BS: In love with a married man

Subject: In love with a married man
From: GUEST,Dazed & confused
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 08:55 AM

So what do you do ?

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 09:05 AM

If it is serious, get some counseling to find out why you are attracted to someone who is unavailable. There is nothing but pain, hurt and unhappiness when one goes down that road.

Trust me on this one as I have been there.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: KitKat
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 09:47 AM

Me too. Run far and run fast.

Kit Kat

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 10:15 AM

You give no details about the situation. Is he happy being married, with no plans to leave his wife? That's a hopeless thing right there. Is he currently separated from his wife? That too could be hopeless - if there is hope of them reconciling, then you should stay away. Have divorce papers already been filed? That's a whole different ball game, but one you have to play VERY slowly.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 10:33 AM

What you do is to put yourself in the shoes of the married man's wife. Once you realize the pain you might cause her, (or might already be causing her,) then your path should be clear to you. This is going to be the case no matter how you perceive the relationship between them. Fast-forward to a few months from now and you will see what I mean.

The next thing to examine is your own selfishness. You know very well that anything you do toward promoting a relationship with this man is purely to make YOU feel good.

Oh, while you are fast-forwarding, think about the problems you will cause, (or are causing,) this person you claim to love if you act on your emotions.

Folk music is full of tragic love ballads. Learn from them.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 10:42 AM

Been there; done that. Wouldn't do it again -- for lots of reasons. I still feel the same way about him, though we haven't seen each other for years and I've been in a wonderful marriage to a wonderful man for the past 19 years.

For one thing, I could never again live with the dishonesty and secretiveness involved. It's just not worth it.

Bat Goddess

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 11:07 AM

Many years ago, while unhappily married, I would have cheerfully dispatched the woman my now-ex husband was seeing. The pain was terrible, not only for me, but also for our two young children. Of course, it was not all of her fault, either. He was just as at fault. Since I didn't have the means to do her in, nor did I want to lose my children, I got even, or so I thought, by doing the same thing to him. The marriage was doomed, but I think this hastened it, because I came to realise I didn't need the worthless s.o.b. in my life. I divorced him and never looked back. He's the one who really lost out. He never saw his kids again, until one of them was an adult, he never remarried, never had any other children. Lives with his mom and still works at the same thing 30 some off years later.

Unless it is an open marraige and both parties are fully aware of what is going on, with each other's blessing, you have no business getting involved in his life. And, don't believe him if he claims it is an open marriage. If it is, you should be meeting her, too.

There is no future for you, so why would you want to get into this in the first place? Why is it "safe" for you? Are you afraid of committment?

Run, don't walk, girlfriend...find another path.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Mostly Mokey
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 11:37 AM

Good advice, all of the above. But say you decide to go ahead and satisfy your own selfish needs, and say your successful and maybe you win his heart. Eventually, he'll do it to you with someone else. Just rewards.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 11:44 AM

Don't listen to any of that crap! I say go for it. Whatever you got that he wants, go ahead and use it if it will make you happy. With any luck at all, you'll be able to score with the guy and break up his marriage leaving him available for you. Then it's just a few steps to the altar and you're the big winner. Go for it!!!!!

BTW, probably not worth mentioning, but I'll throw it in anyhow. This guy may be in good marriage and if you are successful in breaking it up, then it's possible that the scumbag will do the same thing to you. I mean if a better piece shows up later he can figure that since he's done it before, he can do it again. Not to worry though, you and his first wife can get together and talk bad about his ass and the new skank.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST,a married man who has been there
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 11:44 AM

love is easy, and takes little space. Finding time and space to pursue it are not so easy. If you are stealing time and energy from one relationship to feed another, anger and hunger result. As katlaughing said, unless EVERYONE is agreed, it will mean only awkwardness and misery. There are people who do manage to live this way. If you and he and she might be that type, I suggest you read places like this, where people who cope with it discuss it at length. Good luck.

http://www.lovemore.com/

http://www.polyamory.org/

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 11:56 AM

The "side" relationship can only fill the gaps the primary relationship has left. So the "side" relationship lacks the ingredients that are working in the primary relationship, and seldom can stand on its own if the primary relationship ends. One relationship (of that depth) has to end, with good closure, before another has much chance of succeeding. A lot of what makes the relationship "work" now will not be there if he is "free."

Do you want the most important things in your deepest relationshp to depend on what's wrong in the relationship between two other people, one of whom can only be partly committed to you?

And to what extent is your attractiveness to the other person based on the fact that because you are willing to play, he can ignore the things that need to change (in him) to make his primary commitment work? Do you want to be the feel-good thing that allows another broken relationship to drag on without resolution?

To what extent is your lover's attractiveness to you based on the fact that because he is willing to play, you can ignore the things that need to change (in you) to make a primary commitment work? Do you want him to be the feel-good thing that allows you to avoid a relationship with full commitment?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: DougR
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:05 PM

His wife doesn't understand him, right? Right.

kat's right. Run don't walk. It's a no winner.

There is a guy out there that has not already committed himself to someone else that is just right for you. Just keep looking.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:15 PM

Just because you're in love with him doesn't mean you have to be with him. You may feel that you "just have to", but you don't.

Just because you're in love with him doesn't mean he's in love with you. He may say he is, but he probably said that to his wife at one time or another.

Just because you're in love with him doesn't mean he'll leave his wife for you. He may say he wants to – he may even promise that he will – but he said his vows and made a promise to his wife that he's now willing to break. It may seem flattering to hear him say that he'd rather be with you, but you know what they say: Flattery will get you nowhere.

And do you really want a man who would so clearly demonstrate (by being willing to break his marriage vow) that he doesn't keep his word? How can you trust such a man to be truthful with you?

If he's cheating on his wife with you, please don't try to convince yourself that "he's different from all the other men who cheat on their wives" or that your relationship with him is so special that he'll never treat you the way he now treats his wife. Likewise, don't let him try to convince you. Instead, take off your love-blinders and look at the situation carefully: if you need to be convinced (by him or by yourself), then you already have good reasons to have doubts.

Best advice I can give: Wait till he has the divorce papers signed, sealed and delivered. Then wait another year. Then strike up a romance with him. (Are you afraid he'll lose interest in you in the meantime? If so, then lose interest in him NOW.)

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: harpgirl
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:21 PM

...would any of you like to take over my practice??????? such great advice!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:21 PM

Any kids involved here???

If so, guest, why don't you ask the children of split homes where one parent left the other for another person how good they felt about the new relationship.

My daughter dislikes her step Mother to this day. She loves my Fiancee' though. Wonder why? Maybe because the man I am with did not split her parents up.

"Love" is not that giddy emotion you feel when with a certain someone else. The Japanese have it a lot more sane than we do. Their word for "love" is synonomous with "respect". Love is an ACTION, not a feeling. And to be the catalyst for splitting up a marriage is one of the least loving acts I can personally think of. If you "loved" this man, you would consider that.

Get the counseling that others recomended, and figure out why you would even contemplate the doing of something as potentially destructive and selfish as encouraging a relationship with someone who has already made a commitment.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: kendall
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:30 PM

It is so easy to fool ones self. Some years ago, a married woman came on to me. We had a fling, but, I couldn't take the guilt that went with it, so, when she told me she wanted to be with me more than anything in the world, I pointed out that it was obviously not true. If it were true, she would have been with me. I yold her to get unmarried then we would explore, but, she didn't have the courage to do it, so, it died out. Believe me, there is no future in getting mixed up with a married man/woman. If he will screw around on her, he will screw around on you.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Amergin
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 01:14 PM

been there...been the backdoor man...she was seperated with three kids...and i would have to leave when he came over....and would be able to go back when he left...sometimes she would go up to seattle to visit him...and I tell you it was filled with a mixture of joy and pain...cause I truly cared about her...and when she told me she had gone back to him...it felt my heart was being ripped out and handed back to me in a paper bag...It took me months and months to get over it...and we are not talking...and I am not talking with most of our "friends" either....Now though in a way unexpected some one has put a hook in my heart and reeled me in...but she is not married...

I do have one question....do we ever have a choice in who we love?

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST,Still dazed, gradually getting less confused
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 01:21 PM

Thanks to everyone,

I know what needs to be done (known for ages but lacked the strength), & it's going to have to be me to do it. Not easy - but it's getting so that the thought of life without him doesn't feel like the end of the world. In fact it will be a new beginning. I must keep telling myself that. It's amazing what you can convince yourself of when you want to enough, in particular 'it'll all be alright'.

Anyone who has has broken away - what did you keep telling yourself before/after.

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 01:22 PM

Yep - double yep - and yes we do have a choice about who we love. If one is senseless about loving then it isn't love.

Someone once told me - give me your happiness and I will also have your unhappiness - guess which I will abuse?

Have the divorce papers in hand and then take some time (a year is ideal - but probably not realistic in our society) and go slow.

It could be just a case of lust you know.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 01:23 PM

Amergin,

We do have a choice in who not to love. If someone is already with another person we MUST choose not to get involved.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST,Dazed & confused
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 01:28 PM

I don't think anyone can choose who they love, it happens or it doesn't, but it's what you DO about it.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 01:31 PM

What you tell yourself when you get out of a bad preoccupation is... ISN'T LIFE WONDERFUL!?!?!?!?

Take whatever was good in this, and keep it. With distance you will see how smart you were to end it.

BTW, ending a bad thing is harder, MUCH harder, than putting your attention on a good thing. Once you shift the attention, the good thing has far more power than the bad thing.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 01:38 PM

My experience with a married person and the eventual break-up due to the spouse finding out was the crisis that I needed to get my life together. It was a wake-up call to me that *I* was not all right and that I had been very unhappy for a long time.

I made some very bad choices in that situation, yet through the counseling and therapy that followed I was able to put my life together. I strongly suggest getting counseling from somewhere (mental health professional, religious person, whoever) to deal with this.

I learned greatly from that mistake and will never ever repeat it.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Gary T
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 02:08 PM

Would you rather learn from others' tragedies, or do you insist on experiencing your own?

That wasn't meant to be snide, it may be a helpful thought to get through this. And as a general principle in all areas of life, learning from observing the mistakes of others is much more efficient and less painful than making them all yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 02:14 PM

Gary T may be right - there could be an underlying issue of self debasing behavior that you are setting yourself up for some form of punishment you believe you need. It's not a good way to do things - but folks do it - see a good friend, counselor, social worker, anyone - and talk this through!

I will shut my self up now -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 02:45 PM

Got married because it was the 'right' thing to do. No regrets there. Met a married woman who said she loved me, and I her. No regrets. The trouble with illusions is that you aren't aware you have any until they are taken away from you. -Mary Doria Russell, "The Sparrow." She got a divorce, I got a divorce. No regrets.

After all was in place for a much eagerly anticipated life in paradise, she decides she doesn't want to play any more. Two are born to cross their paths, their lives, their hearts. If by chance, one turns away, they are they, forever lost. -Michael Timmins.

Oh well. You pays your money and you takes your chances. No regrets. A huge part of real love is constant forgiveness. -Glen Close

And yes, I'd do it all over again, even knowing the outcome in advance. To love another person is to see the face of God. -Jean Valjean, "Les Miserables" ...

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 04:09 PM

"No regrets" – Tom Rush!

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Deda
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 04:15 PM

I knew a (then) married man who had a terrible, predatory pattern of flirting with, cultivating, consoling, validating, being extraordinarily sweet to unhappily married women -- until they left their unhappy marriages. Then he was scared off, cold, unavailable, uncommunicative, distant. He contributed to the break-ups of three marriages this way -- including my own. In my case, my marriage really did need to end and I am now happily re-married, but this MO was brutally hard on everyone involved. (The marriage he was then in ended, and I hear he has since re-married.)

Self-talk during this: You (I) deserve better than this. It is also true that these things tend to be patterns; a man who will cheat on wife #1 will also tend to cheat on any subsequent wife. Some people even cheat in layers -- i.e., cheat on their mistresses. It is not about whether one is with the "right" person. An ethical person keeps his word even if it's a challenge, and unethical person doesn't keep his word even if it would take little effort.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 04:47 PM

Everyone's situation is different.

We always hear that old saw about "if he'll screw around on her he'll screw around on you." Maybe yes, maybe no.

My father met his second wife while he was still married to my mother. I was young and knew you weren't supposed to do things like that, but beyond that, I didn't know much else.

It was years later, after I became an adult, that I realized what had happened.

My mother is a fine person - but she has this habit of denying that there is ever a problem, especially if she happened to cause it.

My father told me - I told your mother there were changes that needed to be made, and if she was not willing to make them with me, I would make my own changes, and I guaranteed her she would not like them.

And by golly, he sure did. He gave her a chance, and she denied that there was any sort of a problem. He was willing to work through it, and she wasn't, because she didn't think there was anything wrong.

My father was crazy in love with his second wife. They had a great time during their marriage, and when she fell ill with cancer, he took care of her until she died. I have no doubt that he was completely faithful to her.

Relationships are funny things. Not all of them last forever as much as we would hope, or as hard as we might try.

You have to carefully examine your own situation and decide what the stakes are.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 05:03 PM

Amergin
We all have a choice who we love
those that excercise the choices (in my experience) may be of the cynical persuasion. Those that don't, get the full flavour. BUT like neat whisky it can give you indigestion sometimes.
Dazed & confused
- there is always Mudcat - not as physical or personal but constant.
We loves ya baby.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 05:08 PM

Ah MrRed - Eloquence personified - you earn "My Hero of the Day" award - what we all sought to say in our own little way.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 05:38 PM

Even if the married man is in a bad marriage that really should end, the act of seeking out another woman to console him, pleasure him or give him whatever he's lacking in the marriage, INSTEAD of taking the step of ending the marriage, strikes me as an act of cowardice.

---------

Dazed & Confused says, "I don't think anyone can choose who they love, it happens or it doesn't, but it's what you DO about it."

What you do about it is DEFINITELY key! And perhaps one can't choose the person to whom one is initially attracted physically or emotionally, but one CAN learn to make better choices from among the "attractees". For example, if you're feeling all aflutter over two guys with similar physical characteristics, and one has an addiction he refuses to seek treatment for and the other is clean and sober, choose the clean and sober one even though you may be tempted to "help" (nurture, protect, insulate and otherwise not really help) the addict.

Likewise, if you're attracted to two guys with similar characters, and one has the character flaw of picking his nose and the other has the character flaw of picking up women in bars... well, if it HAS to be one or the other, choose the nose-picker, buy him some nice monogrammed hankies and teach him what they're for!

Of course it's harder, when you're aflutter over only one guy at a time, to just say no to the guy who will be bad for you when that means you have to WAIT till you meet the guy who will be good for you. One solution to that problem is to put yourself in a position where you will be more likely to meet plenty of good-for-you guys from whom to choose. And, let's face it, that position is not one of the ones you assume when you're in bed with a married man! Neither is it the seated position on a singles-bar barstool. I'm talking about going to the places where the good-for-you guys are: a church with a message you believe in, a rally for a cause you believe in, an open circle where people are singing songs you believe in... places where people are doing things you consider worthwhile. Then start meeting the available ones!

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 11:51 PM

You know ... I'm gettin' a little tired of the direction that this forum is going. IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT FOLK MUSIC ... RIGHT? So, maybe let's turn this around, a little, and talk about the classic songs, and there are many, that deal with this. I would suggest, for openers, CARLESS LOVE. I mean ... sheeesh ... if I wanted more of this crap, I could watch daytime T.V. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST,Dazed & confused
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 01:19 AM

Actually ... we've both got cars.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 08:41 AM

I hope his wife isn't like Jessie Mae Hemphill (Click here). Who says this thread isn't music-related?

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: jaze
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 09:06 AM

I've always believed that LOVE is never wrong, unless it hurts someone. Think about the others involved. Are you hurting his wife or children? If they can't wait for him to get out of the house and their lives, then go for it. Otherwise walk away. Love built on lies and hurt will never bring happiness.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: John P
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 09:19 AM

I generally agree with all the advice being given here about "walk away from it now" -- 99 time out of 100 not walking away means disaster. My own experience, however, was just the opposite. I met my wife while I was reasonably happily married to someone else. Although I didn't have an affair behind my wife's back, it quickly became obvious to me that the new woman was the love of my life. I divorced my wife and married the other woman and we will be celebrating our 16th anniversary in a couple of months. I'm really glad I followed my heart, and that my wife was willing to start a relationship with a man who was already married.

JP

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST,Dazed & confused
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 09:35 AM

Hi everyone I've sent goodbye email before an already arranged meeting would have taken place. If we'd met under other circumstances ... but we didn't. Good luck to everybody & thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST,Chip A.
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 09:41 AM

Guest,

Been on both ends of this one. I'm a very slow learner!My new motto is: You can't keep the buzzards from flying over your head, but you CAN keep them from nesting in your hair.

"Those who don't (make choices) get the full flavor" Yup! And if your own tasting is all you're interested in, then I guess that's the path to take, huh? But how much are others having to pay for your fun? Someone has to pay the bills and it's sad to see them paid by trusting spouses or little kids.

Hope it ends well for you.

Chip

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 11:04 AM

Cherish the love you've felt/feel -- but extricate yourself from the relationship. The dishonesty really isn't worth it -- including the dishonesty with yourself.

When I was in love with a married man, I was in a very bad marriage, but didn't have the courage to get out of it. (It took 10 years to do that.) A married man was "safe" -- discrete and would make no demands on me. And I deluded myself and convinced myself it didn't matter that he would never leave his quarter of a century wife for a woman half his age.

Yes, it's possible to love more than one person. I have been very fortunate to have had several "great loves" of my life. And I have been married to an incredibly wonderful man for the past 20 years. I don't require monogamy of him -- but he gives it; he prefers monogamy from me -- and that's okay. I'd never do anything that would even take the chance of screwing up the relationship we have.

Bat Goddess

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: jaze
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 02:23 PM

Good for you. You'll feel better about yourself and that's what is important.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 12:07 PM

The other consideration - could you really trust someone who is prepared to be deceitful with their spouse not to do the same to you a little while later?

I've been on my own for a while, and find the women who are easiest to approach are the married ones. Best of both worlds, I suspect. But I wouldn't dream of risking an affair with any of them, as I'm the one most likely to be hurt. Keep 'em strictly at arm's length.

It's hard to let go - but don't kid yourself that there's a future in it. Maybe in a couple of years after the divorce... but not before... and don't cause the divorce, as you'll never be able to forgive yourself.

Life sucks...

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 12:30 PM

I suspect that there are a lot of threads out there that state the same thing Deckman - no one here is pushing your mouse button to read it.

You don't like it - ignore it.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 06:06 PM

Never marry your mistress, you just create a vacancy....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 07:33 PM

Thanks for the advice ... Norton 1. I'm 'outta here. See you in a year or two.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Llanfair
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 08:04 PM

This thread is interesting because there are some basic assumptions made that are not neccesarily true.
1. That marriage is a permanent state. I do not believe that man, as a species, is naturally monogamous. The religions and social structures are forms of social control, so that children are cared for until they are old enough to fend for themselves WITH NO COST TO THE CHURCH OR SOCIETY.
2.Love grows, and moves, and changes. Relationships NEVER stay the same, and if both partners don't grow and develop together, problems arise.
3.There are many, many forms of love, and, if it is the lasting kind, then you want what is best for the other person. If that means letting go, so be it.
Cheers, Bron.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Nancy King
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 08:27 PM

Glad to hear you've taken the first step, Dazed & Confused -- it probably won't be an easy road, but it definitely is the right way to go. I'm another one that's been on both sides of this situation, and believe me, it stinks either way. You've gotten some really good advice here and I hope it will help keep you strong. Good luck!

Nancy

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 03:07 PM

Now that D&C has already acted, apparently, the advice keeps coming. So why not?

Having approached the equivalent situation, I agree with three posts: Llanfair's, which, applied to my situation, would mean asking what a 54 year old woman should have to abide by a decision made by a 19-year-old girl. There seems to be a very automatic acceptance of everyone's need to stay married. On the other hand I agreed with Sharon et al. If the married one is serious, let him/her prove it by getting the divorce. Finally I second the eloquent Bernard. Indeed, life sucks.

CC

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: kendall
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 04:59 PM

Bron, you are so right.

...some kind of love tears your heart,
When you knew it was wrong from the start,
But, try and explain the moth to the flame,...(Kate Wolf)

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: John Routledge
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 06:03 PM

Perfect Kendall. Reality rather than theory. Good Luck. John

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST,been there, been bruised
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 11:04 AM

And now, a word from the other side. I'm a married woman who's recently ended a very loving relationship with a single man. As many have said, the guilt and deceit just aren't worth it. It's been helpful to read all these comments - I'd have to agree that my overall take on the whole situation is life sucks. Then again, I'm always telling my 5-year old daughter that no-one promised her life would be fair.

But I'd have to disagree that just because someone strays once, they are likely to do it again. There's no way I would put myself through this pain again. I chose my commitment to my husband and kids over what feels like the love of a soul mate, and I don't regret it. My husband says he's willing to change to try and fill the emptiness I perceive in our relationship. I probably wouldn't have noticed the emptiness in my marriage if not for the contrast with the love I feel for this other person. Still I don't recommend having an affair to improve your marriage. I'm hurting, he's hurting, the only saving grace is that my husband doesn't know. I don't want to let this love go - it's taking all the self-control I have to not do everything I can to bring him back. Only time will tell if all the joy we shared was worth the pain.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST, There right now
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 01:46 PM

To been there been bruised: My wife is in a mid life crisis supposedly prompted by the reappearance of her old flame. That's what made her feel the inadeuacies of our marriage. He's married with young children, as we are. (Yes, DougR: His wife doesn't understand him!) She is leaving me and trying to get him to leave his wife. She didn't even try for an amiable parting of the ways, though, never mind a restructuring of our relationship. Instead she tried to trick me, then scream me out of the home to abandon custody of the children. It's a bizarre world.

Dazed and confused: I can't tell whether there are kids on either side of your equation. If not, then whatever, I guess. Go do the feelgood thing. If so, then consider the karma gods. (My wife told me I will go to hell for this. (Not abandoning custody.) Go figure. I suppose I'll meet her boyfriend's wife down there.)

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 02:29 PM

Of course dazed and confused might be a bloke himself which would complicate matters even more...

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST,Dazed & confused
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 02:40 PM

Hello been there, been bruised. I know what you mean about using all your self-control to not to try to bring him back. I hope 'my' he would have the sense not to come back if I tried, but I'm not confident of that, so I can't see that any contact in the future can be possible. So a good friendship has been lost. What is stopping me is still selfish, because although I'm sad & miss him - I have more peace than I've been for months. Sometime in the future I hope I'll meet somebody else - but I will sure find out if he's married very early on. . Hello there right now, I hope you & your children are holding up. & I completely agree about the bizarreness. Too true. . Best wishes to both of you.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST,Dazed & confused
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 02:45 PM

To McGrath of Harlow - no I'm not a bloke (BG)

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 05:43 PM

I think Llanfair summed it up well. People change. I am not available myself, but have become very fond of someone who is. I have said and done nothing about it, and don't intend to, though I think if I were available, it would be mutual. But I couldn't do that to my spouse and children, even though my spouse and I are no longer well-matched. Sometimes just having a friend has to be enough.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST,been there, no regrets
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 06:09 PM

i had a relationship with a married man for three plus years. we had a wonderful time holidays drunken nights out great sex...but he didn't leave his wife and i didn't ask him to. I was happy but now i know i was missing out and it wasn't real. I finshed it four and a half years ago. I still think about him loads, I adored him and he helped make me what i am now. But i hate to think about his poor wife and how she must have suffered and I would never do it again (i hope). Two weeks after I finished with him i met my current partner and fell madly and deeply in love. He is honest and honourable and lovely and we have the full relationship as a proper couple, no guilt, no secrets no hurt. The ex meanwhile is still having affairs and looking for sex and somehow now he seems seedy. Stay strong and you will meet your knight in shining armour! good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Bernard
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 08:59 PM

Just thought I'd mention this...

A happily married couple who are close friends of mine are both on their second marriage. Nothing unusual in that? Aah... first time around they were married to each other's ex's!!

A very unusual situtaion - but the exception proves the rule. All four remained friends - but then, there was no conflict of interest to confuse matters.

Hmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Peg
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 11:53 PM

(sigh)

what about being in love with someone who has a girlfriend or boyfriend?

Too many people trying to practice polyamoury don't walk their talk, unfortunately.

This topic is very close to home just now.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:58 AM

I think everyone has had conflicts like this at some time or another... 'swans may mate for life, but I'm no swan' as my friend Fin used to say...

I've done the married man thing, and I hope I gave him the confidence to know he was an attractive person, despite what his (now former) wife told him..... whilst she was off having an affair with someone else, she destroyed his confidence so much by sniping and bullying that he thought he was trapped forever because no-one else would ever want him..... Last I hear he was happy with his new wife and she had her comeuppance.... sometimes the other woman has a job to do.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:41 AM

When the marriage promise is "till death do you part," yes, it is assumed to be a commitment to a lifetime.

When one finds that one cannot keep that commitment, a marriage ends. It is not saying that the idea of that commitment did not make sense, necessarily-- it says, "I goofed. I can't, with you, for life." It acknowledges one's own responsibility.

Sometimes a new relationship starts.

What I think most of us said was, don't crap around on an existing commitment... a commitment is a commitment, made in good faith. It's not sound relationship-building to start a new one, while still committed to another one. It would be like starting a new fulltime job while deeply engaged in sensitive long-term project in another fulltime job. If you wanted to leave your job, you'd try to wrap up what you could before even looking, wouldn;t you? And you'd give notice? And you'd finish one job's last work day before starting the new job? You wouldn't work both of them fulltime at once, would you?

I can tell you from personal experience that the dynamic in a till-death marriage is different, every day, from the dynamic in a for-now marriage or relationshp-- whatever the basis for entering into it. It just is. I am not commenting on which is better-- but they differ, a lot, on many levels.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:34 PM

It would be like starting a new fulltime job while deeply engaged in sensitive long-term project in another fulltime job. If you wanted to leave your job, you'd try to wrap up what you could before even looking, wouldn;t you? And you'd give notice? And you'd finish one job's last work day before starting the new job? You wouldn't work both of them fulltime at once, would you?

But sometimes it's impossible to finish one job. If I had to empty my desk before I left on Friday, I'd never get away, because as soon as one pile is done, another is passed on to me. Sometimes you just have to hand the shit over to someone else and draw a line. You really do need to know when to walk away and when to just put it to one side.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:59 PM

Yes, of course, but you would not start all the whole batch of new projects till you'd done that, would you? You'd draw the line first?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: John J
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 08:23 AM

This must be a very painfull and gut-wrenching time for you, Dazed & Confused.

Thanks for posting here. I'm sure some of us can feel the pain for you (from experience).

Thanks (from me) also to all who have given their wise opinions and advice.

You are obviously a strong person, good luck for your future.

Best wishes,

John

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Noreen
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 08:30 AM

I can tell you from personal experience that the dynamic in a till-death marriage is different....

yes, Susan, but back in the real world... some of us have given everything, and more, to make a marriage work 'til-death , when that marriage had no chance of doing so in the circumstances. It takes two to make this marriage thing work- and sometimes it doesn't. Implied criticism of those who are already suffering and dealing with the consequences, from your moral high ground/marital contentment, could be taken to be offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: John J
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 08:42 AM

Good and very valid points Noreen.

John

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Larry124
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 04:31 PM

I'll bet the persons INSIDE these unconventional relationships, as personal, and intimate, and emotional and difficult as they are, are really glad that complete strangers can read a few words and have it all figured out, what to do and not do, who's at fault, and so on. What a bunch of self-righteous busybodies.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Llanfair
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 05:18 PM

Some of us have been there, Larry, and know how it can feel. The subject was brought up to seek advice and reassurance that there are, or have been, others in the same kind of situation.
No-one has it figured out, just want to tell how it was, or is, for them.
"There is a flower, I've heard them say,
It's called heartsease by night and day,
I wish I could that flower find,
It would ease my heart and my troubled mind"
Bron.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 05:37 PM

"There's still a little community though. It's in forums like this one, warts and all. I'm glad."

You write this Larry124?

Sorry your day isn't going so well - been there and done that *G*

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 06:23 PM

Noreen, I was speaking to another point that had been raised, and if you will read and quote my entire post you will see I specifically did not state a moral position. You have responded with your own agenda to a point I did not and would not make, and you have assumed experience on my part you know nothing about. It's easy to make a slam, to get at your own point, but it's a little harder to be accurate at this distance.

Please speak from your own experience, as I did-- not in contrast to what you assume is mine, if you want to comment responsibly rather than start an argument with me by putting words and thoughts in my heart that ain't there.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Noreen
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 08:23 PM

Maybe it's the way you say things then Susan- funny how people are always taking you the wrong way.

Me, I'm neither entering into an argument, nor pontificating.

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:56 PM

Noreen,

People take me the wrong way because they choose to look at me through self-imposed filters on what I say. I've let enough of it go unchallenged that there is quite a lot of misconception about what I actually do in the world and how I think about things.

If you want to characterize that as arguing, feel free, but I think of it as correcting a sloppy and skewed record, and speaking for myself instead of allowing the negtivity of others to stand in my place.

If you want to get into how many people do or do not take offense at how I write, and what I write about, the numbers are with me, BTW-- I just happen to be enough of an adult to encourage my friends to stay out of the fray when someone starts it up as you did with your post.

I am perfectly happy to take responsibility for what I say and what I mean. But I am all done taking responsibility for what people want to insist I must have meant because they are hampered from a good view by their blinders.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 10:55 PM

I figure falling in love with a married person involves some basis math. Marriage is like a fruit pie. A marriage = one whole pie. If the married person is missing 1/4 piece of pie in their marriage, then you get to fill in that 1/4 piece missing, which means the married person gets a full pie. What do you get? You only get 1/4 of the pie while the rest of your pie plate remains empty. Doesn't sound like a fair deal to me.

Miss Little Neo

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Amergin
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:26 PM

exactly my bonniebanjophyte...

personally...i just love it when two people who i love and respect argue here....

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 09:35 AM

yes, Susan, but back in the real world... some of us have given everything, and more, to make a marriage work 'til-death , when that marriage had no chance of doing so in the circumstances.

Yes, Noreen the real world... you seem to have made some pretty definitive, gratuitous assumptions about the world I live in. In the real world where I live, I have often been the one to come in the middle of the night to take the Mrs. out of a beating. In my real world, I have been the one to escort a lady to the lawyer.... in my real world, I have cleaned up the wreckage left by someone who bailed out, and I've raised her two children... In my little corner of the real world, I've reached out to and spoken up for people who have been in the situation you describe so painfully, when other churches and clergy have denied them the Sacrament and treated them like lepers. In fact I grew up in that sort of real world, and I was my mother's strongest supporter from the age of 13 on, when she created peace in our home by ending the abuse that had taken it over.

Noreen, I support with action my belief in people's right to decide how to live, for themselves. Not quite what you assumed, I think?

It takes two to make this marriage thing work- and sometimes it doesn't.

Yes, I referred to this in my own post, which you seem to have missed in your eagerness to set me straight from YOUR moral high ground.

Implied criticism of those who are already suffering and dealing with the consequences, from your moral high ground/marital contentment, could be taken to be offensive.

This thread was about someone asking for advice. Several other people posted about completely different situations as though what they had experienced were parallel, and it isn't. I commented based on how far off the mark I thought their "help" was, in relation to the topic of this thread. I questioned the logic's applicability to the situation first presented.

Noreen, you just were off base, and I think it would be mature of you to acknowledge it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Noreen
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 11:22 AM

Susan, it was the implication from your original post that those who did not stay in a marriage 'til death had failed, or in some way had been in error (unless "I goofed" means something else that I am not aware of.)

That implication of failure is what upset me, and that is what I was finding fault with. There is enough hurt and self-blame at the end of a marriage without it being added to by outsiders.

I apolgise that due to my personal sensitivities, and my awareness of the sensitivities of others who would be upset by that implication, my comment came out as critical of you personally. That was not the intention.

Perhaps, instead of sending me offensive PMs, you could be mature enough to consider whether everything you write is as perfect as you think?

Noreen

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 01:09 PM

Noreen, I meant by GOOF that one might have goofed in thinking, when one made the commitment to the person in question, that this was a person to whom one could sustain a commitment-- that the choice of person may have been the problem, not the choice to commit. That is what that whole part of my post says. It casts it in terms that one has simply made a mistake and intends to act to correct it-- as opposed to beating oneself up about being a failure and trying to stick it out when it's clear that's not warranted. Are you in the UK? Is that a term that carries a different meaning for you? Could it be that US vernacular is simply foreign to you? You objected to a word in my PM, too-- is there a problem with communication across cultures here, as well?

Perhaps, instead of sending me offensive PMs, you could be mature enough to consider whether everything you write is as perfect as you think?

First, when you go out of your way to be petty toward me, it is going to make me mad, and once in awhile I am going to use PMs to express this, and that is part of the purpose they serve. If you find this offensive then I would say, welcome to my world, where I get offensive PMs from time to time based on nothing I have even said or done. If you had brought your criticism to me first in a PM, we'd be ironing it out and laughing by now, not arguing on a street conrer, but you started this one and I am not going to leave your insensitive and skewed view of me to speak for me, as I have said above.

Second, where do you get the idea that I think what I write is perfect, and what makes you think it helps clear up a misunderstanding you tried to take resposnibility for, to close your post with another snide coment aimed at me?

I think it is actually the argument you desire, not the resolution, and not, I am pretty sure, to help anyone posting in this thread.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 07:31 PM

Shall we just say it's crappy all round and leave it at that?

Every situation is different. Time is a great leveller. Give it time, give it space, come back later when you can see the wood for the trees.

Now how about we kill this argument?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: TheMuse
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 10:41 PM

Little Neo

I agree with your math . . . . . unless the person that is only getting the 1/4 of the pie also has 3/4 of their own pie. Then they end up with a whole pie too.

TM

Subject: RE: BS: In love with a married man
From: GUEST,bella
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 12:44 AM

....and then how do you manage living in a single world for a decade or so....it's a couple's world. Do you seize the chance to exit out out of aloneness?

My life is pretty full (and generally happy). I've experienced "falling in love" with a coupled person, and years down the track, I pleased I just breathed thru it - he remains a dearly loved friend, and his wife some how or other accomodated our close friendship.

But... sometimes I feel sad - go to the beach, see couples; go to a cafe, see only couples; go to my folk club...

Oh dear, maybe I just need to leave town for a while.