BS: PRS - Friend or Foe?

Subject: PRS - Friend or Foe?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 10:42 AM

Stemming from another thread, about the PEL, I have some questions and comments about the PRS license. The Performing Rights Society (PRS), for those who do not know, are a UK registered charity who 'collect' money for distribution to the copyright holders of songs performed in public.

Owners or licencees of public premises where music is played to the public, be it live or recorded, are threatened with prosecution if they do not pay a fee to the PRS. The fees are charged on a sliding scale - so much per year for the jukebox, so much for TV, so much for radio and so much for live music sessions. It also depends on the audience numbers.

To cut a long story short the PRS have recently clobbered the landlord at the pub which hosts our folk club for around 500 UKP per annum for the weekly folk music sessions. The landlord has decided that, seing as we are the only live music he hosts, he will pass that charge to us. An extra 10 pounds per week will, at best, detract from what we pay the artist - the very people the PRS say they protect - and at worse close us. We have talked to them but they are unrelenting.

We have pointed out that a lot of the material performed is either self penned or 'Trad - Arr. by..' and their only comment is that anyone who writes or aranges material will benefit from the charge. A straw poll amongst the artists we have booked recently revealed that no-one had ever received any monies from the PRS for their copyrigted material.

So questions (in no particular order) -

1. Does anyone out there actualy benefit from the PRS?
2. If someone was to stand up and say they would not pay the fee what could the PRS do?
3. Could we pay the copyright fee directly to the artist instead?
4. Should the landlord have passed the charge onto us anyway? (We have had an, up to now, excelent relationship with him btw)
5. Who realy does get all the money that the PRS take?
6. How would you go about raising the money to pay this charge?
7. Could anyone else form an organisation to achieve the same function?
8. If so, who would you then pay the money to?

I am sure I will think of more, but that will do.

Any takers?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: PRS - Friend or Foe?
From: MMario
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 10:54 AM

same deal as with ascap and bmi here in the states....

Subject: RE: BS: PRS - Friend or Foe?
From: English Jon
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 11:05 AM

Ask Gordon Potts. (Ceilidh Caller - big beard). He works for them, and is likely to be able to give you some sensible answers. He's also a very nice bloke.

EJ

Subject: RE: BS: PRS - Friend or Foe?
From: Ringer
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 01:21 PM

I'm bag-man of the local folk-dance club. About 10 years ago EFDSS wrote to me (I think on behalf of PRS) saying "Pay us x (can't now remember what x was) or, if your society has assets of less than y (ditto for y, but 500 quid comes to mind) you may be exempt, but must subit accounts annually". I ignored the letter and its follow-up and haven't heard anything since. Which is a good thing, because our accounts are basically a big canvas bag into which subs go and out of which expenses come; of written accounts there are none.

Subject: RE: BS: PRS - Friend or Foe?
From: Ringer
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 01:23 PM

PS: to answer your question: "Foe, I think".

Subject: RE: BS: PRS - Friend or Foe?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 10:11 AM

Do you know how I can get in touch with Gordon, EJ? PM me if you have an email or snail mail address.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: PRS - Friend or Foe?
From: Morticia
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 10:28 AM

Don't have Gordon's addy although I could prbably find out but have you tried contacting the PRS direct?This is their home page clickie

Subject: RE: BS: PRS - Friend or Foe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 10:29 AM

Dave I'm guessing but I'd imagine the aritsts your club supports see much if any of the money. I'd think it's the big commercial bands that see the benifit even if none of thier material was ever played during your events.

Sounds like another move to get rid of traditional activities in pubs...

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: PRS - Friend or Foe?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 12:20 PM

I think you're right on both counts, Jon - hence the question about paying the copyright owners direct rather than via the PRS.

I have been in touch with the PRS many a time, Morticia - May as well have tried to shove butter up a hedgehogs a&*e with a hot knitting needle! You just get a 'jobsworth' reciting 'the rules' parrot fasion. They are not interested that we may have to close - just in their pound of flesh.

One thing I did spot when I was looking into various aspects of the PRS was that they do have a fund available to give money to assist new writers. I have enquired if we would be eligable for a grant for, say, a songwriting workshop or competition. Looks like it could be a goer.

I would suggest that anyone could apply for this type of funding for their folk club or festival. Just make sure the proprieter of your venue has paid the buggers first though!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: PRS - Friend or Foe?
From: Morticia
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 04:38 PM

I'm really interested in question 2.If you told them to take a long leap from a short bridge, what legislation could they invoke to back up their demands? If an individual artist could prove you were using their material then perhaps they might be able to make a claim,but are the PRS claiming that they do this on their behalf? By whose authority?

Subject: RE: BS: PRS - Friend or Foe?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 07:15 AM

Exactly, Morticia - A solicitor friend reckoned that if anyone had the time, money and inclination to fight them in court it would make for a very interesting case. Trouble is that they would take the licencee, not the folk club or session organiser, to court. It is unlikely that the publican or whoever would want to fight their corner as the odd 500 quid is very little in comparison to the turnover of the pub. I believe the PRS know this and count on it so the fees will get paid.

What we need is a landlord who is passionate about live music and has the time, money and energy to fight the PRS. Bear in mind that the PRS have the richest and most famous people behind them. Any volunteers?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: PRS - Friend or Foe?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 12:28 PM

Sadly it would seem to be exactly the same situation as the PELs. Traditional activities being affected but not being able to satisfy the conditions imposed. The dispute being seen to be between the licensee and the PRS.

Given the general nature of the music performed in folk clubs, it does seem to be unreasonable to expect the club to pay.

The Human Rights Act, Article 10 freedom of expression may be able to help in this?

How big a problem is this generally for folk clubs?

Subject: RE: BS: PRS - Friend or Foe?
From: vindelis
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 01:01 PM

I have a feeling that in the early 1980's EFDSS were trying to lay claim to the copyright of all traditional English folk songs and that a lot of the proffesional singers who came to our folk club on Portland, were being given a lot of grief by them. I can't remember the exact ins and outs of it, but I do know that these traditional singers were not at all happy at the situation.