot to be said for living in the cracks, keeping one's head down lest it be lopped off. I realize this is NOT a guarantee of safety, and once negative attention has been drawn it is important to fight back, hard.

But my own sense, here in US, is that the only reason a lot of things are tolerated by society is that (so far, at least) there are still fewer bureaucrats than there are of the rest of us. Power corrupts...absolute power corrupts absolutely. And to whatever extent bureaucrats HAVE power, they use it. Maybe I've just lived on the wrong side of society's tracks for too long, but for the most part it is a power I want no part of.

I have sent an email to the address Shambles gave, pointing out the value of local music to tourism, and that Weymouth will certainly lose my tourist dollar if they continue with this rediculous reading of the law...and hope for all our sakes, everywhere, that the light of reason will once again shine upon the land!

Subject: RE: BS: How many UK folkies does it...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 02:35 PM

there is a lot to be said for living in the cracks, keeping one's head down lest it be lopped off.

And there's a lot more to be said for refusing to live that way.

Subject: RE: BS: How many UK folkies does it...
From: GeorgeH
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 07:54 AM

Hear, Hear, McGrath . .

Fight - before it's too late!

G.

Subject: RE: BS: How many UK folkies does it...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 09:51 AM

Here's a link that looks useful Campaign for Live Music (CaLM) - I'll post this in the various threads about this currently with us.

Subject: RE: BS: How many UK folkies does it...
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:51 PM

Just in case you missed this
More comments on the Radio Two folk/acoustic message board from new voices would be really good about now

Subject: RE: BS: How many UK folkies does it...
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 02:45 PM

Thought I'd posted something on this thread last night, but it does not appear to be here. The link to the Campaign for Live Music makes mention of problems with Camden Council in London. This is not the 1st time I have heard of them acting against Folk Music.

Apparently, in the '80s, they trid to have the Educational Charity status of EFDSS removed because, being the "English" Folk Dance and Song Society, they were being racist. It is a story I have heard from several sources, initially when I danced with the King John's Morris in the mid-80s and I would like to learn the truth of the matter. Did this actually happen?

Subject: RE: BS: How many UK folkies does it...
From: AliUK
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 12:44 AM

I have just returned to brazil from the UK. That was after seven years living out here, my wife and I decided to go there ( she's Brazilian) and try it out, I was feeling a little homesick and she wanted to see what it was like actually living there. Well, we lasted 6 months. I have never been so humiliated in my life. Even though I'm British, and ostensibly a citizen, I found that I was being treated like a third class citizen within my native land. I noticed that many ( so called) political refugees had more rights than me ( as a returning native) and I had to battle very hard for the little space that I gained. Even being gainfully employeed cut little ice with the powers that be. Tired and disgusted I came back to a country that affords me at least a little dignity. Don't get me wrong, the people are wonderful in Blighty and I love the culture, but I think I'm going to love it a little from a distance. The jobsworth attitude of UK institutions makes me more than a little sick and this attitude about sessions is just the thin edge of the wedge. The problem with cracks is that they tend to get wider and thinks have a habit of falling in even deeper.

Subject: RE: BS: How many UK folkies does it...
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 10:08 AM