Help Repairing Old Archtop

Subject: Help Repairing Old Archtop
From: GUEST,Bill
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 05:33 PM

I recently was fortunate enough to find an old archtop near a dumpster nearby, and being a sucker for an old guitar to fix, I rescued the thing, thinking I might have some fun trying to get it to play. I'm not sure of the make; all I can find is the treble cleff logo on the head stock. It needs a nut and a floating bridge; no problem there. However, it is suffering from some considerable cracks. The wood is split all around the f holes. Of course this means a solid spruce top. But what steps do I take to repair this guitar? I'm thinking some hide glue, humidity, and some clamps, and I might actually get it into playing condition. But what's the process? anyone got some suggestions? Bill

Subject: RE: Help Repairing Old Archtop
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 06:32 PM

Go for it! What harm can you do? At worst it can go back to the dumpster. Whatever you do, do not use pre-mixed hide glue. Use only hot hide glue, which you buy as crystals, mix with water, and heat in a double boiler. There is a short learning curve with this stuff, so do some practice on scraps first. For cracks around the F holes that are not structurally important, use a dilute solution of glue. Heat the area to be glued with a hair dryer before applying glue. Consider using popsicle sticks as levers in the F hole instead of clamps to hold the crack closed. Clean up what you can right after gluing with a brush or rag dipped in the hot water from the double boiler. What remains can be cleaned up the next day after everything is dry. Good luck. This kind of work is lots of fun to do.

Subject: RE: Help Repairing Old Archtop
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 06:42 PM


We should have several people who know a lot more about this than I do, but you might find help while you're waiting at MIMF.

The Mudcat PermaThread on Instruments has a few entries that may be helpful. If you go to the thread and do an "Edit - Find on this page" for "repair" there are about a half-dozen site links or posts that may be applicable.

Sounds like an interesting project.

John

Subject: RE: Help Repairing Old Archtop
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 07:12 PM

You'll probably have to take it apart and reassemble it, possibly make new top, bottom and sides, if the neck is shot(which is often true of these dumpster guitars--new neck, too--new hardware, new finish, and you'll have a practically new guitar!

Subject: RE: Help Repairing Old Archtop
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 07:27 PM

Sorry, don't mean to be sarcastic--If the guitar isn't worth much, it isn't worth putting any money or time into fixing it up--and if it is a good instument, at some point, you will realize that the repairs require good work instead of slap-together work--I went through this once, with an old Gibson, and in much better shape--by the time the dust had settled, I had spent quite a lot of money getting everything right--even the nut and floating bridge may be more of a problem than you may think--since they are not exactly one size fits all--

Subject: RE: Help Repairing Old Archtop
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 08:59 PM

Sorry, I have to disagree with M.Ted. Try to avoid taking everything apart if at all possible. If you are a novice, keep it simple, and try to get it playing. If money is no object, sure, go ahead and have a professional do it. But if you don't want to commit a lot of money, or if you are a dyed in the wool do-it-yourselfer, you may find you have a talent for repair work, and you might suddenly find other people giving you their less than first class instruments to repair. That is what happened to me. Al

Subject: RE: Help Repairing Old Archtop
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 09:21 PM

Yeah........Well, look at it both ways. The first thing I'd do is try to ascertain what you actually have. If it turns out to be some accidental gem then I'd look into some pro work, but if not, and you just want to play it and gain some experience at repair and setup, then do it yourself.

Ted may have been having you on a bit, but depending on the extent of the cracks and whether they affect bracing, you might actually do well to remove the top and neck. This is probably easier than you think and unless you're on some sort of timetable, it's a great learning tool. I'd refer you to Frank Ford's site at www.frets.com as he is truly about the best there is. Also pick up Sloane's book on repair.....Both are invaluable.

You have a chance to gain a lot of knowledge for time spent and in the end, if you come up witha decent instrument...GREAT!!! If the whole project goes south on you, does it really matter? Have fun and if you decide to stay at it, keep coming back and ask questions. We have quite a few very knowledgeable folks around here who will be happy to help. First though, DO ascertain what you have.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Help Repairing Old Archtop
From: rangeroger
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 11:17 PM

You should also try Stewart-MacDonald's Guitar Shop Supply, They have some very good books on repair that would be good learning tools.Particularly if you have a beater that you can make mistakes on without fear.

rr

Subject: RE: Help Repairing Old Archtop
From: mooman
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 03:53 AM

Guest Bill,

I'd go for it!

I had a similar experience while clambering over a rubbish dump in London (I don't make a habit of this folks! Just had a "feeling" that day!). Lo and behold, an all mahogany guitar abandoned, intact but for a humungous split, crushing and loss of wood partially around one side and a little on the lower corner of the top.

With a little investment in time and materials it wasn't too difficult, and a very satisfying, job to do a fairly serviceable repair. When it was finished, the "abandoned guitar" was a good player and I sold it sometime later for a fair price!

I'd say go ahead. There are several of us here with instrument-making and repair experience and I, for one, would be happy to guide you through each step as you reach it. Can't say whether you would need to remove the top without further information. I've done a few where that was necessary and several where it was possible to do a good repair without. Either way, it's a feasible and interesting project!

Best of luck

mooman

Subject: RE: Help Repairing Old Archtop
From: bigchuck
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:11 AM

If it has nothing but a treble clef inlayed or stenciled on the peghead it may well be an old Kay. If it is solid wood in the top (rare in kays) its probably a decent guitar, but the neck is critical. If it shows a visible bow and does not have a truss rod (likely)....it'll be real hard to get a decent playing action and may not be worth the effort.
Sandy

Subject: RE: Help Repairing Old Archtop
From: Arbuthnot
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 05:01 PM

There's a good book on guitar repair by Hideo Kamimoto. The Irving Sloane book is good, but is a bit restricted.

If you need to repair cracks, there are two techniques - fill the cracks with filler, or fill the cracks with wood. Personally, I think filler is for idiots, but it works if you apply a solid finish over the top - many repairmen would use this and refinish the guitar in black - very common for archtops - if you're not confident of your abilities, this is the safest option, as it can be dug out and replaced with wood at a later date. I once dug out a bad crack filled with filler on a Gibson Heritage and replaced it with wood. I sold it to a friend, who went bankrupt. The guitar was auctioned and sold to another repairman. I walked into his shop and found the guitar - he couldn't tell it had been repaired at all until I pointed to where the knife slipped and I left a tiny bloodstain. So don't be afraid to try filler as a make it work fix until you have the skill to use wood.

Subject: RE: Help Repairing Old Archtop
From: mooman
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 05:18 PM

The Hideo Kamimoto book is good and I have a copy but my "bible" is The Acoustic Guitar - Adjustment, Care, Maintenance and Repair by Don E. Teeter, University of Oklahoma Press.

There are many tricks to filling cracks which all work to a better or worse degree according to the nature of the damage.

Let us know what you decide Guest Bill and you can be sure of a lot of good advice here!

Cheers

mooman

Subject: RE: Help Repairing Old Archtop
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:52 PM

Parts of another old "F-Hole archtop" reside down in the "laboratory" (shop)here awaiting restoration along with several other decrepid relics, from muskets to sewing machines and all manner of gizmos and thingamajigs that were just way too neat to leave at the local Recycling Center (formerly known as "The Dump").

This archtop was purchaced from a Co-worker while employed at the State School for the Simple-Minded (actually, that's what they called it in the old days; it had a much more dignified moniker at the time) for the princly sum of $5. Some research among associates who know about such things as well as Luthiers indicate that it was probably an old Harmony. Harmonys were seldom ornate or prestigious, but they made some fine utilitarian instruments in their day, and some Musicians opine that they never got the respect that some of them deserved.

It seems that this particular type of guitar was popular between the 1930's and the late '40's for use in the big "Swing Bands" of the era; they were braced up like a battleship and strung with heavy steel in order to produce a loud (before the introduction of electricly amplified guitars)rythmic chorded "beat" which essentially functioned as a "metranome" for the band . This would explain the "floating" steel, heavily designed tailpiece and heavy pick guard which oddly partially occluded the lower "F"-hole. The neck was rather narrow for such a large body, which makes sense if it was intended for strumming chords, and "crowned" like a country road - slightly arched accross the fretboard. The fingerboard was surfaced only with alternating tiles of black vulcanite and "mother-of-toilet-seat" (Feaux pearl).

After replacing a few small parts and removing the pick guard, I strung the the old archtop up with nylon. Unexpectedly, it produced a wonderfully full, mellow, sweet and beautiful tone. The neck was sufficiently wide to use for fingerpicking, which was facilitated by the crowned fretboard. We used it for several years developing our style, learning songs, and occasionally performing in Church or for anyone who whould hold still long enough to listen. It seemed particularly well suited to gospel music.

After obtaining a couple of other guitars, the archtop went into drydock for much-needed neck re-allignment, refinishing, and replacement of that hidious pearlite fretboard. I got as far as pulling the neck and sanding everything down, pulling the german-silver frets and ripping up the fretboard tiles (would have done it differently had I known then what I know now)... and so it sits.

If you want my tuppence worth, I'd vote with the "Go for it" crowd; most of what I have learned about luthery has come from tinkering with "clunkers".

Subject: RE: Help Repairing Old Archtop
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 01:49 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Help Repairing Old Archtop
From: GUEST,Uncle Jaque
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 02:25 PM

In order to streighten the neck, I inquired of a local Luthier who let me check out his shop-made "rig" for doing same, along with some advice on heating the wood to facilitate bending. Based on notes and sketches, I make one out of scrap lumber and hardware, and it works pretty jiffy - even used it to streighten out the barrel on a Harper's Ferry M-1816 musket we were restoring.

That Hideo Kamimoto book was helpful, but of course I loaned it out (as I am wont to do) and never expect to see it again. Perhaps I'll try the Don E. Teeter one per advice above.

There is an earlier thread about glues, but we are learning (the hard way, per usual) that "Al" gives sound advice on hide glue; I glued up the back of one of my "Parlor" guitars where it was peeling off with the squeezebottle variety, and later at a reenactment where it was hot & humid, found it stuck to a tent where I had leaned it. When I peeled it off, there was grass, straw etc. stuck to it like flypaper, and the back had opened back up and was smiling at me!

One of these days when I learn what I'm about, I may try to build a replica Civil-War era guitar from scratch. But for now, there's a lot to learn, and the best way I know how short of taking an intensive course somewhere exotic (and expensive) is to keep horsing around with these broken-down old beaters and reading up on it. I learn from frequent boo-boos, and in the event one of 'em is "catastrophic"... oh well.. it's not like youve screwed up your Daddy's favorite Martin (unless one is crazy enough to attempt a repair on a valuable instrument without prerequisite expertise - I've seen many a fine antique firearm ruined that way).

Also, Bill, we have come to the right place to access a wealth of expertise here on the Mudcat; some of the finest brains in the musical world, methinks, are hanging around here for the picking!

So let's put the glue on to boil, get messy, and have an interesting day!