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Subject: ABC News rumor? From: Kim C Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:18 AM I heard on a local talk radio show yesterday that ABC News will no longer allow on-air personalities to wear American flags. I have not been able to verify this in the news today and I am curious if anyone else has heard this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: GUEST,merle Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:29 AM I would think that it would only be the case if they were anxious to see their ratings drop lower than a public access cable channel. I am sure that some of the Taliban would tune in if they had satellite. But then again, someone told me that anyone caught with cable over there gets their face cut off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Mrrzy Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:29 AM Did you hear why not? I haven't heard but will look... |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: jeffp Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:33 AM From an article in yesterday's Washington Post: Footnote: ABC has barred its journalists from wearing lapel flags such as the one sported by White House correspondent Terry Moran.
"Especially in a time of national crisis, the most patriotic thing journalists can do is to remain as objective as possible," says spokesman Jeffrey Schneider. "That does not mean journalists are not patriots. All of us are at a time like this. But we cannot signal how we feel about a cause, even a justified and just cause, through some sort of outward symbol." |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Mrrzy Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:38 AM Bully for the integrity of the reporters! |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Larry124 Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:39 AM Yeah, everyone knows what bad journalists them WWII fellers were. The press listens to and represents no one but itself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Kim C Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:39 AM Thanks jeffp. Having worked in the newspaper business I understand the point about being objective, but I'm not entirely sure it flies here. Wearing an American flag pin in America isn't quite the same as, say, a sportscaster wearing a Bears jersey, at least I don't think so. Others' mileage may vary. Oh boy. Another thing to make my head hurt. I think I am just going to forget about it and go on about my day. I don't watch much ABC anyhow - most of my fave shows are on Fox or NBC. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: GUEST,merle Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:49 AM Sorry about being a wiseass, I just did not want to believe that it is true. It is un-friggin-believable. That ranks right up there with the radio stations that are allegedly (although now it is more believable) discouraging their DJs from playing songs about peace. I certainly hope that the station's ratings reflects this nonesense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Uncle Jaque Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:49 AM For the generally reliable "scoop" on this and other goings-on sans the "PC" spin, revision, and censorship, tune in on radio or website:
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/ between 1200 and 1500 hrs. EST. If you are one of the legion of his detractors running over with hatred, contempt, and venom for "Rush" without ever having listened to him for more than 10 minutes (if at all), please feel free to get real. OK, "Honest with yourself and others" will suffice. The fruits of the recent 8-year plus social experiment of "Political Correctness", IMHO, having developed to over-ripe maturity, just started shaking down out of the tree on the Morning of the 11th, along with other assorted debris, rubble and body parts. For those who still don't get it; "Remedial Reality 101" is now in session. Won't you join US? BTW, does anybody have confirmation of the video capture of a certain Jr. Senator-In-Chief from NY standing silent while the rest of the Congress sang "God Bless America" on the Capitol steps shortly after the attack? Or the same Senator silent again during a subsequent "Pledge of Allegiance" at a Congressional function, hand nowhere near her "heart"? I like to confirm these "rumors" before I start putting them out, don't you know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Jim Dixon Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:53 AM I hate to see people play a more-patriotic-than-thou game over such trivia. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Uncle Jaque Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:01 PM Aggreed, Jim. Like SUVCW Bro who works in a local Hardware store recently sold out of flags for a few days observed: "If all these people were such dammned Patriots, then why didn't they have any American Flags before Tuesday (the 11th)?" And even old hot-hearted Veteran Uncle J. occasionally inserts in between gratuitous public singings of "Battle Cry of Freedom" or "Battle Hymn" things like "No Man's Land" (Bogle) or "Vacant Chair", just to keep things in perspective a bit. I'm also working on developing the "lip" for the old bugle. Methinks there will be need for the occasional "Taps" in the not so distant future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Ebbie Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:45 PM jaque, I can't telll you on how many occasions I've been in a group that was singing, too deeply moved to get past the lump in my throat. Are we now going to watch each other to see what the next guy is or is not doing? For God's sake. When you were a kid, did you ever peek during a prayer to see if anyone had their eyes open? What did it say about yourself? Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: kendall Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:00 PM Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Rush Limbaugh? that arsehole still around? Remember when he was pissing and moaning about Hillery flying around at government expense? Where was he when Barbara Bush was flying around promoting a book that was written by her dog? Uncle J. my point is, no one is perfect. NO ONE. Besides, what has Hillery got to do with this? You gonna blame her for this too? |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Bill D Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:05 PM Reuters news agency is refusing to use the words 'terrorists' and 'terrorism' to decribe the events. The spokesman said that 'attacks' is just as clear and more neutral...the PBS lady interviewing him was trying to bait him with leading questions, but he just stated that he believed that a news company should simply report events and not try to color them. It makes a certain amount of sense. I'd like to see a bit more 'plain' reporting done. We can draw our own conclusions about the import. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: catspaw49 Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:12 PM Now, now, Kendall.........I'm surprised you don't check in with ol'Rush! You know he's the epitome of plain, unvarnished and unbiased reporting. 'Scuse me....Now I have to go wash my keyboard out with soap. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: LoopySanchez Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:16 PM No need to blame Hillary...Listening to her monotone, emotionless voice, or her lack of applause during Bush's speech speaks volumes more for her than any right-winger could. No, instead we might want to take a peek at Former VP Gore's role in this tragedy... Now, hear me out before we start screaming that I'm nit-picking at politicians during a time of tragedy: This article is taken from the Neal Boortz Show's website. Boortz is a Libertarian talk show host who attacks spineless Democrats and Republicans with equal fervor.
WHAT WAS AL GORE'S ROLE?
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:27 PM ABC not wearing the American flag. ABC has the right to decide what people wear whenthey are on air. I'm not sure the choice was wise. Rush Limbaugh is paid to be an Ass and he earns every cent. I think terrorism is the most accurate word. I sure felt terror. I don't see how attack is more neutral. Is reuters trying to keep open the possibility that terror was not the intent? Being a close but neutral observer of US politics. (A Canadian lliving in Georgia, who doen't give a hoot who wins but id fascinated by the process, I am sick and tired of all the Hillary- Bashing. The Repubicans give her five time the attention that the Democrats do. P.T. Barnum said there is no such thing as bad publicity. Uncle Jaque if Hillary ever gets to be president, she'll have people like you to thank for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: GUEST,Doc Rock Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:32 PM I dunno about this hyper-objective reporting in the news. I guess that they would not have been able to refer directly to the Allied victory in World War Two since one person's victory is another person's defeat. So, to retain journalistic objectivity and balance, the headlines would read: ALLIED FACILITATED CLOSURE OF THE EVENT!!! Following that logic, why does ABC use only American reporters. Shouldn't we have a few members of the Taliban or Bin Laden's network working at ABC as well, so as to provide a balanced, objective viewpoint. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: GUEST,Melani Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:33 PM Gee, what a surprise! Democtratic politicians are just as bad as any other kind of politician! I'm shocked! Re: Objective news reporting--it's standard for reporters to do their best to appear neutral in order to cover the news. As a student reporter, I absentmindedly went to cover a speech by Curtis Lemay while wearing a "McCarthy for President" button. As a result, I was hit over the head with a picket sign by a Lemay supporter when I tried to interview her. I have been told may times by friends that it is impossible to be totally objective, and of course that's true, but a good reporter is supposed to simply gather facts and leave it to the editorialists to draw conclusions. It's easier to gather facts if you don't go around advertising your own views, as my experience taught me. While I doubt many viewers would be offended by an American flag lapel pin, it really is just a standard procedure for the networks to object. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Uncle Jaque Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:40 PM Granted, no one currently incarnate on this planet is likely to be "perfect", but there are some folks I would rather have in charge of things (including the power of life or death, suffering or prosperity etc.) to which our neighbors, families, and selves are subject to than others. I know for certain that I am far from anyone's standard of "perfect", and accept the contention that even our current President and Staff fall short of that ideal. Because Hillary and BinLadden may or may not be "less perfect" than any of the aforementioned examples, that is no reason IMHO to excuse them of behaviors which they can be reasonably established to have committed... or to vote for them. I didn't. As to the "Ice Queen" (as White House Staff apparantly knew her during her reign)and her entourage (those who are still alive, that is) having something to do with this; I - and oodles of others - have had our suspicions for some time now, and sense that evidence will be soon forthcoming which she may not be able to buy off. Perhaps that's why she has been looking a little nervous lately. Stay tuned. Good point, "Loopy"; I'd forgotten about that one! BTW, anyone seen the "Proffessor" AlGore around lately?
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Kim C Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:42 PM I agree with Jack - the employer can tell the employee how to dress, within reason - but I don't know if it's wise either, just at this particular time. While their reasons may be valid, it's just not going to wash with an awful lot of people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Bill D Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:48 PM Jack...Reuters point was that THEY shouldn't be deciding what 'loaded' word was best...terrorism IS a value judgement, and 'attack' is more descriptive. Bush may call it what he feels like, and so may you...Reuters has simply opted to not label....and as I say, I have a certain amount of sympathy with that, even though *I* feel it was certainly terrorism....and worse....it was hate and ignorance and mis-guided religious zealotry. Should news agencies adopt my rhetoric? |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: GUEST,PeteBoom (at work) Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:49 PM My one concern with the regularity of the American flag in the news since 11 September is it being incorporated into "headline graphics" EVERYWHERE - including the network logos at the bottom of the screen. If the newly discovered patriotism is simply an expression of support for the victims, that is one thing - however, I question the use of national colours in logos, etc., with the same dim view as I had for the Conservative party in the UK using the Union Flag as a political symbol - "What, you're MORE British than Labour?" The bigger issue, however, will be the media's willingness and/or ability to critically report FACTS, not the "rally 'round the flag, boys" version we've been getting, but FACTS. What is the whole story? How many saw in the US media ANYTHING about protests of military action? There were some, but who heard about them? People's responses to phrases like 'war on terrorism' will vary from "are we really at war?" to "how can you win?" For the answer to how you beat terrorists, look to my post in the initial "AMERICAN ATTACKS" thread - the one about "damn the consequences." Or, if you want a historical model - look at the French in Algeria. I wonder how many of the same people screaming for revenge will still be screaming for blood when it is US, UK, French and other 18-25 year olds who happen to be in uniforms that are in bodybags. THEN I wonder how many American flags will still be seen in logos everywhere you look. If they're gone, ask why - then ask why were they there in the first place except for a bit of demogogery.... (no I can't spell at all). Hoping I'm wrong, but wouldn't bet on it... Pete |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: GUEST,Doc Rock Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:51 PM I remain unconvinced of the wisdom of ABC's move. A dress code is one thing, however, limiting symbols that someone can wear would seem a bit of an infringement. Of course, I realize that wearing a Swastika would be problematic, but we are talking about the national emblem. Idealism aside, not letting Americans who are reporting in America wear the symbol of the U.S. just seems silly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:52 PM Re: Al Gore, Why talk of him? He is gone for a while. There is no government position for second place in this country. If it was Canada, you would have Gore criticising Bush's every move as "leader of the oposition". Re Hillary: Ignore her and she will fade away..really... just try it... please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:58 PM I've watched news of the World Trade Center attacks on ABC and CBS, and a little bit on NBC. Canadian-born Peter Jennings has anchored the ABC coverage, and I think he's been far better than NBC's Brokaw and CBS's melodramatic Dan Rather. In a situation like this, I think it's important to let the story tell itself, and not try to enhance it with emotion-stirring words and symbols. ABC has done this well. If I were from another country, which newscaster would I be more likely to believe - a Canadian who tells the story with objectivity, or a flag-wearing American super-patriot? I'm afraid that newcasters who wear flags run the risk of having their broadcasts seem like American propaganda instead of objective reporting. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News From: Uncle Jaque Date: 25 Sep 01 - 02:36 PM "Re: Al Gore, ... There is no government position for second place in this country. If it was Canada, you would have Gore criticising Bush's every move as "leader of the oposition"." Sort of like Dick Gephardt and Tom Daschle were doing right up 'till Sept. 10th, you mean? Yes, I think we get the picture now. Thanks. "Re Hillary: Ignore her and she will fade away.." Sheesh, Jack; I wish you were right about that! "really... just try it... please." Sorry, Mate; I really wish I could. But on the basis of reputable intelligence reports (which you are not apt to hear about on ABC, CBS or NBC) we dare not. The Klintons may be relatively "out" of obvious power, but they are by no means "down", and I have little reason to doubt that they passionately covet a return to power by whatever means it takes. It would not behoove a Conservative, or anyone else for that matter, to underestimate this team. And a team it is; I think that they are much more cohesive, connected and coordinated than we are led to beleive.
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 25 Sep 01 - 02:38 PM Gosh Uncle Jaque, you are starting to sound like Fox Muldar. Be careful not to reveal your sources. What I am saying is that by constantly harping on her you and others like you are giving her far much more attention and publicity and attention than she merits. Again, you are helping her to the presidency |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Charley Noble Date: 25 Sep 01 - 03:03 PM Uncle Jaque - The ball,if we may call it that, is in the Bush court, or the Bush league, or whatever. I'm not going to criticize the Bush folks for their lack of adequate preparation for these terrorists acts, all of our agencies responsible for this were blindsided and the same thing would have happened if the terrorists acts had taken place a year ago under the Clintin administration. I am interested in what particular politicians are sayig and doing now, and I know you are too. But don't waste your energy on old grudges or cheap shots, i.e., Hilary et al, unless they actually say or do something significant. I think the next time we're singing together, I'm gonna dig up my most subversive song and invite you to sing along on the chorus.;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: GUEST Date: 25 Sep 01 - 03:06 PM What's the difference between Rush Limbaugh and Uncle Jaque? Uncle Jaque isn't paid to be an asshole- he's happy to be one gratis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: GUEST,Doc Rock Date: 25 Sep 01 - 03:23 PM Joe, Your point about the newscasters doesn't really make a whole lot of sense (I do not mean this as a personal insult) since they (including Jennings) have already clearly indicated where their priorities/sympathies/thoughts lay through their words and demonstrations of emotion over the last two weeks. I haven't seen/heard pure objectivity and simple recitation of the facts thus far, so trying to stop it now in this manner is, to repeat, silly. And considering that Jennings is living and working in the United States, and most people do not even know that he is Canadian, I doubt that neutrality is much of an issue on his part. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 25 Sep 01 - 03:49 PM Joe, I'm a Canadian in the US from my point of view. I did find Dan Rather to be melodramatic. I found fox's coverage to be provocative and hawkish. I found Both Jennings and Brokaw to be about as neutral and professional as one could be under the circumstances. It was quite an emotionally charged event. Don't they all work in New York. It must have been very difficult to keep composed watching the damage unfold on the other side of that small island. Vis-a-vis the original topic, The Flags probably should come off the lapels now. The period of mourning has been declared to be over. Our leaders have told us to go on with our lives and return the flags on buildings to full mast. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: GUEST,Doc Rock Date: 25 Sep 01 - 03:58 PM You are right that some did the best that they could to be professional and objective under the circumstances. However, even those that did their best were still unable to conceal where their sympathies lay. So the ideal of so-called objectivity is a moot point. If you don't want to wear a flag, that is your individual right/choice. Why not extend the same courtesy to them and let them choose for themselves rather than invoke what many view as censorship. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Steve in Idaho Date: 25 Sep 01 - 04:10 PM Rush Limbaugh, Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell were sitting around talking one day - Dang never could tell that joke with a straight face Butt - the punch line was . . . . Naw - too easy Peace - Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Sep 01 - 04:12 PM Not silly at all, Doc Rock. I suppose Jennings is a U.S. citizen, but you can tell he's from Canada the moment he says "out." Since it's subtly evident that he wasn't born in the U.S., it can give an air of objectivity. People assume that U.S newscasters are loyal, and that they're concerned about the situation - they don't have to go out of their way to prove their loyalty and concern by wearing flags and using emotion-charged words. In this situation, the story has all the power it needs, and flags and melodrama and overemphasis can tend to cheapen and sensationalize a story that should be treated with dignity. I'm not saying that the wearing of a flag pin is overstatement or propaganda, but I can certainly see why a network might want to prohibit flag pins in order to present an image that seems more objective. Patriotism is a wonderful thing - but if we seek to enlist the support of the world in this situation, we may be wise to understate our U.S. patriotism and emphasize that we are citizens of the world. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: GUEST,Doc Rock Date: 25 Sep 01 - 04:28 PM The only problem with your comments about Jennings is that people from Minnesota and other areas of the upper midwest pronounce "out" in a similar fashion. Furthermore, people who do not speak English as a mother tongue, and even English speakers in the British Isles, do not necessarily recognize subtle regional dialects. So the difference that you noted is not much of an issue outside of the U.S. Your other points are well taken, but to repeat, the issue of objectivity is now a moot point. And for every person who views wearing a flag as melodramatic, there are many more who think otherwise, at least that is my impression based on every public event that i have seen recently. So, let's let them choose, it is far better to err on the side of protecting expression. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Kim C Date: 25 Sep 01 - 04:34 PM I won't disagree with you Joe - however it is going to (and already has) upset a lot of people. Not everyone understands or cares how the news business works, all they know is "that mean old AMERICAN Broadcast Company told their employees not to wear AMERICAN flags anymore." If they had done it quietly and without fanfare, probably no one would even notice. But it's got into the news now, and it makes them not look very good to a lot of phoaks. The other side of the coin is... when I worked at the newspaper, the official policy was that advertising was not supposed to dictate the content of the paper. But somehow, that got bent once in awhile for advertisers who spent a lot of money. And I imagine that if some of ABC's advertisers start crying, you may see the policy change. Reporting is not always objective, and sometimes is downright biased. The last few weeks I've been ever so glad I'm not a news reporter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 25 Sep 01 - 04:45 PM I can tell from his accent Jennings is not from Minnesota. It doesn't make him seem more objective to me. But knowing that he is Canadian probably does. My father told me that he was the only major newscaster to mention Canada's contributions during the height of the crises. Was that because he was biased or because he had information and a perspective that the others do not have? I do not believe that a reporter has the right to wear what he wants. They are part of a team and the airtime and the images broadcast belong to his employers who have every right to decide how he should present himself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: DougR Date: 25 Sep 01 - 04:52 PM Joe: I live on the world. I'm a citizen of the United States. I pay no world taxes, and as far as I know, there is no world government that supercedes the U. S. government or any other country ON earth. Loopy: What the hey, it cost a lot of money to run a political campaign, doesn't it? ABC: Wouldn't want to be Politically Incorrect, would we? I watch the Fox News Channel. The folks there wear their lapel flags proudly. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: katlaughing Date: 25 Sep 01 - 05:12 PM For what it is worth, the New York Times now has a blacklist of freelance writers. This is from the National Writer's Union which won a landmark case this year, in the Supreme Court, for the rights of all freelancers and their works: "I thought The New York Times could not stoop lower. First, they stole your work. Then, they tried to scare and intimidate writers by demanding that they sign away rights they we all won in the U.S. Supreme Court. "But, the Times has now gone even further: it has created a blacklist. Several days ago, I was provided an internal New York Times memo by a confidential source (the memo is pasted below). In the memo circulated throughout the top echelons of the newspaper, top Times editor, Michaela Williams, writes that "our lawyers recommend that the newspaper not engage any of the below named plaintiffs to write for the newspaper." The memo then lists all the original 11 plaintiffs in Tasini v. The New York Times. "It is a sad day when the paper of record resorts to the kinds of tactics that have left deep scars on the soul of this country. "Here is what we must do RIGHT AWAY: 1. Send an e-mail to Michaela Williams at: mickey@nytimes.com Express your outrage at The Times' action. Ask her to justify such actions that remind us of the discredited and immoral blacklists of the 1950s. Make the point that blacklists are contrary to freedom of expression--the ideal that all newspapers must live by. "2. Call the office of Arthur Sulzberger at 212-556-3588. Convey the same message by phone that you sent via e-mail to Williams. "3. Circulate this alert to other writers, websites and listservs. Ask your colleagues to take action also. ------------------------------------- Memo from The Times
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:07:03 -0400 Sept. 18, 2001 Folks: I'm sending this list around again, just in case it didn't reach you earlier. Please see that relevant assigning editors and backfield editors and clerks get copies. Our lawyers recommend that the newspaper not engage any of the below named plaintiffs to write for the newspaper. These are the original named plaintiffs in the Tasini lawsuit:
Jonathan Tasini Named plaintiffs in a class action suit filed by the Authors Guild against The Times:
Derek Bell Thanks, Michaela
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 25 Sep 01 - 05:13 PM From DougR... Joe: I live on the world. I'm a citizen of the United States. I pay no world taxes, and as far as I know, there is no world government that supercedes the U. S. government or any other country ON earth. Does this keep you from wanting to show respect you your allies and acting like a team? How sad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Kim C Date: 25 Sep 01 - 05:35 PM Let's not fight about it, y'all, I just wanted to know if the rumor was true or not. Now that we know it is, everyone is welcome to make of it what they will. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Donuel Date: 25 Sep 01 - 05:45 PM The wisdom of doing this is to offer some kind of protection for journalists that find themselves in a war zone. If they are identified as being with a flag waving network rather than an objective news service , their very lives could be in further danger as well as not be trusted with reports. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Gareth Date: 25 Sep 01 - 07:00 PM Hmmm !! Isn't Fox owned by Murdoch of News International fame. Where facts are bendable to the commercial interest of Murdoch ??? Gareth |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: DougR Date: 25 Sep 01 - 09:07 PM Jack the Sailor: how in the world did you gather from my statement that I don't value and respect our allies? That, in my opinion, is the dumbest question posed to me in ages! Perhaps, for you, Jack the Sailor, I will try to clarify my statement. 1. I am an American. 2. I have nothing in my possession that would prove that I am a citizen of the world. 3. I pay no taxes to the world. 4. I abide by the laws of the United States, not laws passed by the ...what? There is no world congress, no world president, no world anything. If Joe prefers to think of himself as a citizen of the world, that's his right. I have no problem with it. What the hell is your problem? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Sep 01 - 09:23 PM Doug, if we want to ask the world for help, we must convey the idea that we want to make the world safe from terrorism. We can't be safe just by making America safe - it has to be a world effort. To do that, I think we need to pay to attention to our obligations to each other as fellow members of a world community - and we need to de-emphasize the interests of individual nations. While there may be no world government, I believe our interdependence as a world community is far more important than the interests of any one nation - even if that nation happens to be the United States. Maybe it's time for us to stop waving our American flag and brandishing our American guns and boasting about our American power and wealth. Maybe it's time for us to realize that we must depend on the rest of the world, just as they must depend on us. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: DougR Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:23 PM Joe, my friend. I have tremendous respect for you, so please don't take this wrong. I agree with much that you wrote. I do not agree, however, that ANY country should surrender it's sovereignty to a world government. There is nothing wrong, in my opinion, with a citizen to take great pride in his/her country ...and I don't just mean MY country. McGrath, I'm sure, is proud to be a citizen of Great Britain. Alison probably is proud to be an Australian, Wolfgang I believe is a proud German, and on and on. One can be a Pacifist and still take great pride in his/her country, I believe. They are not giving anything up by professing to love their country. Every country, I'm sure, makes mistakes. You rarely read or hear about any, though, other than those perceived to be mistakes made by the United States. Why is that? And why do so many Americans take pride in criticizing their country for it's mistakes, rather than acknowledging the good things that it does? I pose that question not only to you, but to others who might read this post. I'm proud to be an American, and I also know that my being so is only an accident of birth. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:59 PM DougR What the hell is the matter with me is that you saw the phrase Citizen of the world and jumped to conclusions completely out of the previous scope of this discussion. If you calmly reread you will find that... Joe said Patriotism is a wonderful thing - but if we seek to enlist the support of the world in this situation, we may be wise to understate our U.S. patriotism and emphasize that we are citizens of the world. And you completely and foolishly overreacted by saying this. From DougR... Joe: I live on the world. I'm a citizen of the United States. I pay no world taxes, and as far as I know, there is no world government that supercedes the U. S. government or any other country ON earth. You mentioned World government. What ever put that into your head I'll never know. What it means to be a citizen of the world is that we are all interdependant with rights and obligations to one another. That sometimes you have to look at the big picture. Up until 1945 the USA had a habit of ignoring problems on the other side of the world until those problems spread to her shores. and millions of lives were lost. Thank God she doesn't do that any more. In the battle against terrorism Joe is suggesting the America can use all of the help she can get. Saying "Lets do it together" rather than constant public flag waving may be a better stategy to elicit cooperation. Many others are proud of their countries many are patriotic. But when people from other countries see people as fanatical, sensitive and paranoid about it as many Americans appear to be it scares them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: ddw Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:56 PM The view of journalism from this corner (newsroom of a mid-sized Canadian daily) is that ABC was right for a number of reasons — not the least of which is the one mentioned above, that it could cramp a reporter's ability to gather news later if he/she is seen as being biased. There's an old saying in legal circles: Justice must not only be done, but must be seen to be done. A very similar thing applies in jounalism: Reporting must not only be fair (unbiased), but must be seen to be fair. You can't really appear to be unbiased if you're covering an international story while covered in the symbols of one of the participants, even if those are the symbols of the target audience. There is also the company's right to dictate what it will and will not allow on-air, in both dress and editorial content. I would suspect they also frown on a reporter wearing a Star of David, a crucifix, or any of a long list of symbols. So?!! As for the NY Times having a blacklist of writers it won't run.... Your point is? Almost every paper has certain would-be contributors whose copy they won't run on anything except in letters to the editor. Freelancers just offer their work for sale, but no one has any obligation to buy it. So what the hell was the basis of the lawsuit in the first place? Harassment? I'd blacklist any idiot who filed such a frivilous suit, too. With judgment like that, I certainly wouldn't trust their copy. Just MHO.... david
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Peg Date: 26 Sep 01 - 12:35 AM I think it is interesting to hear ABC is calling for this measure; since they nearly cancelled Bill Maher's show "Politically Incorrect" after some comments he made were perceived as being somehow disrespectful to the military, unpatriotic and unsympathetic to the tragedy (they were none of these things). He apologized if his remarks were misinterpreted, after a number of sponsors pulled their ads from the show.
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: DougR Date: 26 Sep 01 - 12:47 AM Jack the Sailor: I assume your printing your message in bold is an indication that you are pissed. Sorry about that, but that's your problem, not mine. I haven't noted Joe refuting my interpretation of what he said, and Joe is a big boy. He can take care of himself without any help from anybody I'm sure. If Joe feels I mis-interpretated his remarks, and says so, I will apologize to HIM on the forum. DougR
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Sep 01 - 01:59 AM Well, now, Doug - I have a lot of respect for you, too -- but don't go thinking that I agree with you. I think that Americans are sadly unaware of the rest of the world - and we would be far better off if we could develop an idea of belonging to a world community. I am a resident of Sacramento, but more importantly a Californian, and more importantly an American, and most importantly a citizen of an interdependent world. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: O'Boyle Date: 26 Sep 01 - 03:27 AM Ernie Pyle is spinning in his grave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: jeffp Date: 26 Sep 01 - 09:24 AM ddw, the lawsuit in question was not about harassment, it was about the New York Times engaging in copyright violations by republishing the work of freelancers in another medium (the Internet) without permission of the authors. This lawsuit was won by the plaintiffs and the writer's union. jeffp |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: GUEST,Greg F. Date: 26 Sep 01 - 09:36 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: GUEST,Greg F. Date: 26 Sep 01 - 09:41 AM Joe, watch out for that Trilateral Commission & all the other bogey-men of 'one world government'.Gonna Gitcha!(Talk about paranoid fanatics- guess we've got a few home grown-or should I say 'Homeland'?- ones as well.) Best, Greg [sorry about the blank post- fingers not awake] |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: GUEST,Doc Rock Date: 26 Sep 01 - 02:41 PM Donuel's statement about not wearing a particular emblem (i.e. a flag) in a danger zone is about the only thing that I can agree with in terms of possible prohibitions on wearing flags by American journalists. The notion of an American reporter being unbiased under circumstances like this is simply realistic. If you want to adopt this fiction, you will have to stop listening and watching newscasts since their words and facial expressions often say almost as much as their emblems. I have also noticed that the same people who scream bloody murder about measures (i.e. anything linked to strengthening security) that MIGHT POSSIBLY infringe on individual rights seem to take the direct opposite attitude toward ABC's actions. Kinda curious but maybe its just my comprehensive attitude toward the 1st amendment, which, the last time that I checked, did extend into the workplace. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Tiger Date: 26 Sep 01 - 05:58 PM That's the same junior Senator who was rolling her eyes and clapping listlessly during the Bush speech. Even senior Sen. Schumer, hardly a hero in my eyes, seemed supportive and smiling throughout - properly respectful. Maybe HE wished he was somewhere else, too, but you'd never know it. At least learn the act, Hillary! |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: ddw Date: 26 Sep 01 - 06:11 PM Jeffp — I stand corrected, but it still seems a frivilous lawsuit to me if the "publication" was on the NYT's Web site. Once the paper has paid for publication rights, I don't see now they can then place limits on the rights. Obviously a court disagreed with me. Maybe I should revisit a situation I had about 28 years ago when a fundamentalist preacher took a series of articles I had written about him, edited out all the unsavory parts and put them (along with a couple of pictures) together in a book. I checked into suing him and was told that once something appears in a newspaper (unless it is specifically copywrited), it is in the public domain. go figure. But I still say the paper has a right to blacklist any writer it wants, even if it's for wearing the wrong colored socks. There is nothing in the freedom of speech concept that says a writer has a right to publish anything in any particular place. The corollary of freedom of speech (read freedom to speak) is freedom to not speak. I think the court decision, on its face, at least, sucks. david |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 26 Sep 01 - 06:51 PM I don't have any problems DougR I thought we were all having a discussion. And all opinions I expressed were my own. I have full confidence in Joes ability to hold his own in an argument. I was however, surprised and dissappointed in your reaction to what he said. Please don't let me stop you from having a private conversation with him. I would suggest however that this is not the place to do so. If you would like to continue the group discussion, please tell me why when Joe said this.. Patriotism is a wonderful thing - but if we seek to enlist the support of the world in this situation, we may be wise to understate our U.S. patriotism and emphasize that we are citizens of the world. you said this... From DougR... Joe: I live on the world. I'm a citizen of the United States. I pay no world taxes, and as far as I know, there is no world government that supercedes the U. S. government or any other country ON earth. I would like for you to explain your comment in the context of what Joe said. I thought your statement was related to Joes, hence my reaction. If I was wrong, I would like to know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: InOBU Date: 26 Sep 01 - 07:24 PM Isn't there something IMPORTANT to worry about? here in downtown New York, you can't get ABC unless you have cable and I am too piss poor to afford cable... but, then again, I don't believe I get Rush on anything I can watch, thank God for small gifts, well, great big gifts... Saw the last of the tower come down, was like a wake for a friend you only liked after he died. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: DougR Date: 26 Sep 01 - 07:28 PM Well, Jack, I think Joe clarified his position a few posts up, and if I offended him, I do apologize. If you and Joe want to consider yourselves citizens of the world, fine by me! I don't for a moment advocate the U.S. going it alone, and the help of other countries is vital to the success of the campaign. While I welcome the support of other nations of the world, I still consider myself an American. I am also a citizen of Arizona, as Joe claims citizenship of California of course. I dont' know how I can make my position more clear. You may not agree with my POV, but that's your priviledge. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Sep 01 - 07:42 PM Well, actually, I'm a Wisconsinite who has been exiled to California for the last 30 years. Go, Packers!!! -Joe Offer, Citizen of the World- |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Melani Date: 27 Sep 01 - 12:32 AM Joe, I'm an Illinoisian (?) who ESCAPED to California. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ABC News rumor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 27 Sep 01 - 01:15 AM Larry, there are lots of more important things. Doug, I actually have no idea what your point of view is. Especially concerning the issues brought up in this thread. You are seeing things here that I don't. But thats OK. See you around. |