Attacks begin

Subject: Attacks begin
From: Banjer
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 12:39 PM

According to breaking news the air strikes on Afghani targets have started.

God Bless America

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 12:47 PM

....& God help us all!

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:02 PM

....I'm just waiting for an Official Statement from the British Government, cos Bush's speech implies that we (in the form of the R.A.F. of course) are also involved in this attack.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:10 PM

May each person's god or not bless all involved. This is sad.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:43 PM

Yes it is very sad, we've reached the point of no return. There can be no turning back. Though I dislike the idea of more people being killed and wounded, there is no other way forward now and it can't stop until all terrorists believe that there is no future in the indiscriminate murder of non combatant innocent civilians. The Talibahn had enough time to consider, they knew that they were partly the instruments, by support, of the murder of 8000 people, let alone the other 100's that have died in the other bombings, Africa etc, the 1000's that have died by their hands etc. They should have kicked Bin Laden out for justice, but they didn't. I believe that whilst we may loose friends, and relatives, to stop this happening again, it is vital that the whole world condems and refuses to harbour these people.

Nobody in their right mind can not believe that America will go the distance.It is just not logical to think that you can kill 8000 people on the native soil of the biggest military power in the world and expect nothing to happen in return.

Good luck to all of us.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST,truckerdave
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:47 PM

Heh. Heh. I'd sure like to ask the Taliban and the fanatics hiding in caves like rats, "Uh, well what did you THINK was going to happen?"

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:49 PM

Blair is announcing Britain's involvement in what's happening in Afghanisan right now.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:50 PM

In my own humble opinion, if we had to hit in the short term rather than the long, we should have had another WEEK of diplomatic efforts all round, TRYING to firm up the Coalition, a week of dropping food to the population, to make it clear that only those who STAYED with the Taliban were targets, a week for the US Military to 'acclimatise' to the environment....

(thats ONE week to do all of those things...not consecutive weeks, of course....)

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:58 PM

"I miss my mummy very much and will only be happy when she is back home" - Yvonne Ridley's daughter Daisy

hope she got out in time

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:01 PM

From what Tony Blair is saying, France, Germany, Australia and Canada have committed forces as well as the UK. Apparently, Great Britain's subs were used in this attack to fire missles.

I don't know...if we had done nothing, the terrorism would have continued and more innocent people would have died. People would have continued living in constant fear of the next attack. More terrorist attacks will come, but we may eventully get rid of the biggest terrorist organization in the world. Innocents will die in this war, but it may stop a government's use of terrorism. I don't think there's a solution that won't get people killed. I hope we can hang onto the compassion that makes being human worth it.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Troll
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:04 PM

Paul, from our POV another week would have been good. But we don't have all the facts of the coallition and it's cohesivness or lack of same.
About all we can do at this point is pray, meditate, or get drunk, and hope that our respective leaders have made the right choices.
Because, right or wrong, we are now truly at war, and we can only dimly perceive the long-range repercussions.

troll

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: heric
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:12 PM

Canada? Canada?? How would you like to have war declared on you by Canada????

I always remember a recruiting ad from twenty years ago. Three frigates were plowing through rough seas, and the narrator said: "This is the Canadian Navy!" The standard joke going around (in Canada) was : "That's it?"

(If Canadian personnel are putting themselves in harm's way, then God Bless them, and I make no jokes about them.)

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:19 PM

Oh, Bl**dy H*ll, Guest, YES..... I feel quite guilty that I didnt consider that...

Troll, agreed

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:29 PM

Chilling video footage on CNN just now

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:32 PM

BTW, whatever happened to the "firm" US "policy" (from the dawn of the Hijack Age) that terrorists would not be given news coverage? That we would not allow these acts to result in more and wider platforms for the spread of whatever hateful message they claim as "honorable motivation"?

~S~

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:38 PM

"We" are at war? Well, somebody is at war all right, but I'm not. Not so far anyway.

Here's an observation on the concept of terrorizing terrorists...

"it can't stop until all terrorists believe that there is no future in the indiscriminate murder of non combatant innocent civilians."

Well, there's definitely no "future" in piloting an airplane into the side of a skyscraper...after all, the guys who did it are dead! So, how do you deter people who are willing to die? By killing them all before they get a chance to do it themselves? Hmmmm....

Now if you could just find them all...

This would require killing people not only in Afghanistan, but in a very long list of other places as well.

It's a pity that terrorists don't all have horns growing out of their heads, or some obvious feature like that, then you could kill them all quite easily, without needing expensive items like cruise missiles to do it.

You would think, evil as they are, that nature or God or something would have provided horns or something like that. It just isn't fair! Even Bin Laden looks like a sort of kindly soul...no mad glint in his eyes in those press photos. And Saddam...he looks like any other beefy middle-aged Iraqui guy with a mustache. Geez. :-)

Be that as it may, I am not surprised about these military strikes...it was virtually inevitable, and it will make a number of people in the West feel better, specially Americans.

Let's hope it doesn't last too long or broaden into a wider conflict.

- LH

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: 53
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:42 PM

it's about time that the free world show who's boss. we've been made fools of for long enough, and i'm very proud to be an american today and i will be tommorrow. god bless all our people who are involved and that their families. may also be comforted. bob.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST,newsboy
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:45 PM

CarolC as a Brit I find it amazing that you can tell me that Blair is addressing the nation. My TV is on and I have watched Bush address America but I am waiting for Blair to tell me what's happening.

I did post a day or so ago on your thread about Blair being a statesman and what we brits felt about him. I feel more and more that he barely scrapes through as the monkey to anyone else's organ grinder.

I feel that he re-acts rather than acts, that he is a follower rather than a leader.

At the moment he looks like a fool. If he is important in this conflict and Britain is an equal partner then he should have addressed us at the same time as Bush addressed America. Thatcher and Reagan could do it why can't he.

With you in your pain over 11 Sept.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:56 PM

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) - Osama bin Laden called Americans "sinners" in a tape carried by Al-Jazeera satellite channel Sunday and released after the strikes launched by the United States and Britain.

Bin Laden was shown dressed in fatigues and an Afghan headdress. It appeared to be daylight, which would mean that the tape was made before the nighttime attack in Afghanistan.

"America was hit by God in one of its softest spots," bin Laden said. "America is full of fear from its north to its south, from its west to its east. Thank God for that."

He continued: "Our nation has been tasting fear, hatred and injustices for years."

"Millions of innocent children are being killed in Iraq and in Palestine and we don't hear a word from the infidels. We don't hear a raised voice."

"When the sword falls on the United States, they cry for their children and they cry for there people. The least you can say about these people is that they are sinners. They have helped evil triumph over good."

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:02 PM

Little Hawk, you have taken my words and quoted them out of context. The sentence is not about "terrorising terrorists", but that the war, now begun (by your and my governments)cannot stop until terrorists realise that the concept of the "terror" weapon, ie themselves will achieve nothing in terms of political gain except the condemnation of the world.

We was the collective we of mankind, not me personally, obviously not you, but given the choice to fight and defend my family from these people or let them do it again and again and again killing who knows how many,(and I agree bin Laden has a soft and gentle look about him, even his body language is soft)then I would chose to fight and if nescessary die.I did not say we could kill all terrorists all over the world (a little bit immature to suggest that this is the thinking behind my statements.) But if we (the world population can decide together that ther is no safe haven for terrorists then maybe the concept will diminish.

Please don't misuse my words.

I don't feel happy about any war, I don't feel happy about any other human suffering, I do not feel happy, glad or any other feeling of pleasure that humans are once again engaged in conflicts that will leave more dead.Who ever they support.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: DougR
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:05 PM

I can't imagine what difference another week would have made. The coalition appears to be very strong as it is. It seems to me that considerable restraint has been shown by waiting until all ducks were in line before attacking.

Newsboy, you obviously are no fan of Tony Blair,and that's your right, of course. From my view in the U. S., I feel he has been very effective.

DougR

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST,newsboy
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:14 PM

DougR

Can you explain why you feel he has been effective. I would like to hear from him in the way I have heard from your president. i can't vote for your guy I voted for mine and would like him to do what Bush has done - tell us brits whats going on. I think that its a pity that some one who represents my country doesn't refer back to people.

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:18 PM

I don't know that Tony Blair has had too much choice (though I am glad about that)The establishment, our NATO treaty, The EU and our alliance and relationship with America made it almost impossible for us to sit on the sidelines.
It isn't an attack on Islam (we spent our time in Jugoslavia helping the Muslims) but a rightful attack on the people who think they can kill and main without care.America deserved and needed the support of the world over this.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:22 PM

newsboy I live in the UK, I heard Tony Blair on various satellite channels tonight. If the terrestial channels don't think the story is worth covering then vent your wrath on them.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:22 PM

Those that do not support the U.S. and the coalition countries in their reprisals against the Taliban and the ongoing campaign to eradicate Bin Laden and his network, should be shot for treason.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:23 PM

it's about time that the free world show who's boss

53 (bob)

Boss of whom, bob?

GUEST,newsboy, do you get CNN where you are in Britain? That's what I've been watching. I saw and heard Mr. Blair speaking myself.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:23 PM

Eric - Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you are immature or that you hold immature opinions. I was just using your words as a platform, so to speak, to make a particular point of my own...off on a different tangent.

People are always quoting other people's words out of context on this forum...it's an occupational hazard here, but I can understand that you don't like it, so I will try not to do that again (to you, I mean...I don't guarantee NEVER to do it again to anybody...I doubt I have quite that much self-control :-))

I don't personally feel that I am "at war" in this situation, although my country is involved in it. I can imagine situations where I would feel I was "at war", but this isn't one of them. This, to me, is just a huge multinational tragedy that began on Sept 11 (or you could say it began a long time before that, depending on your viewpoint). I have no wish to add to the existing body count.

If you feel that attacking Afghanistan genuinely will help end terrorism, then I can understand why you support it.

- LH

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:24 PM

I also heard his speech via the ITN website which had a live feed

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:29 PM

Blair Text

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:35 PM

Little Hawk;pax. No, I don't believe attacking Afghanistan will solve the problem, destroying the Talibahn might.......(not easy !) They don't hold the whole of Afghanistan and are not the rightful government either.And, truthfully the "world" has been at war forever (somewhere). I think that there have only been about 3 years or so in the last century when the whole world was globally at peace.I don't wish to add to the body count either. Where I live is fairly multicultural with a lot of Muslims and other Asian sub continent peoples. Quite a few are friends and colleagues. I worry for them, and for us all, I worry for my children. It is a sad day for us all.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: heric
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:41 PM

>>>>If you feel that attacking Afghanistan genuinely will help end terrorism, then I can understand why you support it. <<<<<

You just did it again, already. ;)

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: heric
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:57 PM

Good Work if You Can Get It?

Bin Laden Look-Alikes Reportedly Placed in Afghanistan

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011007/ts/attack_binladen_doubles_dc_2.html

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Justa Picker
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:00 PM

Here's a working link for the above URL.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:00 PM

The wonderful English weather (wind and rain) seems to have taken out my TV aerial today just as all this started to happen, so all I have is a blank black screen. You start to wonder what someone could do if they were really trying to make communication difficult.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST,newsboy
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:18 PM

Thanks Roger from Shefield for the text of Blair's and thanks CarolC. I only have terrestial TV. I ain't no genius but I would have thought that starting a war and being a big important statesman and all that you could ask the state controlled TV channels to interupt a soap opera or whatever and tell people what you were up to.

Roger - Read the opening words of Blair's speech "As you all know from the announcement by President Bush...." Sounds like he came second in telling his electorate that it had all stared. Not venting wrath - expressing disappoinment in my government not telling me what they're about.

I thought that they should.

Peace love and democratic socialism to all.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:28 PM

Hurricane, Picker,

with that Reuters report, perhaps the Humanitarian Aid should include Razors & 'Grecian 2000 for Beards & Moustaches' then? *g*

Though I suppose things are a little too serious for flippant comments like that.

Lets hope though, that todays events herald the beginning of a safer & better World for EVERYONE on it.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Justa Picker
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:30 PM

You would think with a 25 million dollar bounty, that someone would be willing to sell him out.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Noreen
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:31 PM

newsboy: state controlled TV channels ... which country did you say you lived in?

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:33 PM

Peace love and democratic socialism to all.

I like that. And to you, GUEST,newsboy.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Troll
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:37 PM

We need a beard-seeking missile. (not mine. I stole it from another forum)

troll

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:46 PM

*G*

Well, lets say that we are going to unbeard the 'lion' in his den.... if 'unbeard' can EVER be a real word!

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST,newsboy
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:49 PM

Noreen,

I live in the UK. The government licences the TV companies. They can therefore ask them the odd favour like a few minutes to say we've just gone to war. That's all I meant to say.

Meet you in a happier future

Ivan

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Noreen
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:57 PM

OK, Ivan- but that's a long way from state control; freedom of the press and all that. Another discussion for another day, perhaps.

Thanks, all, for the links and information here.

Noreen

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: DougR
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 05:22 PM

Ivan: I'll drink to peace and love, but not to socilism, of course.

As to Bush speaking before Blair, that probably was decided by the coalition (just a guess of course).

I also heard the PM from Pakistan yesterday and thought he made a very effective speech.

DougR

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 05:51 PM

Hate to break it to you DougR, but the US practices a form of democratic socialism, and has for a long time. You live in a democratically (somewhat) socialist country.

Cheers, comrade.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 06:21 PM

I found a story on the deployment of US tactcal nuclear weapons as well as China entering the war at http://www.debka.com

China Moves Forces into Afghanistan 6 October: Before even the launching of the major US military offensive in Afghanistan, long Chinese convoys were carrying armed Chinese Muslim servicemen through northwest China into Afghanistan, according to DEBKAfile's intelligence experts.

They were sent in to fight alongside the ruling Taliban and Osama Bin Laden's Al Qaeda. Their number is estimated roughly between 5000 and 15,000. Our sources report another three convoys are behind the first 3000, who crossed the frontier Friday, October 5. They are entering Afghanistan along the ancient Krakoram Road to the Afghan-Pakistani border, through the Kulik Pass of Little Pamir, which is situated in one of the highest and most remote regions of the world. Beijing is deploying this force in two places:

A. Whakyir, the Kirgyz tribal encampment near the Little Pamir-Tadjik frontier, opposite the swelling concentration of US and Russian Special Forces and air strength The Chinese have brought with them Kirgyz fundamentalist militants from the Ferghana Valley of Central Asia, as interpreters. From Whakyir, the Chinese generals believe, with Bin Laden's and the Taliban's tacticians, they will be able to block off the movement of the US-led force from its rallying point in Dzhartygumbez, Tadjikistan, no more than 35 miles from Little Pamir, into the mountains of Hindu Kush.

B. Jalalabad in north Afghanistan, at the foot of the Hindu Kush range. DEBKAfile's Chinese sources reveal that, immediately after the terrorist strikes in the United States on September 11, the Chinese intelligence service, MSS, handed in to the defense ministry in Beijing their estimation that the United States would go to war to overthrow the Taliban regime, for the sake of which it would sign a pact with Russia. The Chinese leadership viewed this eventuality as the most significant shift in the global balance since the 1962 Chinese-Russian feud, with dangerous implications for China's world standing and its interests in Central and Southwest Asia. They decided it must be counteracted.

The only satisfactory outcome of the Bin Laden crisis in Chinese eyes is the redeployment of Japanese-based US troops to the Persian Gulf, when the Kitty Hawk carrier moved the 3rd Marines Division out of Okinawa last week. Chinese intelligence did not miss the absence of fighters and reconnaissance craft on her decks. The planes stayed behind, but the very fact that the Kitty Hawk is no longer within operational range of the Straits of Taiwan leaves the disputed island with diminished protection. Beijing also took note of additional US military movements, including the Army's 10th Mountain Division based at Fort Drum, New York and that of another formerly Pacific-based unit, the 25th Infantry Division, out of Hawaii to the Persian Gulf.

According to DEBKAfile 's Far East experts, the removal of substantial US military strength from the Pacific Rim opened the way for Chinese intervention in Afghanistan and its effort to slow down the US-Russian advance.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: bill\sables
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 06:25 PM

Troll, The last thing we need is a beard seeking missile. If one gets out of control I'm right in the shit
Bill

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Gareth
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 06:26 PM

And who, pray, are DEBKAfile 's Far East experts ??

Gareth

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Noreen
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 07:32 PM

In their own words, DEBKAfile's editorial team is led by two experienced foreign correspondents and employs topnotch contributors in the world's hot spots

Hmmm...http://www.debka.com/AboutUS/body_aboutus.html

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST,Chip A.
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 07:56 PM

I read the report on debka.com Never heard of them before. Has anyone else? Has anyone heard of this Chinese troop movement from any collaborative source?

Chip A.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: heric
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 08:04 PM

Not to dispute the possiblility of Chinese troop movements (perhaps near, versus into Afghanistan), but I note that China has veto rights on the U.N. Security Council and has endorsed the recent resolutions.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011007/pl/attack_china_reaction_dc_1.html

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 08:07 PM

I have no idea regarding the credibility of these reports. However sometimes what is missing is a great clue as to what there is.

It is true that people live on either side of a border and consider themselves aligned with the Whahabbi Ilamic jihad.

Exaggeration is to be expected from every sector. Other unconfirmed reports involve the Taliban attacking a town in Pakistan.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 08:08 PM

*G* Youre right there Bill... & as I'm maybe a bit close to youre proximity, as well as my 'from Hull' compadres being also bearded....

...thoughif you ask Les, he'll confirm that to neutralise me & thee, the terrorists would just have to knock out the kettle....

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST,truckerdave
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 08:13 PM

Sounds like debka.com's experts may have some of those fabled degrees in "pschyo-ceramics". I've been watching all the news channels for a month and i've not heard a word about chinese being involved. But then again, there could be a chance of aliens from the planet Xenos becoming involved in the conflict so we ought to be careful.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: DougR
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 08:25 PM

That may be your belief, CarolC, but it's not mine. I live in a Republic, not a Democracy and certainly not a Democratic Socialist whatever you want to call it. So you may be my friend, but you can't be my Comrade. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 08:47 PM

It's not my belief, DougR. It's what they teach in college level courses that categorize political and economic systems.

Capitalism and socialism are economic systems.

Democracy and totalitarianism are political systems.

Our system, according to the way these things are defined in such college level courses, is categorized as a form of "democratic socialism" because we are a democracy, but we employ some socialistic practices, such as social security and medicare. Our system is partially capitalist, and partially socialist.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this, but my understanding is that there aren't any purely capitalistic countries in the world.

As far as being a republic versus being a democracy is concerned, I don't remember that even coming up. But you could probably substitute the word republic for democracy if you want. So in that case, it would be appropriate to say that the US practices a form of republican socialism. Gee... that has a strangely compelling ring to it ;-)

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Troll
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 09:18 PM

Re: China sending troops to aid Taliban.
I have done a quick search. Nothing from Pakistan, India, or Russia. The Xinhua News Agency has nothing but an article hoping the fighting will soon cease and a speech by the Premier praising the Central Committee for its work in establishing better relations with the US.
The Defense Dept. web site gives no mention.

troll

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 09:43 PM

I think quite a few of us could have problems if that beard seeking missile goes wrong, as far as I know the only HUll Catters without beards are Ickle Dorrit and White Dove.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 09:45 PM

Oh & Dorrie as well!

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 09:56 PM

*pssst* John, & Brid Widder too....*G*

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Troll
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 09:59 PM

How about dense black beards only? Will that see us safely home?

troll

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Shields Folk
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 10:09 PM

What has Demis Roussos ever done to you?

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 10:13 PM

trucker dave. I have been assured that people from the planet Xenos are Xenophobic and are afraid to meet new people so we have nothing to worry about :-)...

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 10:26 PM

Carol's right, Doug. The USA is a democratic republic which mixes capitalism and socialism, with more of a preponderance toward capitalism than many other democratic republics or constitutional democracies.

According to my encyclopedia a republic is:

1. a state not ruled by a monarch or an emperor...

2. a state where power is not directly in the hands of or subject to complete control by the people (!!!) but in the hands of various officials.

3. any regime where the government depends actually or nominally (!) on popular will.

So that's what a republic is. Gosh. Obviously some republics are a whole lot more democratic in nature than others! I'm gonna look up "democracy" now. Back in a minute...

Okay. Democracy:

1. Pure democracy - In its original sense (from Greece, I presume) a form of government where the right to make political decisions is exercised directly by the whole body of citizens, acting under procedures of majority rule. (Note that this in no way presupposes the existence of political parties or elections as that would just get in the way of the democratic process! And it's probably only possible in communities no larger than a single city...and not a really big city, either.) Direct democracy is what was practiced in most Amerindian communities, and in ancient Greece.

2. representative democracy - a form of government where the citizens exercise the same right, but through chosen representatives. This is known as representative democracy, and is the kind you and I have in the USA and Canada. This is where elections come in, and (but not necessarily) political parties.

3. Liberal or constitutional democracy...this is the same as number 2, with the additional proviso that there must be a constitution with legal restraints upon the behaviour of the majority, which legal restraints secure the rights of minority members, both individual and collective rights. An IMPORTANT development...otherwise the majority could do whatever they bloody well wanted to when they wanted to! Again, we have this in the USA and Canada. (People have found their way around it now and then, as in the case of segregation, or internment of Japanese civilians in WWII...but it's theoretically not supposed to happen.) This is where we get the Bill of Rights, among other things.

4. Social or economic democracy ...a system in which the government, regardless of whether it is democratic or not in the first 3 senses described above, makes a genuine effort to minimize social and economic differences! A graduated income tax, for example is an effort in this direction, as are Medicare and universal education. It is upon this definition that the Communist states called themselves democratic, as they were attempting a social democracy.

So...

I would say that the USA, while not a pure democracy (not possible...it's too big for that) is an excellent example of a representative, liberal, constitutional democracy and it's also a republic. And it's a rather poor example of a social or economic democracy, though some efforts have been made in that direction.

Canada is a slightly better example of a social or economic democracy...and rates about the same as a representative, liberal, constitutional democracy, with some minor differences...some to the favour of the USA, some to the favour of Canada.

Cuba is a much poorer example of a liberal, representative, constitutional democracy (they do elect quite a number of officials, but not at the topmost level). However, they are probably the best and most courageous example I have ever seen of a social economic democracy, specially considering that they are coping with a VERY difficult situation, economically speaking, and inherited an utter mess from Batista in 1959.

Looking further, it seems that the USA was the FIRST major experiment in constitutional democracy! And this is what Americans can justifiably take pride in. The French took the next big steps in asserting the rights of man, and the British themselves made great strides in adapting their own system into a modern constitutional democracy through peaceful and gradual transition.

So...the USA is a liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, utilizing significant amounts of both capitalism and socialism in so being...and yet a society in which "socialism" is more or less a dirty word. Strange.

Whew! What a mouthful. :-)

People use these words all the time, but do they really know what they mean...or do they just mean "our way of doing things"?

I think the Republican Party should change its name to something else, because they are obfuscating the whole issue...given the fact that Democrats are also republicans!!! And Republicans are also democrats!!! Matter of fact, I think they should both change their party names to...well...how about the Elephants and the Donkeys? Or the Tweedles and the Twaddles? Or something like that. We have gotta stop this lazy use of language at the highest levels, if we are ever gonna remember what "democracy" actually is! :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST,Karl Marx
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 10:31 PM

Come to my bosom, DougR!

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 10:37 PM

LOL!!! I suspect that had Doug and Karl had a chance to be pub companions they might actually have gotten along rather well...as long as the word "socialism" didn't come up too often.

- LH

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST,Karl Marx
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 10:50 PM

There is one concern I have about all of this, all joking aside, and it is this.

History does not prove that any 'war on terrorism' has been successful. It is difficult to pinpoint your enemy, for a start.
You then have to take into account that 'terrorists' are generally speaking more motivated in their objectives than the government(s) who are waging war against them (Know any GIs who would be willing to fly into the WTC like those guys did?)

I dont like what potentially could unfold from this. And I dont think that anybody should think that this 'war on terrorism' will be over by Christmas, or that the countries of the coalition forces will come away unscathed.

Jingoism is not going to help, here, I'm afraid.
And I honestly think that if world leaders dont sit down and address the Middle Eastern question for once and for all, I think our gung-ho will be the death of us.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 10:57 PM

Hehehehehe...

Well, thats a fine beard, Mr Marx... dunno why your your brother groucho just stuuck with that daft Saddam moustache though...

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST,Karl Marx
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 11:01 PM

Don't be silly.
Saddam has a Groucho moustache.

Always had, and always will.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 11:13 PM

Ah...I stand corrected!

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 11:19 PM

....& as for your serious point, AGREED...

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 11:29 PM

I agree with Karl Marx.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: DougR
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:12 AM

That's probably why, CarolC, and L.H., when we pledge allegiance to the flag, we say, "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and for the republic for which it stands, ...right?

However, I down't question for a minute, CarolC, that you were taught your POV in a university or college.

DougR

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: DougR
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:16 AM

Oh, and Karl ...sorry, you're not my type.

DougR

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:24 AM

That's probably why, CarolC, and L.H., when we pledge allegiance to the flag, we say, "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and for the republic for which it stands, ...right?

Beats me, DougR. Who wrote that pledge, anyway?

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:25 AM

Gone all day today and saw the coverage from a friend's house. Frankly gang, it's nice to be home and here and listen to the 'Cat's poli-sci fights! I too wish we had a lot more time, but this was, as I said from the beginning, inevitable.

I think the admin is doing a reasonable job here, but all the emphasis must be placed on "selling: the Muslim world that this is not a holy war. At that, we're not where we need to be. And I agree with our Guest that until the Israel/Palestinian issues are addressed and solved (no mean feat--ain't happened in 50 years) the terrorism will also continue. That's not based on bin Ladens' remarks, but only an opinion based on my lifetime of watching and it's just an opinion.

On the beard thing, there'd only be a few of us left in the folkie world, but we'll try to carry on without you!! (:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Amos
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:34 AM

You have to think about the lessons oif history, here, guys.

You know darn well if we develop a beard-seeking missile, they'll develop a fat-seeking missile and it will take out the rest of the folkies including our beloved Spaw plus forty per cent of the nation's population.

So let's be a little circumspect here, huh?

A

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:53 AM

Ohmygawd..........there goes the entirety of Central Ohio!!!! Columbus was just listed as the 5th fattest city in the United States. (How the hell do they figure that kind of crap anyway? And why? And how much did it cost us for that reasonably worthless information?)

I would be happy to donate my time to work with a programmer to develop a Catspaw's "Fockin' Assholes" Seeking Missile. A nice piece of weaponry to rid the world of terrorists, warmongers, xenophobes of all types, not to mention trollers, flamers, white supremacists, insurance salemen, door to door religion peddlers, pipe smokers, etc.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Troll
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:54 AM

Spoil-sport! 'Course, they'ed get ME both ways. I could shave the beard but the belly...?
In the immortal words of Coach Greathouse, "Suck it up, Cupcake!"

troll

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:58 AM

Oh, this is almost too much for me!

The one brilliantly bright spot in an otherwise pretty dark and dismal day.

Guess what, DougR... The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a socialist!

Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.

click here for the rest.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:01 AM

(I'm trying not to gloat. Honest, I am... )

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:05 AM

(ROTFLMAO!!!!)

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:09 AM

Spaw, whats wrong with pipe smokers?
John (a Sherlock Holmes fan)!

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:09 AM

Get off the floor now Carol.......Try a little harder.......Poor old Doug is probably..........aw, screw it.....I'll join you.....ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Troll
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:18 AM

Like I've always said, even a blind pig will find an acorn if it roots long enough.
It ocurrs to me that even socialists may love their country even if their political theories don't work well.

troll *** And no, Carol,I was referring to Mr. Bellamy. At least he did ONE thing right.***

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:22 AM

Listen..................Did you hear that?.................There it is again......Waaaaay out there on the left wing of the conversation..............What the hell is that???.................Let me borrown those binoculars....................OH..............it's OK..........It's just Big Mick ROFLHAO.........You have no idea how much mileage I am going to get out of this information..........LOL.

Mick

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Haruo
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:35 AM

Good to see Karl Marx here; I'd been looking for his email address unsuccessfully so I could invite him to look at the little Advent song the first three lines of which he wrote, in my Esperanto online hymnal.
La Ĝemo de la Homa Subpremito

Liland

PS If I leave now I can get home in time to catch the 11 pm news.
PPS: If anybody has a catchier tune for the Marx Advent ditty, send it to me!

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:09 AM

From "Guest" Oct 7, 03.22 pm-- "Those that do not support the US and the coalition countries in their reprisals-------should be shot for treason".Well Sir, who-ever you are, I am like many another ; I do NOT support "reprisals", unless they can be proven to be constructive in attaining the object of justice. "Reprisals" suggest revenge. Revenge merely propagates further "reprisals" in the opposite direction and perpetuates violence.I wholeheartedly approve actions directed at the elimination of the sources of terrorism. Any such concerted action MUST include the eradication of situations which breed bitterness [the root of terrorism---]. The likelihood of terrorist attack will NEVER end as long as the situation in Palestine [horror of horrors--a naughty word!]is alowed to continue. Many cotributors seem to see things this way; perhaps, "Guest" we should all be at least "half-shot"?

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:16 AM

Some funny stuff. however... Regarding the Chinese connection here are some findings:

From what I have been able to gather in just a few minutes of web-browsing, DEBKA is an Israli based military intelligence reporting news service with a somewhat hawkish Israeli bias. They are a small operation, but have many low-level contacts in various intelligence-sensitive positions around the globe. They are often able to "scoop" the major news services, sometimes by many days. Unfortunately, they often seem to do this by "rushing to print" and consequently often report rumours, anonymous tips, and unsubstantiated information. Here is a short appraisal: http://sg.wired.lycosasia.com/1055496.html I personally found the site fascinating. Nonetheless, we have to carefully evaluate the credibility of what we read there. It is not necessarily all fact.

The report of the tactical nuclear weapons is indeed alarming. Downright depressing, too. I suppose their use would be deemed "appropriate" if some horrific biological offense, for example, were made in the U.S. Maybe the idea is to bluff: "If you use biological weapons, we've got these nukes ready for you". However, these guys we're dealing with don't bluff because they just don't give a damn about the consequences.

Also alarming, is the report of Chinese troops (estimated between 5,000 & 15,000) moving into Afganistan with Taliban sympathies.

The muslim Chinese willing to join a jihad are not the same as Chinese regulars. The Chinese government can play 2 ends against the middle and still be sitting pretty. "Odd" religions are not cherished by Beijing and in fact control of those western provinces is loose to nil. Granted Tibet has been a major interest to them out of suspicion for centuries but the area of China that actually borders Afghanistan (the old silk road) was a border constructed by the British and has less meaning to the residents as you would think. So not to worry about an "official" Chinese entrance into the war. I would not be far from the truth to say that the central Chinese government secretly feels the fewer Chinese muslims the better and the more costly to the US the better. They have nothing to lose except a more stable region to run a pipeline from newly discovered oil fields in western China. These oil fields are about 15% of the ones in Saudi Arabia but significant. This is not to be confused with the oil pipline scheduled to go through Afghanistan and Pakistan.

There are various goals among the participants of this conflict not the least of which are again oil. The Wahabbi Islamic fanatics are none the less a tragic complication by bringing the conflict to our homeland.

Saudi Arabia is bankrupt and in deficit spending while extreme factions are insisting upon changes they expect to come about as thier oil supply is in decline and new technologies make it more obsolete within the next 50 years. Do realize bin Laden and his family are not ignorant when it comes to oil making the world turn. The Carlisle group is an oil investment company that to this day former president Bush is still a member. So is the bin Laden family. It need not be sinister connection but it exists all the same.

My point is, each side of this conflict may have an agenda not officially declared (including Loony Bin Laden) and those interests may be using "pawns" of all sorts to extract desired goals.

In the art of war it is said that to defend, your goal is to survive. To attack means you must vanquish. Bin Laden has us on 2 fronts and believes we can be defeated as a nation of influence in his part of the world. I believe he is mistaken since this nation could sustain unbelivable losses and still endure.

Our worst case scenario is about 50% casualty to disease and nuclear destruction. Realisticly it is closer to 10%.

If you want footnotes you will have to provide them - its after 2 AM!!

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:22 AM

There is still an interesting split in Germany: Much more support for the present action in (former) West than in (former) East Germany.

The end of a German newspaper commentary from today (speaking my mind) in my translation:

Who starts a war (addressing here the USA and Allies) should know a way how to end it. After the war politics has to take over. In short, Plan A, the military aspect, needs as a necessary complement Plan B, for the time after. The first day of the war has to be the first day of planning for peace.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: sed
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:43 AM

Jeri wrote: I don't think there's a solution that won't get people killed. I hope we can hang onto the compassion that makes being human worth it.

That sounds about right to me. But what makes more sense to me than anything is a very simple belief in Christ; maybe even the faith of a child in his loving parent. Is our life so valuable that we must kill to sustain/retain it? Most people seem to say yes; but I think about Matthew 10: 28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Looking to the Bible for answers may seem very quaint and unsophistocated now but I trust these words from the past which depict the future.

American/world unity isn't the real issue either: consider Matthew 10:34. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

in conclusion:

42. And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

(or just read the whole chapter)

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Troll
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 07:18 AM

sed, I'll be shot if I can figure out the point of your post.
First, you intimate that, as long as our souls are secure, it doesn't matter if the terrorists kill us.
THEN, you say that Christ says that he came to sow discord, and last, you talk about charity, not in Christs name, but in the name of the disciples!
I'm totally confused.

troll

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Whippet
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 07:37 AM

Beard seeking missiles bring up another idea to 'root out' the terrowists. Why not send in a cracker team of British and American barbers and hairdressers to go in and shave off all their hairy faces !!

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Troll
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 07:55 AM

Check out the "Dear Mr. bin Laden" section with the photos.

click here

troll

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: sed
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 08:10 AM

Troll, It's only confusing when you start reading the Bible. All is clarified through prayer and further reading. The main point is that we are spirits not flesh, that we serve our creator or we serve the one who he created.

Here's something interesting (seemingly unrelated): following from: http://www.pm.gov.uk/news.asp?NewsId=2686

In an interview aired on Al Jazira (Doha, Qatar) television he [Usama Bin Laden] stated:

"Our enemy is every American male, whether he is directly fighting us or paying taxes."

(So, stop paying taxes and you'll please Osama???)

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST,Kit Kat
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 08:18 AM

I'm not sure what I believe will be the result. If the attacks can destabilise the Taliban, maybe there can be a lasting political solution. Let's just hope it won't provoke wars elsewhere in the Middle East. I feel really sorry for Yvonne Ridley's daughter though. It does not look like Yvonne will be coming home. As a mother of a young daughter myself, I can't understand why she would take such terrible risks with her life.

Must try and reset my cookie.

Kit Kat

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Peg
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:25 AM

DougR: if you are going to quote the Pledge of Allegiance, please do it right.

It is not "and FOR the republic," but "TO the republic."

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:47 AM

Canada? Canada?? How would you like to have war declared on you by Canada????

Last time the US was in a war with Canada, the US lost. (Just the fact that they gave us back Detroit is enough to make you hate 'em forever!!!)

So, how do you deter people who are willing to die? By killing them all before they get a chance to do it themselves?

They don't want to die, simpliciter. If that were the case they'd all be dead already. Rather, they are willing to die to take numbers of others along with them.

Even Bin Laden looks like a sort of kindly soul...

Stalin was called the friend of children and animals, and liked to have photo-ops with schoolrooms of happy children.

When the sword falls on the United States, they cry for their children and they cry for their people.

That's the very LEAST we could do. We may (as a nation) be wrong for not crying enough for OTHERS. Admitted. But there's nothing wrong about crying for our own.

Peace love and democratic socialism to all.

And to all a good night!

We need a beard-seeking missile.

If they make one of those, I'm in deep tahini.

Well Sir, who-ever you are, I am like many another ; I do NOT support "reprisals",

Boab, please don't respond to obvious trolls! It just makes them happy -- it's what they want. (I don't mean the person called "troll" -- who usually isn't!)

Alex

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: DougR
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 11:38 AM

CarolC: I'm pleased that you are having a good day! As to to the author of the "Pledge," troll has it right. (Paraphrasing) "So Bellamy got one thing right!" I'm surprised, Carol, that you didn't point out my "for" error instead of "to." Peg picked up on it immediately, and it delighted me that she knew I had erred. :>)

Spaw: Could you design that thing so that it covered cigar smokers too?

Wolfgang: What do you feel is the meaning of the split vote in the poll? (East opposed -West for) The country is still divided? If so, I don't suppose that's too surprising is it? I would think it will take a few more generations before the division is compeletly healed ...but just my opinion, of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Peg
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 11:45 AM

Just doing my patriotic duty, Doug.

Peg

;)

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 11:49 AM

PART TWO

Subject: Mousethief's advice
From: GUEST,Johanna
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:02 AM

In a message above, Mousethief said:

"Boab, please don't respond to obvious trolls! It just makes them happy -- it's what they want. (I don't mean the person called "troll" -- who usually isn't!)"

Isn't Mousethief the guy who responds to every obvious troll? ROTFLMAO

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:09 AM

ROTFLMAO-PMP-POYP