BS: Faith-based schools in the UK

Subject: Faith-based schools in the UK
From: GUEST,EarlofSidcup
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 04:02 AM

There is a debate about increasing the number of faitth-based schools in the UK. 'President' Blair wants more of them. Generally Church of England primary schools offer a higher standard. I went to a Catholic primary, although not a Catholic. I learnt to read write and add up, but found the religion oppressive. The following may be the answer (quoted from a reader's letter in The Times today).

"A start to remedying the lack of religious tolerance in our society could be to ensure that all state schools give, in the main, a secular education (letters, December 11, etc). Pupils' faiths can be taught in separate classes by various religious tutors coming from outside the schools. This will mean that there will be numbers of children whose parents prefer them not to participate in religious tuition, or who have insufficient representation to warrant a separate class. These children could, during that period, be taught philosophy."

Subject: RE: BS: Faith-based schools in the UK
From:
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 04:20 AM

Having seen first hand the violence and hatred that can flare up due to the 'apartheid' system of separate faith schools I do not see that they have any place in a modern intergrated society. I believe that all children should be given a basic education of ALL major religions so that they can see that there are more similarities than differences between the faiths. The children should not be forced to follow any particular religion, but should be free to follow whichever they choose.

Scott

Subject: RE: BS: Faith-based schools in the UK
From: Morticia
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 06:47 AM

IT is true that by and large, the faith based schools offer a better standard, or at least that has been my experience when I worked in education. You then get a great many people willing to do just about anything to get their kids into one, including moving or having them baptised. Interestingly though, since this is cited as one of the contributory factors to the polarisation of british society, I saw a lot more racial tension and bigotry between asian and west african/carribean children in London where I worked,than between the white and black kids, none of whom attended faith based schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith-based schools in the UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 08:12 AM

If faith based schools are so much better than secular schools that parents are willing to go to the inconveniance of faking religious committment, it might be better to work out what they are doing that is better, and introduce that into the secular schools.

I've never heard any evidence that secular schools are any less likely to produce people who grow up to be religiously and racially intolerant.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith-based schools in the UK
From: Grab
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 08:58 AM

Read the recent reports on the race riots in the UK this summer, which recommend abolishing one-race/one-faith schools due to the deep divisions they create in society.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith-based schools in the UK
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 09:31 AM

All children should be taught philosophy. Then they could become rich footballers, and make gnomic utterances about seagulls, and trawlers.
Failte.....Jock

Subject: RE: BS: Faith-based schools in the UK
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 10:01 AM

A couple of good leaders in todays Telegraph on the above subject (www.dailytelegraph.com).

As a parent of four I took a conscious decision to send my children to so called "faith schools" - they were in actual fact "independent" schools. The reasoning behind making that decision was based on the generally poor standard of education available through the state system.

I am a Scot and went through the Scottish education system, my wife was English and went through the old dual system in England (Grammer Schools & Secondary Schools). The main difference from what I have seen is that, dating back to the time of Scotland's Reformation, Scotland has had a comprehensive system that has worked. The comprehensive system in England has never functioned as intended, mainly because the goal it endeavoured to achieve has always been political. It was a "fad" that, politically, had to be seen to work. In attempting to make it work excellence and ability were ignored in the pursuit of a mythical equality. The speed of advance of the convoy is always the speed of the slowest ship, and that has resulted in the mediocrity that is our state education system in Britain today.

Results/League tables, call them what you will, do give some indication of how effective schools are. By and large, the "independents" consistently out-perform the state schools. Mainly because they are independent and are not subject to the same degree of government interference as schools within the state system.

My sons, although not Catholic, went to a Catholic Boys School, my daughters to an Independent Girls school. Both schools took in boarders, my children attended as day pupils. The ethnic mix within both schools was fairly broad and I have certainly seen no sign of racism or intolerance based on difference of religion, either in the children or on the part of the schools. The existence of different religions in the world is a fact and all children should be taught about them in school, in a manner, and with the goal, as described by Jock Morris above. The proposal outlined in the reader's letter from The Times, quoted by the originator of this thread, I believe to be totally misguided and could well result in an increase in the lack of religious tolerance the author wishes to erradicate.

The "northern race riots" of last summer were most definitely not caused by the existance of "faith schools" in the United Kingdom and to suggest so, given the minute number of them, is patently ridiculous.

What is equally ridiculous is for the present NEW Labour Government under the control of TB (The Great Helmsman) and his spin doctors, to dictate to those "faith schools"/independent schools, who they must admit. That is exactly the type of government interference that has screwed up the state system. The independent sector is doing OK - sort the state system out - and for that to happen it requires clear direction, a lot less government interference and a great deal more goverment money.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith-based schools in the UK
From: Lady P. At Work
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 10:40 AM

I lived in Camden (London) for most of my life and have come to the conclusion that there are good 'faith' schools and bad 'faith' schools, the same as state schools. I went to a state all girls school ( Parliament Hill School ), which at the time enjoyed the reputation of being the best girls school in London.

Across the road there was a convent school, La Sainte Union. This school did not have a particularly good rep. academicly and the majority of girls left at 16. ( Whether to go to sixth form collages or what, I don't know ). The standard of disciplin in La Sainte Union was very high ( we're talking Nuns here), but that only held true whilst the girls were in school. Come home time the air would turn blue 50 yards from the gate ( out of range of the nuns ), they were always in fights, continuously barred from the local shops and generally made you wonder.

On the other hand there was the Jewish Free School down the road. They enjoyed the reputation of being one of the best schools in London ( out of state and independant schools ). They had good academic records, did well in sports, music and technologies. The pupils, whenever we encountered them, were ok ( well there are always a few, but on the whole....).

The difference? I think it had far more to with the parents attitudes towards the school and their children, than whether they were religious or non-religious schools. As it has been stated above, if parents are willing to move house, convert/lie about converting to a religion, find the money to pay for equipment, help in fund raising, promise time to help out at the school, drive miles to deliver kids to the schools, remortgage the house to pay for fees, then they will help make a school that much better. Their children cannot help but be influenced by this.

Personally, I think all children should learn about as many religions as possible, in the context of being an academic subject. I don't think schools should be used as an arena for possible converts for any one.

In our school, religous education was compulsary for the first three years. I don't see anything wrong in that, so long as it is understood that all major religions are to be covered.

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith-based schools in the UK
From: GUEST,EarlofSidcup
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 12:53 PM

A good discussion so far, many interesting points.

I agree with those that want teaching about religions in general, together with a questioning approach. Why do we have religions . . . who benefits? In concrete terms, of course, it is the aparatchiks of the organisation (bishops, priests etc).

Subject: RE: BS: Faith-based schools in the UK
From: Les b (U.K.)
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 02:14 PM

I think that under the state school system all schools should be non denominational. If parents want their children taught their religion of choice, then let them provide it, not the state.
Faith based schools just reinforce the percieved differences between cultures & religions not the similarities.
When I was at school (a long time ago) it was only when a few children were 'excused' assembly because they were Jewish or whatever, that I realised that they were 'different' from the rest of us.
Les

Subject: RE: BS: Faith-based schools in the UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 07:37 PM

The state is just a method by which people act collectively. The people who act collectively include those people who prefer to have their children's education provided in a way which is in tune with their religion and culture.

If people who would prefer to send their children to secular schools feel obliged to send them to faith schools because they think they are better, then there is clearly something seriously wrong with the secular schools. It is hard to see how abolishing the faith schools would do anything to cure the malaise.

The argument that these type of schools contribute to prejudice and dissension in the community needs to be backed up by the kind of hardnosed research that has not been evident so far. This needs to separate out the other factors which are involved, which clearly pay a very major role in that kind of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith-based schools in the UK
From: GUEST,Les/Manchester
Date: 13 Dec 01 - 02:31 PM

Some points: - Their is very little hardnosed evidence for anything much in education. - All maintained (ie state) schools are obliged to teach about religeon in a general sense taking in all major faiths - Worship is a different issue and problem - Instruction is is not the job of the state - People don't move house to get their cherubs into faith schools with poor working class intakes. - Christian schools pick christians when they are full and anybody when they are empty. - Most secondary schools are successful comprehensive schools - Comps came about because their are not 2 types of cherubs needing different types of education - In the few selective, private and most secondary faith schools middle class children are over represented - Secondary modern schools are largley working class. - Selective systems mean the Grammer schools choose - not parents or cherubs - The Christians won't give up control of what they have so liberal politians will find themselves goind down the road with major faiths (Jews, Muslims, Sikhs?...... what is a minor faith? Scientology? Moonies? Pity the Christians and other majors can't see the problems and do something about it. - A good school is one where the bad cherubs don't go

Cheers