BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs

Subject: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 08:38 PM

Allright, you dog lovers. I need help. I know that Border Collies are a recent breed, and that Lassie goes back at least to the forties. And I remember the Dumb sheep dog in the Warner Brothers cartoons who uttered that classic line, "Which way did he go?, Which way did he go?." English Sheep dogs go back further than Border Collies, I'm told. Someone said in another thread that shepherds only used sheep starting in the 6th or 7th century. I am real ignorant about the history of the use of dogs to heard or protect sheep. Can anyone educate me?

An unplowed field.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Amos
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 08:39 PM

They were invented by the wives of shepherds as a form of chasitty belt...

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 08:42 PM

Thanks, Amos: I think I can use that. How did they strap them to their wives, though?

Anybody else know more than me and Amos?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Mark Clark
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 08:54 PM

The Internet is replete with information on dog breeds. Try the Petcare Information Center's Alphabetical Listing of All Dog Breeds for some information an history on the Sheep Dogs that particularly interest you. Also visit the Dog Breed Information Center's alphebetical listing by category. The American Kennel Club is another good source.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 09:34 PM

Border Collie: Descended from reindeer herding dogs brought to Scotland by the Viking invaders. These dogs were later crossed with the Valee sheepdog.
Old English Sheepdog: Unknown. Three conjectures: from a hairy Russian dog called the owtchar; a close relative of the Briard or Bergamasco; related to the barbone and deerhound.
Shetland Sheepdog: "Probably" from collies brought to the Shetlands and crossed with a local dog, the yakkin, a small dog no longer recognized. The breed was completely developed by 1700.
Welsh Corgi: "Probably" developed from the same stock as the German basset. Traces have been found in the Celtic civilization which brought the dog to England. Used to guard flocks for centuries.
Bearded Collie: "Already used in Scotland at the time of the Roman invasion."
Several other breed used in Europe with sheep; also the Australian Shepherd, which was brought to California in the 1800s.
See Simon and Shuster Guide to Dogs, 1980, ed. E. M. Schuler, from the Gino Pugnetti original.

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 10:14 PM

Thanks for the blue clickies, Mark, and all of your information, Dicho. What I'm really trying to find out from all of this is whether there were sheep dogs out in the fields with the shepherds at the time that Christ was born. From what I see now, it looks like Collies are thought to be the oldest breed, if they were brought over during the time of the Roman Empire. I don't think I've ever seen an illustration of the shepherds with a sheep dog. But then, if I describe a sheep dog at the time of Christ's birth, who's going to prove me wrong?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 10:23 PM

Geez Jerry.......it was just a joke about the pedrantry of this place! I truthfully have read about dogs being developed as an aid to herding sometime around the 8th or 9th century, but I don't recall the source....it was a long time ago.

First, what we know as "purebreds" are a newer phenomenon going back only a few centuries although many of the "purebreeds" go back further. It's on;y been in the past few hundred years that we have begun to "catalog" these and develop newer breeds. The oldest known breed I believe, outside of possibly the Dingo, is the Pharoah Hound whose ancestry does date back to the time of Christ. Outside of that, I haven't got a clue!

Good luck, but I wish I hadn't mentioned it......

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 10:37 PM

Jerry, find a picture of the Canaan Dog, originally from the Middle East. It is a shorthair, medium-sized dog, white with black or brown, about 40-55 lbs, looks like a Border collie with short hair (Described in the book I mentioned, says it in now used in the USA so other pictures should be available).
Lots of breeds were used through time and various crossings tend to make changes. Breeds were developed regionally, and unless you can find a picture or a description from the Middle East of that time ??? The Canaan looks like a good bet, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 10:38 PM

That's o.k., Spaw: After I find out everything I can, I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do. Isn't that the way we all do it? I suspect that you're right... nobody probably knows whether they used dogs for herding at the time of Christ.... Hey,it just occurred to me to pull out my Nave's Topical Bible. Who would think that you could look up "dog" and find anything. But here it is:

Job 30:1
"But now they make sport of me, those who are younger than I, whose fathers I would have disdained to set with the dogs of my flock."

By Golly, there were sheep dogs at the time of Job!!! I can see that there's been a serious oversight in telling the story of the Nativity.

I should have saved the time and asked a Border Collie. Actually, one has already told me the story of the first Christmas. When in doubt, believe the dog.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 10:57 PM

Arf, arf, arf! Woof, Woof. Hey, Border Collies obsess about frizbees too.

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 11:09 PM

You have a point Rolfy.......I think a lot of them are completely schizoid at times. Not to say there are not some wonderful Border Collies, but a lot of them I've met recently seem to have been seriously nuts from possibly either too much inbreeding or maybe the advent of the frisbee.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 12:00 AM

Well, the McNab is far superior, imo, and not schizoid, at all.**BG** Actually, the reports I've read about them, and my experience with Merls, say that they have been bred more for performance then looks, so they have very little of the problems seen with inbreeding, etc.

Jerry, what about the Saluki? I know they were in Egypt and Arabia in ancient times, but they don't look much like a border collie.:-)

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 12:39 AM

Following Dicho's lead....

CANAAN DOG including photo and temperament.

And from CANAAN DOG CLUB (UK):

The Canaan Dog is an ancient breed and they, like the other pariah dogs of the Middle East, are thought to have originated with the Indian Wolf. However there is another theory that the pariah dog descends from a southern species of canine distinct from the wolf, though closely related to it. (For a more in-depth look at this theory request a reprint of THE INDIAN WOLF, THE AUSTRALIAN DINGO AND THE INDIAN "PARIAH DOG" by Gautam Das as appears in the January 1999 issue of THE CANAAN DOG NEWS and originally printed in the January 1998 issue of MERIGAL.) Drawings have been found on the tombs at Beni-Hassan dating 2200-2000 BC depicting dogs that show unmistakable resemblance to the Canaan Dog of today. The breed belongs to one of the oldest families of dogs, the Spitz family, whose members exist all over the world. Although dogs of similar type appear throughout the Middle East, the specific type of the Canaan Dog is found primarily in Israel.

The Canaan Dog is said to have been the guard and herd dog of the ancient Israelites. They were plentiful in the land of Canaan (from which they get their name) until the dispersion of the Israelites. The dogs then too dispersed, the majority ending up in the Negev Desert that harboured much Israeli wildlife. Basically a wild dog that has evolved through natural selection, only the strongest, most fit and most intelligent specimens survived the demanding conditions of the harsh Israeli environment. Some of the dogs did retain a form of domesticity by living with the Bedouin and earning their keep by guarding the herds and camps.

The Canaan Dog is one of the few natural breeds left in the world with wild Canaans still to be found in the Middle East, primarily around Israel. They are a "pariah dog", that is a domesticated breed that has reverted to the wild (though some debate that a pariah is a wild dog that has become domesticated) and a member of the Spitz dog family. Canaans are becoming an endangered species in the wild. Additionally thereare only just over 1400 domesticated Canaans in the world. Because even the domesticated Canaan Dog is still just a few generations from the wild, it still possesses very strong survival instincts, which make it an intelligent, independent and wary breed.

Bedouins use them [now] as flock and camp guardians. The Israeli army uses them [now] as sentry dogs, tracking dogs and for detecting landmines. And they are also used as home guardians and companions. Though its character and abilities makes the Canaan a versatile breed, the fact is it was designed by nature for survival. Man has been able to make good use of these survival instincts in the aforementioned ways.

The Canaan Dog is extraordinarily loyal to its family. This trait can make it very difficult to re-home as an adult as it will often pine after its former owner(s), sometimes not eating for quite a while. It can take up to a year for an adult Canaan Dog to completely adjust to a new home and form a strong bond with its new owner. Canaan Dogs are very good with and protective of children and show great tolerance with little ones. They are sweet and loving with their family and physically demonstrative - -often pawing you or pushing your hand with their nose in order to get you to stroke them.

I invited the UK club folks to come discuss, via their Guestbook.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 01:02 AM

..... and awwwwwwwwwww! See THIS ONE!!!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 01:07 AM

And, the Basenji looks like an obvious relative. They are beautiful dogs. I've had the pleasure of meeting one in my life and he made a lasting impression.

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 01:40 AM

G'day Jerry,

My first reaction was towards the general loating of dogs, a widespread atitude in the East ... and apparent in the Bible. However, I checked with my Bible Reader's Encyclopædia and Concordance (Rev. Clow, Collins, London, 1962) and read:

"Dog. The Jews do not seem to have in amy true sense domesticated the dog. They did not, like the Egyptians, train it for hunting, though they seem to have employed it as a guard over their flocks (Job 30: 1). Dogs hunting in packs, were then, as now in eastern cities, useful as scavengers, and thus regarded always with disgust and loathing."

So I guess it depends on who (or where) you are. The city folk despised them ... and the shepherds probably knew better!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 02:09 AM

Bob, I notice that your source there refers to a dog being used as a "guard" which differs from the ability to "herd." I was wondering if anyone had an information on when this role changed and exactly what type of dog may have been involved. Most of the earlier domesticated breeds used were what we now refer to as "sight hounds" (Pharoah, Saluki, Deerhound) and share some resemblance to the herding breeds, ie; long muzzle, less pronounced stop, higher eye sockets, high aspect ratio chest/stomach.

Rolfy, any ideas?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 03:04 AM

G'day 'Spaw,

Not being a Judaic scholar, I'm forced to trust what I'm told in that quote. I'll try to find a more detailed commentary ... later, when I'm off-line.

I know that some dogs (specifically in France & Belgium)have been trained for special guard roles, living in the herd (being fed separately, of course) and providing immediate defense against wolves, &c. Some of these dogs have recently been deployed on the western foothills of the Blue Mountains in dingo=prone areas, with great effect.

I would think that, if there were also shepherds, the dog would inevitably play its role as part of the "shepherd pack" ... paralleling the actions of the shepherds ... and being coaxed / coached / trained in herding skills. Unfortunately, we are not likely to read anything useful on the subject in any of the Pharisaic jottings that survive.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 05:30 AM

I thought they were to keep the sheep away from Gareth!!!*BG*.....Failte.........Jock

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 06:21 AM

G'day again,

Katlaughing: Basenji are certainly different (actually, they are part of the group we tend to think of under the "dingo" grouping ... not particularly domesticated; not possessing a bark (a human-trained trait; with retractable claws and the concommittant ability to climb trees ... fences ... &c.

A friend had one a while back - it played merry hob with his fiddle practice ... he had only to take out that fiddle and check the tuning ... and this damned beast was at his feet, head back and howling as if it was back on the African savannah! I can only assume that the tone of the fiddle resonated with some innate herb image and it was destined to join in.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 06:26 AM

Dang!

Er, G'day again ...,

I'm sure that was meant to be: " ... the fiddle resonated with some innate herd image and it was destined to join in ..."

Regard(les)s,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 07:29 AM

And G'Day to you, Bob and ALL:
Leave it to Mudcat!!! It would have taken me weeks, if not months to gather all of this information! I expect that at the time of Christ, sheep dogs were held in low regard. Certainly Shepherds were. That's part of the beauty of the Christ story... he was first announced to the low and rejected shepherds and when he arose, the first person he appeared to was a woman(held in at least as low a regard as shepherds and sheep dogs, just because she was a woman) who was a prostitute.

All of this is coming together. Thanks so much. And, it's fun, too.

As for Border Collies, I worked for many years at a museum and nature center where we had a small farm with a herd of Cotswolds. We had a serious problem with Canada Geese, who can strip a lawn of all grass with as much efficiency as a river full of Piranhas can strip an oxen of flesh. We tried everything, and nothing worked until we came across an article in a newspaper about a woman who runs a Border Collie rescue service. Ever since the movie Babe, Border Collies have been a fashion accessory around here. Once people buy them, they discover that you actually have to put something in to them, and when you don't they usually become a real headache. So they take them to the Dog Pound (for you folks across the water, that's a place where unwanted dogs and cats are taken.) I heard over the radio yesterday that over a MILLION dogs and cats are put to sleep every year because nobody wants them. They don't "pound" em, they kill them. The two breeds of dog that are at greatest risk are Border Collies (Babe) and Dalmatians (101 Dalmatians) It's funny, when the made the movie Songcatcher, no one wanted a folksinger.)

This woman is on call at all the dog pounds in the area, and when they get a Border Collie, she takes is. Many of them are in bad shape. She has several dogs that she has trained and makes a living making daily rounds to the corporations who have beautiful lawns and water, to keep the Canada Geese away. The others, she donates to non-profit organizations and spends a week or two training them. We got one, who my staff unimaginatively named Mollie. She was quite timid and withdrawn when we got her, and she recognized Canada Geese about as much as she did refrigerators. Probably less, because she'd seen refrigerators before. I went out when she was being trained, and it was exciting to see her go from "Duh, what's that?" to complete indignation when she saw Canada Geese. It took her a couple of days. That ended our Canada Geese problem, and all the kids who come to the Museum love her. She is not schizoid... just the sweetest dog you've ever met. She's got a wonderful home, and the people down the street with a pond have our Canada Geese.

Those who feel the desire can now go Awwwwwww.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 08:11 AM

rather than aw.........

***BEGIN RANT***

Let me put in a serious plug for breed rescues. Almost every breed has them and the folks that do this are to be commended. Dog breeds have often very distinct characteristics common to the breed and very few people look at these as a dog becomes fashionable for one reason or another. Added to the problem is lack of any owner responsibility in training and being sure the inherent needs of the breed are meant. Breed rescues are filling up to overflowing with the "in" breeds. If you are looking for a dog and have the patience to do what's needed for it, look into acquiring one from a Breed Rescue.

Puppies are cute, but they grow into dogs all too soon and that playful behavior becomes destructive due to size. I'd like to hang by the balls and boobs every parent that buys their child a dog with no knowledge of what a dog entails, let alone breed specific knowledge. Hanging with them should be every "yuppie-type" who purchases the latest fashion dog. And while I'm at it, let me exterminate every pet shop on the planet that sells purebred dogs and the "breeders" (I use that term loosely) who supply them. And just for good measure, let's cull off every "breeder" who sells indiscriminately to anyone who will take a pup. Taking these steps should reduce the need for rescues dramatically.

The popularity issue also dilutes the breed and produces markedly different behaviors and appearances very quickly. A herding dog such as the Border Collie is an alert and active dog by nature, but this characteristic has become overblown since the breed became popular and along with the "cute puppie" and lack of training syndromes, has resulted in some terrible examples of this dog and from what I can see, a mutation towards hyper animals. Dalmatians, as a breed, are completely screwed now.....Some terrible characteristics in both temperament and appearance.

I love William Wegman's photographs and his work on "Sesame Street" but I cringe a bit too. My breed, once almost impossible to acquire, is gaining popularity and I hope against hope that what has happened to others doesn't fall on the Weimaraner too.

***END RANT****

(Sorry)

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 09:25 AM

Nice rant, Spaw. And all too true. The news report that I heard yesterday encouraged people not to buy dogs from pet stores. It only encourages inhumane breeding. On a less cuddly scale, perhaps, we always dreaded the weeks after Easter when we'd get tons of calls at the Museum from parents who bought their kids bunnies or baby chicks and didn't want them any more. We also had kittens and cats just dumped at the Museum, and some went wild and had to be gradually reclaimed and tamed.

Animals are NOT accessories. Neither are people, for that matter..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 10:56 AM

Jerry Rasmussen said:

"shepherds only used sheep starting in the 6th or 7th century."

What did shepherds use before they had sheep?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 11:05 AM

Cattle I think, but they had to carry little step stools with them. Sheep are much lower to the ground and a lot more convenient for the average shepherd.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 11:36 AM

Probably goats, Dave. Thank you Spaw for the Rant above. I could not agree more! Corgis are now about 30th on the popularity list--I truly hope they don't get more popular. I have seen some really bad Corgis being sold lately just because the "breeder" is able to get away with it.

I'm not sure, but possibly one reason dogs were not popular in Jewish culture is that they are not kosher. To be kosher, an animal must chew cud and have cloven hooves. Even today, strict Orthodox Jews are forbidden to associate with non kosher animals. Kashrut goes a lot farther than just eating things. Interpretations/discussions of Kashrut can get really bizarre.

I have a friend who breeds Basenji's--she lives with nine! All are really wonderful dogs, but I wouldn't reccomend them for a family with small children. They really are slightly more than half wild. Oh, and they don't have retractable claws. Barkless, well, sort of. My friend has one that has a real bark--the rest sort of yodel.

kat, Salukis are another sight or coursing hound. They were bred for chasing down (coursing) game animals, as were most of the sight hounds. If an off lead, unfenced sight hound sees a squirrel (or even a blowing leaf) he might not come home for several days!

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 12:24 PM

Uncle Dave-o:

The little Story that grew, Mudcat style. I mentioned that SOMEONE ELSE had told me that they didn't start using sheep dogs until the 6th or 7th century. Spaw fessed up that it was her idea. If you remember, I don't know NOTHIN! But, I'm learning.

Sure is fun, though..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: GUEST,Ellen Minto (UK)
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 01:21 PM

My husband lived amongst Arabs when he lived and worked in Tunisia. The Bedouins do not use dogs to herd their sheep, the women and children do that. The dogs are used to guard their flocks and camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 01:22 PM

Sheep- The very short-legged sheep most of us are familiar with is the result of a mutation. The sheep raiser saw possibilities, since the normal sheep of the time could clear many walls and fences. Selective breeding ended in a race of short-legged sheep. I remember this from university courses in evolution. I forget the date, but I think early 18C. There are still some long-legged sheep in Scotland if they haven't been eliminated- they tend to burrow into hillsides and cause erosion.
My elder daughter has two border collies and friends have others. As noted, the breed is not standardized, hence there is quite a variation. There have been problems in overbreeding by the unscrupulous, who inbreed their stocks. As a result, hip dysplasia (sp?) is a problem here in Canada. One border collie she had received operations for hip replacement at the Veterinary School, Univ. Saskatchewan, total cost about C$4000 including transportation and lodging. The operation was successful, thankfully. My daughter and her husband have land bordering a forest reserve, so the dogs have the space they need and horses to guard. Incidentally, some trials here include penning of geese.
Jerry, as you note, shepherds, like all country people, have always been looked down on by "cultured" and supposedly more educated city folks. The Basque herders brought over here generally use guard dog types, larger than the collies. In New Mexico, a Spanish family I knew with large flocks had human herders with guard dogs; I don't know the practice now. Navajo flocks are generally family owned and small in size; the owners have dogs of indeterminate ancestry that alert the owners to coyotes.
Regarding Canaan dogs, the older references I have say they are from the middle east generally. I see the Israelis have taken them over as well. I guess the old Palestinian grazing lands are all settled by immigrants now.
The dog has also been trained as a guide dog for the blind.

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: GUEST,Ellen Minto (UK)
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 01:23 PM

Dr Menzel tried to train Canaans as guide dogs for the blind, but they are not temperamentally suited for the job. I've heard that only one, in Germany, was actually used successfully for this function.

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 03:49 PM

My Mother has bred Dalmations for nearly 40 years, and the stories I could tell you about stupid people and the dogs they choose are legion. The only one I will repeat here concerns a lady, who in spite of having been introduced to a full-grown dog, to show her how big they can get, still brought the dog back when it was about 8 months old, because it got too big for her kitchen. My Mother took the dog back, but refused to give the stupid women her money back, when she had the gall to ask for it! The things you meet when you're out without your gun eh!! Failte.....Jock

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 03:55 PM

My breed, once almost impossible to acquire, is gaining popularity and I hope against hope that what has happened to others doesn't fall on the Weimaraner too.

Paws:

The reason your breed was hard to acquire is because of your waistline. Leave what befalls your Weimaraner to Karen!! She's better qualified than you are to treat it.

BTW what kind of dog do you have?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Cappuccino
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 03:59 PM

If Dalmatians are temperamentally suspect, as I gather from Spaw's post, then why are they so often promoted as being good family dogs for children?

Just curious. - Ian B

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 04:12 PM

Beats me, Ian, but they are. Spaw is right, too. They are really nutso, hyper dogs. Every time some cute movie comes out like 101 Dalmations or Beethoven, that particular breed is a gold mine for puppy mills. Most of the dogs bought because of fads end up in Rescue and many have to be put down because the people who bred and bought them are sooooo stupid!

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 06:46 PM

I just get tired sometimes I guess. The dal that most of us know today is a different animal than it was 40 short years ago and in the timespan of the breed, that is a very short time. there are still excellent Dal breeders who turn out fine specimens of what the dog should be, but they are few and far between. You can often see the physical transformation that accompanies the genetic personality changes.

Up until 1928, the Weimaraner was not even allowed much outside of Germany, and in Germany was extremely guarded by it's breeders and owners. after WWII, a few began to show up in the US and elsewhere in an almost "spoils of war" situation. Eisenhower had a pair that romped the grounds at his Gettysburg home and retreat. even then though, the breeders here fell into line with the german practice and though different lines had different merits, the dog was genetically pure. The American breeders became even more closed in some ways than the Germans who valued the natural longhair recessive gene. Longhairs here were culled off and still are today by some breeders. Longhair coats for instance are not recognized by the Weimaraner Club of America and neither is a naturally occurring coat color, blue. Both are recognized in Europe where the breed standard remains quite high and breeding is still tightly controlled. In this country though we spent too much time worrying over coats and not enough in maintaining the quality of personality and conformation the dog is so well known for. Once again that old "my right to do whatever" American habit came to the fore and because of recent popularity from Wegman's dogs (true beauties), it became a bit too popular and we are already seeing terrible representations. I can only hope that the breeders such as the ones I know will maintain the standard they have achieved and that the popularity will quickly pass.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 07:59 PM

G'day Jerry,

Your points about the relative status of shepherds, sheep dogs ... and women, in biblical times, are well made ... in fact I was thinking of another post making just the connection that you made ... that the Christmas story is one of annunciation to the meek and lowly.

A friend told me the other night that in the traditional manger scene, in the churches at which his father was minister, the Wise men are not part of the Christmas display. They are placed far away at the other end of the church and slowly moved up ... to reach te stable on the last day of the display, just before it is packed away for another year - so playing down the "upper class" element's presence in the Nativity.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 08:02 PM

That Frasier show is causing a problem in Jack Russell Terrier breeding,(as Catspaw notes with the Dalmatians and the Disney film) and has resulted in Russells being turned over to the SPCA when their new owners can't cope. Members of the more long-legged strain especially are feisty, extremely playful and tend to attach closely to one member of the family. Ours guards and protects my wife. He will attack anyone unknown to him who touches "his" house. When my wife and I jointly work on the Sunday crossword, he is in the middle, after the pencils if you pick them up. He attacked my son's Irish Wolfhound and finally agreed to an uneasy truce with his husky-Alsatian cross. In other words, he is alpha dog in my family and I am just one of the pack.

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: GUEST,AliUkducking fromthevitriol he isgonnareceiv
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 12:57 PM

Sheep dogs were bred for when men from wales and the north of england ran out of sheep and they got lonely.

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 02:31 PM

Vitrol, Ali ???

It takes a real man to outrun a sheep wearing Welly Boots !!

Actually the Sheep dogs are to catch them.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Cappuccino
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 04:35 AM

To this day, the chant of the Cardiff City football fans is, I promise you, "we are the sheep*****ers"

Try explaining that to your very young son at a football match!

- Ian B

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 10:17 AM

Ah, my Rog says, "A man, his dog and their sheep!"

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: richardw
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 08:01 PM

Sheep dogs were definitely around for the last 2000 years or so. The questions is whether they were raised for herding or guarding.

I have owned both types and raised Akbash, a Turkish breed as livestock guardian dogs. They are not trainable like the collie breeds. They are a primitive breed that bonds to the sheep and lives with them. If you can get 3 ocmmands on them you are doing well. But that is not the point. They live with the sheep all year, even in the coldest weather. They DO NOT think they are sheep. They behave quite differently than collies. They have been bred for 2000 years as protectors. They will stay with the sheep and then go out to attack coyotes, bears, cougars, whatever. They are the sighthound type varying greatly in size. Our bitch is about 70 pounds while our big stud dog was over 150 and when he stood on his hind legs he looked me right in the eye. We riased them with the sheep and it was not uncommon to find pups curled up on the back of a ewe. We had severe predators problems before we had the Akbash, Now we have none. They are large white dogs, bred for color to blend with the sheep. In others areas of Turkey there are the Anatolians, a darker breed that blends with sheep such as the Karakul. The is also the Marama, the Komondor, and several others that are breed for the same purpose.

We have seen ours chase coyotes and run off neighbour's dogs. Our bitch stays right with the small flock we have now. If they move 30 feet she gets up and follows. We have seen her round up the sheep so she can guard them when danger threatens or coyotes are around. We have seen them move over 100 head across the fields, one watching while the other followed along behind the smallest lambs.

Great dogs and all the breeders I know refuse to have anything to do with any Kennel Club. They are working dogs and are not breed for conformity. They are bred and sold on the basis of having working parents.

Richard Wright

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 08:15 PM

Wow, Richard. I'll have to go look them up. They sound similar in behavior to Komondorik--a white "corded" Eastern European guard dog. Do you know Komondorik? Are they really similar?

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 08:21 PM

Akbash site Now I'm more wow!!! No, they don't look at all like Komondorik--they look more like Great Pyrenees, but according to the site require a LOT less grooming. If I had sheep or needed a serious herding dog, I would definitely look into this. I mostly agree about the Kennel club stuff--seems they only want the dogs to "look nice". Ability is out the window in the conformation ring.

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 08:22 PM

He mentioned the Komondor Sorcha.

Interesting stuff Richard!!! Great post. Akbash Info

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 08:24 PM

Cross posting here aren't we? I agree the dog is similar in appearance to the Great Pyrenees.......very pretty dog too.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 08:34 PM

(hi pat)

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 09:36 PM

You guys are amazing! If I was back in college, I'd just post the title of my Doctoral Thesis and let you guys write it for me. In honesty, sometimes I get suspicious that someone IS using Mudcat to write their thesis. Back when I worked at a Museum, I'd get letters from kids asking stuff like "Tell me everything you know about space." Of course, I wrote back and said, "it's empty." I'd get these frantic phone calls when a paper was due the next morning, asking me to essentially dictate their paper over the phone. I have learned twenty times as much as I needed to know in this thread, but not a word more than I've wanted to know.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 09:53 PM

If nothing else, the thread eventually wound it's way around to Richard's posting which seems to be the most likely dog (and some of the similar breeds) that shpherds in that part of the world may have used. It also has tended to confirm the differesnces between herding and guarding with herding coming along at a much later date. If I were writing your book, I'd suggest the Akbash to your illustrator anyway.

Yeah, it ain't folk music, but find me too many other places where this kinda' stuff happens..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 11:20 PM

It does seem likely that guard dogs were more usual than the collie type in the Palestinian area 2000 years ago; from Canaan dogs to the Anatolian dogs discussed by Richard W. We will probably never know for sure. Did the Egyptians embalm dogs as well as cats and primates? If so, some evidence might be there. The border collie in part seems to have been spread by the Vikings, but no one knows where this type was first bred.
I have had personal contact with only one Great Pyrenees. It was owned by a country hotel keeper. It had a habit of sneaking up on one, sitting on one's feet, and leaning back in order to receive attention. It became more wary when one of the guests who was a dog trainer taught it a few lessons beginning by stepping on its paws. I understand they are primarily working dogs.
The Komondor is becoming popular with what I call the ranchette crowd. Breeders are softening its temperament and some strains may lose their guard ability. The Kuvasv was one of the first (I think) of these guard type dogs from eastern Europe to be used in the western states. Now I am seeing it in the western cities.
Aristotle in 300 BC mentioned dogs of different breeds from different areas, but did not describe them.

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: GUEST,MudDog
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 05:27 AM

Just thought that might be a pretty kewl nick.
**BG**

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 05:37 AM

The Kennel Club, the British one anyway, STINKS. It is a manifestation af all that is worst in Old Boys clubs/trade unions/Freemasons/KKK, you name it. It is run for the benefit of the office bearers and thier chums. At times I wonder if it has anything to do with dog breeding standards, or the welfare of anything except themselves and their own comfortable little closed off world. They mete out justice according to standards set by themselves, and are totally unaccountable in law for thier actions. Anybody who refuses to have anything to do with them is showing exquisite taste and judgement. You may gather from this that I don't like them.End of rant.. Jock

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 12:11 PM

A quick glance through the American Kennel Club list of recognized working dogs shows that there are standards for the Anatolian Shepherd dog, the Komondor and the Kuvasz, all members of the working dog class. The Border Collie was added to the AKC list in 1995 (which I didn't know) so there are standards for it as well (herding dog class).
It looks like all the breeds are being taken into the show ring.

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: richardw
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 08:31 PM

Generally speaking the Komondor(ik) has been considered much more agressive than most other breeds and therefore has caused some problems. They are hard to socialize to humans. And, terrible to groom. Think dreadlocks. Because we had many visitors we had to reluctantly socialize our Akbash to humans. They loved attention, but that was not the idea. Each of these breeds has specific behaviors and uses. Some stay with the flock and won't go after predators, some go out, some patrol, some bark, some fight, etc.

Esau hated our mules when they came near the sheep. Then one day one colicked and fell down. We found her hours later, with Esau curled up beside her, guarding her until we came.

It will be a shame if they have the agressiveness bred out. Most breeders and very fussy where their dogs go. Ours were only sold to those with livestock and over 20 acres. Some we would not sell unless they had over 100 acres. We have 160 and Esau, our male, could cross that in about 30 seconds when on the chase. We only broke that rule once and the dog came back a few months later with teats dragging the ground at 9 months. The pups had been drowned. It took 4 months to get her back in shape and socialized. Then we gave her to a good home.

Our bitch, Suli, will not appraoch humans at all. My wife can get close to her and usually can touch her. I cannot. She will dance and play with me, but only from 10-15 feet distance. She was born on a large sheep ranch in Montana and did not see humans until she was 4 months old.

Somewhere on the web there is a story about the Kuvasz and they appear in a movie. When the Germans moved into Poland (I believe) they had to shoot the dogs as they were so protective of their owners. I'll try to find the link.

A quick story. One of our dogs went to a ranch on the prairies. They were worried because they had a German Shepard and a Rottwiler and cats. Our dog had never seen cats. The Rotty had a habit of catching the cats and throwing them in the air. As our dog arrived he did this. The Akbash ran at him and gave him a hard body block. The cat behavior stopped.

Lots of folks wondered how these docile, sleeping dogs could protect anything. Then something wandered by, a dog, coyaote, raven, and they were on their feet and working.

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 08:45 PM

Bravo!! Richard! I agree 100%! It is tragic to see the usefulness bred out of a breed for the conformation ring/pet market. I have seen this happen with so many breeds......Brittany Spaniel, Irish Setter, Labrador Retriever, Doberman, all the Terriers and many others---hang in and don't let them get to your breed.

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 09:03 PM

Nice rant spaw. We had a border collie from working stock and she was a highly inteligent animal but also quite strong willed and needed a lot of activity. Meg ended up a good dog but I always had the niggle in the back of my mind that she was a working dog and not a pet - just seemed to be there in her nature if that makes sense. IMO, people should think hard before taking one on.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 09:07 PM

Jon, ALL Border Collies are working dogs. ALL Border Collies are bloody minded. If there is no job to do, they will find one and you might not like it. That is why I don't have them. Most herding or working dogs are the same way. Only a few will accept being a "pet". Our Corgis (Pembroke) herd the other dogs here, cats and last summer ducks. Corgis like their "cuddle" though, and a lot of herding/working dogs don't so don't make good pets.

Subject: RE: BS: Origin of Sheep Dogs
From: GUEST,Ellen Minto (UK)
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 10:19 PM

I agree with you about The Kennel Club in England Jock.