BS: America has LOST THE WAR

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:03 AM

IN A DEEP, LOW VOICE

"The Sky is sagging, the Sky is sagging".

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but...
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:26 AM

Good boy John, its nice to see caution rather than hysteria. As Don Rickles would say, "You get a cookie."

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Butch, at work
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:33 AM

Donuel, before making yourself look like a blind, unthinking person, try reading some American history. We have not lost, we have not yet fought this one. By your definition, we lost WWII on DEc. 20th, 1941! I am sure there are a few vets out there (not to mention scholors) who would challange you on your fine conclusion!

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:36 AM

Butch, . To be true to myself and honor the vets and serious posts here I will simply add a quote that suggests why I believe we have lost before we begin.

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction...

The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the darkness... of annihilation."

~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,yeah but...
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:45 AM

Invoking the King is a good literary touch, but producing some actual facts to support the stuff that you have been spouting would get a lot of people off your back.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:09 AM

Does anyone have a coherent idea of just how the US should handle this crisis? And If I hear "JustLOVE them and try to understand them " or a variant thereof one more time, I'm gonna puke.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:11 AM

Donuel,

Are you, as BillD indicated, in the DC area? Am curious to know a bit more about what happened to you on the 4th of July--PM me if you want--

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:17 AM

Once the first reports of killed Muslims at the hands of American forces are broadcast world wide it will be too late to create any lasting icon of a peaceful political solution.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:37 AM

MTed the 4th of July post was a satire of a fictitious incident that occurred 7-4-NEXT YEAR.

Regarding the reality of today: For my wife to get to work she has to allow for an extra 40 minutes per day since they search everyone on the buses she takes to work.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:13 AM

Date: 20-Sep-01 - 04:16 PM

Sourdough, you have fractured the suspension of belief that some of us are in charge:-) With a selected head of state ,trust in a democratic process in times of declared war against John Doe is threatened, no matter how high Shrub's ratings are now.

If we were together on Politically Incorrect I would get the cat calls and cheers and you would get the polite but enthusiastic applause.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR From: GUEST,Yeah but... Date: 20-Sep-01 - 04:20 PM

Could somebody interpret Donuel's last message. My Ph.D. isn't serving me too well in this instance.

OK , Some people here become so embroiled in their interpretations of what our foreign policies should be, they invest in a belief that their opinions may make a difference (as if they are in charge or elections are fair). Sourdough may have brought some of these people down to earth with moderate comments. President Bush is the legitimate President however there is a fear that the democratic process has been dealt a blow. The selection by the Supream Court of Bush may come back to haunt him later after our declared war against all terrorists "in general" is proven to be a tough process with many domestic perils. Despite his current high approval ratings they could drop like a stone similar to his Dads.

My opinions can be inflamatory in title and controversial in satire and may enrage or delight. A moderate approach to common sense will get much more polite applause in comparison.-end of translation for the PHD challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 02:28 PM

Somehow, Donuel, I don't think that they appreciate your Ionesco-like sense of humor.

At any rate, at the rate of 40 minutes a day, your wife will have been detained for more than 48 hours by the next fourth of July, and I am sure that they check ID's on the bus, as well. A few nights back, we drove down Georgia Av., only to encounter a police barricade--nearly twenty police officers, carefully examining each car--not to worry, it was only a "sobriety check"--

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but...
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 02:32 PM

Donuel,

Thanks for rendering it into English. Now that we understand your opinion, care to dazzle us with some facts.....

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:18 PM

We have lost the war. Japanese planes have pulverized our Pacific Fleet. The USS Arizona stands as a lasting monument to our negligence and our defeat. The President has called for War, creating a martial law footing which will rob us of our tradition of freedom. We have no alternative but to surrender our country and hope for mercy.

Donuel, 1941

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:25 PM

Troll,

My opinion, for what its worth, is that:

A/ We continue 'harassing' the Taliban to hand him over... while at the same time continuing to encourage them (through diplomatic means) to continue to 'suggest' to him that he leaves. A re-iteration & clarification of the statement that NO terrorism, ANYWHERE will be tolerated needs to be made again, & again.

B/ We drop food, etc, to the Refugee Camps inside Pakistan. That might go a long way towards keeping the Pakistani Government on our side, despite pressure from sections of their own Population. Hopefully it will also draw more people out of Afghanistan anyway.

C/ Do NOTHING Militarily until we can increase support BY doing nothing.... let more & more Nations fall into line behind us, encouraged by the fact that we are exercising restraint. (I DON'T consider that we can claim that we have, just yet, simply because we havent struck in the past week). That will allow us to build up more & more HUMINT, & other forms, as more & more is processed... doubtless we cant have already discovered all that there is to discover even regarding the events of 11/9. Anyway, its seldom possible to have ENOUGH information about ones enemy.

D/ Bin Ladens assets may have already been frozen since '98, but doubtless there are others in the 'Terrorist community' who might continue to support him, who's assets HAVENT been seized/frozen yet... we need to get Financial Institutions to do just that.

E/ Actively RECRUIT Arabs/Muslims as Translators/Linguists, even Covert Operatives. (An ENORMOUS task, I know.... they would all have to be subjected to the most stringent Security checks, & so on). Naturally, that involves continuing to ensure that those in our own countries are not harrassed, attacked, or intimidated.

F/ Work with the Authorities in 'Palestine'. The Israeli's, to my mind, made a very bold & laudable step in pulling back from the territiories so recently moved into.

G/ Work with ANYONE who will listen, to root out terrorism & potential terrorism wherever, but DO NOT repeat the errors made in setting Bin Laden up to resist the Soviets. Gaddafi, despite the past, has, for a few years now, its reported, has been HOLDING BACK the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism in North Africa.

H/ Keep re-iterating that TERRORISM is the enemy, & NOT those who have made a tool of it in the past. We must not let any of this be perceived as purely against islam, even Islamic Fundamentalism.

Maybe with all this done, & or ongoing, we CAN consign the word terrorism to the history books.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM

Ooops, forgot to say that that's is just my own, half-arsed personal opinion, of course..I'm just a nobody!

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:32 PM

Entry by bus into Federal installations does in fact involve searches - not sobriety searches. If you have not heard of the proposed National Identity Card you soon will.

Some believe the only worthy facts in the conflict involve posting the ravings of terrorists. Others produce no facts at all and smugly snipe the conversation of others. Perhaps they believe they will be merely inconvienienced by the war. They are not expecting to die in the stench of their own small pox pustuels. Escalation to bio war is still unthinkable to some today as last weeks events were back in August.

Calm , cautious , discriminate thinking is not the sole domain of war zealots. In fact I think it is sorely lacking in the war zealot mind set represented here.

I have delineated a well organized response to global terrorism in other threads. You have read them , perhaps you pay little attenion to the attribution of various posts.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 02:52 AM

Hello Donuel As I said in my last post to Deda they have already proven they could hurt us if they so choose.If we let them get away with this then most likely they will step up their attacks they tried to blow up the WTC before nothing was done look what happened. I would also like to point out that 40 minutes of your wifes time every day is nothing if it means she will make it home safely.

Paul from Hull 1)I don't believe we should arrest him remember all the hijackings where their demands were we released one of their leaders.

2)we have sent over 42 million dollars worth of food and medical supplies to pakistan before this even happened let alone the other monetary aid we send. the pakistan government was behind us but factions of the people said they would kill are troops if they went into afghanistan.

3) We need to strike against them now just not Bin Laden and his group but evrywhere these factions are hiding.We let them prepare for us thru our Bsing and inaction more American lives are lost I am saddened that more innocents will have to die in bombings and such but if the garden is choked with weeds even the pretty flowers must go.

4) I also asked if any of you ever had to face the school bully? (might have missed it the way my message got all jumbled together)The reason I ask is because if you haven't I don't believe you understand what must be done.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 03:27 AM

troll,

You said:

Does anyone have a coherent idea of just how the US should handle this crisis?

I've posted this on two other threads as well as this one. The first time was in response to someone's question. I figure it couldn't hurt to post it here, too.

GUEST, just a nobody... we do everything we possibly can to promote, protect, and preserve a coalition with as many countries in the world as we possibly can.

We work together with all of the countries in the coalition to come up with a plan to use diplomatic, law enforcement, and finanial avenues to isolate and starve the organizations who are responsible for the terrorist attacks. This includes holding banks accountable for any help they give to terrorist organizations by sheltering money for them.

We make absolute sure that we do not do anything to destabilize any countries that have governments who are friendly to us or who are willing to help us.

We learn to work with other countries as equals instead of acting like a father figure to them and treating them like children.

If there is anything that is going to save the US, it will be for us to learn that we need the rest of the world, and we need their help as much as they need ours. If we fail to learn this lesson, I fear that we are in very big trouble.

The first and most important thing, in my opinion, is that at this moment in history, perhaps more than any other moment in history, we not only have the compassion and sympathy of much of the rest of the world, we also have their empathy. By that, I mean that they can, probably for the first time ever, see themselves in our shoes. This is very critical, and should not be wasted.

Because of this, they will very probably be willing to work with us and help us, as long as what we propose to do helps all of us. Most other countries probably won't have the burning desire or need for retribution that we have here. Most of them will probably be interested in solving the problem of terrorism, and no more. If we use our military might in a way that destabilizes countries that are crucial to this effort, at least one of which has nuclear weapons (Pakistan), the other countries in the coalition will probably recognize that they will not be helped in the long run by these military actions, that they may, in fact be hurt, and may remove themselves from the coalition.

I did a research paper about a year ago to find out what is the most powerful motivator for people. This was not research that originated with me. I was researching work that was done by others. What I found was that the most powerful motivator is what I would call "enlightened self-interest". By that I mean, people are motivated the most powerfully, and in the most lasting way when they understand how it is in their best interest to behave in a certain way. But what makes it enlightened self interest is the understanding of how what is in their best interest is also in the best interest of others. So, obviously I'm not talking about extortion. I mean people are motivated most powerfully by what is genuinely in their best interest.

If the US says, "You must do what we want or you will suffer in some way", that would be extortion. If we say, "We must work together to find a way to solve this problem in such a way that we all benefit", that would be motivating people through the use of enlightened self-interest.

Once we have built a coalition of willing participants that is based on the idea of enlightened self-interest, we determine what the benefits will be for all of the members of the coalition. The most obvious would be to protect all of us from terrorism. Even the banks will probably suffer in the long run if terrorism is allowed to destroy the economies of many of the richest nations on earth. So, even for the banks, there is an element of enlightened self-interest in helping to eliminate terrorism. In fact, it seems to me that there are probably very few groups, nations, or other interests who would benefit in the long run from allowing terrorism to continue or to flourish in the world.

If we put together such a coalition, we will need to identify what sort of actions would be detrimental to any of the members in the long run. One example of this would be if we caused, through military action in Afghanistan, destabilization in Pakistan resulting in an overthrow of the government now in place which is friendly to us at this time, by Muslim fundamentalists who are friendly with the Taliban. This, of course would be contrary to Pakistan's self-interest (as defined by the majority of people there at this time, which would likely change if we killed a lot of Afghanis), and it would also be contrary to our self-interest, because we would then have two enemies in the place of one, and one of them with nuclear weapons.

You see where I'm going with this. So we form a solid coalition. We work with the coalition as equals, rather than as an authority figure who says, "you're either for us or against us". Then, we put together the best minds that each of the countries in the coalition have at their disposal, and formulate plans to use the tools at our disposal to find out who the terrorists are, and how leverage might be applied to dry up whatever resources they have to help them to accomplish what they are trying to do. And whenever it is possible to, try to take into custody important figures within the terrorist organizations only if doing so does not put any member/countries of the coalition in jeopardy in any significant way.

It seems to me that the most important thing we can do to the terrorists is to remove their sting. Even if they are still walking the streets, if they are perceived as ineffectual and weak by the starry eyed youths whom they would want to recruit, would anyone want to join them, much less give up their life for them? Take away the glory and there is no point in any of it. We don't take away the glory by killing them or making them glorified prisoners. We take away the glory by making them ineffectual.

This isn't in the other posts, but I'm putting it here. I think we need to get our act together with regard to basic security issues as well. Things like the air marshals and better inspection of passengers, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 12:54 PM

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 10:41 AM

. If stopping this war is the question I do not have an answer. It would be like trying to stop 1,000 supertankers at full speed from hitting the statue of Liberty on a 1 mile collision course. ': Time for all these things to happen is compromised when one leads with the fist. You can consult the art of war yourself but if you want literal war strategies HERE is one outlined scenario. Slow down... secretly cease the expected counter attack...A quick reaction would serve our purposes best with a miniature defeat... listen and watch. They will become confused between overconfidence and fear of a belated reprisal causing some mistakes to be exploited. Monitor the reaction when they think there is no massive US reponse. If a call for fatwa occurs more clues will crawl out of the woodwork and we can collect strategic bonanzas. At home there needs to be good old fashioned systemic beurocratic work with complete cross over communication between the CIA,FBI,INO,NSA,CC,DOD,Eschelon,Interpole and others . Recruit the talent you need in cyber and cultural areas that was not available or willing to help us before the attack. Set them apart from in house pros and give them a project similar in scope to WWII code breaking. Use time and sympathy of the International community well. Dry up some financial holdings, but not 'all' so you can still do in depth tracing of the money they try to use. There will be plenty of time through December and January for international support to grow. Beware of revolutions springing up in quasi moderate Islamic states like Saudi Arabia(they are not helping at this time and the King has fled to Geneva). Do not enter into their civil war. Learn from the mistakes of the Gulf of Tonkin resolution and get Congress to ask the hard questions as soon as possible. Blank checks are for blind policy. Appropriate with insight. In forming an international tribunal if the UN will not unaminously support a G5 request form a brand new tribunal consisting of Islmaic judges and near complete international representation , the obvious missing judges would be Isreal , India and perhaps even the US . IF a perception of a puppet or Kangaroo court occurs having the US publicly get denied select outrageous and reasonable requests should solve that. Go to the Hague or create one in Nuremberg if we have to. Based on the intelligence from the US ,interpole and other's evidence is presented for 2 years or more handing down public indictments that would not jeopardize the covert operations of sensitive secret indictments. As in magic , misdirection will be an advantage to get the terrorists not mentioned in the public indictments. If there is an international array of enforcment volunteers make sure they have clear cut warrants and single targets to capture. Make sure Islams know of bounties for certain indictments handed down so even a single modest man could be instrumental in handing over a terrorist. Choose your seasons and tides of PR well. Whatever help moderate cleriks can afford in the months prior to Ramadan and right after will probably be the maximum help they can ever produce. Link further extractions with the most favorable PR afforded by Islams themselves as well as bounties that serve Islam to capture Islam. Do not mix the various tribes of Islam when employing bounties. Like catchs like. Fomenting additional hatred between various branches of Islam is not to our advantage here for many reasons. Of course there are new weapons that can be used without knowledge to the outside world. Many of these as I will call them vibrational weapons are nearly non leathal and can be used with much stealth. Enough said.

Fullfill the capture of the leading criminals the tribunal granted public indictments for and call that a victory. The secret warrants may be done as best advantage allows. But like I said , I think its too late since after our rolling thunder air raid any number of crimes could be alleged against the US true or not here is the other thread.

I gave this crude idea a couple hours of thought and wrote this with no workable knowledge of existing intel programs. No crystal ball but I had inspiration from the likes of the Dali Lama , William Weld and Elvis Prestly : "wise men say , only fools rush in , but Bush can't help bombing Afghan i stan." The public has every right to want to smite the enemy right now - and we may get one or two right away. It seems that there is great hope that prudence is our on side with the statements from the DOD that this will be a very long process.

Setting the correct goal is crucial. Our existing goal is not a precise one "ridding the world of evil" but it will do until time for refining it allows.

Send US toops into the Afgan mountains of 10 million land mines? We are too smart for that. We have an advisor in the defeated Russian general that fought the Afgan war.

There will again be a time when our enemy is again our friend.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Amos
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 10:44 AM

Powell said dismantling the al-Qaida network is the first goal. He also indicated that any military action in Afghanistan, where bin Laden is believed to be hiding, will not be on the scale of the Gulf War.

``Let's not assume there will be a large-scale move,'' Powell said. ``I don't think we should even consider a large-scale war at this point.''

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 04:48 PM

Thank you Carol, Donuel. At least you have put some thught into the sujbect and are not simply shooting from the lip.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: toadfrog
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 05:54 PM

I think, in order to win a "war against terrorism," we would have to eliminate terrorism forever. So we may win battles, but will surely lose the "war." That is considerably more than a semantical quibble. Whoever thought up the expression, "war against terrorism," unnecessarily set the U.S.A. up for an uneccessary defeat, by promissing the impossible.

From what I understand, General Powell is now in charge and is intent on behaving reasonably. If so, Bush deserves credit for letting cooler heads prevail. But his rhetoric is nonetheless foolish and self-defeating.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 06:03 PM

Wow, Toad! I wasn't aware General Powell is president now! I've been watching the news channels and I haven't heard a word about a new election! When did that happen?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 06:54 PM

I sincerely hope you are right, toadfrog. If so, I will feel much more confident in our ability solve the problems we face right now.

Where did you hear this news?

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 07:29 PM

As I said very early on in this whole discussion, be thankful that Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell are in powerful positions. Their politics are certainly not mine, but they are exceedingly competent and will bring a voice of reason to all of this. If Cheney had his way, we would have launched the cruise missiles by now.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: kendall
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 07:57 PM

The Afghanis are not our enemy! We should drop bread on them, not more bombs. Doug, if W has a lick of sense, Powell WILL be in charge. He knows more about fighting than W does.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Guest, Deda at home
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 08:03 PM

According to a wire service piece in my local Sunday paper, the population of Kabul is 2.5 MILLION; Afghanistan is roughly the size of Texas, three quarters of it steep rough mountain, total population about 250 MILLION (still according to today's paper, from a wire service); I found these figures amazing after the posts that have flown around about how Afghanistan has been all but wiped out already. This also puts a different spin on what we know about the Taliban, about girls not being allowed to go to school past the age of 8 and all the other extreme repressions -- this is not just happening for a few hundred or a few thousand or even a few hundred thousand women. I still have trouble believing the numbers and would like to know if anyone can confirm or refute.

In theory I love Amos's idea of getting food to the people with kindly messages, but a vast majority of the population are illiterate, even the men.

In ancient Rome, when the dominant religions included polytheistic paganism (Jupiter, Juno, etc.) and Stoicism, the ethic of life for the educated classes included an obligation of public service -- entering law, politics, or the army, following the Cursus Honoris (Course of Honor). When Christianity took hold, Augustine wrote about the City of God, which meant living with an eye to God, only, which was the opposite of, which he specficically contrasted to, the City of Rome, public service, and the old traditions. Rome fell. Of course this is not the only reason, and of course Rome was no nirvana, but with the shift in emphasis from service due to the city or the empire TO service due only to God, there was no one left paying enough attention, minding the store, or trying to fix what was wrong. Or no one with any education, anyway. The thugs were the only ones left playing.

Rome was: The greatest military power of her day; vast; wealthy; sophisticated; symbolized by an eagle; the one and only true world superpower of the time; widely resented, even hated. Does any of that ring a bell?

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 08:44 PM

I seriously doubt the president is planning military operations, Kendall, anymore than anyother president would do. They all rely on their military advisers. I agree, however, we are very lucky to have the team of advisers Bush has.

I'm not as confident as you, Mick, that the Vice President is chomping at the bit to throw any missiles at anybody. You may be thinking of what the previous administration did under similar circumstances, though.

It seems to me that the administration has shown great restraint, though the majority of the population evidently favors a quick military strike.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 09:55 PM

I agree, Doug, and the administration before did the same. The restraint shown, however, has been by Powell. All reports are that he has prevailed against those that want to go in as quickly as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:04 PM

ROME provides many valuable lessons. There have been a few since then, such as :

Do not fight a war with multiple fronts.

Do not fight a land war in Asia.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:05 PM

Powell is a soldier and -generally speaking- soldiers want to prevent war not wage it. They are, after all, the ones who die.
But the war has been brought to our shores and passions run high. Another atrocity like WTC and it will be hard to stop the planes and missiles.
One thing we could do is not exercise our veto the next time the question of punishing Israel for ignoring the UN sanctions concerning settlments on the West Bank. That would send two clear messages.
1) Israel would learn that we will not back her up if she defies the UN.
2) The Islamic world would learn that we are not willing to be a party to represion.
Then we would have to apply the same even-handed approach to the rest of the world and withdraw support from any regieme we deem opressive.
But to quote Eliza Dolittle, "Not bloody likely!"

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:10 AM

ROME provides many valuable lessons. There have been a few since then, such as :

Do not fight a war with multiple fronts.

Do not fight a land war in Asia.

Donuel, you make good points, but you are prone to overstatement. Did not the US achieve victory in World War 2 violating both of your rules?

True this is not a War of State versus State as in the traditional sense. This is like a massive homicide investigation, and as long as the killers are on the loose we are none of us safe. They have forced us to change our way of living, but I believe it is on a short-term basis, as any community would change its behavior if a mass murder were to take place by persons unknown . If we establish a firm objective (establishing guilt in the attack and punishing those guilty), devise a strategy for achieving this (enlist other nations in an effort to gather evidence in the investigation and capture the culprits), and keep our tactical methods flexible to accomodate the unexpected, I believe we can succeed.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:16 AM

Yep, Leej (great to "see" you), I agree. With regard to the tactical methods, they need to be compact and precise. I have heard much talk about taking out the Taliban. Mistake, mistake, mistake. We need to weaken them, strengthen the Afghan opposition, and let them do it. Trying to take out Hussein is what gave us bin-Laden. Our involvement on Moslem holy soil is one of the key reasons he went radical. My point is that we must approach this in a very slow and calculated fashion, or we risk creating many more bin-Laden's.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:24 AM

Poor Powell, if and when there is an attack, I suppose he will be blamed for not being able to control the Hawks. I still believe, however, that the president is running things.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:30 AM

*grin*

Nice try DougR. If there is an attack and the results cause more problems than they solve, Bush will be blamed for listening to the wrong people.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:43 AM

Mick, I don't believe it was the Gulf War that made bin Laden "go radical". He stated of T.V. That he has hated the US since he was a child. I'll try to find the article.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:49 AM

Mick, I don't believe it was the Gulf War that made bin Laden "go radical". He stated of T.V. That he has hated the US since he was a child. I'll try to find the article.

troll

And here it is: from the Drudge report and the "Online Sun"
TERROR chief Osama bin Laden has called on Muslims to wage war against the "scum" of the West, it was revealed last night.

Bin Laden made the chilling demand in a rare TV interview from his mountain lair in Afghanistan.

The fanatic smirked as he spoke of his "joy and delight" at the 1998 US embassy bombings that killed 224 people. He launched a hate-filled tirade against America and its allies.

Bin Laden called for a Jihad, or holy war, to drive Americans out of Islamic lands. He said: "We cannot leave the house of God to these malicious Jews and Christians.

"Every US man is an enemy. We demand the liberation of our land from Americans. We call on the sons of the Muslim Nation to pursue Jihad and inflict pain on America and its allies.

"We are duty-bound to protect the nation against the US, Israel and their allies, and to resist this occupation."

Bin Laden, No1 suspect for the New York and Washington atrocities, was captured on camera in 1998 by Arabic satellite channel Al Jazera, based in the Gulf country of Qatar.

He predicted a miltary strike against Afghanistan, whose brutal Taliban rulers have sheltered the exiled Saudi millionaire. Bin Laden said: "We have chosen the road for ourselves, and we are not interested by America's missiles.

"We warn them that any strikes against Afghanistan will be seen as a strike against the State of Islam."

Hate-filled ... terror chief wants a 'holy war' against the West

He smiled as he admitted he "incited" attacks on US embassies in Tanzania and Kenya: "The bombing was a grace from the Almighty, bringing delight to the Muslim world."

Bin Laden praised the bombers, and those who attacked the World Trade Center in 1993. He said: "May Allah accept these young men as martyrs in his cause.

"I view with a high degree of pride these great men who lifted the humiliation that had befallen our nation."

But when quizzed about America's claim that he spearheaded the attacks, bin Laden said: "Its allegations are void, unless it meant the association in their incitement. I admit any day that I was the one who endorsed an edict to protect the Muslim nation." He added: "Ever since I was a boy I felt hatred towards the Americans and felt that I was at war against them.

"Three-quarters of the US people support attacks on Iraq. The American President's ratings are high when he kills innocent civilians."

Of the US intervention in Kuwait, he said: "I'm sure that free Muslim women, let alone Muslim men, feel ashamed when such scum as the American army are called upon to defend them."

Bin Laden spoke of war between Muslims and "Zionist crusaders" led by the US and Israel, and called the United Nations an "infidel regime."

He added: "Our enemies move freely in our seas, land and air space, striking without consulting anyone.

"We should learn a lesson from our brothers in Palestine.

"They were known for their export-bound agriculture, citrus fruits and textiles. They later became destitutes and cheap labourers for Jews."

Smile masks a heart of hate

Family pose ... Bin Laden with 22 of his brothers and sisters Picture: CAMERA PRESS

Click to enlarge

THE smiling lad ringed in our picture looks like he doesn't have a care in the world as he poses with 22 of his brothers and sisters.

But the 14-year-old is Osama bin Laden - and within a few years the grinning schoolboy was on his way to becoming the world's most cold-hearted mass murderer. The bin Laden children lined up next to a pink Chrysler Imperial for this snapshot on a trip to Falun, Sweden, in 1971.

The holiday was paid for by their father Mohammed, a billionaire building tycoon. Osama inherited a fortune when his dad died soon afterwards - and used it to build a worldwide network of terror.

Clues that nail warlord

Straw ... dossier of evidence

By SIMON HUGHES

THE Sun today reveals vital clues that have convinced America and Britain that bin Laden was behind the murderous blitz on New York and Washington.

After the attack, a US spy satellite picked up two known associates of the terror warlord talking on mobile phones about "two targets being hit."

Then there is Nawaq Al-Hamzi, 25, a hijacker on the plane that hit the Pentagon.

He had been secretly videotaped by the CIA meeting an associate of bin Laden.

FBI agents further traced the plot to bin Laden by arresting Nabib Almarabh in Chicago.

He had been the target of a long-running probe into bin Laden's ties to the US.

Almarabh, Ahmed Al-ghamdi and Satam Al Suqmi, were suspected of channelling funds to bin Laden bank accounts.

And Al-ghamdi and Al Suqami were among the hijackers. All three had lived in Boston, scene of two hijackings, and where a bin Laden terror cell was thought to be based.

There is also evidence bin Laden made millions from dealing in shares he knew would be affected by the atrocities.

Powell ... 'US has the proof'

Top German banker Ernst Welteke said: "There were activities on the international financial markets that must have needed expert knowledge."

Some prices, like oil and gold, shot up after the hijacks.

Others, like airlines and insurance plunged - and huge profits were made.

Investors do deals to sell later below current prices, thus betting that prices will fall.

US-hating bin Laden was also linked to 1998 attacks on American embassies and is known to be the mastermind behind the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center.

Secretary of State Colin Powell has pledged to reveal US evidence against bin Laden. British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has received a secret four-page dossier blaming him.

MONDAY, 24 SEPTEMBER, 2001

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:09 PM

troll, I have been wondering about what the solution is myself, but being quite ignorant in matters diplomatic & military, I don't know. Being 34 years old I have no real experience with a war-time America... sure, there was Desert Storm, but at the time, I wasn't paying attention.

I understand the importance of protecting the Afghani people from collateral damage, but how can we sit back and just do nothing? It has already been said in several discussions here already that when being nice fails, you can't be nice anymore.

So I don't know. I am hoping for a miracle.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:19 PM

With the proposed freezing of terrorist related accounts I bet processing Swiss accounts have swamped Swiss bankers as money is being moved. IT is probably already there as well as Aruba ,Cayman Islands etc.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:36 PM

Mick; I agree with your suggestion that it would be much better for dissidents inside Afgahanistan were to overthrow the Taliban, and I'd be for us doing anything we need to do to support them.

CarolC: Bush will be blamed for whatever. If it is a definite "screw-up" he would deserve it. If, on the other hand, if whatever happens results in good things happening, he deserves the credit. Fair?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:54 PM

Doug, thats the way it should but the reality is that the screw-ups will be blamed on Bush while the credit for doing it right will go to Colin Powell and others.
Watch and see if I'm not right.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 02:05 PM

Oh, I agree with you troll.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Deda
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 02:42 PM

I'd be curious to know how Doug and troll define "good things happening". More dead Them than dead Us? Do you remember Mark Twain's story about the stranger's prayer?

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 05:29 PM

If Bush listens to Powell, and we have a good result because of it, I will give Bush credit for having enough sense to listen to Powell.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 05:37 PM

Kim C, it sounds like you think that the only two options we have available to us are to use military force, or do nothing. I get the impression that a lot of people in this country think the same way.

The point is that there are many other options that we can utilize before we ever think about using military force. Military force is the approach with the greatest potential for causing the problem to get worse, rather than better. So it should be the last option we consider.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 05:59 PM

Deda, I've seen enough dead people to last me several lifetimes. I can't speak for Doug, but for me "good things happening" would be the cessation of terrorist activity world-wide with as few deaths on any side as possible.
What no one seems to really understand yet is that this is not a political problem of "have vs. have-not".And it can't be solved by throwing money at it. Admittedly it is political in some cases -the ETA (Basque separatists) comes to mind- but not with bin Laden.
Tell me, how do you negotiate with a man who is quite willing to die if he can take you with him? Give in to his demands?
bin Laden wants world-wide Isalm; nothing more, nothing less and he is prepared to kill every man ,woman, and child that he perceives as being between him and his goal. That includes most of us.
A "good thing" would be all of us ( the US and allies) getting out of this alive.
To inject a little sarcasm, I somehow don't think telling Mr. bin Laden to behave or he'll get no jam with tea is going to have much effect.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM

What about the Mongols Donuel? They executed a massive landwar in Asia and Europe, and on Multiple fronts--I thought that you were amusing before, but only because I thought that you were playing the gadfly--if we are actually expected to take the proposals you have made seriously, am not sure what the reason for it would be--

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Deda
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 06:14 PM

I think the original question was about whether Bush should get credit if good things happen. If we can get out of this with relatively few casualties on both sides, I'll give Bush a LOT of credit. It'll be hard for me, because I don't have much respect for him, but I'll do it happily. I'd give a lot more than cheerful credit to someone I generally don't much like, for a resolution with few casualties.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:09 AM

CarolC: I, for one, will welcome hearing your many alternatives.

Troll: I agree. You just beat me to making the reply.

I think one of the problems we have (you and I)discussing this with our fellow mudcatters is, they don't accept that the folks the U.S. is dealing with are not the kind of enemy we are use to. Nazism, Facism, Communism; all of them had a common goal: to take over the world. But none of them, as horrible as their transgressions against society were, advocated using using humans to blow up other humans. The only example of this kind of barbaric behaviour that comes to mind is the Japanese in WWII, who sent thousands of young men to their death trying to sink ships in the Pacific.

The people the U. S. are dealing with now cannot simply be asked to apologize and be good from now on. Over seven thousand of your fellow Americans were killed in an act of war on September 11th. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that we are not dealing with rational folks here?

DougR