BS: America, UK and the world

Subject: America, UK and the world
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 06:05 AM

So Kabul is over-run by sn army of brutal gangsters who don't speak the language. And a neighbouring nuclear power, Pakistan (which went from rogue state to best friend in about a day), is destabilised as a result.

Well done, Bush. Well done Blair.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 08:01 AM

Aw, c'mon Fionn, we've done a grand job.
We've replaced their load of murdering cut-throats with our bunch of murdering cut-throats.
And, as a result, I'm sure we'll all sleep a lot easier in our beds.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: Amos
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 09:05 AM

On the city outskirts, women forced into virtually total seclusion under Taliban rule waved excitedly to foreigners. Hundreds of people celebrated in the streets. At least one child flew a kite, an act also banned under the Taliban.

Maybe its not as grim as all that....

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: Amos
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 09:11 AM

As for the Taliban's own special brand of Doublespeak, their military commander provides the following:

Mullah Omar's last message to his commanders, delivered through the Taliban intelligence service on Sunday night, as saying: "Defeat and retreat are tests from God, but the mujahid does not fail these tests. Our strength lies in ground warfare, which will be better manifested if we leave the cities and take to the mountains.

"OK, boys...I need volunteers. Men who are tough and ready. Men who are up to the awesome challenge of surrendering. If you aren't big enough to lose, don't bother volunteering -- if you can't handle defeat, stay out of the shoe store!"

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: Amos
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 09:12 AM

This morning, hundreds of Kabul residents raised their fists and chanted, "Long live America" and "long live Massoud," referring to Ahmed Shah Massoud, the slain Northern Alliance leader. Many of them streamed out of the city to meet Northern Alliance forces, while men threw away their turbans and cut their beards.

Nusrat, a 21-year-old Kabul resident, said, "All of the people are happy because they are free. All of the people are congratulating each other."

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 10:28 AM

We've replaced their load of murdering cut-throats with our bunch of murdering cut-throats.

When you're dealing with a country where everyone - or at least everyone with any real chance at power - is a murdering cutthroat, that's a real solid accomplishment, and the best you could hope for.

I wish it were otherwise, but it ain't. The same was true in Vietnam, the only difference was that in Vietnam we had the option of ignoring the whole thing, and here we don't.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 11:13 AM

How can they not speak "the" language?

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: GUEST,Wesley
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 11:21 AM

So - Fionn - What is your solution ? What would make it all better in your eyes ??

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 11:29 AM

Well, Wesley, I consider that a pretty good question.

Fionn?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: Nansaidh
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 11:47 AM

Im so sick of you using the Mudcat for your brand of Anti-American bashing Fionn. May I remind you this IS a "Music" site. Do you even PLAY an instrument or sing or even LISTEN to music?

Perhaps you should take your brand of hate and bashing to a forum that would appreciate it. I for one am throughly disgusted with some of the threads you have started here. Can we please get back to the music?

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: Fortunato
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 11:49 AM

What I read is that women were broadcasting the news (No longer confined to their homes) and music was playing on the radio, which had previously been banned. I don't read or hear of raping and pillaging. I hear people are shouting of freedom and dancing to radios in the street. Sound familiar to you? Perhaps Fionn is not old enough to remember. But the thousands of Italians who carried American Flags in Rome a few days ago remember what liberation sounds like. And they remember who fought and died to make it possible.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 01:23 PM

I'm an American, and I'm with Fionn 100%.

God, you people really do believe our government's propaganda--can't even accept the fact that our government is the number one producer of propaganda in the world, and that you are only reading what the government wants you to read.

For your information folks, the so-called Alliance forces have, according to MSNBC's latest information, already divided the city of Kabul, which they have taken in the last 24 hours despite the US/British command telling them not to.

UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Mary Robinson, was reported in this morning's Irish Times (about the Alliance taking over Kabul) as saying it was "a dark time" for human rights in Afghanistan.

Freedom for the Afghan people my ass, I sez.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 01:25 PM

"We've replaced their load of murdering cut-throats with our bunch of murdering cut-throats."

Their murdering cutthroats have taken food *away* from their own people while we airlift it in to them. Their murdering cutthroats have taken women out of their PHd jobs and thrown them into a state not fit for a pet...they are treated as subhuman. Their murdering cutthroats have oppressed their own people for decades, and have harbored people who would kill *every single American* for the crime simply of *being* American.

As I tell my daughter, and her teachers...I do see a difference in offense and defense. If someone is hitting my daughter, I have given her permission to defend herself, and will do everything I can within the law to see to it that it does not happen again (this to include calling the police and reporting it as an assault if I believe it warranted).

Maybe war is not pretty, but it is not the same thing as terrorism and oppression. To defend oneself is not the same thing as to throw the first blow.

I think the really telling thing will only come when the oppression of the Taliban is finally overthrown, and the people (most especially the women) of Afghanistan finally have the right to decide for themselves how they want to live.

Finally, *why* is it that, when oppression happens to women under the guise of religion it is tolerated and left alone, but if the same thing were happening to a minority anywhere else, the world cries "FOUL!"? It is a sad thing that the only way these women might be able to gain their freedom is through some other completely unrelated issue.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: GUEST,Captain America
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 01:28 PM

Well said everyone (except Fionn) in terms of news coverage of peoples reaction to the liberating forces. But, I have no illusions whatsoever that the Northern Alliance forces are knights on white horses. In fact i think that it is safe to assume that their regime will be less than a democratic paradise. However, I am equally confident that it will be far better for the people than life under the Taliban, and it will be a long time (if ever) before Afghanistan is used as a base of terrorist operations against the U.S. Fionn will just have to learn to live with the fact that the good guys (us) are prevailing. If he/she doesn't then he/she should start arguing the point with the Afghan women who have been transformed from beggars back to practicing law, medicine, etc. overnight.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: Hollowfox
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 01:48 PM

Actually, Captain America, a lot of those medieval knights on white horses were also murdering cut-throats. *g* The US military choices of this past month are not the ones I thought best, and things will continue to be a miserable mess in that region for a long time to come, I think. If I knew how to improve this, I'd do it.
The bit I found interesting on the news was the men shaving their beards. A person can deny that they were singing, can put a turban back on, can get rid of a kite. But growing a beard back takes time, so I'd think that the men who shaved them off are betting that the Taliban won't be coming back into power any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: GUEST,Captain America
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 02:03 PM

Hollowfox,

I think the significance of recent developments is that it will be somewhat less of a miserable mess in Afghanistan in the future than it has been recently. As for U.S. policy and actions, they may not have been the best, but we have been trying to make the best of a shitty situation. The alternatives could easily have been far more civilian casualties as well as actual U.S. combat casualties. I would give us a solid B at this point.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: Fortunato
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 02:17 PM

Well, Guest, if you don't like the US News, try the other News agencies, BBC or CBC. You do trust the Canadians don't you? Or are they busy brainwashing you, too? Those tricky Canadians, making up all those pictures and stories dancing in the streets and celebrating, women walking about, free, music playing. Bull Shit.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: Larry124
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 02:37 PM

USA "policy" is determined by debate, consensus, compromise, and elections.

"Having a problem" with a policy entitles one to participate in the debate. Your opinion may prevail, or may not, according to the "agreed-upon" facts and the effectiveness of your argument.

The murder of 5000 civilians from 80 countries disqualifies one from participation in the debate. Ditto dancing in the streets in support of the murderers.

The problem is NOT a first world lack of understanding of third world concerns. And, endless repetition of that particular argument is futile and counterproductive, since it is not only condescending and tiresome, but raises questions about the intelligence or honesty of the complainer.

The third world must understand the consequences of anti-American violence. Increasingly, it's a life or death choice.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 05:12 PM

Sorry people - I dived in too soon. I wish I'd just held my breath, because it's beginning to look like there's the prospect of a positive outcome. Better in fact than I ever foresaw when the first bombs were dropped. Who knows, maybe bin Laden will now be run to ground, and the people can now be fed this winter.

But I don't think anyone can be sanguine on the strength of early cheering for the Alliance. The whole thing could still go either way. Like I said, I should just hold my breath.

To the anonymous guest: your support means nothing to me without a name on it - but maybe you just forgot to put something in the "from" box.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 08:23 PM

No, I didn't forget to fill in the blank. You didn't have my support, you had my agreement.

There is a possibility that things could turn out well with the fall of the Taliban, but I'm with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights as to what the future under the Northern Alliance leaders holds. Which is certainly not freedom for Afghanistan.

Let us all hope that international peacekeeping force is in place very, very, very soon. And that the US and Britain will now bring in humanitarian relief to northern Afghanistan which truly will save lives and make a difference to the people who need it most, and not just use food as another weapon of war.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 08:34 PM

GUEST penned: "There is a possibility that things could turn out well with the fall of the Taliban, but I'm with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights as to what the future under the Northern Alliance leaders holds. Which is certainly not freedom for Afghanistan."

Are you aware, Guest, that the UN committee on human rights has the Sudan as a contributing member? One of the worst human rights violators in the world currently?

For me, I need the UN to quit the hypocrisy before I am going to be able to take them seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 09:15 PM

OK Celtic Soul, dismiss the work of the UN if you wish. But there is still the well documented record of human rights abuses by the Northern Alliance/ United Front

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 09:19 PM

Here is Amnesty International's response to the Northern Alliance moving into Kabul today:

Afghanistan: Risk of reprisals November 13, 2001

The civilian population of Afghanistan has again been put at risk by the failure of the international community to protect them, Amnesty International said today as the Northern Alliance reached Kabul and reports were received of the execution of captured fighters.

"The rapid advance of the Northern Alliance into Kabul without any international arrangements to safeguard civilians is a clear indication that the military agenda has overtaken human rights concerns", Irene Khan, Secretary General of Amnesty International said.

"The Afghan population is at the mercy of armed political groups with an appalling human rights record. We have the gravest concerns for the people of Kabul who are now at high risk of reprisal attacks and killings."

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 09:24 PM

And this recent report from Human Rights Watch:

Afghanistan: Poor Rights Record of Opposition Commanders (New York, October 6, 2001) - A number of commanders associated with the emerging coalition of opposition forces in Afghanistan have a record of serious human rights abuse, Human Rights Watch said in a backgrounder released today. "The U.S. and its allies should not cooperate with commanders whose record of brutality raises questions about their legitimacy inside Afghanistan," said Sidney Jones, executive director of the Asia division of Human Rights Watch. "Any country that gives assistance to the Afghan opposition must take responsibility for how this assistance is used."

Human Rights Watch urged in particular that no cooperation be extended to Abdul Rashid Dostum, the head of the Junbish militia; Haji Muhammad Muhaqqiq, a senior commander of Hizb-i Wahdat; Abdul Rasul Sayyaf, leader of the erstwhile Ittihad-i Islami; and Abdul Malik Pahlawan, a former senior Junbish commander.

Abuses that were reported from an area controlled by a United Front faction in late 1999 and early 2000 include summary executions, burning of houses, and looting, principally targeting ethnic Pashtuns and others suspected of supporting the Taliban. Children, including those under the age of fifteen, have been recruited by both the United Front and Taliban.

The various parties that comprise the United Front also amassed a deplorable record of attacks on civilians between the fall of the Najibullah regime in 1992 and the Taliban's capture of Kabul in 1996.

"Not a single Afghan commander has been held accountable for human rights abuses," said Jones. "The time to break this cycle of impunity is now, and the United States and its allies will have the leverage to do it."

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 09:41 PM

If everyone is so concerned about the plight of women in Afghanistan, why no women in leadership positions among the Northern Alliance/United Front?

From Physicians for Human Rights:

BULLETIN #2 - October 23, 2001 Bulletin #1 Bulletin #3 PHR Afghanistan Report

MEDICAL GROUP CALLS ON CONFERENCE FOR PEACE AND UNITY IN AFGHANISTAN TO INCLUDE WOMEN AND REPRESENTATIVES FROM ALL POLITICAL AND ETHNIC GROUPS IN TRANSITION GOVERNMENT AND TO AFFIRM SUPPORT FOR WOMEN'S HUMAN RIGHTS

Islamabad, Pakistan -- Citing its findings that more than 90% of Afghan women and men recently interviewed in Afghanistan support women's participation in government, Physicians for Human Rights (PHR) called on the ongoing Conference for Peace and Unity in Afghanistan (CPUA) -as well as participants in the upcoming Loya Jirga, or grand council-to include women in the transition process and insure that members from each of Afghanistan's many ethnic groups are represented. The current composition of the CPUA does not include women or representatives from the numerous ethnic groups. Furthermore, as it works to design and implement a transition government for Afghanistan, the CPUA should formally affirm its support for the protection and promotion of women's human rights in Afghanistan.

The vast majority of women and men interviewed by PHR expressed the view that women's human rights are essential to the health and development of the Afghan people.

"Any body, government or party currently working to create a transition government for Afghanistan must respect the right of all Afghans, especially Afghan women, to be a part of this process," Dr. Lynn Amowitz, PHR's Fireman Fellow and member of the Faculty at Harvard Medical School, said today in Islamabad. "Failure to enfranchise women as equal participants in the Conference will only continue the cycle of discrimination and institutional inequity that Afghan women have suffered for too long."

Physicians for Human Rights (PHR) is the only human rights organization to have extensively surveyed Afghan women and men themselves about their views on human rights. PHR recently published Women's Health and Human Rights in Afghanistan: A Population-Based Assessment (available in full on-line at www.phrusa.org) a study conducted last year of the opinions and attitudes of Afghan women and men in both Taliban-controlled and non-Taliban-controlled regions of the country. The report reveals that of the 1,277 Afghan women and men surveyed, more than 90% of women and men expressed support for equal work and education opportunities, free expression, protection of rights of women, participation of women in government, and the inclusion of women's human rights in peace talks. The report also revealed a striking, almost unanimous expression by women surveyed in Taliban-controlled areas that the Taliban had made their lives "much worse." According to respondents, physical and mental health had deteriorated significantly and included extremely high rates of depression and suicide.

Before the rise of the Taliban in 1994, women in Afghanistan had a long tradition of employment outside the home-a broad range of professional involvement in the society that included female members of parliament. Prior to the Taliban, women once accounted for 70% of all teachers, 50% of civil servants, and 40% of medical doctors.

"Those forming a new administration for Afghanistan have a responsibility in keeping with international law, to which Afghanistan is a party, to insure that the Conference for Peace and Unity in Afghanistan, as well as other such groups, are representative of the entirety of Afghan women and men," stated Leonard S. Rubenstein, Executive Director of PHR. "If all groups do not have a representative seat at the table, this process is bound to fail and the fractures that now divide Afghanistan will only widen."

Article 21 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives"; everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country; and "the will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government".

Article 25 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, to which Afghanistan is a party, guarantees the rights of all individuals to take part in political affairs. The Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam, signed by the Organization of the Islamic Conference in 1990 (Afghanistan is a member of the Organization of the Islamic Conference) contains provisions citing women's rights to equality with men.

Physicians for Human Rights appeals to Conference for Peace and Unity in Afhanistan, the Loya Jirga, or grand council, and the United States and its allies to facilitate the development of a transitional government for Afghanistan that includes women and representatives from all political and ethnic groups and effectively represents the health and human rights interests of the Afghan people.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 09:49 PM

And finally, here is this article from RAWA, the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan's website:

Fall of Kabul Could Lead to a Bloodbath, Officials Warn

The International Herald Tribune , November 13, 2001 Pamela Constable and Molly Moore Washington Post Service

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan As opposition forces took control of key cities in Afghanistan and swept closer to the capital, Kabul, Pakistani officials and international observers warned Monday that an ethnic bloodbath could result if the Western coalition and the United Nations did not move speedily to impose security and establish an interim government.

United Nations officials in Islamabad said that they had received unconfirmed reports of looting, civilian abductions, gun battles and possible summary executions in Mazar-i-Sharif, a city of 250,000 that was seized by the Northern Alliance, the Afghan opposition militia, over the weekend. They also said that an international aid warehouse there had been attacked and looted.

UN and Pakistani officials said that the unexpected swiftness of the Northern Alliance advance had left a dangerous political void in Afghanistan, 90 percent of which has been ruled by the Taliban militia since 1996. Some warned that the country could collapse in a volatile, north-south geographic split between ethnic groups.

If opposition forces enter Kabul, and the international community does not bring in armed reinforcements or announce concrete plans to form a broad-based interim government within the next several days, the officials said, Afghanistan could erupt in a chaotic reprise of the 1990s civil conflict among Afghan warlords that left many thousands dead and the nation in ruins.

"The United Nations must move with alacrity," said one Pakistani official. "If a political dispensation is not put in place quickly, they will all be at each other's throats."

With the military sweep moving far more swiftly than foreign efforts to prepare a broad-based interim government in Kabul, Pakistani and foreign observers said that they feared warlords with long-standing grudges would now control major areas of the country before police forces or a temporary government could be put in place.

"There is not much more than a 48- to 72-hour window of opportunity left, and then it's gone," said one Afghan observer. "The Northern Alliance now has almost half of Afghanistan, and where the hell is the political process?"

According to a UN Afghan expert, retreating Taliban forces have been telling local Pashtun tribal leaders that "evil forces" are taking control and that Pashtuns must join with the Taliban to "defend their very existence."

Unless the coalition or the UN quickly offer Pashtun groups an alternative, the expert and others said, these groups may have little choice but to join forces with the Taliban for fear of reprisals by advancing Northern Alliance forces.

Monday, sketchy reports reaching UN officials in Pakistan indicated that violence against civilians had already begun to take place in Mazar-i-Sharif, where the alliance seized control over the weekend. The officials said that they had received numerous but unconfirmed reports of looting, kidnappings, gun battles and executions in the city.

"Every time Mazar has changed hands in the past, violent atrocities have occurred,' said Stephanie Bunker, a spokesperson for the UN coordination mission for Afghanistan in Islamabad. Since the weekend, she said, uncomfirmed reports were coming in "of violence and summary executions there."

A spokesperson for the World Food Program, a relief arm of the UN operating in Afghanistan, said that the situation in Mazar-i-Sharif was "volatile," with reports of "looting, civilian abductions and street battles." The spokesperson also said that a food program warehouse there had been looted over the weekend, with 89 tons of food stolen.

"These things get out of control," said one international observer. The alliance has neither disciplined forces nor effective communication, he said. The only remedy is to get UN political officers "on the ground" to manage and protect groups who want to surrender.

During the past five years, Taliban and Northern Alliance forces have waged a see-sawing battle for control of Mazar and the surrounding provinces, and both sides have been accused of committing horrific abuses.

In addition to the danger of anti-Pashtun violence by advancing Northern Alliance forces, some Pakistani and international observers said Monday that they also feared bloodshed among the rival ethnic groups within the alliance.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 01:39 AM

Does anyone know why there is no international presence in Kabul right now? It seems like there has been enough time to get people in there to help. Am I being naive?

I find myself wondering if the Northern Alliance is being allowed to commit reprisal killings as an example to the remaining Taliban forces, and to convince them to surrender.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 02:35 AM

I have not seen any news footage of Kabul in which there were women who were not wearing burkas (sp?). In fact, in all of the film footage I've seen so far, I've seen hundreds of men, but only three women, and they were completely covered. Has anyone seen any actual footage of women in the streets or out in public, either covered up or not covered up?

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 02:40 AM

I also think it's interesting that the timing of the "liberation" of Kabul coincides perfectly with the meeting of the WTO in Qatar.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: Gervase
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 05:06 AM

No, you're not being naive Carol. It's what happens in war - the best laid plans (!) and all that. The US/UK axis was desperate for the Northern Alliance not to take Kabul until a political solution had been developed - one which could bring together various tribal factions, including the Pathans in the south who are still largely under Taliban control and from whom the indiginous Taliban are largely drawn.
One scenario would be to have the elderly king installed as an interrim head of state - a constitutional monarch with little executive power - while something approaching a democratic structure was built.
Snag is, the Northern Alliance (a very loose-knit alliance at that) has little time for the Pathans, and plenty of motivation to put itself into a strong position now.
In one of those kinetic moments that sometimes happens in warfare, the alliance struck at the right time (and I'm sure that the bombing did a lot to weaken the Taliban resolve). The Taliban military opposition seems to have collapsed around Kabul and Jalalbad (although the taking of Kandahar - where thousands of hard-liners are said to be preparing for a 'death or glory' stand may be rather different) and the Alliance have simply stepped in to fill the vacuum.
We have already seen some ugly (but inevitable) scenes of reprisal, but the hope is that order can be restored in Kabul before the various Alliance warlords divide the spoils between them (although some have already been turning up at government buildings and declaring themselves holders of official office).
This one, I'm afraid, could run and run...

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: paddymac
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 06:34 AM

I suspect that Hollowfox spoke for most of us when he said: "If I knew how to improve this, I'd do it." The problem is that none of us yet knows how to fix it. What should be clear is that creating a political system in some image of the west is a thing that takes time, lots of it, and vast inputs of other sustaining energies. In the end, whatever kind of governance emerges there can only be sustained if it conforms to the ways of the people there. However enlightened we like to think we are, I don't see that we have any right to remake that society in our own image. We have every right to destroy the threat to our well-being represented by bin laden and company, but our brief does not extend beyond that.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 08:01 AM

The Taliban seem to have spirited themselves into the ether faster than anyone could have anticipated. It was a tall order to expect the alliance to halt its advance at the edge of the city (which initially they did), while reporters sauntered in unchallenged. When you have a vacuum, something has to fill it.

Gervase has outlined some possible outcomes, good and bad - it's fingers-crossed time. But my own main concern is food aid, and the prospects of that getting through now look better than I would have dared hope a week or two ago.

Guest, you're confused. The guest I was talking about was American.

Thanks to all those subsequent guests who have chipped in with the views of RAWA etc - all highly pertinent stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 08:08 AM

No Fionn, I'm not confused. I am the American guest who posted Nov 13 @1:23 And the guest who posted Nov 13 @ 8:23, and the guest who posted the articles in the remaining guest posts last night.

And you are welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 08:42 PM

Well, I think it's going to take a lot more than a change of government in Afghanistan to make it possible for the women there to be able to live like people.

On the news tonight, I saw a scenario in which a woman, completely covered up, was trying to tell some sort of official of the Northern Alliance about the problems of getting food for herself and her family. And she told him that she hated wearing the burka (sp?). A man standing nearby (not a Taliban) grabbed a stick, and was going to beat her with it. He was stopped, but I find myself wondering what would have happened if there hadn't been camera present.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 08:57 PM

To the most recent guest: what is the point of claiming to be all the others? I don't get it.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 07:59 AM

Fionn,

I am the only anonymous guest who has posted to this thread.

People can either accept the information and opinions I offered, or reject them. That doesn't matter one iota to me.

I don't play the "bait and bash the anonymous guest" game, so you might as well give it up.

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 08:39 AM

CarolC,

I agree about the plight of women in this "in-between" stage. It doesn't appear they will be liberated as equally as the men, does it?

One picture from the wire services this morning shows one very young woman with her burqa off her face--in a sea of blue burqas covering the women. And she looks somewhat fearful in the photograph as well.

It will be interesting to see if the British and American powers that be will stop talking completely about the plight of Afghan women, now that one of their manly objectives (routing the Taliban) has been achieved.

Anyone willing to bet whether the British and American politicos, who have been so quick to point out the plight of Afghan women in the last month or so, will be advocating for women's rights in the post-Taliban era?

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 08:58 AM

Hi Guys, Hi Fionn, how are things, wak, Haven't heard from you for a while. I just had to correct my brother, here, the other Larry who said that American policy is determined by elections... etc. Well, if that were the case, Gore would be president, who actually won our last election, and the present occupant of the White House (so appropriatly named) would not have signed an order for military and therefore SECRET trials after the war, which would have been the only way we could have had a clue if Le Figaro had the facts right when they said the CIA station chief for the region met with Bin Laden two weeks before the WTC tragidy. Wouldn't it be nice if we stopped all the secrecy and DID live in a democracy? Maybe I am nutz for hopes, but we Friends are big on the truth, that is why we invented the price tag.
By the by, Fionn does play music and contributes greatly to all the threads musical and otherwise. In fact, as one who writes folk music, I will be the first to state that the "non musical" threads are vital for writers of the people's music.
Cheers all,
Larry (the InOBU one)

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 08:52 PM

The current "20 Clicks" from the Mother Jones website:

Years since Afghanistan had a functioning legislature: 8

Number of bombs which have been dropped on Afghanistan by President Bush's Administration: 8,000

Number of bombs which would have been dropped on Afghanistan by a President Gore Administration: N/A

Landmines planted in Afghanistan as of 1997: 10 million

Percentage of Afghans under age 15: 42.2

Percentage of Afghan children who die before age five: 26

Percentage of adult Afghans who are literate: 31

Proportion of Afghan population which fled the country during the wars of the 1990s: 1 in 3

Afghan refugees still in Pakistan and Iran in early 2000: 3.4 million

Percentage of Afghan children over age eight that experienced the death of a parent between 1992 and 1996: 29

Percentage that saw many people killed at one time by rocket or artillery attacks: 50

Percentage who believed they would die during the conflict: 90

Number of children who have been killed during the past 20 years of war in Afghanistan, before this year: 400,000

Number of children who have died of malnutrition and illness during this same period: 4 million

Number of Afghan children under the age of five who die each year due to easily treatable illness: 268,000

Percentage of Kabul's teachers, civil servants and medical doctors, respectively, which were women according to a 1997 report: 70, 50, 40

Percentage of a woman's body that suffered severe burns that could not be treated because the Taliban refused to let a male doctor remove her clothing: 80

Number of delegations of Islamic scholars from Cairo who traveled to Afghanistan to argue, without success, that Islamic law did not support the Taliban's decision to destroy the historic cliffside Buddhas of Bamiyam: 1

Number of horses in caravan which supplies the Northern Alliance front: 300

Combined proven oil reserves, in barrels, of Afghanistan neighbors Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan: 15 billion

Proven natural gas deposits for these four countries, in cubic meters: 9 trillion

Total worth of oil and gas reserves in the Central Asian republics, at last year's prices, in U.S. dollars: 3 trillion

Afghanistan's proven and probable natural gas reserves, in cubic feet: 5 trillion

Afghanistan's proven and probable oil and condensate reserves, as estimated by the Soviet Union, in barrels: 95 million

Percentage of Earth's potential oil reserves believed to be under the Caspian Sea: 16

Percentage of Central Asia Gas. a consortium that planned an ambitious gas pipeline across Afghanistan, that was controlled by California-based UNOCAL: 46.5

Years before UNOCAL pulled out of the pipeline project after failed negotiations with the Taliban: 7

Distance, in kilometers, pipeline was to stretch from the Caspian Sea through Afghanistan to Pakistan: 1,271

Estimated cost of pipeline, including proposed additional extension to India, in U.S. dollars: 2.5 billion

Number of major newspaper articles in the 60 days preceding Oct. 24 in which the terms "Afghanistan," "oil," "pipeline" and "Unocal" appeared, according to the Lexis-Nexis database: 19

Number of these articles which were published in the United States: 9

Number of these U.S.-published articles which include details of UNOCAL and U.S. efforts to negotiate with the Taliban: 3

Out of 30 countries surveyed by Gallup International, number where a majority of people agree that, in response to the September 11 terrorist attacks, military attacks are preferable to pursuing justice nonviolently through international law, however long it takes: 2*

Subject: RE: BS: America, UK and the world
From: DougR
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 01:36 AM

Larry: were you not here ...I would miss you.

DougR