BS: Japanese double standards?

Subject: Japanese double standards?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 08:02 PM

On February 9, 2001, the Japanese Fisheries High School Training Vessel EHIME MARU was struck by the submarine USS GREENEVILLE (SSN 772)approximately 9 nautical miles south of Diamond Head on the island of Oahu, Hawaii. The EHIME MARU sank in approximately 2,000 feet of water.

This tragedy made headlines all over the world.

The US Navy are now approaching the end of a hazardous and expensive operation to lift the ship to shallower waters where divers will attempt to reclaim the bodies of nine missing crew members.

On July 29 1938, the Pan American Trans-Pacific flying boat "Hawaii Clipper" was hi-jacked in flight by Japanese navy officers and diverted to the Imperial Japanese Navy's Fourth Fleet naval base, at Truk Atoll. There, her fifteen passengers and crew were murdered and entombed, reportedly face down, within the poured-concrete foundation slab of the infamous naval hospital, being built on Unimakur Mountain, at Dublon Island, overlooking the fleet's Eten Anchorage.

To my knowledge there has never been any acknowledgment by the Japanese government of their complicity in this atrocity. The nine crew members and six passengers still lie in their concrete tomb to this day.

Wouldn't it be just peachy if, after the grieving Japanese families have had the bodies of their loved ones returned to them, the Japanese government said , "OK, your turn now" ? Somehow I don't see it happening.

Check out Hawaii Clipper Website

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 08:10 PM

I wonder how our Japanese members will enjoy seeing this.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 08:20 PM

The purpose of the post was not to provide enjoyment it was to stimulate thought.

I fully realize that that is shooting for the moon in some cases.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 08:32 PM

What precisely is your 'objection' if I can call it that, Susan?

Sorry, but I dunno what precisely that you are referring to.

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 09:23 PM

well, it was a very different bunch of Japanese who did that heinous crime, just as WE are a bit different from the bunch who interred Japanese-Americans in prison camps during the war....you have to stop re-living it sometime

(me, I don't NEED remains to honor my ancestors, and I never did see why people spend inordinate amounts of money to recover bits of bone...etc...but, I don't understand a lot of things)

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: DougR
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 09:57 PM

Murray: Interesting question. I didn't even know about this happening. I bookmarked it, and would like to read more about it before replying to your question. On the surface, though, I kind of side with Bill D. That was a long time ago, different generation, different time, etc. I'm not sure it can be equated to what is happening in Hawaiian waters now. I noted today in the newspaper that all but one body has been recovered, and they have given up on trying to recover it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 10:55 PM

Mmm, I don't think I can agree with either Bill or Doug on this. I don't think any Government can abnegate responsibility for the misdeeds of the previous incumbents.

For example, I am quite sure that if pressed, Tony Blair would admit to wishing wholeheartedly that previous administrations had followed a different policy in Northern Ireland. And in India/Pakistan and Palestine as well, for that matter.

Similarly, as a British citizen, I think that if I am entitled to feel pride in the past glories and achievements of my country, I am also obligated to feel a sense of shame at some of the less glorious episodes.

I mean, you guys are proud of your Constitution and your Bill of Rights, right? But Wounded Knee and Selma? It's the same in every country.

All I am saying is that governments (and citizens) should face the past, atone if possible, but not try to pretend certain things didn't happen.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: SeanM
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 12:21 AM

Tragic pose

Yes, I admit it. My ancestor Ogg, some 18 billion years ago, in the form of an amoeba, ate another amoeba (rumored also to be named Ogg). I feel deep and profound shame over this issue, but also since said amoeba was part of the eventual line that also produced Tony Blair, and the victim was also part of my lineage, I demand immediate reparations in the amount of the entire UK GNP for the next two decades.

Where does it stop?

M

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 12:35 AM

I see no reason to dredge up the past and compare it to now. We are different people than then, with different consciousness (plural) and much more knowledge of one another's cultures, etc. I see no comparison and no such supposedly double standard. It'd be like judging the current president by the previous actions of a president of almost 60 years ago.

To our Japanese Mudcatters: please know that your contributions are deeply appreciated and I hope that you will continue to be vital participants in our community.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 02:56 AM

I agree with your eloquent words Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: SeanM
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 06:24 AM

I suppose rather than just casually dismissing this, I should explain my view...

Murray's point about being 'proud' of the US, the Bill of Rights, or the Constitution just doesn't ring true with me. In my mind, 'pride' is something you have in something YOU have had a hand in. I no more feel a need to be 'proud' of my country or what any of my forebearers did than I felt a need to be 'proud' of the Arizona Diamondbacks for winning the world series. Don't get me wrong - they're all great accomplishments (some moreso than others). But I didn't do 'em. I had no hand in 'em. More than that, nothing I can do, say or think will change the fact that they are.

This is why I can't get riled up over what was done several generations ago. I appreciate civil rights advances made painfully by many men and women quite possibly better than myself. I don't feel 'proud' of it, though. I DO feel a desire to be a good person, to RESPECT what has happened before me, and to attempt to live to the better ideals of these events and people.

So I don't feel guilt or shame over Japanese internment, racial segregation, AmerInd genocide, or anything else. There is nothing - not a damned thing that I can do to prevent these and other similar events from happening. Guilt is a useless response to these horrific actions. Simply giving money to people directly affected by these events and hoping they go away is perhaps even worse.

What do I feel? A desire to do what I can to stop them from happening again. A wish that I and my fellow humans would stop doing the same stupid shit to each other over and over and over again. All that I feel will help is by simply treating everyone with human dignity, and trying to ensure that whatever caused the stupid brutal side of humanity to rise doesn't happen again with me.

But no. I don't feel shame for actions I can have had no possible connection to. I don't feel pride for the same. I feel saddened by the former, and respect the latter. But I save pride and shame for my own accomplishments, for my own beliefs, and for my own life.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 07:25 AM

" No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main."

John Donne, "For Whom the Bell Tolls"

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 08:09 AM

Sean, that was well said, and I agree absolutely.

The Japanese empire of the 1930s and early 1940s was quite a different place from the current nation of Japan, inhabited by different people, in a very different world. I don't excuse its many crimes, any more than I excuse past crimes committed by any country, including my own (USA). But beyond satisfying a certain historical curiosity, I don't see the value in raising this issue as some sort of corollary to the Ehime Maru tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 11:33 AM

There is nothing - not a damned thing that I can do to prevent these and other similar events from happening.

About the Past I absolutly agree about the future.... You live in a democracy, you can keep yourself oinformed, you can speak out, you can vote. If it still happens you can say that you tried.

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: DougR
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 11:42 AM

Murray: I don't believe anyone said that the "wrongs" you pointed out, were "right." As others have pointed out, however, this generation is responsible for what happens now, and in the future.

At the time those "wrongs" were committed they were not considered to be "wrongs."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 12:51 PM

I do not ever suggest that the past wrongs should be whitewashed and forgotten, for this is how we grow & learn. I am sad that atrocities or tradgies, of ANY degree, by ANY group happened, and there are circumstances where acknowleging them, and in certain cases, helping with overcoming them, and/or paying reparations is appropriate.

The Japanese waited too long to discuss what happened in China & Korea, we waited too long to deal with the interrment question, the Germans waited too long to thoroughly disavow the Nazis...etc...MANY cultures can't seem to face their past until a couple of generations have passed.....and then those who had no part in the original event are supposed to engage in mea culpas forever? *sigh*

It is a fine line to walk, and because this boat tragedy is recent, I am not opposed to the recovery help...but neither would I expect the Japanese to tear up their hospital to 'return remains'....should there be some acknowlegment of the incident? Yeah, that would be nice.

I am all too aware that certain national/cultural groups have very different ways of internalizing guilt and difficulties in admitting it...and I have NO idea how to force them to change suddenly. I guess I am just in favor of not making too big as issue of ALL old sore spots...there are just too many...on all sides!...

I 'hope' the issue will be dealt with,,,I can't see demanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: GUEST,Leila
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 02:48 PM

Remember the past. Learn from the past. Do not repeat the past. Dream about the future. Plan for the future.

Live in the present.

I cannot be held responsible for things that happened before I was born. I cannot be held responsible for things I have absolutley no control over. I CAN be held responsible for not learning from previous generations mistakes.

I can't change the past, but I can effect and affect my present. Fix now, you can't fix the past.

Peace, Leila

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: Larry124
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 03:02 PM

Were the Japanese of that time not "punished"? Their payment for that act and the many others like it was collected at Hiroshima.

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: GUEST,Tojo
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 03:10 PM

Please note that Japan has been VERY well-behaved for the last 55 years largely because the U.S. was willing to take extreme measures. History is instructional....

Subject: RE: BS: Japanese double standards?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 03:12 PM

Sean, a fine exposition on "pride" - entirely sums up my own concerns with the circumstances in which some people exude it. For my own part I'm not even sure whether it's OK to be proud of my daughter. To me it implies she's an extension of me, rather than her own person.

In the heat of the moment (1942) Churchill was saying that retribution for the ghastly crimes of the Axis powers should be one of the main aims of the war. By the time of the Nuremburg show trials, he had backed off that a bit, and by 1948 he was saying that reconciliation had to be the main goal. If he could have that view of the war in 1948, surely we can manage as much in 2001.

And I can't see what that John Donne line has got to do with it. I think it's more pertinent that Santayana said he who ignores history is destined to repeat it. If only for that reason, I appreciate you bringing the Japanese incident to my awareness. But let's move on.

(Churchill of course, famously changed his mind on several occasions. But then he always said he'd rather be right than consistent.)