Origins: Reynardine: Info?

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 01:27 AM

No I don't know.

My recollection is that Joe Hickerson's version is that from Flander's et al, 'The New Green Mountain Songster', but the text there is a traditional version of George Sigerson's slightly reworked (and expurgated) version called "The Mountains of Pomeroy", and so it's not really a bona fide traditional version of the 'original' "Reynardine".

Two different tunes for "Reynardine" were published in Irish musical works, c 1805 and 1810.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Garry Gillard
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 03:27 AM

I have four versions of the song on my Reynardine page, plus links to many things referred to in this thread - and the thread itself.

Garry

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Garry Gillard
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 10:33 PM

Sorry. The Reynardine page is here, not there.

Garry

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 12:54 PM

Sorry, I was wrong about the Joe Hickerson version. It's in DT and isn't the one from 'New Green Mountain Songster.'

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:00 PM

I've always wondered if there's any connection between this song and the French character La Reynaudine, a hero of the Hugeonot (Protestant) rebellion against the Catholic monarchy in the 1500's. Apparently lots of "Robin Hood" type stories were told about La Reynaudine, and lots of Hugeonots came over to Britain to escape religious persecution.

It would explain the reference to Reynadine not being "brought up in Venus' train". Hugeonot protestants likened the Catholic emphasis on Mary to the worship of pagan goddesses like Venus. And he says in the song that he's on the run from the "Judge's men" - British judges don't go out looking for people, French judges do.

The song needn't be a translation of a French original, it may have originated in Britain after someone heard a "La Reynaudine" story from a Hugeonot refugee.

Just a thought. We'll probably never know.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: rich-joy
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 05:24 AM

Refresh

I'm rather taken with Crane Driver's comments - and no-one has commented since ... Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 06:25 AM

Elekta, it was Bert Jansch, who recorded his version on "Rosemary Lane" in 1971. This is available on CD from Wooden Hill Recordings (HILLCD 2). The CD is worth it for the guitar intro to this song alone, but has other great songs on it.

I still play Reynardine regularly at our club.

Pete

Subject: reynardine (again)
From: whitefell
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:42 AM

Hello, I'm familiar with this song. Still, I'm not sure, is this a bit of a lycanthropic theme (werewolf or animal)? I've always liked it and the tune,I''m trying to write a short story about a shapeshifter and wonder, would the lyrics be appropriate? patti I know you all have discussed this song before, have looked at the message threads. Still, I wonder if anyone has something new to add. Thanks

Subject: RE: reynardine
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 08:27 AM

Whether or not it was originally intended to be lycanthropic, I prefer to think of it in that way and sing it that way. A great "spooky" song.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 01:38 PM

Someone just asked about who reynardine was, so I refreshed this thread.

My own research into this song has shown that many of the claims about it (eg that Lloyd learned it from Tom Cook) are incorrect. Lloyd himself wrote that he had put his version together from two Irish ones. One of them was certainly Campbell's, and Lloyd changed "his eyes so bright did shine" to "his teeth did brightly shine." Lloyd also recorded two distinct versions of it, one of which did not include this line! Shirley Collins's version followed Lloyd's early recording, while Fairport and most others followed his later one.

It seems certainly to have been most popular in America; authenticated traces of it in English oral tradition are extremely rare, though of course it was published on broadsides on both sides of the Atlantic and both sides of the Irish sea.

My own theory as to the name's origin is that "Reynoldyn" was a traditional name for an outlaw much like "Robin Hood." There was, in fact, a piece of late medieval marginalia that listed members of Robin Hood's band, and included Reynoldyn--the only name in the poem that scholars have not identified with a well-known character of the later ballads. It may be that Reynardine is a late offshoot of this Reynoldyn tradition--as indeed, may be Vulpius's Itialian outlaw Rinaldo Rinaldini. But this is mostly speculation.

What is pretty clear is that Reynardine is not supernatural in most versions of the song, or in the minds of most singers outside of a revival context.

I have more to say on this (I'm working on an article about the song), but maybe I'll shut up now!

Anyway, I hope this satisfies anyone who needs info on this song.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 09:28 PM

Lloyd regularly made contradictory claims about the sources of his material, and I wouldn't care to hazard a guess as to the truth of most of them, whether quoted directly from him or through third parties. In this case, it's certainly true that there are several Irish tunes that are very close indeed to the one he used; I mentioned the one published by Hughes earlier in this discussion, I think, and at least one of the examples in Stanford-Petrie (in yet another thread on the same subject, if I recall correctly) is also very close.

That in itself proves nothing, but I'd agree that a direct English source for the set that he popularised (and which everybody and his or her dog has since recorded, usually insisting that it's about vampires or werewolves or some such nonsense) is extremely unlikely.

Congratulations, incidentally, on being the first person to add anything worthwhile to any of the numerous discussions on this song that we have here, in quite some time.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 04:26 PM

Nerd, would you mind posting your article here once it's finished? Or at least let us know in which publication it is due to appear? I'd like to include a reference to it in my notes. Thanks!

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 01:49 AM

Sure, Susanne.

The initial version will appear in Musical Traditions, an online magazine. I hope that a more detailed version will make into an academic journal before too long, but it often takes a year or so from submission to publication, and I haven't even written it yet!

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 05:57 AM

Musical Traditions- looks very interesting, Nerd!

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 06:15 PM

The Traditional Ballad Index entry is as follows:

NAME: Reynardine [Laws P15]
DESCRIPTION: A lady meets Reynardine (the singer for most of the song). He courts her while bidding her not to reveal his name. He says he has a castle in the forest and that she can reach him by calling him. He then vanishes (?); she warns women against such rakes
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1845 (Journal from the Sharon)
KEYWORDS: courting seduction supernatural warning betrayal
REFERENCES (7 citations):
Laws P15, "Rinordine"
Randolph 99, "Rinordine" (1 text, 1 tune)
Eddy 76, "Rinordine" (1 text)
Combs/Wilgus 113, pp. 143-144, "Ryner Dyne" (1 text)
Huntington-Whalemen, pp. 222-223, "Rinordine" (1 text)
Darling-NAS, pp. 138-139, "Reynardine" (1 text)
DT 341, REYNDINE* REYNDN2*
RECORDINGS:
A. L. Lloyd, "Reynardine" (on Lloyd2, Lloyd3)
Anne Briggs "Reynardine" (on ESFB2, Briggs2*, Briggs3)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
FOUND IN: US(Ap,MW,NE,SE,So) Britain(England(South)) Ireland Canada(Mar)
File: LP15

In addition, it appears in "Maritime Folk Songs", by Helen Creighton (1961), collected from Freeman Young of East Petpeswick, Nova Scotia, and from Berton Young, West Petpeswick, Nova Scotia, in 1952. Freeman Young's version has six verses, Berton Young's has 7. Neither has any sharp teeth: these lines (or approximations thereof) don't appear:

Sun and dark she followed him, his teeth so bright did shine
And he led her over the mountains, that sly bold Reynardine

I'll put on an abc of the tune later, which, close as I can tell (from my limited reading skills), sounds like a relative of the Suffolk tune.

Berton Young said, "Rinordine must have been a dog out walking and met this young lady and put up all this stuff for a bluff. I guess he was something real anyhow." It seems to me that perhaps he was responding to an inquiry from Dr. Creighton about any possible supernatural meaning. And I think when he says "dog" he means young fellow, rather than any foxy reference. Creighton says, "He seems to have little idea of the real character of Rinordine..."

An interesting note: Clary Croft, biographer of Helen Creighton and the one who indexed her collection, does not use the Youngs' tune on his recording "Still the Song Lives On" and doesn't mention that fact -- he uses the "Seeds of Love" tune -- and he has altered the words slightly.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 07:01 PM

Earliest date in The Traditional Ballad Index is usually meaningless

ABCs of tunes "Renardine", c 1805, and "The Mountains High", 1810, can be found in the file T2.HTM at www.erols.com/olsonw

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 02:51 AM

Bruce, I don't see those titles in that file of abcs. Can you clarify?

~ Becky

Subject: Tune Add: RENARDINE and THE MOUNTAINS HIGH
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 12:37 PM

No, I can't explain yet. My ftp software shows all 15 tunes in the file, but my web browser breaks off before the end of the 9th.

X:14
T:Renardine
S:S. Holden, 'Collection of Old Irish Slow Airs', II, c 1805
Q:1/4=120
L:1/4
M:C|
K:G
d/e/4f/4|ge~ed/B/|A3/2G/EG/A/|BBAG|G3:|\
B/c/|dBde/f/|g2fd|e/f/e/d/
Bd|e3B/c/|dBde/f/|g2fd|e/f/e/d/Bd|e3d/e/4f/4|\
geed/B/|~A3/2G/EG/A/|BBAG|G3|]

X:15
T:The Mountains High
S:Mulholland's 'A Collection of Ancient Irish Airs', 1810
Q:120
L:1/4
M:C
K:G
B/c/|dB{d/}cB/A/|G3/2A/E3/2G/|D3/2E/GA/B/|c3B/c/|dBdB/A/|\
G3/2A/EG/E/|D3/2E/GG|G3||A/B/|BGG/A/ B/c/|ddg/f/ e/d/|\
cB/A/GA/B/|c3B/c/|dBdB/A/|G3/2A/EG/E/|D3/2E/GG|G3||]

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 02:34 PM

One can now see the whole file T2.HTM. I had to rewrite the 9th tune. I had used left and right arrowheads to indicate splitting time as 1:3 and 3:1, common for ABCs. However, HTML thinks it owns those arrowheads, and tries to interpret them as start or end of an HTML format specification, and what might happen is unpredictable.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 03:42 PM

Ah, the dreaded HTML strikes again!

Thanks for the fix.

~ Becky

Subject: Tune Add: RINORDINE
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 12 Aug 02 - 10:03 PM

Here's the abc for the Rinordine collected in Nova Scotia by Helen Creighton in 1952, as sung by Freeman Young, East Petpeswick and Berton Young, West Petpeswick.

T:Rinordine
C:Trad.
I:Creighton, Maritime Folk Songs p. 112
Q:1/4=98
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:Am
d|ABA G2 A |E2 D C2 D |E2 D D2 C |
D5 C |D2 E F2 A |(d2B) c2 B |(AB)A (G^F)G |
A5 A |D2 D (FG)A |(dc(B)c2) B |(AB)A (G^F)G |
A5 G |A2 B G2 A |(D3(G)^F)D |(CD)E D2 C |
D5 z |]

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 12 Aug 02 - 10:05 PM

Please note, on the abc of the Nova Scotia melody I've omitted the grace notes.

~ Becky

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From:
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 12:59 AM

Hello,

Just found this thread since I, too, was seeking more info on "Reynardine".

I recall many, many years back that Buffy Ste. Marie had decided that the main character was a vampire, thus the reference to teeth. It does make it more sinister, but I don't know whether there is weight to that argument.

I really liked the explanation about the Hugeonots. That made some of the references in the song much more clear and as the poster - Crane Driver - of that said, the song could have come from someone in England who had only heard about the Hugeonots.

Mary

Subject: Who wrote the music to The Mountains Of Pommeroy?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 05:49 PM

I know that the words were written as a poem by George Sigerson but who wrote the music? I think it was first performed with music on De Danann's A Jacket Of Batteries

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 06:06 PM

You'd be much more likely to get a helpful reply, GUEST-whoever-you-are, if you posted this as a new thread with the heading you used, instead of in this one. (Or, in this case, as well as in this one, since you've already posted here.)

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 02:03 AM

The Sigerson song was called "Thge Mountains of Pomeroy," and was a derivative song from the older "Rinordine" or "The Mountains High." I don't know who wrote the music to Sigerson's version, but tunes were supplied for Reynardine by Herbert Hughes and by oral tradition.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,dandydan
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 10:48 PM

With so much to-do about origins & scorn for revivalist were-foxes in such a small field, perhaps it would be of interest to note that were-foxes (kitsune) are (still) rampant in Japan, where they pull exactly the sort of tricks described in "Reynardine." That name means fox, the original singers didn't use the word for no reason, & the motif of human/animal metamorphosis is one of the most widespread and ancient of superstitions. It would seem that the attachment of historical references to a typical & universal myth would obviously (& predictably) follow such a song wherever it wandered.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Big Jim from Jackson
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 09:27 AM

It's interesting that no one has mentioned the Reindeer Song in connection with this thread. Evidently, as the song filtered through the Appalachian and Ozark Mountains, Reynardine became corrupted into reindeer. I guess those early settlers didn't know much French, and when they tried to sing the song, they sort of plugged in whatever word sounded close. In the process, the song lost its sinister aspects and became more like a tall tale bordering on just a nonsense song. Gail Davies makes refference to it in her song "Grandma's Song" and uses it at the end of the song. Cathy Barton Para collected a version of it in Donophan, Missouri, and included it in her cover of "Grandma's Song". The recording can be obtained from Folk-Legacy Records.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 08:24 AM

In response to Malcolm back on Oct. 21, 2001:

Since "Reynard" (however one might adapt or misspell it) was the well known stereotypical name for a fox, it seems unlikely to me that Hughes's informant originated the idea, from whole cloth, that the ballad's protagonist was a supernatural fox, especially since there are no vulpine references in the text.

But if he did, isn't this the way that folklore originates?

Of course, Hughes himself might have concocted the notion, on the same principle. But thanks to Hughes, Lloyd, and others, "Reynardine," now appeals to people partially from this association with lycanthropy, a subject of popular interest, if not belief, since the Wolfman films of the 30s. By adding teeth, Lloyd gave the song a new popularity.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 05:49 PM

One of the points in my paper, which has now made the rounds of academic conferences, is that Hughes is the first person to refer to the character as "Reynardine," and also the first to declare that he is a were-fox. In fact, in almost all orally collected versions of the song, the name is Rinordine, Rhinordine, Ryner Dyne, Randall Rine, or something else. Only people aware of Hughes' work, or of revivalist versions of the song, call him "Reynardine." So the idea that the name makes him obviously a fox is a bit of a stretch.

Beyond that, "Reynardine" does not mean fox, it means fox-like (just as vulpine means wolf-like or leonine means lion-like). Given this, there are obvious ways in which he may be "like a fox" without assuming that he is a were-fox. He is tricky, seems to be an outlaw, and is being hunted. His having a fox-like name (if, indeed, he had one) would be as natural as Disney making Robin Hood a fox in their version of the legend.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 06:30 PM

To be fair, there is an example of a slip-song issued as Reynardine which would pre-date Hughes & Campbell's set, though it is undated and the printer (presumably Irish in this case) is not named (Bodleian 2806 c.8(253) and 2806 c.8(310), both apparently copies of the same issue). Two of the tunes in Petrie are also called Reynardine, so Hughes does seem not quite to have been first there.

My own feeling is still that the supernatural business has been superimposed on an otherwise fairly straightforward song because of the hero's name, rather than that the name was chosen because of any existing supernatural content; it seems much more likely that it reflects the protagonist's outlaw status, as has already been suggested.

Of course a lot of folklore -or perhaps fakelore- has accumulated since Hughes and Campbell, and Helen Creighton, for example, felt sure that "Rinordine... always has supernatural powers"; though the only detail in the song that might suggest something of the sort is the vague implication of some hypnotic ability of the kind common in balladry. She got a set from a Mr Freeman Young at East Petpeswick in 1952, who reportedly described Rinordine as "a magic feller" (Maritime Folk Songs, Toronto, 1962, 112-3); another informant, though, took a more pragmatic view: "Rinordine must have been a dog out walking and met this young lady and put up all this stuff for a bluff. I guess he was something real anyhow." (Mr Berton Young, West Petpeswick, 1952, op. cit.; and quoted by Becky of Tucson earlier in this thread). As Becky suggests, "dog" is of course equivalent to "rake"; Mr Young was certainly not talking about wolves or foxes! We may, as she also suggests, perhaps suspect some "leading" from Miss Creighton here.

Bert Lloyd put the cap on it all, of course; and so many people desperately want the song to be about a were-wolf, or a were-fox (I know that these are common in Japan, but we are not talking about a Japanese song) or a vampire, or some such, that the same old arguments will continue to be rehearsed over and over. All they reflect, though, it what the song (usually in the form concocted by Bert Lloyd) means to some people now; not what it has meant to others, or what it meant to whoever made it. That is an important distinction; to draw a crude analogy, the fact that I have a scar below my lip doesn't mean that I have always had one.

The single relevant piece of evidence we have to support any "shape-shifting" motif is not contained in any known traditional or broadside form of the song, but in the single brief comment quoted by Hughes, and presumably derived from Campbell; which is unprovenanced hearsay, if it is genuine at all. It would be interesting to know if anyone has ever looked for any independent account of such a belief in Donegal, and whether or not they have met with any success.

There appears, incidentally, to be no demonstrable connection with the English folktale of Mr Fox (a Bluebeard analogue; the song based on it, mentioned earlier, is a modern composition) though a lot of people seem to have assumed one and proceeded from there.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 07:55 PM

You're quite right, Malcolm, about meanings then as distinct from meanings now. All I meant to suggest was that a handful of few new words and the hint of an appealing "hidden" meaning have helped raise the ballad to probably its greatest popularity. I suspect that even many of us who "know better" find the song more enjoyable because of its newly nourished ambiguity. Lloyd's mention of shining teeth is a nearly perfect touch: matched with "sly" and "bold," no liner notes are necessary. I'm speaking here solely of the modern

And consider the intriguing notions that Reynardine's "castle," which ought to be a local landmark, may not be easy to find. Following him "sun and dark" rather than "night and day" is another mysterious touch, though some will undoubtedly find it "gratuitously romantic."

And Nerd, your research is indeed facsinating; but how certain can we be that ballad-singers would take the neologism "Reynardine" to mean only "fox *like*" only? Moreover, "Renardine," "Rinordine" and "Rhinordine" would be pronounced similarly enough, I think, regardless of any broadsheet spelling.

You may be on to something with "Reynoldyn," but more evidence would be most welcome.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 03:05 PM

Thanks for the correction, Malcolm. In fact, that broadside was not yet available in their catalog when I did the searches for my paper about 6-8 months ago, and the word "reynardine" turned up no matches at all on a search. (The song was called "The Mountains High" or "One Evening on my rambles" in every version then available). So I'll need to do some minor revisions now that that broadside has been indexed and scanned! Still, the fact is that a minuscule minority of the broadsides or oral versions call him 'Reynardine." The standard academic name, established by Malcolm Laws and based on the majority of texts he had, is "Rinordine," and Holloway and Black believe it is all a corruption of "Reynold Ryan!" Therefore to argue that he must be supernatural because of his name is still a stretch.

Lighter: Yes, more evidence on Reynoldyn would be ideal. Unfortunately, there isn't any, except that in two ballads there is a "Reynold" and in one a "Rennet" who are among the merry men. Scant, I know, but it's all we have! And I agree completely about "sly" and "bold." All added by Lloyd! ("Sun and Dark" was Campbell's, if I recall correctly.)

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 07:00 PM

Pavane referred to the Bodleian copies titled Reynardine two years ago (earlier in this thread) so you must have been unlucky when you looked. Generally speaking, the Bodleian "search" function is less helpful than the "browse", which, though more time-consuming, tends to return better results. "Sun and Dark" is indeed from Campbell's set.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Brian Frew
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 07:30 AM

The spelling is Bert Jansch. He is Scottish and played in the seminal band "Pentangle" with his mate John Renbourne, Jaqui McShee etc. He is still playing as well as ever. His version has a wonderful guitar backing (typical of the man) which brings out the mysterious elements of the song.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: pavane
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 10:57 AM

I ususally find it better to search Bodley on index 2 than on index 1.
Don't know why, but it works better!

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: pavane
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 11:00 AM

Just checked again - the same 2 copies come up on either index, so it wasn't that!

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 11:19 AM

Being in a particularly pedantic frame of mind, can I point out that Guest Brian's spelling of Jansch is at last correct and that it is pronounced with a 'j' not a 'y' sound as often heard, particularly by Mike Harding who ought to know better.

Furthermore, John Renbourn does not have a final 'e'. And Jacqui McShee has a 'c' in her first name. The other members of Pentangle were Terry Cox and Danny Thompson.

Davy Graham describes BJ's version of Reynardine as 'the best thing he has ever done'. I think Sandy Denny's was pretty damn good too.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 04:08 PM

Nerd,

Where would I be able to read your article on this subject? I am impressed with the discussion that has gone on here and your research, amongst others, and would love to learn more.

The only version of the song I have heard is off The Green Fields of America Live In Concert CD, which I personally love. I wish I could find other versions to compare it to, though.

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:23 PM

GUEST,

The article is to be published in the UK Journal "Folklore," and should appear in the issue that comes out this December. Academic publishers are slow compared to the popular press, and this was in fact a very fast turnaround for them because they happened to have a slot open in that issue and made me work very fast on the revisions! I opted not to send it to Musical Traditions first because that would have hurt its chances in the academic journals.

They DID make me cut out a bit (particularly on Reynoldyn/Rinaldini) because the paper was over their word limit. But most what's to be said is above in this thread.

The Green Fields of America Version, by the way, was learned by Mick Moloney from Margaret MacArthur of Vermont, who got it from a field tape. Mick later filled in some words from a songster text. Thus, that version shows none of Bert Lloyd's mediation...no sly, bold, teeth, etc.   

I gave a talk on this ballad at the NY Eisteddfod this year, and Margaret came and played the field tape for us!

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:30 PM

Nerd, I'll be reading your article with interest!

Ann Briggs recorded a fine performance (of Lloyd's version, I think) in the early 60s. Pretty sure it's on her currently available CD.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:37 PM

Thanks for the response, Nerd. I will be attempting to find a copy of that publication come December.

This whole discussion has been a fascinating and most impressive read. I would have no idea how to go about researching this sort of thing.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 06:44 PM

GUEST,

For me it was serendipity. I came across a copy of the Campbell text at a used bookstore in Seattle, and bought that. I tracked down the Hughes text a bit later; first the version he published in a book, then the original fragment he collected, which he had published in "Notes and Queries."

But the big piece of luck was that I came across an obscure recording of Lloyd in a used record shop in New York. The Lloyd version on this record was from the 1950s, earlier than his famous recording of the song, and was much shorter than his later recording, with only verses that had been published by Campbell and Hughes. That alerted me to discrepancies with the prevailing academic opinion on the song, which began to be preposterous given the existence of this older recording.

From there it's legwork: trying to find traces of Tom Cook, and of "Reynardine" in Eastbridge. Finding all the versions you can and comparing them. AND, not incidentally, trying to make some halfway interesting points about the whole thing.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 07:25 PM

For some years there was a musical foursome here in Austin (Tx) named Reynardine. According to one of their members, Lorre Weidlich, they took the name because of its history in various folklores they had looked into -- all-too-human womanizer/serial killer, spook, etc. They did old British Isles ballads, traditional Celtic, bluegrass, old-time-string-band, Carter Family, etc. -- lots of styles. Other members were Earl Hunt and Glenn Schultze. Lorre played Appalachian Dulcimer and tinwhistle and sang, Earl played guitar and mandolin and sang, Glenn played (and built)washtub bass and sang. The fourth member's last name eludes me now, but the first was Chuck and he played the concertina. They disbanded. Glenn died of a heart attack several years later. Still see the others around doing stuff. 'Course they make their livings other ways. Glenn was a follower of the traditions of warm, loyal friendship, and encouraging a healthier approach to life on the planet. Durn, I miss him. Tw.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 01:43 AM

The fourth member was Chuck Strickland. I have a cassette they put out in 1989! Sorry to hear that Glenn passed away.

There was also a band called Reynardine in England. Mike Raven was a member of that one.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 02:16 AM

Ah, yes. Thanks, Nerd. What would us old fogeys do without people with good sense and memories? I shudder to contemplate. Share music and health with others and honor those who've taken that step off the edge before us thereby. Tw

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 10:56 AM

I'll drink to that, tw.

should also mention that a few people here, including Malcolm Douglas, have helped me with the details, both in this thread and in PMs. Thanks, folks!   Oddly, the journal was reluctant to have me state that some of the facts were posted to a folk music internet forum, because it might look unreliable--even though Malcolm is, by anyone's standards, an authority! So the Mudcat itself does not get a credit, just a couple of individuals and their "personal communications."

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 05:31 PM

Nerd,

From what I have read, I would say that you have made some more than interesting points. To say your work has been impressive would be an understatement.

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 12:58 PM

Jim Mc Farland, a fine singer from Derry, has just released a CD which includes the song. I'll post details later.

Regards

Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Layla
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 05:25 PM

Looking forward to reading your article in Folklore, Nerd. What is the exact title of the piece as it is going to appear in the journal?