Origins of O'Carolan tune

Subject: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 10:29 AM

I was reading a book the other day which made frequent references to a tune the author called "Seabag Seymore". after a bit it dawned on me that he really meant "Si Beag an Si Mhor" by O'Carolan. :D

Now I know that O'Carolan based it on an Irish legend about a battle between two groups of elves but I can't find out anything else about this legend. (Tried both Google and Yahoo). Does anyone have a reference or suggest a book where I could find out more?

waiting in suspense ( or suspenders if you prefer) AWM

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: IanC
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 10:34 AM

AWM

Probably best to look at Lesley's site for information on this one.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 10:59 AM

There's some question about whether Carolan actually wrote the tune to Si Beag an Si Mhor, or whether he wrote only the words and adapted a tune, possibly adding the "B" part.

The tune also exists as The Pretty Cuckoo (MIDI) or here as a GIF of the dots.

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: Gypsy
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 11:06 AM

Try "BARD" by Morgan Llywelyn. She does great retelling of old stories.

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 11:10 AM

Further details, including a Gaelic text published by the Irish Text Society, can be seen at Andrew Kuntz's  The Fiddler's Companion:

SI BHEAG, SI MHOR

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 12:33 PM

Thank you all,

Now deep in the annals of Finn McCuill and the Fianna

Many thanks AWM

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 01:57 PM

The song is named after the two hills that do exist. Carolan knew of the fairy legend, but was not writing specifically about that. It was also his first "hit" - a tune that he wrote (or more accurately borrowed from a traditional tune) after one of his patron's suggested he might make a better living writing tunes instead of simply playing them.

I gathered this information from Art Edelstein's new book on Carolan. Art will be my guest on Sunday October 21st on WFDU-FM's THE SUNDAY SESSION, 9am eastern time - you can listen in at www.wfdu.fm. I will also try to make the show available here on Mudcat in the radio section with other episodes of the series.

Ron Olesko

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 06:25 PM

I heard that the interpretation was "Little Hill Big, Hill" or "Little Brother, Big Brother" and the distinction was not at all clear which it was from the title., I'm sure Gaelic scholars can explain the confusion or ambiguity. But I assume that colloquialisms &/or familiarities of speech come into play.
cf "me duck" when addressing a friend in Northamptonshire. It's just an endearment, and not at all avian or posture.

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 04 Oct 01 - 02:36 AM

G'day,

I always found it puzzling that the one tune "every" folk musician knew was by Turlough Carolan ... is not among the Carolan tunes in O'Neill's.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: mikesamwild
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 10:53 AM

I heard it meant 'more or less' could be a joke ' have you learned that tune ' 'More or less?' Typical musicians gag.

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 11:17 AM

After reading Bob Bolton's observation of ten years ago, I had to look at my copy of O'Neill's. It's true! Si beag si mor is not there.

(Maybe that's why nobody can ever agree on how to spell it.)

Don't expect me to start announcing as much. I live in a town that has one of the biggest St Patrick's Day parades in the country. I'm not about to risk being burned at the stake over this.

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 12:35 PM

I just did a Googlewhack!

I was wondering what the book was that referred to "Seabag Seymore" so I Googled and this thread was the only hit.

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 12:51 PM

O'Neill's is not a reliable source of Carolan tunes, and definitely not comprehensive. For that you need to consult Donal O'Sullivan's Carolan - The Life, Times and Music of an Irish Harper. Google-wise if you're using the English spelling of this title you'll do better to write it as "Shebeg Shemore" or "Sheebeg Sheemore" which approximates the Irish pronunciation.

Don't know if the Minstrel is still Wandering around though, as he made the query almost 10 years ago!

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 12:53 PM

Congratulations - googlewhacks are a threatened species these days. I used to use them as an exercise for students once....

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 12:57 PM

It means "the great hill" and "the small hill" and the legend concerns a rivalry between the fairies that lived on each of them. It began with a small insult, which was returned by a slightly larger insult, and the feud escalated until the two sides would have annihilated each other. It was only when a third enemy confronted both of them that they united to battle the new foe in common.

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 12:59 PM

I got the great and little backwards: brain fail...

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 01:57 PM

One can remember which is which by thinking of the filibeg = the small fold = the kilt; and Glen Mohr, local name for the Great Glen.

I have always thought this, along with The Battle Of The Somme, among the most beautiful tunes ever composed.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 02:07 PM

Slight drift: in the ballad of Lang Johnny More, Child #251, More is not the eponymous hero's surname as might at first appear, but a descriptive addition, indicating that he is big {'Long Big Johnny'} ~~ indeed, one of a family of giants.

Another familiar use of the suffix is the great Highland sword, the claymore.

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 04:50 PM

I don't care whether Carolan wrote it or not, although I'm willing to believe he did. There is something special about his music. As my husband says, "It makes you feel like you are walking out-of-doors."

We will never know for sure what he wrote and what he didn't. I added to this thread hoping that it would inspire somebody to find the piece and play it.

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 07:01 PM

Wasn't getting at you - simply trying to clarify the sources for the sake of historical accuracy. And it's fair to mention that whether or not something appears in O'Neill is not a reliable guide to whether Carolan wrote it or not - for anyone who is interested in knowing (though Capt. O'Neill has more hits than misses, and never pretended to be comprehensive).

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: mikesamwild
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 09:32 AM

I've asked Bonnie what the Irish words to the tune Hewlett mean in English . they are in Irish in O'Sullivan as 'a lively drinking song' and he was a convivial chap!
Any help gratefully received, and does anyone know a translation facility on the web or is it an Iphone app, (I don't have iphone )

Subject: RE: Origins of O'Carolan tune
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 10:41 AM

Hi, Bonnie. All is copasetic.