Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song

Subject: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: Alice
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 01:32 PM

The lyrics for this song are in the DT, Click Here - HENRY JOY MCCRACKEN. I've searched the forum and found it mentioned in a few discussions, but no thread devoted to the song alone. I think the melody is lovely, as I've received a recording of it on a tape recently. The tune reminds me a bit of The Lakes of Pontchartrain. Anyway, there are several places mentioned in the lyrics that I can't find on my detailed road map of Ireland. They are: Donegore, Cavehill, Garmoyle, and Carmoney Hill. I did find Slemish Mountain. Any information about the places mentioned is appreciated.

---

Lyrics from the Digital Tradition:

HENRY JOY MCCRACKEN
(attributed, variously, to PJ McCall, T.P. Cuming, and the ever-prolific Ann
O'Nymous)

It was on a Beslfast mountain I heard a maid complain
And she vexed the sweet June evening with her heartbroken strain,
Saying, "Woe is me, life's anguish is more than I can dream,
Since Henry Joy McCracken died on the gallows tree.

"At Donegore he proudly rode and he wore a suit of green,
And brave though vain at Antrim his sword flashed lightning keen,
And when by spies surrounded his band to Slemish fled,
He came unto the Cavehill for to rest a weary head.

"I watched for him each night long as in our cot he slept,
At daybreak through the heather to MacArt's fort we crept,
When news came from Greencastle of a good ship anchored nigh,
And down by yon wee fountain we met to say good-bye.

"He said, 'My love, be cheerful, for tears and fears are vain.'
He said, 'My love, be hopeful our land shall rise again.'
He kissed me very fondly, he kissed me three times o'er,
Saying, 'Death shall never part us, my love for evermore.'

"That night I climbed the Cavehill and watched till morning blazed,
And when its fires had kindled, across the loch I gazed,
I saw an English tender had anchored off Garmoyle,
But alas! no good ship bore him away, onto France's soil.

"And twice that night a tramping came from the old shore road.
'Twas Ellis and his yeomen, false Niblock with them strode.
My father home returning the doleful story told,
'Alas,' he said, 'young Harry Joy for fifty pounds is sold.'"

"And is it true," I asked her. "Yes, it's true," she said.
"For to this heart that loved him, I pressed his gorey head.
And every night, still bleeding, his ghost comes to my side.
My Harry, my dead Harry, comes to his promised bride."

Now on that Belfast mountain, this fair maid's voice is still,
For in a grave they laid her high on Carmoney Hill.
And the sad waves beneath her chant requiem for the dead.
The rebel winds shriek freedom above her weary head.

Note: The "fair maid" is most likely Mary Bodle, the mother
of McCracken's child.
@Irish @rebel
filename[ HENRYJO2
MM
oct99

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 03:13 PM

Alice, They are all in County Antrim, North-East Ireland. Slemish Mountain near Ballymena is associated with Saint Patrick. Cavehill overlooks Belfast, this is the where the United Irishmen of 1798 planned their rebellion. Donegore is about 5 miles North-East of Antrim Town, Sir Samuel Ferguson the Poet is buried here. Garmoyle and Carmoney Hill I will locate later, but County Antrim was Henry Joy`s territory. The version of Henry Joy you refer although not as familiar as the more popular version has a much nicer melody. Hope to hear you singing it soon. Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 03:25 PM

Alice, Carnmoney Hill is about three miles nort-west of Newtownabbey. The Belfast Catters will locate Garmoyle. Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: Alice
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 07:16 PM

Thanks, I like the melody you sent me. I'm learning it now, and needed to know more about what I was singing. I assumed the spots were all around Antrim, but could not find them, even on the large map I have. Thanks again.

Alice

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: Fiolar
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 09:40 AM

Alice: There is at present a Garmoyle Street in the dock area of Belfast. The odds are that in Henry Joy's time, the area would have been less built up than now, but it would probably still be a place where loading and unloading ships took place.

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: Jimmy C
Date: 05 Jan 02 - 10:23 AM

That is correct, Garmoyle Street is a part of what is known as "Sailortown" and in 1798 would have been a spot for loading and unloading ships. Unfortunately revelopment in the area has completely changed the landscape of the whole district.

Alice,

Carmoney Hill is just opposite the Cave Hill. Looking down from the Cavehill towards Belfast Lough, Carnmoney hill is to the left. There is a Cemetery there. There are a number of songs about Henry Joy, the one that mentions all the place names in the original query is "It was on a Belfast Mountain". The maid in the song is believed to be a Mary Bodel, Henry Joy often found shelter in her father's cottage. It is said that she bore him a daughter "Maria", a fact that was not revealed to Henry's sister Mary Ann until 2 weeks after his execution. In a letter to Henry Joy's brother Frank who was in Barbados, Mr McCracken (Henry's father) wrote " we got an addition to the family since you were here, It is a little girl, said to be the daughter of poor Harry's, it is brought very much against my inclinations".

Mary Ann McCracken assisted the child's mother and family to immigrate to America. Maria grew up to be the constant companion of Mary Ann McCracken. When older Maria married a William McCleery, and it was in their home that Mary Ann McCracken spent her last years. In the song it says that the maid is buried "on high Carnmoney hill" It is possible that only the Bodel family went to America or else Mary Bodel returned later to Ireland and died there.

For a really clear understanding of 1798 and the Ulster songs associated with that period. you should try to get a copy of " The Summer Soldiers" by A.T.Q. Stewart. it is a detailed report on the rebellion in Antrim and Down.

The Belfast Telegraph newspaper also has a link to the story of the United Irishmen through their website. Lots of good reading there.

slan

Jimmy

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: Alice
Date: 05 Jan 02 - 01:39 PM

Thank you all for the information. I now see on a map of Belfast where Carnmoney is located. In the DT, the lyrics have it spelled wrong (Carmoney instead of Carnmoney). Jimmy, thanks for the book reference.

Alice

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: Big Tim
Date: 06 Jan 02 - 10:50 AM

Anyone know who wrote "Henry Joy"? ( First line: "I pulled my boat in from the sea...")It's been credited to P.J.McCall, T.P.Cuming and William Drennan (to all three individually!). I don't think it's in the style of McCall or Drennan ( I think Drennan prob wrote "Henry Joy McCracken" or "Twas on the Belfast Mountains") (great song). So who DID write "Henry Joy" and who was T.P. Cuming?

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: Big Tim
Date: 06 Jan 02 - 01:57 PM

I can't find Garmoyle on any map ( and I've checked some very detailed ones of Belfast and area). However two refs in Mary McNeill's biog of Mary Anne McCracken: 1. p. 34 "the Pool of Garmoyle" and 2. p.306 " Garmoyle, the deep pool in Belfast Lough ...is called Moore's Hole to the present day". As the River Lagan is mentioned in the first ref this places Garmoyle very close to Garmoyle Street, near Greencastle in N Belfast from where Henry Joy was to rendevous with a ship for America and also near Carickfergus where he was captured on the 7th of July '98. All this ties in in with his final few days of freedom. The name may be derived from "Garbh Mael", "rough hill".

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: Big Tim
Date: 07 Jan 02 - 05:42 AM

Eight refs to Pool of Garmoyle in Bardon's history "Belfast" (1982).

c1770 - "ships had to wait for high tide three miles down the Lough at the Pool of Garmoyle before they could tie up at Donegal Quay". This would place the P of G almost directly opposite Cave Hill.

1797 - after Martial Law was declared in Belfast "In the P of G below Belfast 34 leading [United Irishmen] suspects were held in the hulk "Postlethwaite"

The other refs are mostly relating to the development of Belfast Harbour.

No info on the composer(s) of both Joy songs?

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 07 Jan 02 - 08:14 AM

Think I have details on the authorship somewhere - probably Terry Moylan's book. I'll check.

Regards

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: Big Tim
Date: 07 Jan 02 - 01:16 PM

Martin: Terry Moylan's book? Any bibl details please?

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Jan 02 - 07:24 AM

The Age of Revolution in the Irish Song Tradition 1776-1815, edited by Terry Moylan, is published by Lilliput Press, priced £15.99.

I bought this book on Martin's praise about it here, and each single word of praise is true.

However, the information you are looking for, Big Tim, is not in the book. There are about five songs about Henry Joy in the book. For the one that has the line you cite Moylan gives no author in the notes and a very similar song cites the same three names as possible authors as above.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: Big Tim
Date: 08 Jan 02 - 11:59 AM

Thanks W. and thanks also for "Glasgow Van" lyrics received by PM from Jimmy C. I had actually seen refs to Moylan book before but had somehow managed to overlook it.

Re Henry Joy McC songs, I think the answer is that nobody knows the composers for certain.

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 08 Jan 02 - 05:47 PM

Thanks for checking, Wolfgang. I'll see what other sources might have.

Regards

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: John Moulden
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 05:10 PM

Henry Joy McCracken is definitely by PJ McCall. He based it on a song common on Ballad sheets "The Belfast Mountains" and it was published in "The Shan Van Vocht" a monthly periodical edited from Belfast by Alive Milligan and Ethna Carberry. I don't have the issue number or date by me at present.

I have no idea who wrote the other song, more often called "Henry Joy." Robert Cinnamond had it (being recorded about 1958) but I remember it suddenly arising in the Belfast of the middle sixties and I have never been able to discover whence it came.

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: Alice
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 05:37 PM

Would that be Alice Milligan (not Alive)?

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 04:52 AM

Alice, Alice!

Regards

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: Big Tim
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 04:58 AM

Much thanks for that John, so we can credit McCall with another classic alongside "Boolavogue", "Kelly the Boy From Killanne" and "Follow Me Up to Carlow".

Re the other song "Henry Joy", this is often credited to T.P.Cuming whoever he or she was. A friend was in touch with Fred Heatley recently and FH, now old and quite frail, said that he recalled the song being sent in to and published in the "Irish Weekley" (of which he was I think Editor at the time)in the mid 60s. There might be a clue there. FH suspects that Cuming was simply the name of the person that submitted the song, not the author. Is the "Irish Weekly", indexed John, can you access it?

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 06:10 AM

Fred Heatley ab old friend of many years, wrote a book on Henry Joy in 1967.
The book contains seven songs or poems on Henry Joy, the Henry Joy song which is the one that begins,
"An Ulsterman I am proud to be" was known to Fred for a number of years prior to it becoming popular with the 60s folk boon.
Despite much research he failed to find the author.
A PS, Fred was never Editor of the Irish News, he certainly worked in the offices but not as reporter or Editor. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Henry Joy McCracken, places in the song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 May 17 - 01:08 AM

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