BS: The Curse of FJ Child again

Subject: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 06:12 AM

Probably the biggest complaint against the Child ballads is that he did not collect the tunes. I notice that most of the time when I answer lyric requests I haven't bothered to post the tune (mainly because I can type lyrics of the top of my head from memory, but I can't write ABC like that!)

Are we creating the same problem for the future that FJ bequeathed us?

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: Tom French
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 06:47 AM

There exist a large compilation of Child Ballad tunes published back in the early '70's, maybe before then, which I believe are still in print. An author's name of Bronson comes to mind. There are several volumes, and there are a large number of tune variants for most ballads. The title is something very general such as "The Tunes to the Child Ballads." Any library or bookstore could track it immediately for you. Copies of these volumes are generally not stocked by bookstores. Most college music libraries hold copies as they are unsurpassed by any other work. You may also discover why Child skipped the music. He would have never completed his objective to catalogue the ballars by literary content had he enlarged the taxk.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: Tom French
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 06:54 AM

Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads by Bertrand Bronson

Availability: This title is currently out of print. You can buy it in zShops, or order it used.

Amazon provided the above and then below I saw something showing a price of $675, so I think you will really enjoy reading this at your local library. It is a massive work, so decide first what ballads you want to look up and study. There may be a lower price. In the 70's the paperback sold for about $40 oer volume.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 07:06 AM

DMcG, you do have a point. As far as I am aware, there is a major project (I think led by MMario) which has been running for a while to supply the missing tunes to lyrics in the dt.

I am pretty much like you but also there is the point that when someone just requests lyrics one assumes they already know the tune so the request is answered by just posting lyrics. This is perhaps short sighted as someone else reading the lyrics may not know the tune and presumably it adds to the missing dt tunes...

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: CapriUni
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 09:24 AM

hmmm... and then there is the reverse problem. There are tunes in Alan's Midi page for which there are no lyrics in the DT.

Maybe we should start up with a new prefix -- not "lyrics request", or "tune/chord request", but "Song request" when someone wants both, as I most often do...

I notice, glancing over the biography of Child at Lesley Nelson's site that he was a near contemporary of the Grimms (a little later, but I think their lives overlapped some). The Grimms brothers started out studying law, moved into studying language, so they could learn the older roots of German law, and from studying language discovered their niche in collecting folktales. They then realized that they could influence German society more effectly through stories than through the legal system, and the rest as they say is history (or should we say "legend?)

:::Dragging this a little bit back from complete thread drift:::

Did Child have similiarly political or social motivations?

If so, the tunes would definitely be of secondary importance...

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 10:19 AM

Child did not collect from tradition; his work is a scholarly compilation of texts from earlier published and manuscript collections.  The early ballad collectors were largely antiquarians, interested in "folk poetry", so few of them recorded tunes.  As a rule, more melodies were noted in Scotland in the 18th and 19th centuries than in England; this was the result of a specific political agenda on the part of Scottish collectors, and a lack of one (remedied, to an extent, later on) on the part of English collectors.

I do post texts without tunes (if I don't have the tunes) in response to specific requests for them, but I see no point in their being harvested for the DT until tunes are supplied, and I have certainly annoyed people in the past by questioning the value of posting (no specific request having been made) an unattributed lyric with no melody.  At least if people quote their precise source (by which I mean, ideally, not the record that they heard it on, but the source of the version on that record) other people have a reasonable chance of identifying the right tune for it.  I've managed to identify a number of unattributed texts in the DT and supply the correct tunes for them, but it's time-consuming.  For illustrations of the difficulties involved, see some of my notes in the "Missing Tunes Wanted" threads.

Child supplied precise details of his sources, and it's best if we all try to do the same; if we don't, the value of much of what we contribute here is seriously compromised.  Child and Bronson have, of course, been discussed here many times; a quick search of the Forum will get you plenty of additional information.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: CapriUni
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 11:29 AM

I was just over in the Mudcat Cafe for Kids, and find it really sad that there are even fewer melodies over there than there are in the "adult" DT... since kids are more likely (one would hope) to want to sing these songs rather than study their chord structure or folklore roots.

Unfortunately, the tunes I do know for some of these songs are completely in my head (Kids' culture may be the most widespread, truly oral culture we have in America), and my knowledge of musical notation never got beyond the "hunt 'n' peck" method, so it would take forever for me to make a midi of these tunes out of NWC...

Another mission for a dedicated Mudcatter? Could poor, overworked MMario get a Kids' song deputy, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 11:47 AM

A copy of Bronson's tunes for the C. B.'s will be available on the Mudcat Auction quite soon I do believe.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 01:55 PM

Thanks for your comments so far. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned Prof. Child! My concern was much more the one John Freeman and CapriUno have picked up. We know the tune and lyrics together of whatever we post here - for someone else to put them together together in a few years time is an altogether more difficult feat, especially if we haven't quoted the source(as I'm sure Bronson would agree!)

To answer my own question, I think:

a) on the one hand, we are certainly creating this problem for the future, and it is probably unavoidable to some degree. There are masses of lyrics on the Internet that I can't find the tunes for. This post was in fact inspired by the fact that the Spirituals held on Mudcat are largely lacking melodies, though most can be found with enough effort.

b) the fact that music is 'permanently and accurately recorded' now in a way that was impossible in FJ's time may actually go a long way to easing the problem. Sheet music is far more limited as a recording medium than audio (IMHO)

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 04:49 PM

Before you all dash off and get a bidding frenzy for the Traditional Tunes to Child's Ballads you need to visit the wonderful Contemplator's site. All the Bronson tunes are in midi format. It is another fine academic example of what the DT could be if less time was spent B.S.ing.

http://www.contemplator.com/child/index.html

Have fun! You will spend all day.

Sincerely,
Garoyle

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 05:34 PM

The spirituals being posted now all have a reference or references to where the tunes may be found (if there are tunes- some have been lost).

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 07:25 PM

Gargoyle, Lesley Nelson's site remains one of my favourite sites on the internet and I believe it is a superb example on what can be achieved on the internet. I have "wasted" many an hour there as once I get there, I want to see more (and yes, I am one of the sad ones who even ends up sing along to the MIDIs there)...

Where you and I seem to disagree is that I see nothing wrong with BS in itself, in fact I see advantages in the community side of things here - even for those amongst the academic types who feel uncomfortable with it as many of us have some snippets of information, some questions get answered more quickly and of course some BSers know quite a bit...

Sticking with music I also feel that a site like this should extend beyond scholarly research and certainly should include discussion of folk clubs, experiences of performing, etc as well as knowledge of musical instruments, etc.

On the pure non-music side, I feel that oppertunities in terms of getting to know other people who share the interest in music (for those that WISH to) are important.

Where I feel matters go wrong is that the noise (communication term - something that hinders the message getting through) here, tends to detract from many aims being achieved here. I see room for scholars and ordinary "just session and folk club players like myself" (make no mistake, I'm not an academic by any stretch of the imagination) to co-exist happily here, but I feel that the overall approach to achieving any such goal is wrong.

To continue with the more academic music thoughts, wouldn't it be nice if future visitors could look up a song (and they do come here initially for such information) and see a well researched article on the song? It is of course possible now to search and find a good thread but any search is likely to yeild a number of BS hits that to wade through and in time it is going to get harder for visitors to find discussions they are looking for and I dread to think how difficult the task for a researcher will become...

Ah well, as was mentioned in another thread, this type of chat is flogging a dead horse but I fail to see why the horse should die when everyone, regardless of interests within (and arguably without) could gain - the scope is here but the application is wrong, at least it is IMO.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: Chris Amos
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 03:25 AM

I was just at another site looking at copies of old broadside balads which had text only and no tunes. I suppose that if people were grabbed by the story they would fit the words to their own tune. This could be the "folk process" at work.

This is most likely wrong as many songs are collected from different ends of the country with similar tunes.

I think it is not good to treat these songs as if they were museum pieces but to play around with them, A.L.Lloyd was never shy to write an extra verse or two or to set a song to a different tune.

regards

Chris

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: Nynia
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 08:27 AM

Chris - if this was the David Murray Collection of Broadside ballads on the topcities website then you stumbled on a site that is being developed as a teaching aid for Social History at Glasgow Uni and for a Broadside Ballads class at the GU Crichton campus.

The topcities site is a just temporary site, a frames site (which I feel will make the ballads harder to view) will appear shortly on the Crichton campus server. Very much as you suggested, these broadsheets were published, as you see them, with no music, they would either have been well known in their day, or a singer would sing them to a popular tune of the day. The new site will have some recordings on it, initially about ten broadsides will be covered but the aim is to have recorings for each of the sheets (over 250) eventually. This is all down to availability of further funding.

If this funding is forthcoming it is hoped that some of the 2,000 (approx) unclassified & unsorted broadsheet ballads that Glasgow Uni posess in their special collections vaults can be included in the project.


All the best,

Nynia.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: CapriUni
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 12:07 PM

Nynia -- any chance for a URL? This sounds fascinating!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 11:13 PM

Jon...for the second time in a week I find your voice eloquently expressing my thoughts.

For a "non-academic" it is curious that you should use a "communication theory" term coined in the late 60's, by I believe, Kenneth Burke. It DOES explain the situation...and help put it into perspective. A dissertation is screaming to be written in regard to the popular/masses evolution of web-commuication and this place.

Thank You!!!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 03:37 AM

Gargoyle I certainly do not consider myself an academic but I have had quite a mixed career which included almost completing an HNC (1st year degree level) in Business IT. I came across the term noise in the communication module of that course. I think the module was called "People, Communication and Change".

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: Nynia
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 05:50 AM

CapriUni, I have sent you the URL in a PM for the reasons stated within, I hope you find the site interesting.


Nynia.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 01:18 PM

"Noise" is in general use now. Its origins in the sense used by Jon go back to the 1920s (see OED)

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of FJ Child again
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 09:07 PM

Gargoyle and Dicho, this should help. I really don't know it's origins but that was the area and the theory we touched on and in honesty, skimmed.

Jon