Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?

Subject: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Red Eye
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 09:26 AM

The biggest ever currency change over takes place tonight at 00.01, when twelve EU countries adopt the single currency. Britain is not one of the twelve, but will effect us in an unimaginable way. When we converted to decimal cuurency the education for the country was immense, yet even though the euro can be spent here I have seen no information or my children have had no education in dealing with it. I know it's available on the net but you would think that they would inform us through education etc. The currency will be easier for our American friends to use as it is based on centimes etc, (i think).

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Deckman
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 09:50 AM

I have a good American friend living in London. I've been very curious about this HUGE change. She just e-mailed me a website that I found to be very helpful It is:http//europa.ev.int/euro/htm/entry. I hope this helps. Merry New Year, Bob Nelson, Everett, Wa. USA

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 10:20 AM

€ is this one?

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: nutty
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 10:24 AM

I have a euro sign next to the 4 on my keypad.
You press control and alt as well as the number 4 to acess it
£ $ € £ $ € £ $ €

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 10:35 AM

...same here nutty or press Alt Gr and 4.

The Guardian / Euro

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 10:38 AM

I only scored 3 on the quiz

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 10:40 AM

Unfortunately, my computer hasn't been updated to read the character - it's just a little rectangle. Perhaps it's because I'm using an older (98) version of Windows?

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 10:53 AM

I can get that Jeri, by changing the encoding (under view), from Western European to Unicode, and refreshing the page. Perhaps you cam see a euro sign by selecting Western european (if you have it?) and refreshing. remember what your encoding was set at to change it back aftrwards.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 10:53 AM

Jeri,

Mine (€) works on Win 98.

Paul

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 11:07 AM

Jeri, how is your browser set up. I think you are on IE5? I've played with the view/encoding options. Western European (Windows) - my normal setting displayes the Euro symbol but changing to say Unicode (UTF8) just gives me the square box.

Jon

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 11:20 AM

I've got mine set to Western European (Windows). I tried Western European (ISO) - same thing happened. Unicode makes the box disappear so Paul's post above looks like "Mine ( ) works on Win 98. " Maybe it's my ASCII text that's outdated...

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 12:51 PM

in the Opera browser (which I am in right now), there is a default setting called "automatic detection" under the 'encoding' menu, so it show the Euro symbol just fine. I will look at Netscape(I know I have seen the € symbol in NS)[if you see it, I typed it using 'alt 0128']...(I will NOT look at IE, since using it messes up my newsreader .ini file)

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 12:58 PM

ok, I just opened a small, free browser called K-Meleon and it also displays the Euro ok...must be hardcoded, as I can't find a menu for language prefs.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 01:02 PM

my Netscape (4.75) diplays it ok, and is currently set to Western [ISO-8859-1]

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 01:17 PM

Well, I can view it with Opera 4.02, so there must be something I can change/add/update in MSIE 5. I'll just have to mess around with it.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Red Eye
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 05:03 PM

Yip€€€€€€€€€€.

I am now a true European.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 05:08 PM

What do people here think about the Euro? Personally, I think it's pity to homogenise currency this way; but then I still regret the loss of shillings, et al. I don't like to see bits of (even financial) cultural heritage wiped out in the interest of greater convenience. I'd rather spend a little extra time figuring out the various exchange rates of lira and francs than have it all boiled down this way.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 05:27 PM

In MS Office 2000's version of Word the shortcut (on an American keyboard in the Times New Roman and other text fonts) is alt + cntrl + E = €

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: GUEST,NH Dave
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 06:00 PM

Somehow I had thought that Great Britain was going under the Euro as well and had thoughts of posting a letter to a bank on both Man and the Channel Isles asking them to send me a Manx/Guernsey/Jersey pound and five pound note, and one or two of there larger denomination coins, 50 pence for example. It would make a nice souvenir of my time over there shortly after Decimalization.

Dave

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 06:45 PM

I heard that the Buckingham Palace gift shops are refusing to accept Euros, no matter what...true?..or just another hoax?

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 Jan 02 - 04:42 AM

The Euro is not an accepted coin of currency here in the UK. It is entirely up to the shopowner if they wish to accept it, but I'd say 99% won't. Hell, we have enough trouble getting them to take Scottish paper money!

The Inland Revenue will accept returns done in Euros, if the company is foreign owned, or subject to double taxation in another country.

As for the banks, they will accept and provide Euros as foreign currency, but are still a bit dubious about taking them for British. The only advantage is, you could probably argue the case for depositing them directly into your bank account, rather than exchanging them, but again, that is dependant on the particular bank.

LTS

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Red Eye
Date: 01 Jan 02 - 04:46 AM

Went to get a paper this morning and, for a laugh, asked the newsagent if he'd accept Euro's. He said YES.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 Jan 02 - 05:00 AM

Ah, so HE'S the one percent!!!

LTS

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Red Eye
Date: 01 Jan 02 - 05:43 AM

'The Euro is not an accepted coin of currency here in the UK'. So if I go into a car dealer today or any instituition where money is the name of the game and want to pay in Euros they wpuld turn me away. Money talks Liz, whatever colour it is.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 01 Jan 02 - 06:04 AM

Here you can get a Euro Currency Screen Saver (think I'll give that a miss) and download the Euro Font
Clicki€

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 01 Jan 02 - 06:10 AM

Not sure if I like look of the notes

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: cyder_drinker
Date: 01 Jan 02 - 05:03 PM

No Eurinal key on my keyboard. And I don't want one, thanks.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 01 Jan 02 - 05:12 PM

There is a € against the letter E on my keyboard which types as é. Alt Gr 4 (thanks Roger) works on some applications but not others. I'm not sure that I care enough to spend time trying to get that sorted.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 02 - 06:11 PM

Since $10 = about €11 I think we'd do better to call them eurodollars anyway. Dollars started out as a European currency anyway. Though I'd prefer the Latin expression, and call them euroquids.)

I can't see many shopkeepers refusing euros if it means losing trade. What they'll do is accept them, but at a rate that gives them as big a profit as they can get. "Two euros to the pound, squire, as a favour to you."

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Jan 02 - 06:50 PM

I am old enuf to remember decimilisation in the UK
It was the biggest cause of inflation ever.

I have no doubt that the UK will go over to the Euro, and the sooner the better, but what frightens me is the way this will be used to drive up prices.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 Jan 02 - 07:38 PM

I remember Decimalisation too... that's why I don't want the Euro!!

What is the point of a common currency when we don't have a common economic system? Until that happens, there is no point. Why have a Euro that is worth 60 pence here, but more in Germany or less in France? Prices will rise rather than drop to come into line with each other, and the losers will be everyone except the traders who jack up prices because people don't understand the exchange rates.

If you went to a car dealer in the UK today to try and pay in Euros for a new car you'd be stupid.... cars are far cheaper in Europe and that INCLUDES the import duty and taxes, whether they are in Francs, Marks, Euros or Lire...... although whether that will remain the case as per my former comment here, is another point in question....

LTS

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Jan 02 - 08:04 PM

Some people with newer software (Office 2000, etc) seem not to have a problem. For those of us stuck with "old" stuff, the following may be helpful.

The "euro" character is UNICODE character number (hex) 20AC. This is decimal number 8364.

You can post the character in http (on mudcat) using the character encoding € or €

As € it should look like €.
As € it should look like €.

If you don't see a sort of a "capital C" with two little "bars" through it, the following may help.

Generally, the character "identity" is preserved - on mudcat, on the web generally, and even if you paste the text into your favorite word processor.

The character will be visible only if it is defined in the font you are using to view the web page or document. If you see little squares, dots, asterisks or some other kind of "splat" glyph, it merely means that the font you are using to represent the "intelligence" that someone posted simply does not know how to "draw" character number x20AC (8364).

Whether you are using US English, European English, Unicode, or some other "general setting" has little directly to do with whether you see the character.

A quick survey of fonts that I have on my machine shows that relatively few "popular standard" fonts can display the "euro" symbol. All of the fonts that I found containing the euro symbol are TrueTypes. This probably just means that most of my Adobe fonts are getting old.

Setting your display font selection to one of the following may pop the euro symbol up - if you have the same font versions I do (Win98 and Office97, generally).

(As I have not checked the full character sets for any of these, it is possible that setting one of these as your display font could make some other things disappear, so keep track of your original settings so you can go back if needed.)

In the font versions I have, the following include the "euro" character: Albertus Extra Bold or Albertus Medium
Antique Olive
Arial Black
Book Antiqua
Century Gothic
CG Omega or CG Times
Clarendon Condensed
Comic Sans MS
Complex
Coronet
Courier New (Including Baltic, CE, Cyr, Greek, Tur extended Courier New)
Gothic E, Gothic G or Gothic I
Greek C or Greek S
Helvetica Narrow
Impact
ISOCP, ISOCP2, ISOCP3, ISOCT, ISOCT2, or ISOCT3
Italic, ItalicC or ItalicT
ITC Avante Garde Gothic or ITC Avante Garde Demi
ITC Bookman, ITC Bookman Demi, ITC Bookman Light
ITC Zapf Chancery
Letter Gothic
Lucida Console
Marigold
Monotxt
New Century Schoolbook
OCR B MT
Palatino
RomanC, RomanD, RomanS, or RomanT
ScriptC or ScriptS
Simplex
Tahoma
Txt
Univers, or UniversCondensed
Verdana

If you want to change your font selection to something you can use generally - that includes this symbol, Palatino might be a good alternate to a Times type of serif font. Century Gothic is not too bad as a sanserif replacement for Arial or Helvetica.

John

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: MudGuard
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 04:34 AM

John, whether € is shown as the Euro symbol also depends on whether the HTML viewer knows about this entity. Some (very old) browsers might not...

On older systems with older versions of the fonts listed, the Euro symbol might still be missing.

MudGuard (who has not only an Euro symbol on his keyboard - AltGr+e but also real Euro in his pocket)

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: vindelis
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 09:06 AM

Personally I can't afford the Euro. If the French have had to cope with 17% inflation - in twelve months; and the Irish have had their currency devalued by 30% in 7 years, how can it possibly be a good thing? Unless you are somebody with more money than sense.

We in the UK would have had to deal with inflation of 13%; ie paying 70p for something that at the close of trading in December was only worth 60.99p.

Ever been had?

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Red Eye
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 10:38 AM

We dont care about the £. This morning on BRITISH TV there was two examples of commentators revealing how much people earn in a European country and converted it into DOLLARS?? Why?? I'ts as hard for me to relete to wages/cost in dollars as it is in Euro's.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 11:52 AM

Red Eye,

You'll learn how to do it soon enough...

I'm looking forward to listening to the right wing 'little englanders' like Wurzel when we finally lose the pound.

Should be entertaining! *grin*

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Ringer
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 12:11 PM

Why should you think, nameless Guest, that those against Britain adopting the common currency are either right-wing or little Englanders? As far as I can see, those agin it come from all sides of the political spectrum (is Tony Benn right wing?), and (speaking for myself) we're agin it not for any nationalistic reason but because we don't want to give away control of our economy to unelected bureauocrats in Frankfurt.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 12:28 PM

Bald Eagle,

The previous post was from me. I'm not able to use cookies on this computer, and I forgot to sign the message.

Whilst it's true that there are people across the political spectrum who are not in favour of the Euro, I'm sure you'd accept that the majority are on the right of the spectrum.

I really have this arguement of "giving up control to unelected bureaucrats".

Isn't that what Labour did when they came to power, and which now every mainstream political party admits was a very good idea?

Worrying about the fact that the decisions will be made in Frankfurt is simply xenophobia. No more.

I've never quite understood how those on the right can be so against devolution (bigger is better) but so against the euro (smaller is better) at the same time.

Unless of course the Union is of some special size, that is best

London and Manchester would probably like different interest rates too. Should we have a different currency for each city?

Paul [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Ringer
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 12:47 PM

I don't want to argue the left/right issue, because it's not important at the moment. However...

Isn't that what Labour did when they came to power, and which now every mainstream political party admits was a very good idea? Yes, but Gordon Brown is quite capable of taking back control of interest-rates from the MPC if it suits his purpose. There is no escape clause from the common currency, as far as I understand it.

London and Manchester would probably like different interest rates too. Should we have a different currency for each city? So you understand that argument, anyway. If a single interest-rate for London & Manchester is a problem, why worsen the situation by insisting on the same rate from Helsinki to Madrid, Dublin to Berlin?

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 02:58 PM

I'm not convinced that individually tailored interest rates are as important as the 'anti' lobby make out.

The USA seem to do fine with decisions made by the Federal Reserve.

To be honest, I'm not an economist, and I think that very few of us really know enough about this to make a fully rational decision on it.

What really gets me, is the view that we will be giving up our sovereignty to Germany, which is so far from the truth that it's laughable.

If we could have the arguement without xenophobic bias, or comments about not using 'monopoly money' we might get a lot further.

Personally, I think it's inevitable that we'll join. I just hope we don't leave it to late to influence important decisions or lose our place as a major world financial centre.

Paul

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 03:32 PM

Too bad, Red Eye. A few more years and the Euro dollar and the US dollar will be standardized as one currency. Then all the prices can be adjusted upward(s) once again.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 03:45 PM

And a few years after that, H.G. Wells' vision of a 'world government' may come to fruition.

Hey, it works in 'Star Trek' *grin*

It's a damn shame that I'll only get 3 score years and 10. (plus hopefully a bit more)

I'd love to see how the world develops over the next 500 years...

Paul

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 07:53 PM

It seems to me that the real value of the Euro is simply to have one form of currency in this age of travel and internet buying. It is not really relevant whether the financial situation is better in Germany or Ireland. Here in the US we all use the dollar, but it may well take a lot more dollars to buy gas, or autos..etc...in New York than it does in Alabama.

There will always be better bargains one place than another, just as with 14 national currencies...but now they don't have to juggle daily conversion rates and money. The price can rise or fall, as it will, but it will sure be easier to tell at a glance whether you should buy that toaster in Belgium or the UK.

Most of the gut reaction, it seems to me, is just 'liking what one is familar with'.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 09:09 PM

"Why have a Euro that is worth 60 pence here, but more in Germany or less in France?" It doesn't work like that. The Euro is worth the same all over - but what it would show up is the way prices in English shops and so forth tend to be so much higher than in other countries in Europe for all kinds of things, from cups of coffee and hotels to motor cars.

And no doubt there are examples where you can quote the opposite, but that doesn't really change anything. The point is the rip-off merchants are going to find it a little bit harder to get away with it than they do now. Especially with the Internet available.

It strikes me having a common currency is just convenient. Going back to the way it always used to be. It's the wrong issue. Now having some pillocks in government, any government try to tell us what weights and measures to use - that's far more important, and the people who just rolled over on that are now the ones who claim to be so worried about the euro. Once the single European Act was signed by Thatcher's lot the rest is just tidying up the mess.

Local currencies like "Lets schemes" - that's the way to go for anybody who is seriously interested in resisting centralisation, and the right level for decentralising isn't big nation states, it's regions or even smaller.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: GUEST,hrothgar
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 03:23 AM

And here's silly me thinking that a euro is a rock wallaby, also known as a wallaroo.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Ringer
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 04:26 AM

You're a little less coherent than usual in your last post above, McGrath, particularly in paragraph-3. What do you mean? Just when was this common currency that you describe as the way it always used to be? I agree with you about weights and measures, incidentally: the convenience of Lb (for example) is evidenced by the colloquial useage of "livres" in France, even though these are now 500g.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 06:24 AM

As for the Buckingham Palace shops, here's what they say officially:
Buckingham Palace says: "It's purely a business decision. Retail outlets at official residences have never accepted other currencies. "The shops are not geared up to deal with currency exchange - this is not an anti-European decision."

As for only 1% of shops in Britain accepting the Euro, that may still be true for the whole of Britain on a shop count basis. It is far from true for London (if I may trust our newspapers) and those shops accepting Euros are the largest on a turnover basis. Look here for a 2nd of January news report of the ready acceptance of the Euro in London (maybe the link only works for a short time).

As for prices going up with the Euro, the opposite is true for Germany, but that may be only due to our fortunate exchange rate (1.95..). The catch-the-eye prices of e.g. 1.98 Marks don't go down to the 'correct' 1.01 Euro, they often go down to 0.99.

Since high prices in one €(Euro) country are no longer protected by money conversion losses the expectation is that on the long run prices will go down due to increased competition.

Since I've seen the neologism 'euronate' a couple of times here, may I cite another neologism describing the ready and very quick acceptance of the new currency in Germany:
Europhoria

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 08:19 AM

In Ireland, the change has gone with complete, boring efficiency. The attitude here is:

* A common currency for all 300 million Europeans will mean prices are transparent across Europe

* Travelling to neighbouring countries won't mean we have to pay expensive bank charges each time we change currency, carry two or more wallets of different currencies, become confused about how much things cost, etc, etc

* It's the first time since the Roman Empire that all of Europe will have the same currency

* On the other hand, all of the countries of Europe have given up their right to set their own currency rates, effectively devolving their power over their industries to the Central European Bank, which some regard as crazy.

By the way, a lot of the big British retailers - shops like Marks & Spencer, for instance - said they will accept both euros and sterling.

The British are going a bit cracked about it all. I can understand getting sentimental about a lot of things, but money...?

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Ringer
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 10:17 AM

We seem to be unable to discuss the euro without the "Goody, goody: I'll be able to save a couple of quid in currency commission when I go on holiday" attitude coming to the fore. I've said it before (eg Click Here, for example) and I'll say it again: European EMU (of which the common currency is a part) is primarily a political, not an economic, process. On December 3, Romano Prodi, the president of the European Commission, reiterated, "This is not an economic process; it is a political process."

I'm convinced that the economic benefits of Britain joining form a negative sum (ie to join is to our economic disadvantage on balance), but even if there were economic benefits the political disadvantages should keep us out. Look what's going on at the moment, for instance: Wim Duisenberg was made (elected? appointed? who knows?) President of the European Central Bank about 4 years ago. At the time, stories abounded that the French were upset that their candidate for the job, Claud Trichet, hadn't got it, but that they'd secretly reached agreement that WD should resign half way through his 8-year term to make way for CT. They're now looking for the payoff - and why? So that the French can control Germany's monetary policy, that's why. Quote from today's Daily Telegraph: The European Union monetary affairs commissioner Pedro Solbes offered his backing to Wim Duisenberg yesterday, drawing attention to EU treaty provisions which established an eight-year term for presidents of the European Central Bank. Brushing aside speculation that Mr Duisenberg has secretly agreed to stand down this year in favour of a French replacement, Mr Solbes said: "The treaty is there to be complied with. As far as I know, Mr Duisenberg was nominated for an eight-year period.". This is typical of the European "Union": no-one puts Europe first, all seek advantages for their own Nations.

So, all you gobe-mouches who can't see beyond your next European holiday, can we have some political arguments, please? Tell me why you don't mind seeing ancient rights such as Westminster's supremacy, Habeus Corpus, trial by jury, control of our own economy, etc, surrendered.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 11:34 AM

Incoherent, Bald Eagle? Well, a couple of commas, and a new sentence to break up one that was maybe a bit long, and it seems pretty coherent to me:

"It strikes me having a common currency is just convenient. Going back to the way it always used to be. It's the wrong issue. Now, having some pillocks in government, any government, try to tell us what weights and measures to use - that's far more important. The people who just rolled over on that are now the ones who claim to be so worried about the euro. Once the single European Act was signed by Thatcher's lot, the rest is just tidying up the mess."

"The way it always used to be" - that means way back when all the fragments of Europe shared a common currency, gold, even though the coins would have different symbols printed on them.

I just don't think the currency is the right ground on which to fight centralisation. Excessive and irrelevant centralisation can be imposed even with a fragmented currency, and decentralisation could be achieved even with a common currency. Americans wouldn't put up with a lot of the centralising tendencies of the European system. It isn't the euro in itself that threatens things like Habeas Corpus.

"Subsidiarity" is supposed to be a fundamental element in how the European Union works, and that is supposed to mean decisions taken at the lowest possible level - a lot lower than the nation state for a lot of things. That's what we should be working towards achieving and developing, whichever part of Europe we are living in.

The daftest thing was the news, with tourists returning from Europe being interviewed on the subject "How easy did you find to use the new notes?" they were asked. "Well, we found it quite straightforward really."

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 12:27 PM

Alors tiens!

I like having a common currency with my neighbours. If they try to get me into their army I'll shoot them. My own government is much fonder of snatching away rights than Europe is - and my British neighbours' government is fonder still of depriving its citizens of rights.

By the way, did anyone notice that the Americans are proposing to demand biometric passports - with fingerprints or other genetic ID - of all incomers? If they do that I won't be visiting America, or knowingly buying any goods from American companies again.

Now, we were talking about freedom, or was that money?

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 12:31 PM

Try as they might the British media could not find a fault with the very smooth changeover to the Euro. C`mon you limeys, throw away your wee Union Jacks and join the real World. Patsy Richbitchksi.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Red Eye
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 01:13 PM

Got to admit after following this thread that the Euro is for me.

eg:

Looking to buy a new RHD BMW, Germany €20,000, France €23,000, Ireland €29,000, Italy €27,000,

Just an example of how I can compare prices with other nations for the SAME car. This will also relate to other goods in a retailing outlet. The customer will go where the price is best and they are all on a level playing field. If a country keeps it's economic house in order that will relate to the prices being offered to the consumer and lead to an increase in business for that country.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 03:40 PM

yup, Red Eye...sorta what I said back up ^ there, and a couple have repeated in various ways..... It just allows easy comparison and exchange

By the way JTT...in regard to "By the way, did anyone notice that the Americans are proposing to demand biometric passports - with fingerprints or other genetic ID - of all incomers? If they do that I won't be visiting America, or knowingly buying any goods from American companies again.".......I do wonder what you'd suggest that America should be allowed to do for protection?

We are a huge, fairly open country that has become a popular target for hate & terror. We don't think that those who wish to kill & destroy should be given easy access, but mind reading at checkpoints seems to still be unavailable.

We are in danger largely because we HAVE been open and welcoming...we can't keep everyone out, and we dare not let everyone in! Do you have a suggestion for screening that is fair, yet useful?.........

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 05:45 PM

Most of the people who kill Americans tend to be Americans. Most of the violent maniacs and fanatics in America tend to be Americans. That's not picking on Americans, it's the same for pretty well any other country. If biometric identity stuff or whatever is seen as the only way to stop terrorism, it's no good just saving it for incomers.

I assume if thye are planninhg to bring in that kind of thing for incomers, that'sjust a way of softening-up people, before is introduced for your native population.

Whatever we do about frontiers, in Europe or America, the truth is it's just one permeable world.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 06:10 PM

To me the scarry thing for all of us Americans who have various left-over European currencies from our vacations. I've got, let's see... 2 marks, 12 francs, 1 Irish pound, 50,000 lire (WOO-HOO - 50,000!), 19 drachma, and more.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Ringer
Date: 04 Jan 02 - 04:29 AM

I see that the British press today is full of a story which backs up what I said above. Gus O'Donnell, the Treasury's chief of macro-economic policy (!), and the guy who'll be responsible for assessing the famous "5 tests", is reported as having said that economic tests can never be clear and unambiguous, and that any decision will be based on political, not economic, criteria.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 04 Jan 02 - 07:58 AM

I sent a test email from Eudora on my Mac to Outlook on a work PC, and the Mac Eudora euro sign (option-shift-2) didn't come through to Outlook; nor did it come through when I copied the email into Word. It'll be interesting to see what programs can handle it.

What do I think Americans should be allowed to do? Well, people should be able to buy duty-free *at the port of entry*, not the port of exit, so bottles aren't carried on planes, for a start.

All baggage should be properly checked, and there should be a limit on the amount people can carry on a short flight - people using planes like buses should carry only hand-luggage.

Seats should face backwards, which is safer in a crash. Seatbelts should be augmented by airbags.

Really mad-seeming people like the poor soul arrested trying to blow up his shoes, who even to me as a non-expert is clearly as crazy as a kish of coots, should be checked a little more thoroughly.

The level of checking currently done on planes is made clear by yesterday's British claim that an average 20 passengers on every flight from Jamaica are carrying drugs, with an average flight carrying dozens of kilos of cocaine.

Apart from this, I think America seriously needs to rethink its economic and political policies. Now, don't think I want people bombing and hurting Americans, indeed I do not, and grieve for those who died on September 11. But the middle-class, nicely-brought-up boys who are turning into suicide bombers are not doing so for no reason - but because they believe that America is a terrible political and economic entity which does great harm.

Now, back to the euro?

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 02 - 09:20 AM

What's scary about that Blackcatter? If there are sizeable amounts of money, you just pay them in to the bank and they'll change them. It it's just small change, pass them across to some charity which is collecting it with a view to doing the same.

Up till the end of February there shouldn't be any hassles at all about changing the money. After that it shouldn't be hard up until the end of the year - for example Bureaux de Change in British Airports will change currencies up till December 31st. After that itll be harder, but there'll be arrangements to allow for hoards of the old banknotes turning up in Granny's old rocking chair.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Ringer
Date: 04 Jan 02 - 10:04 AM

"Criticism of the European Union is akin to blasphemy and could be restricted without violating freedom of speech," - Advocate-General at the European Court of Justice (in case C-274/99)

The self-inflated arrogance of these posturing buffoons takes my breath away. It would be laughable were it not so dangerous. The procedings of this case, incidentally, were not published in English by the EU. I hazard a guess that it was because they were aware of the furore it would cause in Britain.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jan 02 - 11:14 AM

For those who want to judge themselves:

European court case C-274/99 (in English, by the way)

Look it up, read the case, search for 'blasphemy' and you'll see that Bald Eagle's citation is (1) far from being verbatim and (2) not even a fair summary of what was said.

Wolfgang

--- Link fixed. ---
---Jeff (PA)---

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 02 - 12:53 PM

That quote from the Advocate General - there are pillocks like that in every government in every country. Real politics is about organising to get rid of them, and it has to be done repeatedly, like flies in the kitchen. I can't see how any law trying to ban people from criticising the European Union could stand up in court any more in Europe than it would, in America.

Unless of course the court was packed with bent and subservient judges, as can happen. But that kind of thing is probably easier to achieve in a nation state anyway. (An Advocate General is a lawyer, not a judge. Lawyers are there to try to twist the law to suit their clients, and that includes government lawyers.)

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 02 - 02:25 PM

Netscape would not display the URL Wolfgang posted and cut off the rest of the thread, I presume there was some flaw in it...I copied and pasted it from 'view source'...lets see if it works

European court case C-274/99

here is the rest of his post, which was blinking in 'view source'

"Look it up, read the case, search for 'blasphemy' and you'll see that Bald Eagle's citation is (1) far from being verbatim and (2) not even a fair summary of what was said."
Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 02 - 02:36 PM

Well, Opera gave me the rest of the thread, with the 'missing' parts still missing, but although the URL is now posted, it is not replying. "document contains no data" ..sorta like Mudcat on occasion...

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Hawker
Date: 04 Jan 02 - 02:46 PM

Well Bugger me! Yes I Have!!!! I was convinced that I wouldn't have such a key and to be honest I wasn't really too worried! I am still in feet and inches, pounds and stones etc.!!!!
Lucy

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 02 - 02:46 PM

Here is a link to the court's judgement in that case which puts a different slant on the affair.

The court ruled that a public servant writing a book about the organisation they are employed by, in this case the European Commission, has to ask permission before doing so, and that the bloke in this case had not done so and was therefore at fault.

However it also said that if he had asked permission it would probably have been illegal for the Commission to have refused permission, even if it had wanted to.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jan 02 - 03:35 PM

It feels awful to make a mistake and due to that mistake being even not able to post about it in that thread. Thanks for the help, Bill, and thanks to Pene who has restored my ability to post here.

My link doesn't work for me now, but thanks to McGrath you now can read the press release about the judgement and if I don't mess up again the actual judgement in that case (which of course has been translated into English as is any opinion in those cases contrary to what Bald Eagle has stated).

I had found the English translation of the opinion of the advocate general in that case (which I tried to link to above) and I can only say that in this case the reporting of parts of the British press is to blame completely. The applicant, Connolly, was the one who introduced a blasphemy case in his appeal in order to argue that except in cases of blasphemy the right of free speech cannot be restricted.

The advocate general had to respond to that argument brought forward by the applicant. I have seen nothing remotely similar in content to the above citation. In contrary, he upheld explicitely the general right of any person to criticise openly the European commission or its decisions.

Mr. Connolly, however, was an employee openly and harshly criticising his employer and was dismissed for that critique. That is what the case was about with the additional twist that the critique titled The Rotten Heart of Europe · The Dirty War for Europe's Money was published during a short leave for personal reasons.

I wonder how the Britsh press might react if a high ranking employee of the British government would publish during a short leave a book The rotten heart of Downing Street openly criticising by name several sectretaries and the Prime Minister and their decisions and would then sue against his dismissal with the argument that only blasphemy is forbidden and Blair isn't God and therefore can be criticised by anybody at any time.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jan 02 - 05:16 PM

It is a bit difficult to find in a local server of the EC and perhaps that's why the link doesn't work as I wanted. I'll try again: Opinion of Advocate General Colomer in Case C-274/99P.

In case it doesn't work here are parts of the opinion of Colomer including each single sentence with the word(s) 'blasph...' in it:

Whilst on leave, Mr Connolly published a book entitled The Rotten Heart of Europe - The Dirty War for Europe's Money without requesting prior permission as required by the second paragraph of Article 17 of the Staff Regulations....

Freedom of expression is one of the fundamental pillars of any democracy. As the Court of Human Rights has stated in one of the finest passages found in its case-law: 'Freedom of expression constitutes one of the essential foundations of [a democratic society], one of the basic conditions for its progress and for the development of every man. Subject to paragraph 2 of Article 10, it is applicable not only to information or ideas that are favourably received or regarded as inoffensive or as a matter of indifference, but also to those that offend, shock or disturb the State or any sector of the population. Such are the demands of thatpluralism, tolerance and broadmindedness without which there is no democratic society....

It seems to me beyond doubt that the disciplinary measure imposed on the appellant, in so far as it is founded partly on his failure to obtain permission prior to publication, constitutes, in principle, an interference with his right to freedom of expression understood in the general sense....

Like the appellant, I turn, by way of illustration, to the judgment of the Court of Human Rights in Wingrove v United Kingdom. (5) On that occasion the Court had to consider whether the refusal of a distribution licence for a video, which was considered to be blasphemous, interfered with the right to freedom of expression upheld in Article 10 of the Convention. It appears from the judgment that English law defined the offence of blasphemy in the following terms: 'Every publication is said to be blasphemous which contains any contemptuous, reviling, scurrilous or ludicrous matter relating to God, Jesus Christ or the Bible, or the formularies ofthe Church of England as by law established. (6) The imprecision of that definition did not hamper the Court of Human Rights in forming a view as to foreseeability. On the contrary, it acknowledged that the national authorities needed sufficient flexibility to enable them to assess whether certain facts fell within the definition of the offence....

Furthermore, the Court of Human Rights has somewhat softened its approach when assessing whether an objective is legitimate, analysing a breach of the Convention by reference to, in particular, whether it is necessary in a democratic society. It is sufficient to turn once again to Wingrove, in which the Court of Human Rights held that the offence of blasphemy, which was by its definition discriminatory in that it was limited to protecting the Anglican church and its beliefs, pursued an aim which undoubtedly corresponded to the 'protection of the rights of others within the meaning of Article 10(2)....

Furthermore, as the defendant has pointed out, the Commission, in punishing Mr Connolly's conduct in accordance with the second paragraph of Article 17, was acting not as a public body protecting its reputation against a member of the public but as the employer of an official who has breached his duty of loyalty and rendered himself liable to disciplinary measures....

It is thus clear that the Court of First Instance, when considering whether the disciplinary measure of removal from post, so far as it was based on Article 17 of the Staff Regulations, was compatible with the requirements of freedom of expression, took account of relevant and adequate reasons and rightly found that the measure was proportionate....

I must start by saying that I share the appellant's aversion to rules which, more or less directly, entail the general imposition of pre-publication censorship. In my opinion, censorship may be justified only in those exceptional cases in which the misuse of freedom of expression may give rise to serious prejudice - serious in the sense of being intolerable from society's point of view - which is, moreover, irreparable....

It must be pointed out, furthermore, that contrary to what may be inferred from the appellant's submissions, the Court of Human Rights has not declared unlawful, as contrary to the Convention, even rules which result in the creation of systems of real censorship. I refer again to the legislation considered in Wingrove. The grant in the United Kingdom of a distribution licence - which could be refused if, inter alia, the video in question contravened criminal law, including the law against blasphemy - did not exempt its owner from any liability whatsoever. However, the Court of Human Rights confined itself to ruling, confirming the point of view expressed in its judgment in the case of Observer and Guardian v United Kingdom, (16) that 'the fact that the present case involves prior restraint calls for special scrutiny by the Court. (17) In addition, in the latter judgment the Court of Human Rights had declared 'for the avoidance of doubt that Article 10 does not of itself prohibit all pre-publication restrictions....[that is the closest in content I have found to the citation above, Wolfgang]

I have read by now a couple of articles in the British press published at that time and I have found sentences very close or identical to what Bald Eagle has posted. I must say that I am not impressed by the ability of those journalists to summarise adequately what has been read. The opinion read was in Spanish and it should be common knowledge among journalists reporting from 'Europe' that translations to all other languages are often not available before some days have passed (in cases of staff shortage: weeks). The journalists reporting these cases should either have the ability to read the language of a particular proceeding (the language that will be used is know beforehand) or at least the ability to refind later an English translation and correct their reports then. What I could find in 15 minutes (without any knowledge before I started) should not be too difficult to trace for a journalist.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: GUEST,hrothgar
Date: 04 Jan 02 - 08:32 PM

Yes, Wolfgang, we are familiar with that, but do you have a Euro key on your keyboard?

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 04 Jan 02 - 08:42 PM

€ uugh where did that come from!!

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Big John
Date: 05 Jan 02 - 12:52 PM

I recently purchased an EPIPHONE guitar. People who see the Epiphone logo on the guitar mistake it for a € sign.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Jan 02 - 11:22 AM

Where it (€) came from?

Look for a big view of it

Arthur Eisenmenger, the then chief designer of the EEC, has designed it for the EEC in the early 70s, but with 'Europe' in mind as meaning of this symbol.

Jacques Santer, then president of the European commission, in 1997 introduced the € as a sign for Euro and said it represents a mixture of the greek letter epsilon as a sign for the common civilisatory roots of our countries, the letter E for Europe and two parallel lines indicating stability. Well, that's what politicians usually read from sheets others have written for them at such opportunities.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Ringer
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 10:02 AM

Oh dear, it looks as though I may have been wrong **shame**. I apologise, and thanks, Wolfgang & McGrath, for putting me right. Not easy reading, those decisions, are they? I think I'll continue to read digests in the press (even though I may have to come back here from time to time and apologise when my sources let me down).

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Ringer
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 01:48 PM

But maybe, after a bit of research, not so wrong as all that. OK, "blasphemy" may have been a red-herring, but here's a direct quotation: ...the Court of Human Rights has never accepted the view that a body which is a public authority may not legitimately limit a fundamental freedom in order to protect its reputation. The opposite seems to be the case... When you strip out the double-negative and simplify, what the man is saying is the Court of Human Rights accepts the view that a public authority may limit a fundamental freedom in order to protect its reputation. Thus, there is an opinion within the EU that you are not allowed to libel it. And the opinion doesn't say (even in context) to protect its reputation against unjustified criticism, it appears you can't even tell the truth if that truth tends to lower the EU's reputation.

Oh dear. I confess that within these threads (and elsewhere) I have vilified the EU in a manner calculated to lower its reputation. I have called it corrupt (but it is corrupt), accused it of being run by bureaucrats for bureaucrats (but it is), accused its politicians of being power-mad (but they are) and its institutions and operations of being undemocratic (they certainly are). I shall continue to do so.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 02:35 PM

there is an opinion within the EU that you are not allowed to libel it

Correct, if the 'you' in that sentence is explicitely and solely read as a person on the payroll of the EU. Members of the general public are not meant by that 'you'. So, unless the EU is your employer, Bald Eagle, you may safely call it 'corrupt' and other words. If you happen to have an employer try to imagine how they would react if you'd call them e.g. 'corrupt' in public while mentioning your position as an employee.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 02:46 PM

The EURO key is right next to the ANY key.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Ringer
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 05:15 AM

Wolfgang: "whistle blowing" is not allowed in the EU, then?

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 07:12 AM

Depends on the kind of whistle blowing. I know I'd have a hell of a time if I'd call the administration of my university in general 'corrupt'. I might barely prevent being fired by a quick apology and retraction. But if I'd call one specific person 'corrupt' with good evidence some others still might decide to make my life harder so next time I think twice before whistle blowing, but there would be no court case against me.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Ringer
Date: 27 May 02 - 02:16 PM

Hey, Wolfgang: in your post above (03-Jan-02 - 06:24 AM) you prophesied that prices would go down in Germany with the introduction of euro currency (because of the fortuitous exchange rate). I heard that two out of three Germans now wanted out of the "Teuro" when opinion-polled recently, because prices have increased markedly. What went wrong?

P.S: I used to be Bald Eagle.

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Haruo
Date: 28 May 02 - 03:27 AM

€

Just checking to see if I can do it.

Liland

Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 May 02 - 04:10 AM

What I had seen then correctly was that most of the prices were going down (in supermarkets etc., like in the example from DM 1.99 to 0.99 €). What I hadn't seen then is that those prices that went up went up by a large amount (whereas those going down went down by a small amount).

Prices went up especially in the service sector and in restaurants. All restaurants had waited with the printing of new menues for 1. 1. 2002. In extreme cases the prices went up by nearly factor 2 (the former DM prices became Euro prices).

That's what people have in mind when complaining. When half of the prices go up and the other half go down people recollect those going up. I never have trusted what people have in mind when I can have numbers instead:

The last percentual increase available in Germany averaged across all prices in April 2002 was 1.6% (compared to April 2001). This figure is well within the range of the last years before the Euro.

January 2003 or December 2002, we'll have a couple of surveys on what Germans think after one year about the Euro. I'll post then the results.

Wolfgang