Music: The REAL stand/sit thread

Subject: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: SeanM
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 08:44 PM

OK, I got suckered in to reading the pointless troll thread, but it was for a reason...

Currently, with the group I've been picked up by, we sit to rehearse, but stand to perform. This is a new one on me - previously, we always tried to stay as near to how we were going to perform during rehearsals.

But - I do find it doing some good for me vocally. By having the normal resonance cut by sitting and singing, I'm having to develop more ways to 'push' the volume level - proper, crisp enunciation; finding that point where I'm adding volume with throat without straining it... that sort of thing.

Given that we're to be singing primarily on non-miced stages, it's a topic of interest to me.

Anyone else have any experience on that line? Toilet humour's already been covered, so you'd not be adding anything new.

M

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: 53
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 10:24 PM

sitting or standing it doesn't matter to me, i just love to play guitar.

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: ddw
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 10:27 PM

Yeah, Shawn. I opened that thread thinking it might be on the topic you've raised.

I've been trying for years to figure out which is best and you're right about the breathing. Practising sitting down does force you to work on breath control, projection, etc. and that strengthens you when you stand up. Major problem I run into is that it doesn't get you used to controlling your guitar.

When I play sitting, I wedge the guitar between my leg and armpit and can do whipping slides up and down without it moving. But I sacrifice on the vocal end.

If I stand, the vocals are stronger, but I have a helluva time controlling the instrument. And sometimes the stool/chair/whatever that's provided just won't let me get into a comfortable position for sitting, so I lose the voice thing and find the guitar hard to catch.

Guess I just haven't worked on stage enough in recent years. I really don't remember having all this trouble back in the '60s and '70s. But then, I wasn't doing a lot of the guitar stuff I am now.

I hope somebody else jumps in here with real ideas about this.

david

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: BlueJay
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 03:12 AM

I've always preferred to sit, personally. I think it gives me greater control, as ddw mentioned. We usually practice and brainstorm while sitting, 'cause we're basically pretty lazy, but once in a while, (like right before a gig), we do practice while all standing.

This is relevant to me because in our band, I'm usually the bass guitar player. (Sometimes I play guitar or mandolin, depending on the song). My left shoulder gets achy after a while. I only weigh about 140 lbs, and having a bass that seems like half my body weight hanging off my shoulder is tiring. So I like to practice sitting down.

The funny thing is, standing up to perform seems easy. We always play better to an audience than in rehearsal. More inspired, I guess, but you will catch me massaging my left shoulder between songs.

I've even taking to hanging the bass off of my right shoulder at times, like many mandolin players do, to relieve the stress. I have named this condition: Left Shoulder Syndrome. Though I have a Registered Nurse licence, so far the medical community is not impressed, and doesn't seem eager to add it to the list of diseases covered by insurance. Apparantly it needs to progress to Tendonitis or other recognised MSK disorder before insurance will cover it, and they will then advise you to sit or get off of the bass.

I know this all seems like taking a really long time to arrive at a bad pun, but it is all true. Thanks, BlueJay I've even taken

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: Cappuccino
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 04:06 AM

Yes, even though I too took part in the other thread, I'm glad to see this one. I'm encouraged by Sean's remarks - I'd always been told that you didn't get full vocal power by sitting down, but on the other hand, like BlueJay, I get the shoulder problem too (and I used to play bass as well - bloody heavy things) and now I prefer to play guitar on a stool (trad folksinger style!)

But, if there's really a benefit in 'pushing', like Sean says, then I'm encouraged to try it and see what happens.

I can see several points in the last two senetences where the obvious lavatorial humour could have gone in - happy to have resisted it!

- IanB

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: SeanM
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 05:26 AM

As far as pushing the ol' vocal chords - it's a really thin and individual line. I'm toughening mine up with the rehearsals - when I first started, I KNEW I'd overdone it, as I could feel the burn in my throat for 3-4 days afterwards. Now, I can get some degree of volume (not as much as I'd like yet, mind you) and not get the uglies of the voice for the next week.

Rehearsal, rehearsal, rehearsal.

I'd imagine we sit mainly because a) laps make better music stands than trying to hold the book in hand the entire time (given we're off sheet at showtime), and b) we've a few mandolin/cittern/bazouki/whatever else held still long enough to string it players... handn't truly considered the strap issue, but 4 hours straight (give or take) is asking a bit much of anyone...

M

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 08:34 AM

I have found that I do better if I rehearse the same as I perform. In other words, if I will be performing standing up (I generally do), I rehearse standing up as well. That way I'm in familiar territory.

I find I can sing better standing (I understand the "pushing the voice by sitting" thing, but don't do that myself, so I can't vouch for it). As for the playing part of the equation, if I always stand to play, my hands will always be suspended over the strings at a consistent angle. In the past, I used to practice sitting down, then stand for the gig, and wonder why my instrument felt so different. Now I stand all the time, and don't have that problem.

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: Bluegrass Girl
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 10:28 AM

I always sit to "practice" - play alone at home to learn words, develop power, etc.

We stand to "jam" - no mic, far too many pounding Martins, etc. Kind of like another form of practice.

Then when I get on stage with a mic, I actually have to cut back on the voice -- or I'll blow out the sound system.

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 10:33 AM

David's comments about having less trouble with things in the 60's and 70's get nodding agreement from me---The finer points of vocal and guitar technique were less important that being "spontaneous" , and the idea that you ought to be able to perform things the same way each time flew in the face of the "be wild and free" sentiments of the time-In recent years, I've got so that I like to know exactly what is going to happen, and when--so I try to do a "dress rehearsal" in whatever configuration I am going to be working(I prefer to play and sing while sitting on a stool, because it gives me room to breath, plus better guitar contro than standing, but often have to stand and even walk around a bit while playing ukulele)--

Although I've never used one, I have seen a number of guitar players use a stand that holds the instrument in a fixed position while they are standing, which may be a good solution, if you need to be standing, but want more instrument control--

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: Cappuccino
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 01:18 PM

Sean, you may be 'off sheet' at showtime, but more and more in my old age I can't be bothered to learn new things by heart... the brain's slowly going. So I no longer give a hang if I have a music stand in front of me, but that's a different discussion.

(Although, while I'm at it, playing/singing from music is accepted in church and worship situations. I was fascinated to see the star of the recent Champion of the World worship event at Wembley reading his lyrics off a music stand, in front of 45,000 people!!!)

Apologies for drifting off-subject. As I say, the brain's going...!

- IanB

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 04:01 PM

SeanM said, in part:

Given that we're to be singing primarily on non-miced stages, it's a topic of interest to me. Does that mean a well-catted stage?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: ddw
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 06:24 PM

MTed — I've never seen one of those gizmos that holds the guitar, but it sounds like just the thing I'm going to need when I get a National steel.

Bluejay — if you think a bass is heavy, you should try one of those little suckers on a strap for a while. Don't think I want to stand with one on for long.

david

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 06:50 PM

Wow - never thought about it before - I sit sometimes and stand sometimes. Never have noticed a difference.

After several hours of standing I do find that my back hurts the next day though.

I think that is just age. My wife says I have a very loud projecting voice, playing in bars that aren't that reputable will do that I think *G*, but she still likes it. If I sing from my diaphragm it doesn't matter how I do it, sitting or standing, it still projects well.

I am just now working on getting some tremelo into my voice though. My ultimate goal is to be able to yodel.

Steve

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: AliUK
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 07:05 PM

I solve this problem by getting someone to play for me. I am not the worlds most proficient guitar player ( just good enough to get by) , but I love singing ( my forte). What helped was that I was trained, so I dont have the problems of strain ( singing from the diapragm etc.) also, i smoke so I have to develop techniques ( other than giving up) to help my breathing. Though I must say that aftewr 20 years as a smoker I dont have too much trouble when I sing.

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: MMario
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 08:12 PM

Sean - I do virtually all of my practice sitting - and find it much easier to project while standing; which means if I get my volume and projection up to where I want it in rehearsal - performance comes pretty easy.

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 09:00 PM

I do not have very definite opinions on many things, but I do have a very definite opinion on this, as far as folk music is concerned.

The question should be, does the audience prefer to see you stand or see you sit. IMHO if the instrument CAN be played in a standing position, then it SHOULD be played in a standing position.

Now, I accept that there are virtuoso guitar players like Doc Watson, Norman Blake, Tony McManus et al who always perform sitting down. I can only assume that that is because they feel ubable to play to their full potential standing up. There are other guitarists (Tony Rice, David Bromberg and Martin Simpson spring to mind ) who have no problem unleashing their virtuosity standing up, and I would assert that the impact on the audience is significantly greater when the performer stands.

Having said that, I doubt whether anyone has ever left a Doc Watson concert thinking, "Yeah , he's good, but if he'd only stood up to play ............."

Murray

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 05:43 PM

As long as you are standing, you ought to jump around a lot, too--nothing looks sillier than a bunch of guys just standing around, all hunched over, playing their guitars--especially bluegrass pickers, who tend to scrunch up their necks til they get about five extra chins--

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: kendall
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 07:37 PM

I suppose it's a matter of practice, but, there are two things I cant do standing up. Playing guitar is one.

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 07:41 PM

You could with practice kendall. And you could do the other too, again with practice.

Murray

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: kendall
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:21 PM

What? milk a cow standing up?

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: SeanM
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 01:28 AM

You just need a hole dug next to the cow.

Most of the thread is pretty much bearing out what I thought... thanks all... let the conversation resume...

M

Subject: RE: Music: The REAL stand/sit thread
From: alison
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 01:36 AM

my tone on any wind instrument is much better if I am standing..... more room to move the diaphragm I suppose....

so when I'm on stage I stand...... means you can dance better too.......

slainte

alison