BS: America: the World hates you

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Amos
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 09:12 PM

This thread is CONTINUED HERE.

Do not add to this section but click on the above link to make additional posts.

Thanks,

A.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Amos
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 09:05 PM

Okay, students, here's a test for your final grade in "Logical Thinking 101".

Examine the following propositions and determine whether they are logically consistent or not; if you argue they are not, identify the illogical issues or fallacies implied.

 1.  Americans do not have a clue about the world.
 2. The world is made up of the nations of the world.
 3. America is the strongest nation in the world.
 4. America is the richest nation in the world.
 5. America is not the most populous nation in the world.

Extra points will be given for brilliance.

Professor A.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: heric
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 03:08 PM

I have been away for several days, and just had the pleasure of reading this thread in one lump. For all the nonsense of a general rah-rah post, I would still like to mention briefly that I think it is wonderful to have this interactive reading resource, even if it is on the backs of the pure music devotees. You BS'rs on both sides of the peace/war equation (however you want it described) have given me a lot to think through in a way that is quite different from plowing through news and editorial sites, or dedicated political discussion sites. (Note also how the invective is almost absent in this thread.) I suppose there is something about the self-selection process that brings people to this site that has this beneficial side effect.

Thanks

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: DougR
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 01:43 PM

I agree, Kendall. Me too.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 08:27 AM

"Something had to be done" is the way that people doing terrible things always justify them. And the other thing they do is to point at the people they are against, saying "Look at them, don't look at me."

That's true whether they are terrorists in a cave or generals or politicians in offices or press conferences.

Another point though. People are focusing on whether the bombing of Afghanistan is just it is unjust and so forth. That matters of course, and things like using terrorist weaons like fragmentation bombs matter.

But there's another way of talking about right and wrong that isn't primarily about morality, it's about effectiveness. And it seems to me that many people, on bity sides in this argument, appear to be ignoring whether the bombing is a mistake or not.

There's a quote that fits here. It was a comment made at the time when Napoleon executed one of his opponents (the Duc D'Enghien as it happened)- "It is worse than a crime, it is a blunder.

And the two people I gave links to earlier, Sir Michael Howard, a well respected military historian, and Abdul Haq the recently executed enemy of the Taliban, both think that it is a bad mistake, and is going to make things far worse. They deserve to be read by anyone who thinks that the bombing is likely to achieve its objectives.

I suppose I could have posted the articles directly in this thread, but I assume that anyone who is seriously interested in these issues will be up to pushing the blue clicky. (And the Guardian archives are kept available longterm, unlike some other publications.)

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: sledge
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 08:00 AM

Well This particular foreign chap has no hatred for the US, I am looking forward to travelling over in 2 weeks time and being there to help celebrate Thanks giving, which will procbably be felt tohave more meaning this year than for quite a while.

Cheers

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 07:06 AM

Seems to me that it has all been said, so, I'm out of here. The thread is too long anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 11:14 PM

For those of you who seem to think that we are not justified in our response. I am no war monger how ever let's do a little tally. The US, which is evil according to some of you and should sit idly by while our homeland is attacked, has chosen not to do so. The good book says he who is with out sin casts the first stone. Whole lot of righteous people out there. On with the tally. Vietnam-We shouldn't have been there, see above. How about them going in to Cambodia and then getting their butts handed to them from China over a border dispute with them? Germany- Beautiful land wonderful people. I believe the justification for the series of bloodless annexations that led up to the second world war and the attck on Poland were justified by the persecution of Germanic minorities in Austria,Czeckoslovakia, the Saar. I won't get into the spasmodic vomit fest that resulted in World War one or the fact that Prussia goaded France in to a war that Prussia knoew that couldn't win in 1870 after having done the same to Austria Hungary a decade earlier or so. Afghanastan- We could have not armed the mujhadin and kept out of it and maybe we should have. Of course there is the small problem of a People's Republic... My point is No-one is immune from good or evil but I'd stack our record with anyone elses. We should act our age? Our age is 225 year old as nations go, sportsfans, that's still juvenile. This thread has become nothing but a bash fest and i will no longer participate in that. Good night and kindest regards to all. Neil

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:28 PM

Any way you cut it, we are in a hell of a mess.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 08:56 PM

Bleh. I've never been a big USA fan, myself. I'm just to poor to move away. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 07:33 PM

Fionn is off-base yet again. The Vietnam conflict was what it was largely because the U.S. was not pissed off. The fact that the military's hands were tied by rules of engagement that would make any military stategist cringe, and it recieved lukewarm support from politicians and the people makes for a whole different story. On a positive note, there is no denying that it was just one battle of the Cold War. The last time that I checked, we won the Cold War. Now, Fionn, go back and check our record against every nation against whom we have declared all out war or where there has been a 90 percent approval rating for military force.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 07:21 PM

Fion,

I am not sure what your point is--that no response by the US is appropriate other than your constructive points? You have some good points, it's true, but they don't really address the problem at hand--not that anything else does--

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 07:18 PM

Ken,

People all over the world:

1) Don't agree that Middle Easterners' behavior is out of the dark ages;

2) That Sept 11 is the most hideous attack in the history of civilization;

3) That bombing Afghanistan for revenge is acceptable on any level.

But I do understand that most Americans, who are quite myopic in this regard, share your sentiments and sadly lack the values shared by most other people in the world who oppose what we have chosen to do in response to the cowardly attacks on Sept 11th.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Ken Nielsen
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 06:56 PM

Disgruntled Middle Easterners call Americans arrogant - talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Their type of behavior is out of the dark ages. We need to strike and strike hard. After the most hideous attack in the history of civilization, Sept 11th, no one is going to deny us our revenge.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 06:07 PM

So Fionn, what happened to the millions of dollars the US gave Afghanistan last year before this ever happened? Was it appropriated by the Taliban and not used for "serious food aid"? Where did it go?

I already said a million times I don't know what the solution is. It's impossible to please everyone. If we fight, we piss people off. If we don't fight, we piss people off. Some of us piss people off just by being Americans.

Should we have waited longer to act, and given them the time they needed to pull another deadly stunt?

Whatever. I'm going home for the weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 04:25 PM

Fionn:

Sure, I agree with you. But I think it ought to be stressed that acts of wanton violence laid on a foreign land resulting in mass murder are different in qualityy and nature from the deaths of children for want of clean water supplies. America did not provide the water supplies of Uganda. The fact that we have managed with a lot of sweat to more or less manage our own does not make us the perpetrators of that offense.

To a certain degree it is in incumbent on local residents of an area to improve it to make life better, or at least sustainable. If they don't get organized enough to do that, they can walk over the mountains or suffer where they are. I don't see how expecting the US to fix the planet on all fronts is a solution.

If the "war" takes a lifetime it will not be the war in Afghanistan; it will be the "war against terrorism". Slavery, as has been pointed out, took a century to eradicate in the west. If terrorism as a practice is to be eradicated, much as piracy once almost was, it will take decades of extended program, not just a pissant bombing campaign.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 04:06 PM

So the countries that most pissed of America were Japan and Germany, says Little Sergeant - managing again to forget Vietnam, even after my gentle reminder. Looks like a serious case of selective memory.

Amos said: "it would end instantly if the Taliban offered to provide all participants of the Quesadilla up to a court of acceptable jurisprudence." Acceptable to who? Maybe Amos will agree with me on this at least: the world is crying out for an international court. some 60 countries have signed up to one so far, including the UK. But not America.

"SOMETHING had to be done," is the hand-wringing, spluttering, refrain from Kim C and several others - all the justification they need, for carpet-bombing the very people the US should be working with to bring Afghanistan into the community of nations.

Well to the John Waynes who lack the imagination to think of anything but brute force, I would suggest that building up intelligence, improving security wherever practical, and forging constructive alliances in Afghanistan with more than the murderous gangsters of the Northern Alliance would all be good moves. (Had the US gone in with serious food aid rather than packets of strawberry jam cynically strewn among the bombs, this would have been a realistic option.)

Creating the conditions for Afghan democracy might take a while, but then there are those who boast that the "war" will take a while - a lifetime, according to some. Would it not have made sense to build up a consensus coalition in Afghanistan, ready to fill the vacuum, before starting to take out the Taliban?

And what price the mindless dash for vengeance? Not least, it has meant befriending, all over again, that rogue state and known nuclear power, Pakistan - a state which is totally hostile to America's only other ally in the region, the Northern Alliance. Would it be equally OK to team up with North Korea, if that helped score points against bin Laden?

Yet anyone who questions the slaughter, and the turmoil that is now being stirred up, will be accused by DougR of not having lost a loved one in the WTC - as though the WTC is the only atrocity on the world's conscience. Maybe if DougR had lost a loved one among the 5,000 children who die every day for want of clean water supplies, he'd see the WTC atrocity in better perspective. I'd ask him to think seriously about that for a minute.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 03:21 PM

It sure seems like many of us want to START with the towers being destroyed. Thats not where it started folks.

The very first country to declare war on the USA was Tripoli, an Arab nation. A local boy, Commodore Preble, and Captain Steven DeCatur went over there with a couple of ships and pounded hell out of them. They quit.

Now, if we could get them all to gather in one place again...

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: DougR
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 03:13 PM

Well Francis, if that's what rings your bell, why not?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 03:12 PM

I have just started reading Mudcat. because I am interested in the music threads, and I tend to shy away from political threads on the theory that people only post to them, they don't really read them, but I can't help myself here, so please forgive me.

First thing is that terrorist acts are always futile gestures. Terrorists go for symbolic targets, because they have no hope of making tangible gains, and when their attacks are successful, it always unites their adversary, which makes them even stronger than before the attacks.

Second is that the American economy is stronger today than it has ever been, even the Communists like the benefits of a capitalist economy. Over the last fifty years, many large and powerful forces have tried to undercut it, to surpass it, to "bury it", and one by one, they've had to toss in their cards. Angry marchers, angry editorials, and even suicide bombers are just bugs on the windshield--

Third, because America is the strongest militarily and economically, the rest of the world pays more attention to America than America pays to the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Francis
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 03:00 PM

Yes, Germany is capitalistic, I think. But the USA are the symbol. UNCLE SAM DOES THE BEST HE CAN; YOU'RE IN THE ARMY NOW!!!

what do you think about *rage against the machine*?

.F.B.A.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 02:08 PM

Grab,

It has already been pointed out that the U.S. has backed many regimes who were not angels, however, they often represented the lesser of two evils. Evidently in your world, the ideal alternative to the Shah was rule by religious fanatics. Its just like the people who say that Desert Storm was merely support of a repressive Kuwaiti government. Well gosh, I guess it would have been so much better to let Saddam take charge. The last time that I checked, the Kuwait government wasn't gassing and starving its own people. Following your logic, we are brutes for supporting a South Korean government that is not the most democratic, so maybe we should just let the North Koreans run the show. Rice and water three meals a day anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,colwyn dane
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 01:14 PM

The following originally appeared in the 'New York Times' and was reprinted in the 'Sydney Morning Herald' last week.

By Thomas Friedman
So let me see if I've got this all straight now: Pakistan will allow us Americans to use its
bases on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays - provided we bomb only Taliban whose
names begin with Omar and who don't have cousins in the Pakistani secret service.

India is with us on Tuesdays and Fridays, provided it can shell Pakistani forces around
Kashmir all other days. Egypt is with us on Sundays, provided we don't tell anyone and
provided we never mention that we give the Egyptians $2 billion a year in aid. Yasser
Arafat is with us only after 10pm on weekdays, when Palestinians who have been
dancing in the streets over the World Trade Centre attack have gone to bed. The Northern
Alliance is with us, provided we buy all its troops new sandals and give US passports to
the first 1,000 to reach Kabul.

Israel is with us provided we never question the lunacy of 7,000 Israeli colonial settlers
living in the middle of a million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.

The Saudis, of course, want to be with us, but Saudis are not into war-fighting. That's for
the household help. The Saudi ruling family would love to co-operate by handing over its
police files on the 15 Saudis involved in the hijackings, but that would be a violation of
their sovereignty, and, well, you know how much the Saudis respect sovereignty - like
when their embassy in Washington rushed Osama bin Laden's relatives out of America
after September11 on a private Saudi jet, before they could be properly questioned by the
FBI.

And then there's my personal favourite: all our Arab-Muslim allies would love us to get
bin Laden quickly, but Ramadan is coming soon and the Muslim "street" will not tolerate
fighting during the holy month. Say, do you remember the 1973 Middle East war,
launched by Egypt and Syria against Israel? Remember what that war was called in the
Arab world? "The Ramadan War" - because that's when it was started. Oh, well. I guess
the Arab world can launch wars during Ramadan, but not receive them.

My fellow Americans, I hate to say this, but except for the good old Brits, we're all alone.
And at the end of the day, it's US and British troops who will have to go in, on the
ground, and eliminate bin Laden.

Unfortunately, killing up to 5,000 Americans in New York just doesn't get the rest of the
world that exercised. In part we're to blame. The unilateralist message the Bush team sent
from its first day in office - get rid of the Kyoto climate treaty, forget the biological
treaty, forget arms control, and if the world doesn't like it that's tough - has come back to
haunt us.

My advice: focus instead on the firemen who rushed into the trade centre towers without
asking, "How much?" Focus on the thousands of US reservists who have left their jobs
and families to go fight in Afghanistan without asking, "What's in it for me?" Unlike the
free-riders in our coalition, these young Americans know that September11 is our holy
day - the first day in a just war to preserve our free, multi-religious, democratic society.

And I don't really care if that war coincides with Ramadan, Christmas, Hanukkah or the
Buddha's birthday - the most respectful and spiritual thing we can do now is fight it until
justice is done.

The New York Times




bcnu, CD.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 01:05 PM

Hey, lets all dump on Dewey Bunnell?

We could take this idiocy to the highest illogical level; i.e. the horse with no name.

That oughta kickitupanotch.

Ohhhhh pop culture . . . you just gotta love it.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 01:01 PM

Germany isn't a capitalistic society?

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Grab
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 12:56 PM

IMHO, the world mostly wishes that America would "act its age". That the US government and a number of its citizens saw no hypocrisy in supporting supporting terrorists and oppressive regimes (Israel, Afghanistan, Iraq, the IRA, etc) whilst criticising, blockading or invading other countries (the US embargo on Cuba is so childish, it's almost funny), meant that the rest of the world has often seen America simply as the biggest bully in the playground. Might does not make it right.

George Bush said explicitly that his quarrel was not with the ordinary ppl of Afghanistan, but with al-Qaeda and its allies (ie. the Taleban). This is followed by carpet-bombing, which is by its nature indiscriminate and guaranteed to kill civilians. Arguments such as "the Taleban brought it on themselves" do not hold water - if the US wants to be the global policeman then it must itself behave ethically, and there's nothing ethical about carpet-bombing. Imagine if the UK had sorted the IRA by napalming all Republican areas of Northern Ireland after the bombings in Brighton or Manchester...

As a comment to "the little general", remember that Saddam Hussein and the Afghan Mujahaddein (sp?) were both backed by extensive US money, arms and training. Those were enormous successes, weren't they? Ditto, Israel's got serious US backing, and it's using tanks and airplanes against civilians armed with stones and rifles. The US just _loves_ Saudi Arabia, a country busily enforcing inhuman conditions on immigrants and women. And where the US has tried to prop up a morally-bankrupt regime, it's not done too much better - if the US _hadn't_ backed the Shah's regime, it wouldn't have had its embassy burned, its citizens tortured and killed, etc. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" has been comprehensively proven to be total crap.

Graham.

PS. Note that all comments above refer to "America" the political entity, not "America" as any individual citizens. I know many Americans are opposed to their government's actions, and I respect them for that.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,***.Francis.Be.Ardisson.*** (14, Germany)
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 12:51 PM

I must say, that I don't like the USA too. But *I* don't like their political point and their imperialism. capitalism will destroy us. But it's not okay to say that it's the whole world's opinion. And it's not okay to do what "they" have done. That's my point, but, perhaps, it's jjust because I love Che Guevara...

:-)

yours,

Francis.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 12:20 PM

All hail Steamboat Willie!!!!

I also forgot to mention, that first general, is also credited with saying, War means fightin, and fightin means killin.

One other question I have - when bin Laden says, Kill Americans, is he including the large Muslim population in this country? I'm just curious. They came here to get away from goombahs like him.

All right. I'm going to go play Secret Santa now. Hohoho. (toot!)

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 12:05 PM

I invite anyone to make a list of the major positive actons and the major harmful actions we have undertaken as a nation and see which side grows longer. Don't leave out Mickey Mouse, either -- in providing him and Minnie to the word the United States has offered the first completely gender-equal but asexual religion. Steamboat Willie is his prophet. Tooot!! Toot!! Let's tally up the dollars earned by sweat and ingenuity, siphoned into our tax stream and shiped out to those who could not or would not build their own lives. Let's not overlook such things as assembly lines, replaceable parts, the transistor and all its children, and better standards of plumbing. Let's include American wheat and the Berlin airlift. And let me add that the efforts we made, however misguided in result, to help the Afghans defend themselves against colonization by the USSR, were not without merit. They were perhaps badly executed and unintelligently managed. But nowhere near as unintelligently as the USSR's politics and economics.

Anyway I am really tired of this thread with its meaningless panic-mongering title. The emotional condition of those who gallop off in all directions crying fearful generalizations without specifics and without remedy is, to my mind, not one to try a discussion with.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 11:50 AM

One comment. Yes America (Meaning the UNited States as there are several other nations that comprise the American hemisphere0 has done some pretty despicable thing but and it is a major one that no-one has mentioned, we do try to make amends. Such as: rebuilding the nations we fight against IE Germany, Japan, Korea, we go out of our way to feed and cloth those in need after disasters and providing a refuge for the oppressed of the world. By the way, KimC, Canada gets those Cuban cigars because they don't have anal trade relations with Cuba. Neil

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: PeteBoom
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 11:31 AM

Right - Kim is quoting, well, paraphrasing, American generals. For all those opposed to American ideas, here's one from a British general:

The only thing more terrible to behold than a battlefield of a victory is a battlefield of a defeat.

Most folks like to point out that Yanks don't have a clue about the world. Many of them raise valid examples. I would also suggest that most people of the world don't have a clue about Yanks.

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not your enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle... Sun Tzu

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 11:25 AM

Hey guys.

We Americans beat on ourselves a lot harder than the rest of the world put together. It's one of our greatest strengths and our last saving grace.

We sure have done some bad things in the past. We supported some nasty people in S. America. We didn't understand Vietnam's drive for independence against the French and by the time we had half a clue we were embroiled in a nasty sidebar of the Cold War over there. But in fact we were busy countering the Soviet threat to the World all through the 40's, 50's, 60's, and 70's. A lot of these smaller incidents of American bombing around the world were related to dealing with the evil empire. And it WAS an evil empire.

Now we are engaged on a different related task. An attempt at creating an evil empire by hijacking a world religion. It is a noble attempt, and may succeed.

Think how brutal the rise of Christianity was over the ages. Crusades, ghettoizations, the 100 years war, the 30 years war, the holocaust. Christianity has been a decent religion for about 40 years now, give or take. Islam is 600 years its junior and never had an enlightenment to call its own.

The original poster and the immediate following messages took note of the fact that the world doesn't hate America. America itself is a composition of the world such as no other country has (with the possible exception of Israel). I guess the world could be allowed to hate itself, but only as a passing reality to a more mature realization that no one religion, race, creed, or culture has all the answers.

Have faith. We will eventually learn to live in peace with others after we have exhausted all other options.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 11:16 AM

Thanks, Whistle Stop.

What I fail to understand is why the Taliban places the life of Osama bin Laden over the lives of the entire population of Afghanistan. Is it just money? What is it? He's just a man. A Man, that's all.

I would be All For having him tried in a court of law. But they didn't want to do that. They had three weeks to talk and they didn't want to talk.

There was a famous Civil War general who used say to his opponents, here are my terms. You can surrender to my terms and be treated like gentlemen, or die. Those who didn't accept his terms found out the hard way that he wasn't foolin around. He didn't say, brother, let's sit down and hold hands and talk about why we're doing this. No. Accept the terms, or face the consequences.

In the words of another famous CW general, War is hell, boys.

Now. That being said... my personal quandary in all of this is... I don't hate anybody. I have never hated anyone in my whole entire life. Dislike? Sure. I try to stay away from people I don't like, and when I can't, I try to be polite. Once in awhile, I make a new friend. But I have never hated anyone, or wished pain upon anyone. It is simply something I Do Not Comprehend. It Does Not Register on my radar screen.

The other thing is, I believe in the balance of the universe. If there is going to be peace, there also has to be war. If there is going to be love, there also has to be hate. This is even in the Bible, y'all, and wasn't it Pete Seeger who wrote a song about it? So while I understand that all these things must happen, I have a hard time balancing them within myself, if that makes any sense. There needs to be an action on our part but I feel for the Afghan people. What do they call that? Cognitive dissonance?

I don't know I don't know I don't know

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:59 AM

WHistle:

Thanks. I think you put your finger on the issue. A sound alternative -- who has one? I have mentioned a number of tactics on the PR front which would make changes in the mind-set of fundy Islam, and I have been told I should hush, am being unrealistic. One was a unified PR campaign recruiting all the Islam women safe (more or less) in Western countries to inundate their sisters with photos and letters of their boys learning to be doctors, their daughters going to college, and their small safe homes with hot water and an SUV. I suspect this would start a ground swell where it matters. Another was to do everything possible to characterize the Quesadillans as a cult, with all the negative implications of that word. There were a few others I've forgotten.

On the military front, our biggest single failure is the abandonment of human intelligence in favor of electronic intelligence. We apparently felt perfectly fine about leaving Afghanistan a hotbed of potential disaster after the Russians left, left no networks of ground intelligence, cultivated no friends. I would bet that the number of Farsi speakers in Arlington today is about 50 times what it was two months ago and is still inadequate.

What we really need is a bomb that is smart enough to locate DNA in the world!! Then all we would need is some of bin L's toenails and we could work a major voodoo on that boy. (Kidding....)

Seriously, I feel that anyone who wishes to unleash carping generalized criticism would be honor bound to sugest alternative approaches.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:53 AM

Another fact is that both Japan and Germany represented genocidal regimes. The Japanese probably killed more civilians in the rape of Nanking than the U.S. has in its entire history. Another fact is that Japan and German were the last two nations to truly piss off the U.S. And it has now been over fifty years since they caused any trouble. A good lesson to keep in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:51 AM

Hear, hear, Whistle Stop!

I, also, have yet to hear "a suitable alternative" to "the present course of action". The Taliban knew how the US would respond to its attack and has rehearsed the resultant rhetoric well beforehand. Before anyone blindly repeats it, as the al Qaida and their children are trained to do, please stop and think.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:34 AM

Amos, as usual you are a voice of reason. I support the right of all those on this forum to argue against our current course of action. And I am not naive enough to think that ths US has never been wrong, or even now to think that everything we are doing is right. But we were attacked on a grand scale, and we must respond. From everything I hear and read, most Americans support our current efforts against al-Qaeda and the Taliban; I certainly do, even though I am very conscious of the dangers inherent in the current situation.

Unfortunately, war is not a surgical procedure. Advancing technology and increased tactical sophistication can make it more so, but only to a point. I believe that the US government is trying very hard to avoid killing innocents, for both moral and strategic reasons. But in wars people get killed, and it would be foolish to think that anyone can eliminate that dynamic entirely. Those who brought this war to our doorstep really have no right to complain about that; the 5,000 plus who were killed on September 11th were innocent, too.

As I have noticed many times, those who criticize the US in this forum for pursuing the present course of action (not for specific tactical decisions, but for the general effort) still have not come up with a suitable alternative. Yes, we should examine our actions and policies worldwide, and be prepared to make adjustments where they are warranted. Yes, we should review our intelligence and security practices, and correct any failings we uncover. But we also have to respond vigorously against those who struck the first blow, bring them to justice (or bring justice to them, as our President said), and do all that we can to prevent a repetition of this. No country attacked in this fashion which had the capability to respond would fail to do so; nor should we.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:32 AM

The causes of ww 2 can be traced to two places. Germany and Japan. At the time of ww1, the Czar of Russia, the Queen of England, and Kaiser Wilhelm were all related. England had the strongest navy in the world, and the Kaiser was jealous. The Czar didn't have a clue what was going on, and it all came to a head in Sarejevo with the murder of Arch Duke Ferdinand. On that side of the pond, it started as a family squabble.I have bigger ships than you do, yah yah yah! Germany was defeated, and humiliated by the Treaty of Versailles. Hitler came along and promised them what they needed to hear. He did not want to go to war with the USA, but, his ally, Japan did, and he had to go along. In the miiddle of the 19th century, we sent envoys to Japan to force them to open their doors to trade. They did not want to come out of their feudal past, but we forced it on them. In the 30's they began to expand because they live on a rock with no natural resources. They invaded China, they occupied many islands in the South Pacific, Korea, Southeast Asia, and we ordered them to pull out! (We had done the same thing in the early 1900's but, thats different. They told us to bugger off, so, FDR froze their assets, and cut off all shipments to Japan. Just as General Mitchell had predicted in 1928? they hit us at Pearl Harbor. Saving face was more important to them than living. As the Irish say, "I'd rather die on my feet than to live on my knees." Do what you will with this, those are the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:08 AM

Shad,

Good insightful comments. I think that much of it (the criticism of the U.S. in WWII) is simply revisionist history crafted to suit a particular agenda. When people (whether it be a radical third world editorial rant or the self-righteous pontification of some on this board) have to resort to dredging up U.S. military strategy in WWII it indicates that they just don;t have much of a logical leg to stand on.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:05 AM

Guest Anonymous,

Your characterization of my position is very unflattering, but also is fortunately completely fictitious. Viokence is a confession of failure in the worst degree. But when violence comes to your doorstep, leaves your people dead, and threatens to overthrow your state, it is naive not to expect humans to engage. The notion that this is a sop to rage is jejeune.

That said, I am completely in agreement that a big muscle display of bombing is probably not the effective strategy. If you read my often confused and upset posts from September, I have said over and over that the organization that launched these attacks need to be rooted out with ground intelligence and made powerless through surgical PR operations, not bunker busters. Special Ops where necessary on known targets. Using Normandy's tactics to address Al Quesadilla is not going to advance the legitimate purposes of the semicoalition. Partly this is occurring because we have transferred our hostility to the Taliban itself, as an extension of the terrorist network it sheltered.

I agree with both of you that violence tends to beget violence, but I do think it is possible that things can get better. War has an end state. It ends when the enemy's frame of mind has become amenable (Klausewitz).

In this case it would end instantly if the Taliban offered to provide all participants of the Quesadilla up to a court of acceptable jurisprudence and provide any intelligence it could about the extent of the network's associations. I am sure there are a small handfull of senior members who could make a meaningful offer along those lines.

Failing that, it will end (at least insofar as Afghanistan is concerned) when the Taliban can't support itself as the governing body and an Afghan coalition of representatives takes over.

A.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: SDShad
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 09:57 AM

Quick sidebar to the whole "the entire world hates America" bit, which is, at best an exaggeration and at worst a deliberate and knowing lie (not, on the other hand, that there's no one in the world with a legitimate reason to resent us, not by a long shot):

When, exactly, did it become New Left canon to believe and insist that the United States was wrong to fight in World War II? I've seen this trotted out several times in the last two months on Mudcat, but even before that in other online fora, books, articles, etc.

In the years immediately leading into and after the war, you'd be hard pressed to find significant numbers on the American political left who thought that fight was wrong. (Sidebar within a sidebar: yes, I know that there were anti-war people at the time, too, few as they were, and I don't have a problem with that, though I disagree with a great deal of their reasoning. I do have to respect the courage of their convictions, and I think the world would probably be a whole lot better off with a whole lot more ethical, principled pacifists, be they Mennonite, Quaker, Buddhist, or atheist.) For a broad panoply of reasons, pretty much anybody on the American left, from the most milquetoast-liberalish-Hubie-Humphrey centrist to the Reddest of Bolsheviks agreed that this was a good fight, especially the fight against Fascism. Remember the Abraham Lincoln Brigade? Remember that American communists, of whom many who were still foolishly looking to Stalin for inspiration, would have been well aware that in Russia, this was The Great Patriotic War?

I was trying to explain this phenomenon to my mother, from whom--along with my father who is both more liberal and more conservative than her, depending on the issue--I learned many of my liberal/progressive/populist/antiracist principles, bless her heart. Her response was "I didn't know that it had," and she, not having been aware of it before, felt it must just be a tiny minority fringe of the left that feels that way. I tried to explain to her that it might be more widespread on our side of the political spectrum than she was willing to believe, but she wasn't buying. This is a woman who grew up under the shadow of World War II, and has probably been opposed to every war we've been involved in since then. But she supports the current military effort--she hates to see our country killing anyone, but as with Pearl Harbor doesn't see that we have any choice but to respond.

And I agree with her, even though it's with sadness and trepidation, not with rah-rah flagwaving, and even though I grieve for the innocent dead of Afghanistan, just as I would have for the innocent dead of both Germany and Japan, and do grieve for the innocent dead of both Israel and Palestine. But that's not the issue I'm trying to raise with this post, it's the World War II thing. I've always thought our role on the Left was to oppose the wrong, not just to be reflexively anti-American (and it's worth noting that the Trotskyite World Socialist Website calls anti-Americanism "the anti-imperialism of fools"). Silly me.

Shad

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Hank Williams Jr.
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 09:56 AM

Nice Pushtoo prayer. Here is a nice pissed off redneck prayer: "Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil 'cause I'm the meanest son-of-a-bitch in the valley." Sorry folks, but Uncle Sam is whipping up a nice big shit sandwich and a lot of people are going to have to take a bite. If they don't then look for Israel to increase its territory by about tenfold by default.

See you in Kabul, then Damascus, then Tripoli....

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Kim C
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 09:53 AM

Everybody complains about the war, but nobody does anything about it.

Many of you are quite vocal in your distaste for the current situation. Fine. Do you have any feasible solutions to offer?

Forgiveness is a good thing, yes indeed. I won't argue that. But is there not a point at which you have to say, if I look the other way on this, it's going to happen again, and more people will get hurt?

I don't know what the answer is. Do any of you?

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 09:42 AM

Guest,

I could point out that in many cases, the regimes supported by the U.S. are not very pretty, but are often the lesser of two evils compared to their opposition. For example, the Shah was not a very nice guy, but was two decades of rule by fanatics an improvement? However, in way of refuting most of your comments, i will simply make the observation that you would probably have been a big fan of Neville Chamberlain in 1938.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 09:39 AM

Guest, no, I have not been in any such country, but, I know they exist, and I strongly dis approve of what my country does.Your observations are right on.Bush is having a "Wargasm" I dont like it, or him. Violence begets violence, and it can only get worse.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 09:26 AM

I think most Americans view anti-American sentiment abroad as "biting the hand that feeds them", whether that opinion has any basis in truth or not.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 09:24 AM

Kendall,

Have you ever travelled to countries where there is an oppressive US military presence? Where US foreign policy is propping up brutal dictators and bloody regimes, to protect our "national interests"? *That* is the "Ugly American" syndrome I'm talking about.

As to the World Press Review, DougR--it is a monthly magazine which prints excerpts from major daily papers around the world--it tries to be a barometer of sorts for US foreign policy, and US links to the international communities around the world. In other words, most reasonable people would consider it to be a review of "the opinions that matter"--not just any ole opinion being espoused by American fanatics in Internet discussion forums.

And Amos, Little General, et al you folks who believe more violence, destruction, and killing is the *only* way for Americans to live in this world, all I can say is your minds must be so paralyzed by your fears, that the only solution you can think of as "reasonable" is one which is pushing the entire planet to the brink of world war, nuclear attacks, chemical and biological terrorism as the order of the day, etc etc etc.

It is ONLY a quick fix for your rage. None of what the US is doing right now is going to improve the safety and security of Americans in the US or abroad. Nothing. As many much more wise than any of us have noted since the bombing began, it is exacerbating the situation, and causing negative attitudes towards the US to harden even more.

What kind of world is that to live in? Totally isolated and alienated from the rest of the world--a virtual pariah in the international community. Except among those we can manage to bully and threaten and intimidate into agreeing with us, even if it is only for a few weeks or months. I don't want to live in that kind of world. I would much rather just take the hit, readjust and change the attitudes and values Americans share which put us where we are today--as the most arrogant superpower pariah in the history of the civilized world. THAT may take many years, but at least it would be work in a positive direction--a reaching out to the international community, rather than playing out this sick, twisted, lone ranger scenario.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 09:08 AM

I've done considerable travel, not in the military, and I have seen too many "Ugly Americans". The thing is, most of the Americans who travel, are those who have money, and, too often, that type has no manners,or consideration for anyone but themselves. I have been asked what part of the USA I am from, and when I tell them, they say something like, "You dont act like an American." I take that as a compliment.

Just for the record, I have seen people from other countries being just as boorish as any American. For example, in Jamaica, 5 young men from England, drunk, obnoxious, insisting the bus driver stop so they could get more booze, calling him and other natives "Spooks". So, why do we get the heat? because we are more visible, and much of the world owes its prosperity to us.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 09:00 AM

Fionn does a pretty good job of supporting my point. A lot of people would like to think that Americans are quaking with fear and live in daily dread of having their water supply poisined. That's just not the case. It is another example of the same type of gross generalization in the statement that the world hates America. As far as some of the so-called American atrocities described in various posts, they pretty much helped to stop the world from being ruled by Nazis or Japanese imperialists. They also stoped South Korea from being conquered by North Korea (would any of you like to be living in N. Korea right now) and played a role in winning the Cold War. If you think that the U.S. is as remotely bad as any of these scenarios, then you are even more delusional than I already think. It is simply proof that many critics are much more ignorant and predjudice than they claim Americans to be.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 08:51 AM

Its a beautiful looking language to me too--like Chinese is.

Thanks other guest.