BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls

Subject: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: GUEST,Knappo
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 08:45 AM

A-Hoy Mates, This was sent to me at work. I thought some of you seafaring types might comment on it's validity.

Of Cannonballs and Monkeys

In the heyday of sailing ships, all war ships and many freighters carried iron cannons. Those cannon fired round iron cannon balls. It was necessary to keep a good supply near the cannon, but prevent them from rolling about the deck.

The best storage method devised was a square- based pyramid with one ball on top, resting on four resting on nine which rested on sixteen.Thus, a supply of thirty cannon balls could be stacked in a small area right next to the cannon.

There was only one problem - how to prevent the bottom layer from sliding or rolling from under the others. The solution was a metal plate called a "Monkey" with sixteen round indentations. If this plate was made of iron, the iron balls would quickly rust to it.

The solution to the rusting problem was to make "Brass Monkeys." Few landlubbers realize that brass contracts much more and much faster than iron when chilled. Consequently, when the temperature dropped too far, the brass indentations would shrink so much that the cannon balls would come right off the monkey.

Thus, it was quite literally, "Cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey!" {And all this time, you have had dirty thoughts, haven't you?}

What do ya think? Other creative ideas also welcomed. Cheers, Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 09:57 AM

Here's the official (Naval) site that talks about it in considerable context.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: GUEST,Knappo
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 10:06 AM

Thanks Steve! Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 10:23 AM

Knappo, this might be an interesting thread. Yes, I first heard, read actually, your version of brass monkey probably 25 years ago. Another interesting one is "POSH ACOMMEDATIONS." As I understand it, it came from the days of the first great steamships that sailed between America and Europe. "Posh", meant, Port out, Starboard home. Port out meant that your stateroom would be on the left (Northern) side of the ship heading to Europe. Starboard meant that your stateroom would be on the right side of the ship on it's return to America. In both cases, you could sleep later in the morning as the sun would not be shining through your porthole as early as on the other side of the side. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: gnu
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 10:40 AM

Glad I got out of bed this morning. I'm going to trace this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 10:45 AM

My understanding is that the Navy Blazer that we are all forced to wear at some time or other comes from the HMS Blazer - a ship back in the 1800's. The officers were expected to wear coats of dark blue with brass buttons. Hence - the Navy Blazer.

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 11:58 AM

Knappo Tom said:"Thus, it was quite literally, "Cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey!" {And all this time, you have had dirty thoughts, haven't you?}"

For those with the dirty thoughts, I suggest THIS...Go ahead and Click It, it's not a porn site

As to POSH.....I was absolutely sure it meant port-out,starboard-home until a few months back when on another thread, Sourdough pointed out the following from the Maerican Heritage Dictionary::

"Oh yes, Mater, we had a posh time of it down there." So in Punch for September 25, 1918, do we find the first recorded instance posh, meaning "smart and fashionable." A popular theory holds that it is derived from the initials of "Port Out, Starboard Home," the cooler, and thus more expensive side of ships traveling between England and India in the mid-19th century. The acronym POSH was supposedly stamped on the tickets of first-class passengers traveling on that side of ships owned by the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company. No known evidence supports this theory, however. Another word posh was 19th- and early 20th-century British slang for "money," specifically "a halfpenny, cash of small value." This word is borrowed from the Romany word påh, "half," which was used in combinations such as påhera, "halfpenny." Posh, also meaning "a dandy," is recorded in two dictionaries of slang, published in 1890 and 1902, although this particular posh may be still another word. This word or these words are, however, much more likely to be the source of posh than "Port Out, Starboard Home," although the latter source certainly has caught the public's etymological fancy.

Bummer huh?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 12:00 PM

that'd be American Heritage.....Maerican is a guy who's mother was Mexican and father Canadian and born in the U.S............just a joke

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Bert
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 12:24 PM

I'm not sure that the brass monkey explanation rings true.

Firstly, It sounds like a very poor design. A simple square flat bar frame would be much better.
Secondly, Even if such a design were used they surely wouldn't have made the indentations so shallow, or the balls would roll away with any movement of the ship.
Thirdly, if these were in commom use, many must have survived. Has anyone actually SEEN one of these.
Fourthly, Why call it a monkey?

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 01:55 PM

And POSH definitely predated sailing from/to AMERICA. Whether it really means Port Out, Starboard Home or not... see Chitty Chitty Bang Bang with the old sailor in the outhouse.

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 02:04 PM

Gee- I thought it was a mis-saying of "Freeze the brass off a bald monkey" :)

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Grab
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 02:15 PM

I'm sure this has come round before, but I can't find the thread.

Anyway, it sounds extremely unlikely. Metal's expensive, difficult to work, and has the aforementioned shrinkage problem. Wood's cheap, easy to work, and doesn't shrink. So no-one would make anything out of metal if they could make it out of wood instead, and the Navy was nothing if not practical - remember that the British Navy invented the production line (unless the Egyptians got there first, anyway :-).

Any metalworking landlubber _would_ know about the effects of temperature on metals anyway.

Cannonballs weren't perfectly round anyway, so a plate with round indentations wouldn't be much use. If the bottom cannonballs were too small, they'd tend to be squirted out by the weight on them and the whole thing would collapse; if they were too big, they wouldn't sit properly so they'd fall out when the ship rolled.

Also, consider the angles involved. By simple trig, the cannonballs would always roll off the stack if the ship heeled to an angle of 30 degrees. But well before that point, a small knock would roll the cannonballs off anyway, so it likely wouldn't be safe beyond a heel of 20-25 degrees. And when you're caught in a storm, the last thing you want is bloody cannonballs dropping on your foot!

The Snopes urban legend site says that the source is unknown, but gives many other examples of what it would freeze off a brass monkey to illustrate that only the crudest version survived. And Norton's link says that the first recorded instance of the phrase was freezing the _tail_ off a brass monkey.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Gareth
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 03:21 PM

Is that Freezing Monkey suffering from Indecent Exposure ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 03:48 PM

Thanks everyone. I think we have beat the balls off this monkey don't you? Knappo

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: gnu
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 04:19 PM

20-25 degrees is common ? I'm a landlubber so I'm into Terra Firma.... the more Firma, the less Terra, nudge nudge, wink wink. So tell me, this is common ?

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 05:09 PM

I don't think that 20-25 degrees would be considered common today. But in yesteryear with wind power, small ships, large waves, I wouldn't doubt it. We went through a typhoon heading for Okinawa in the Spring of 65 and our old troop ship listed at 25 degrees during the heart of the storm. The sailors said that at 28 degrees we'd tip over. All I know is that a lot of guys were sicker than sick during it! And it was tough to navigate around the old tub.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: The Walrus
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 06:16 PM

As I heard the story, the "monkey" was a shot rack in a COASTAL battery, not aboard ship (land based gun sites don't tend to heel over[1]), the name coming from a decorative rack at some foreign fortress. Ah well, a little more for the tapestry of possible urban legend.

Regards

Walrus

[1] If they do, you've more than a few loose cannon balls to worry about

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Crane Driver
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 07:57 PM

Yeah, I heard it as land-based artillery as well. The device was described as a simple metal ring (Monkey Ring) that encircled the pile and stopped the lowest level of balls from moving sideways. BTW, on ships, and possibly in coastal batteries as well, boys and young men were given the job of carting ammunition to the guns, and were called Powder Monkeys, so there is a connection between artillery ammunition and monkeys.

The occasional Folk 'Superband' Brass Monkey described themselves during one of their inactive periods as Cryogenitally Frozen. Ouch!!

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Bert
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 10:18 PM

But the differential expansion between the brass and the steel would still be negligable. A few hundredths of an inch at the most. Not nearly enough to cause a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Spud Murphy
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 11:04 PM

Steve, that's what swabbies been telling jar-heads ever since the Bon Homme Richard. Coming back from Japan in November '45 we had one nervous Marine sit in the companionway watching the list indicator the whole trip. And we hit a hurricane off Okinawa on that one, too.

Spud

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Mike Byers
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 12:51 AM

I'd reckon Bert is right; not a big difference in coefficients of expansion between brass and iron. And if a "monkey" had tolerences so tight that differential expansion would have an effect, what would keep the the balls from falling off with the slightest motion of the ship? I still like the story, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Gareth
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:15 AM

I have seen old drawings of Men of War gun decks with shot heaped in piles. I suspect that this may be styalised or dressed for harbour inspections though. "IF it moves - Salute it. If it doen't - Paint it !
I concur with the thoughts that the real differential of expansion makes no odds, and that with the normal motion of a sailing ship in a seaway only the most naive of people would expect shot to stay in neat pyramids.

On personal experience a pile of beer cans will move in a yacht - best kept lying on their sides in the bilge to keep cool.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: gnu
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 07:02 AM

Crunch your empty beer cans so they lay flat with the hole "up" to avoid spillage and so they won't roll around while your driving. That can be distracting when your "keeping an eye out".

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 07:20 AM

This did come up somewhere in an old thread. As I always understood it the brass monkey was only used when the ship was fully dressed (like a parade or inspection by a lofty goverment official) & then only on ships commanded by a notable, Admiral or Commander of the fleet or whatever. The only monkey's I've ever seen were of iron & trianguler in shape. Another one of many interesting phrases taking to shore "toe the line" comes from the practice of making a sailor who has been sherking his duties stand on deck legs spread & toes lined up on the edge of the same line formed by the wood used in decking. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 09:09 AM

Barry Finn "Toeing the line"
As I heard it - is a boxing reference when fighting to the Queensbury rules. Opponents had to meet at a line scratched in the dirt and to ensure that the fists were out of reach until the official start the pugilists had face each other one leg stretched in front of the other with a toe to the line.
Interesting because the Navy obviously predates the Marquis but which explanation came first?

either way it seems to be an obedience to rules thingy.

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 09:41 PM

... hmmm, interesting ... "toe the line." I wonder two things: how many other definitions are out there; and which one is true, or all they all true. Fascinating! CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: The Walrus
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 06:12 PM

Mr Red,

The Line scratched in the boxing ring predates the Marquis of Queesbury, being an established feature in boxing in the Regency period (and also giving us the term "up to scratch" - a miller who couldn't come up to scratch at the start of the next round lost).

Regards

Walrus (Dare I mention "on the carpet" or "The game's not worth a candle")

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Dead Horse
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 07:55 AM

A *monkey* was also the name given to a wooden barrel, used to store gunpowder, or ale etc.
Stan Hugill mentions on tape that when Nelson died, instead of burying him at sea, they put his body in a cask of brandy, and also that sailors would frequently rob the casks of liqour by boring a hole in them and sucking out the contents. Formally known as *sucking the monkey* this process came to be known as *bleeding the admiral*. At least the brandy now had *body*.

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Gervase
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:05 AM

I'm sure the popular belief is balls. Most roundshot was usually kept in lockers below decks (where it helped ballast the ship but was also prone to rust - hence the tedious task of chipping the rust off the shot at regular intervals to make sure it fitted the bore, as often mentioned in the Aubrey and Maturin books of Patrick O'Brian), and brought up when action was imminent.
Shot kept near the guns was generally stored in baulks of timber with indentations like a multiple egg-cup, deep enough to stop the shot rolling off if the vessel pitched, but not so deep as to make extraction impossible.
You can see such shot garlands on the wonderfully-restored HMS Warrior in Plymouth harbour.
As for the brandy - "...an' a Drop o' Nelson's blood wouldn't do us any harm..."!

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 05:26 PM

A drop of "Nelson's Blood" is RUM
Nelson surely was pickled in RUM
or is this another myth? Most high ranking officers' bodies were brought home like this. Benbow being one of them.
Hadn't heard the monkey story! I'm tempted to say we all sound bananas, but I won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From:
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 05:59 AM

A bit more detail on the Brass Rings

Drop of Nelson's Blood

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 06:16 AM

I know fellow who has a bottle of Rommel's (sp ?) rum. Given that it is now nearing sixty years old, is it still drinkable or simply a collectors' item.

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Ringer
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 06:18 AM

If rusting was a problem when iron balls were stacked on an iron "monkey", I'd have thought the electrolytic action when iron balls were stacked on a brass monkey (particularly in a wet/salty environment) would be even worse.

And, anyway, wouldn't rust have fused the balls together, as well as to the monkey?

Guest Knappo's original post sounds like a myth to me.

Incidentally, this is my last post as "Bald Eagle": my nom de plume causes too many folks to assume I'm American (I'm English). From now on, I shall appear as "Ringer".

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Ringer
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 06:20 AM

Ah: I'd forgotten that all my previous posts would be renamed.

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:35 AM

An interesting change of nom-de-plume; being English, any relation to the Welsh rugby player of that name who got sent off against England because the Newspapers had hyped him up in advance as being a thug who neede sending off ??
Time to change the nom de plume again ?

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Naemanson
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 10:34 AM

As regards the angle of a sailing ship when heeled over keep in mind the phrase "lee rail under" which describes a very extreme angle when sailing.

In 1972 I served on the USS Compton (DD-705) out of Boston Harbor. During one storm I remember watching the list indicator while on watch in the engine room. We recorded a list of 42 degrees. As I remember we were holding on to anyhting cool enough to touch as we waited for the old girl to come back on to an even keel.

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Gareth
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 05:13 PM

Obviously time to get my

Ringer was innocent !"

Tee-Shirt out again.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 02:20 AM

The story I heard was the expression comes from the Crimean War and was connected to shore batteries. Apparently it got so cold during the seige of Sevastopol that the metal buttons on the greatcoats of the French soldiers turned to powder.

POSH I've always heard related to passages between England and India.

Cheers,

Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Schantieman
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 01:50 PM

On the (a) rather old and (b) creeping subject of Nelson's Blood, I reckon they put him in a cask of brandy & his blood stained it to look like rum. The Marines guarding him wouldn't have tasted brandy perhaps? Certainly it's rum that's known as 'Nelson's Blood'.

The 'multiple egg cup' shot garlands are also to be seen in HMS Victory, only a couple of cables from the Warrior in Portsmouth.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 03:56 PM

And what about my brother's bottle of Rommel's rum ? Is it still good to drink after a big kill ? or should it go to an auction house ?

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: GUEST,Bill
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 07:24 PM

have you ever thought that they made female brass monkeys as well.
Bill
(the sound)

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 11:47 PM

Persoanlly, I am inclined to believe that there were no brass shot garlands or monkeys. They stored shot, as Gervaise describes, in wooden racks when in action. I am much more inclined to believe that the expression was "tail off a brass monkey", probably an expression from the era of the Raj, which then just got gutterized into balls.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 12:10 PM

Gnu, The rum may still be good if you have not lost a significant amount through evaporation. If you have, don't waste your time with what's left. It will taste like diabetic's piss. If the level is still up, smell it first, then try it. If it's any good, send me a sample, as I collect rums.

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 12:29 PM

I love the elegant way the US Navy site blickied by Norton1 in the second post of this thread skirts around the problem of quoting or not quoting the more common and more "apparently vulgar" expression!

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Schantieman
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 06:16 AM

Had a conversation last night (over a pint or three of Cain's Formidable Ale, so it might not have been too reliable!) in which someone put forward an alternative theory.

The shot was brought to the upper deck only for the battle (wooden multiple egg-cups only on the main & lower gun decks) and stowed in temporarily rigged shot garlands, made (presumably) of brass. Since they were brought from the hold they were a bit warmer than sea temperature and, because they were massive, unlikely to freeze in the short time they were on deck. If it was very cold, however, the spray might freeze on them and then it would be cold enough to freeze the balls ON a brass monkey.

Or is this a load of balls?

Incidentally, one of the Times crossword clues yesterday was "Cannon ball (6)" (also done in the pub!). Anyone (who hasn't already solved it!) like to hazard a guess? A virtual pint for the first correct answer. No looking at today's paper!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 06:33 AM

A Round?

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Schantieman
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 08:01 AM

One word

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 09:25 AM

"around" - one word - six letters

Subject: RE: BS: Of Brass Monkeys and Balls
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 01:11 PM

sphere?