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BS: De-Christianizing Christmas
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Subject: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Mrrzy Date: 10 Jan 02 - 12:44 PM This came up at our family $mas, which is secular but still called Christmas, and some of the tree decorations are angels. A movement has started (I did not start it, oddly enough) to eliminate all religious references from our midwinter celebration. We'd probably call it Midwinter, we'd have a tree but no angels, we'd do presents the way we do on the 25th of December because that is when everybody is off work or out of school, and we'd limit the music to... what? I didn't get a lot out of that Secular Songs thread... I gather that Santa is OK, but we'd eliminate the Hannukkah songs too, I guess. Any of you non-Christians-who-celebrate-Christmas have any ideas? Some clarification upon rereading: the point of our family midwinter celebration is love-demonstrated-by-giving. So you have to have the presents. And the point of any midwinter celebration by humans includes the very human ken that winter, albeit cold and dark, ends, and the warm days and green leaves return, which is why there is an evergreen, and the decorations are lovely. Any other questions, please ask. This is a real question to the Mudcat, not something intended to generate What is wrong with $mas diatribes... or such is my hope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: MMario Date: 10 Jan 02 - 12:51 PM well Mrrzy - this gets tough - because to remove all religious references you would have to remove the presents, arrange that the days NOT get longer, the darkness NOT end, etc,etc.etc. The tree is a religious symbol, as are evergreens, holly, many of the traditional foods. The celebration of something on or near the winter solstice is deeply and inherently religious in nature. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Jeri Date: 10 Jan 02 - 01:05 PM Mrrzy, it's just human nature to take bits from other cultures and assimilate them into our own. I'd guess both Christians and those of other or no religions might be glad if you called the celebration something besides Christmas. Depending on how paricipants feel about religion in general, you could do no religious songs, or songs from as many religions as possible. It may not be a bad idea to remember different folks in different communities celebrate the same time of year in different ways. Personally, while my beliefs have changed over the years, the feeling I get at Christmas time is part of my tradition and who I am. It's about coming together and feeling comfortable with people. Maybe your decisions about what you do would best be based on what will be most likely to make that happen. There ought to be plenty of songs about love, and giving; family and friends being together, or songs about being warm by the fire when cold winds blow, about having enough to eat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: wysiwyg Date: 10 Jan 02 - 01:12 PM I am responding in friendship. What I have to say may invite other interpretations, but I am writing in friendship. I would just ask, as a friend, that you remain aware that the name of the holiday, itself, honors and incorporates the name of Christ. If you are going to do something as an alternative, then why not do it as a pro-SOMETHING, not an anti-SOMETHING. The whole paradigm of thinking about a celebration should be to celebrate one thing, not denigrate something else... and the thread title gives away the paradigm-- it just is indicative of a thought process stuck in the one paradigm, while tryig somehow to create a new one. In other words-- you aren't thinking "outside the box" yet. So because I am discussing, not attacking or complainng of blaming, but answering your request to discuss-- let me suggest another approach. RECLAIMING CELEBRATING DISCOVERING IMMERSING ... as the first word of this idea you are pursuing, followed by the positive value you are trying to get at. I won't presume to speak it for you-- you know it better than I, this thing you want to proclaim. If you change the way you talk about this with yourself, internally, you will find different ideas coming to the surface, and different responses coming to join your effort. If you are really celebrating something intrinsically good and truthful and satisfying to the human spirit-- calling that whatever you will-- people will rally to it. Me, too. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Ron Olesko Date: 10 Jan 02 - 01:12 PM Sort of like de-caf coffee, which to me defeats the purpose. It sounds like you are trying to create a new holiday from an already established holiday. That sounds like the territory of TV executives and fast food restaurants. Since most of the religious symbols and rituals were adapted from pagan rituals and solstice celebrations you could make a point that most of these items are secular. I guess the biggest question would be, why bother? You haven't given a reason or a purpose for doing this other than not being comfortable with celebrating Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanza, or Solstice as your mid-winter holiday. All of these holidays were developed for specific reaszons - creating a new holiday just because you aren't comfortable with one of the existing ones really would be a hard sell. I'm not questioning your feeling uncomfortable with the religous holidays, that is fine. I just question creating a holiday for the sake of having a holiday. The reason doesn't have to be religous, but you need a good reason.
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Jeri Date: 10 Jan 02 - 01:26 PM Ron, did you read Mrrzy's second paragraph? |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: GUEST,Mark Clark (via public proxy) Date: 10 Jan 02 - 02:02 PM Mrzzy, You might find some ideas in this article. The part of Christmas you would like to keep—the parts most people observe—are far older than Christianity. The Church merely adopted the older customs in order to incorporate the tradition. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: MMario Date: 10 Jan 02 - 02:08 PM ah- but the stated intention is to eliminate all religious references from our midwinter celebration |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Jan 02 - 02:14 PM It's a fascinating question, Mrr. I'm a church-going Christian, but I can certainly see how it would be offensive to non-Christians to have all this Christ-stuff from early October until the after-Christmas sales end in February. Still, if you attempt to cleanse all vestiges of Christianity from winter celebrations, can you have a tradition that is authentic? It seems like people try to do that here in California - you can say whatever you like about Hanukkah, Solstice, Kwanzaa, and Ramadan, but you are Politically Incorrect if you make mention of Christmas. I think the same thing happens with Jews who try to celebrate a secular Passover with a Haggadah that mekes no mention of God. I can see the reason why they want to do such a thing and I don't question their sincerity, but can they have an authentic Passover tradition without mention of God? Can't they celebrate Passover in traditional ways and mention God in the story of Exodus, without actually believing in God? I think the answer to to acknowledge and embrace all the winter traditions that are part of our culture, and then build upon those traditions in a way that suits our own way of thinking. Take a look at how tradition has developed in history, and I think you'll see that it's the only way that authentic tradition can develop. As Christianity spread through Europe, the church did many things to attempt to do away with earlier pagan practices and traditions. Did it work? Nope - look at all the Christmas customs that trace their roots to pagan religions. Was it wrong for Christians to assimilate earlier tradition and incorporate it into their own custom? I don't think so. It seems to me that assimilation is a natural part of the development of tradition and culture. In this modern age of ours, we try to shape thinking by forcing changes upon our language and customs. We come up with a new name for African-Americans and handicapped people every ten years. We call personnel "human resources," customers "guests," and employees "associates." We have to watch every word we say so that we don't utter something that somebody might consider offensive. We can't eat peanuts or wear perfume or serve bread because someboy might be allergic. I think it's healthiest for us if we can accept the fact that life is messy. No matter how hard we try, it's impossible for us to cleans the past and the present of things we don't like. All we can do is build upon what we have. So, if you want to build a winter tradition, take a lesson from how Christianity built upon previous custom. Acknowledge and accept and build upon all that is rich and colorful from Christian Christmas tradition - but don't think you have to believe in it. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: NicoleC Date: 10 Jan 02 - 02:21 PM While Christmas may not be part of my religion, it is a part of my culture, which is why I celebrate it. And there's something very uplifting and almost necessary about pretending for a couple of days that it's not dark and dreary outside. Decorating with evergreens and mistletoe and lots of light at the darkest part of the year predates the Catholic church by many centuries (what else are you going to decorate with... bare twigs?), so there's a lot you can do that still Christmas-y without being religious. If you limit yourself to things which haven't been integrated into a modern religious setting, you'll have nothing left :) You might try an old-fashioned celebration. All gifts and decorations are handmade, the food is made from scratch, and so forth. Everyone gets involved in sharing and being together without so much of the commercial or religious trappings. And if any of your family does want to also celebrate the religious aspect, it won't shut them out of the fun. In fact, I think it would be more reverent. For music, why not pick out some favorite classical and folks tunes? I'm sure many Christmas and midwinter celebrations of old involved a lot of homemade song and dance, and didn't need to be a different kind of music just for the season. You could teach each other dances or just make a big pot of Wassail or spiced cider and sit and catch up on the talking and being together. Next year, I've already convinced most of the family that we aren't going to do presents. None of us needs any new junk. What we are going to do is sponsor a needy family, or give to local charities that do good work. It never hurts to spread the joy around :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: MMario Date: 10 Jan 02 - 02:29 PM which brings us back to my question - is it ALL religious references that you wish to remove - or jus the Christian ones? |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: SharonA Date: 10 Jan 02 - 02:32 PM Mrrzy: The only problem with calling the celebration "Midwinter" is that the last days of December occur at the beginning of the winter season, when the days actually begin to lengthen after the solstice and the weather isn't yet at its coldest. Since, as you say, "the point of [your] family midwinter celebration is love-demonstrated-by-giving", I'd suggest calling it "Giving Day." I see no problem with having a tree, holly, traditional foods, even figures of people with wings (hey, fairies have wings, too!) without attaching any symbolism to them whatsoever. Sometimes, a tree is just a tree and a present is just a present. (...and a cat... is a person! Sorry.) Whatever trappings and traditions bring you comfort, leave 'em in! I have to admit, though, that I'm disturbed by the concept of "limiting" the singing. Certainly, if people feel uncomfortable singing a song because of its lyrics, they should not. But the "message" of a song is a more subjective concept; some of the narrative Christmas carols could be considered ballads or otherwise folklore-oriented ("The First Noel", for instance), whereas those that are songs of praise (such as "Joy to the World") would not. And any song that expresses a wish for peace and goodwill can't be all bad, in my book (speaking as an agnostic). I would say, sing whatever feels comfortable to you since, in the context of your family celebration, no one is going to "take it the wrong way" (take it to mean that you believe something that, in fact, you do not). And if the song everyone's comfy with is "Sweet Betsy from Pike", who cares? The important thing is that you're gathering together and singing! |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Ron Olesko Date: 10 Jan 02 - 03:16 PM Jeri, Yes I did read the second paragraph which is why I worded my comments the way I did. I have no objection to what he is trying to accomplish, but I am still hazy on what he is trying to celebrate. Love demonstrated by giving is a great idea, but is that the reason for a holiday? True holidays are celebrations of events or milestones. An holiday to give gifts is a birthday or anniversary or Valentines Day. Giving gifts at Christmas or Hannukah is tied into the religious beliefs - symbols of the ceremony. So my question is still unanswered. Ron |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: SharonA Date: 10 Jan 02 - 03:26 PM But, Ron, to some people, gathering the family together is an event! A day when no one in the group would have to miss a gathering, due to work or school, is an event! A gift exchange – for any reason or no reason – is an event! What's not to celebrate? |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Jeri Date: 10 Jan 02 - 03:47 PM Ron, giving gifts is not tied to religion for me, and I suspect Mrrzy as well. I grew up with the traditions of Christmas. Those traditions have, for me, become the reasons for the celebration, and not the results. It's a day to rejoice being with loved ones during the coldest, darkest time of year. It was clear to me (I think) what Mrrzy was actually asking. If I cared to look for motives, I probably could have imagined enough so I wouldn't question them. I doubt I'd do so anyway, since it usually results in an argument having nothing to do with the questions asked by the starter of the thread. If an explanation of motives helps in answering the question, no problem. In any case, I think we just have different ways of looking at "holiday" celebrations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Ron Olesko Date: 10 Jan 02 - 03:56 PM Sharon, You are right, unfortunately. To me it seems a shame that we need to make up an excuse for giving gifts or expressing love. At least with the other holidays that were mentioned, the giving of gifts is a by-product and not necessarily the purpose of the holiday. It seems a shame that days like Martin Luther King Day and Presidents Day are now perceived as a day to buy stereos and refrigerators on sale. People tend to forget the reason we celebrate. Don't get me wrong, days like Mother's Day, Father's Day, Grandparents Day, and Second Cousin Weekend do serve to remind us of those close to us. You are right, sometimes it does take a holiday to get people together. We've all become so busy in our lives that we can't get together for the sake of getting together unless it is tied into a holiday. It is a shame. The only reason I questioned the original note was that it seems "almost" to be a case of wanting the best of all worlds. Mrzzy has issues with celebrating a religous holiday, which I respect 100%. If the feeling is that strong it just seems unusual for wanting to take the symbols and themes of the holiday and making it serve another purpose. Truthly, that is EXACTLY what the Church did when they incorporated pagan celebrations and createed the Christmas holiday. This is an interesting thread - lots of food for thought. Ron |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: 53 Date: 10 Jan 02 - 04:07 PM why would you want to remove the reason for christmas? that sounds like a pretty stupid idea, he is the reason for the season. BOB |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 10 Jan 02 - 05:02 PM I agree with Susan. Better to choose a new name. Christmas literally means celebrating Christ. If you want to take Christ out of the Holiday, take him out of the name. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: SharonA Date: 10 Jan 02 - 05:07 PM Ron: thanks for that answer. Well said! |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Jan 02 - 05:24 PM I don't often disagree with Joe Offer, and when he's taken the time to write this week when he's got bigger matters on his mind seesm ungracious, but it's not a serius disagreement.
"I can certainly see how it would be offensive to non-Christians to have all this Christ-stuff from early October until the after-Christmas sales end in February."
I can't. I've don't feel the least bit uncomfortable about Muslims celebrating Ramadan and Id-al-fitar, or Jews celebrasting Passover and Hanukah , or Hindus with Divali and Holiand so forth. The more celebrations the better, and the more we all feel invited to join in them the better still.
I'm all for a mid-winter hiliday.But it shouldn't be at Christmas, which, as has been pointed out, comes before winter has really set in. Have it a few weeks later in real mid-winter, when we need cheering up. Round about Candlemas, which is February 2nd.
And best of luck for Offer Day on Saturday. Chris-Offer day. Now that's another real mid-winter celebration. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: MMario Date: 10 Jan 02 - 05:27 PM it's offensive to many Christians the way the holiday has been promoted and extended and commercialized.
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Ron Olesko Date: 10 Jan 02 - 05:34 PM By the way... Jingle Bells is a good song. No mention of Christmas, gifts, menorahs or anything. Perfect song for the winter but it seems to be only associated with Christmas. (I thought maybe one reply for the original request would be nice, especially since I am guilty of taking the thread off topic too!!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Liz the Squeak Date: 10 Jan 02 - 05:36 PM Call it Yule then, if you can't cope with Christmas, Xmas is just the abbreviated form, X being the cross. And Valentines is not a holiday. It's a holy day, another Christian saint, who was killed because he refused to denounce Christ. That's what holiday means..... holy day. So what you going to do with them? LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Lepus Rex Date: 10 Jan 02 - 05:41 PM Interesting thread... My view: I'm agnostic (Well, athiest, if we're talking about X-ianity:) ), but I don't have a problem with celebrating x-mas. I swap gifts with family and friends, sometimes even respectfully pretending to say grace to their 'God' at dinner. And I call it 'Christmas,' too, even though the closest thing to a religious symbol in my home is a stuffed Cthulhu doll. I know all the religious bits of the holiday are silly and obsolete, and playing along isn't going to insult any baby-eating monkey gods that I worship, since I don't. So what's the problem? None, for me. I don't feel threatened by the make-believe godlings of the Middle East or their followers. I know that I'm right, and that anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. So... what the Hell was my point? Ah, yes: So, Mrry, I don't know what your (or your family's) religious orientation is, but if it's the case that you don't believe in any gods, why bother worrying about what to call X-mas? Isn't it just a word, one used to describe a holiday with rituals that are pretty much identical to the one your family wants to 'create?' And wouldn't it just be a pain in the ass to explain to 'outsiders,' something that would distance you from your peers (sometimes a good thing, heh) and give them the impression your family is unbelievably PC? Just curious. Also, how would Santa Claus be OK for your celebration, Mrrzy? Yes, he's a jolly, secular-feeling, 'elf,' but he is also St.Nicholas, after all. :) ---Lepus Rex (And, what, no one's mentioned Festivus?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 10 Jan 02 - 06:43 PM We consider 4th of July, Memorial Day and Labor day to be among our "holidays". Even though the definition of the word is derived from "holy day", it has obviously changed. Certainly the Holiday Inn isn't really holy! I guess they do have that bible in the drawer though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: CapriUni Date: 10 Jan 02 - 06:55 PM Well, as to why we call the Christmas celebration a "midwinter" festival... that's really a cultural thing. According to our current culture, the start of winter is defined as the winter solstice -- the day on which the sun's path appears cross furthest to the north of the celestial equator. This is also the day with the shortest amount of sunlight per 24-hour period, give or take a minute or two. But in other cultures (such as the ancient Celts, for example) the start of "Winter" was on or around what we now think of a November 1st -- the ritual day on which the herds of cattle were brought down from their summer pastures in the mountains, and the start of "Summer" was when the cattle were brought back to the mountains on or around May 1st. Defined in this way, the end of December is much closer to being "midwinter". As for why Mrzzy wants to celebrate (Whateverday) at this time, he (you are a 'he', right, Mrzzy?) did state that this was the one time the whole family could actually get to together -- logistics can't be dismissed too easily :-). Also, for the atheistic, agnostic folks out there (who might also be science-minded, or they might not be), the Winter Solstice is a measurable moment -- something that happens for simultaneously for everyone living in the northern hemisphere. So, if you're going to pick a particular around which to center a celebration, it's an easy one to decide on, rather than trying to decide which week in February is the gloomiest... |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Jan 02 - 08:11 PM What do people in the southern hemisphere do to cheer themslves up in the middle of their winter? |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Lepus Rex Date: 10 Jan 02 - 08:19 PM Gather in the bathroom and watch their toilets flush in the wrong direction. ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 10 Jan 02 - 08:20 PM If you'd like to take Christ out of Christmas, be patient. Try to find an image of Christ on Christmas wrapping paper, or on most Christmas cards... or on Holiday specials. You've got rednosed reindeer, and dancing snowmen, but no Christ. I think somebody beat you to it. And that's right... I'm not offended when someone celebrates Ramadan, any more than I am offended when someone doesn't believe in God. Different strokes. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 10 Jan 02 - 08:40 PM Seems like the argument is about words. The words don't make the celebration, they just help you talk about it. Year-old & younger kids catch on just fine to Christmas/Yule/Solstice/whatever and they don't call it anything. The dark of the year is a good time to celebrate. Do what you want, sing what you want. And call it what you want-- "Yule" is pretty good, but if you call it "Christmas" so people will know when you mean it's ok; you won't have signed a contract for the Mass of Christ. A star looks good on the tree, but it doesn't commit you to anything. Why worry about whether it's REALLY about Christ or Saturn or whoever? The act comes first, then the interpretation. First the art, then the critic. Clint Keller |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: CapriUni Date: 10 Jan 02 - 09:17 PM "First the art, then the critic." I like that!! You don't mind if I use it, do you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Jan 02 - 09:34 PM Following up on what McGrath said, maybe it would be good for non-Christians realize that Christians take offense at many of the same aspects of Christmas that offend non-Christians. I think most everybody would like to do away with the cheap commercialization of winter celebrations, and have a nice, quiet, memorable time filled with music and love. In some ways, I suppose it's nice to "keep the Christ in Christmas" - but maybe it's better if we all would be open to diversity in our winter celebrations, so we can all celebrate together. After all, I don't think I've ever heard people remind me to "Keep the Thor in Thursday." Maybe Christians shouldn't be so concerned about keeping December 25 to themselves - and maybe non-Christians shouldn't worry about using the word "Christmas" to refer to December 25. -Joe Offer- [I keep typing "Christina" when I mean to type "Christian" - could it be that I have my future bride on my mind?? We're having a Catholic wedding Mass Saturday, and many of those attending are non-Christian or non-Catholic. I hope it will still be a good celebration for all.] |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: CapriUni Date: 11 Jan 02 - 12:00 AM "I don't think I've ever heard people remind me to 'Keep the Thor in Thursday.' " LOL! I love it! Can someone put that on a bumpersticker for me? ;-) Isn't that an exchange from Winnie the Pooh? (or is that The House at Pooh Corner?) which goes something like: Piglet: Where are you going, Pooh? Pooh: I'm going to wish people "A very Happy Tuesday". Want to come? That's not it, exactly (I did a quick scan of the two books, and couldn't find it... but I know it's there). But anyway, that's how I feel about Christmas celebrations. I'm not Christian, myself, but that's no reason not to partake of all the merriness. Why not wish each other Very Happy Tuesdays, and Wonderful Wednessdays, Thankful Thursdays, and Merry Christmasses, and so on? This poor old world needs all the merriness it can get.. (and, Joe? Have a Splendiferous Saturday, Saturday, okay? ;-)) |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: GUEST,misophist Date: 11 Jan 02 - 12:31 AM It's been over thirty years since I've celebrated Xmas myself. That said, I want to endorse everthing Mr Offer said and to suggest you do whatever you damn well please. Keep the tree if you want to. It represents the world ash, Yggdrasil, from which All Father Odin hanged himself for nine days and nights. The holly is a reminder of Loki's perfidity and the slaying of Baldur the Beautiful. If that's good enough for Christians, it can be good enough for you,too, if you want it to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: marty D Date: 11 Jan 02 - 12:48 AM Something just came to mind. I know that a number of people want to remove the name of "Columbus Day" (because he was an 'opressor, murderer, Imperialist, yada yada) but I read somewhere that "Exploration Day" may well BE on the horizon to replace it. Anyone heard anything about that? I'm not specifically a 'Columbus' fan (I doubt if ANY of the explorers were egalitarian) just curious. I think a great number of people simply take what they want from any holiday, and let others do the same. We celebrate Christ's Birthday knowing full well he wasn't ACTUALLY born on that day, the same way we honor the 'unknown soldier'. The pagentry and reverence make us feel better, and surely that can't be bad these days. marty |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Gary T Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:03 AM McGrath--re: ...Candlemas, which is February 2nd. Candlemas? CANDLEMAS? Who gives a rat's patoot about Candlemas--February 2nd is Groundhog Day (here in the states, anyway), for crying out loud. Hmmmph--Candlemas indeed. :-) Liz--re: Xmas is just the abbreviated form, X being the cross. I think you'll find that the "X" is the Greek letter chi, the first letter of the word "christ" written in Greek. That it appears to be a cross is merely coincidental. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Rolfyboy6 Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:12 AM Why call it "Midwinter" when it's already Yule? Buddhists love the Yule. Hey, when all is said and done--"What everybody said", I kinda agree with everything said on this thread. Now, can we get the stores to stop playing that crappy xmas music? |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Jimmy C Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:40 AM Christmas is a christian feast. If you want to have a non-christian day do so, but pick a different date, there are lots to go around. I do not like the word Xmas as it is (I believe) a way of crossing Christ out of Christmas. I will not buy any cards that have the word Xmas on them, I will not shop in any store that has Xmas sales etc. It is a Christian holiday, period. The tree etc I can do without, The focal point of the holiday is Christ. Presents, tinsel, turkey etc all evolved innocently enough throughout the years, now it is out of hand, it's commercialized to the stage of overkill. I am not Jewish, I do not celebrate Jewish feasts but I have enough respect for the Jewish faith and the Jewish people to refer to their feast days by their proper names, the same goes for all other religions. Christmas is Christmas, not Xmas, not yuletide, not The Festive Season etc, it is Christmas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: CapriUni Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:09 AM Jimmy C: I agree with you. All religios beliefs should be respected. And I do pick a different date: the solstice itself (which, in my religion is called "Yule" -- comes from the Old English for 'ember', referring to the sacred fires that were lit at this time.) But also, in my faith, I honor the event of the Solstice by meditating on the light returning to the world (and how I can spread light of my own in the upcoming year) for 12 days, hence "yuletide" or "Season of Yule" ... Christ's Mass does fall within that period. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Liz the Squeak Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:11 AM The holly is a reminder of Loki's perfidity = no that good a reminder, because it's mistletoe that Loki used..... Liz--re: Xmas is just the abbreviated form, X being the cross. I think you'll find that the "X" is the Greek letter chi, the first letter of the word "christ" written in Greek. That it appears to be a cross is merely coincidental. Bloody spellchecker!! I'd written Chi, and it changed it for me! LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 11 Jan 02 - 03:29 AM CapriUni: Re: "First the art, then the critic." I like that!! You don't mind if I use it, do you? On the contrary. Spread the word. clint keller |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Jan 02 - 03:44 AM By the way, I hate to tell you all this, but Spring has come to my area. A few flowers are popping up, the streams are gushing with water, and the grass is a fresh green. While the rest of you are in the bleak midwinter (or waning summer), it's a beautiful SPRING in Northern California - and I'm getting married tomorrow!!! -Joe Offer, jubilant- |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Deckman Date: 11 Jan 02 - 04:27 AM Joe ... You don't suppose that all those wonderful things are happening BECAUSE you are getting married tomorrow, do you? Very Best Wishes to you and Mrs. Joe. Bob Nelson |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: JulieF Date: 11 Jan 02 - 06:50 AM When I was young I had a great deal of trouble relating my non belief with general life - Should I sing hymns at school assembly, what about the girl guide promise and so forth - Ok I was a fairly intense teenager and I have had my comeupance and now spend my time telling my daughter to lighten up and its not the end of the world. Strangely, I don't remember having any problems with Christmas. Teenagers can be fairly selective in their intensity. As I got older I managed to establish what I was and what way I wanted to live my life. I found I could sing hymns at weddings, funerals or Christenings as it was to make the event for my friends. Although I would never become a God Parent. I think as far as Christmas goes look at the bits that are important to you and your family. If it is important for the family (perhaps due to small children) then celebrate on the day, then celebrate on the day. If not do something else and choose your own celebration. If your family enjoys singing carols, sing carols for the sake of your family's enjoyment. Don't worry about the name of the day, its not the important part. Personally, I enjoyed choosing the right present for the right person, a big family gathering on Christmas day and the fact the my niece can remember who I am from one day to the next now, my brother's playing competitive Twister and the look on my daughter's face when she unrapped the purple Doc Martins. All the best Julie |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Jan 02 - 08:20 AM Good discussion indeed! Filled an otherwise dull lunch break with interest:-) My only contribution would be to ask the question why would anyone want to get rid of anything from any festival? Surely the point of the festival, tradition or whatever is to celebrate something. From my point of view, the more the merrier! I will celebrate Christmas, Hannuhkah, End of Ramadan, Chinese Ney Year, the Cats birthday - ANYTHING! I enjoy the lot. We are all big enough to live with each others traditions, religions, colours and tastes. None of us know that much that we cannot get something out of someone elses viewpoint. We can all join in the joy of our fellows, whether we agree with what gives them that joy or not. (OK perhaps we wouldn't want to celebrate along with Charles Mansun but lets not get picky...;-)) I'm sure I would enjoy the 4th of July if I was over there at the time. I would certainly NOT want to take all references to America out of it just because I am not American! Cheers and a happy Gnome-thwannp to you all. BTW - I found Dave Butler's Multicultural Holiday Music Page while I was having a browse - looks quite good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jan 02 - 08:34 AM Groundhog Day was a good film, but as a holiday it's pretty local affair. Is it even widely recognised in the United States? (Apart from the film.)
Most places in the world don't have groundhogs. (Sort of overgrown squirrels aren't they? Since people sometimes call squirrels tree rats does that mean a ground squirrel is a kind of rat?)
On contrast, there are candles everywhere.
I'm still waiting to hear when and how southern folk celebrate in the middle of their winter? When is Penguin Day? |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Dani Date: 11 Jan 02 - 08:44 AM As always, I am humbled by the wisdom and humanity and kindness you all bring to a discussion like this. I don't usually get involved with personal stuff here at the Mudcat, but I want to tell you a story... I was raised Catholic, can still sing in Latin with the best of them. Well, maybe not with Joe ;). But I always, even very young, had this thing about the Nicene Creed. I just didn't get it, and felt real hypocritical and left out. When the time came for confirmation, I went along with the crowd, 'cause what else can you do? But that was it for me. I mentally left the church, and as soon as I was old enough, stopped going to Mass. But here's the thing: I love Christmas as much as the next guy, and Jesus, too! It's just that whole divinity and Virgin Birth thing that got me. So, does the baby get thrown out with the bathwater? Or the Great Teacher with the hypocrisy? So I'll evangelize. I found the Unitarian Universalist Church, discovered that I could be a "christian with a small 'c'" as a friend calls it, and began to sort out all that holiday stuff. Getting to know some really fundamentalist Pagans and Christians helped some, too! Neither of which I'd ever met until moving to NC, strangely enough. So over the course of years, I've learned to separate the holidays, and to allow them to converge. I love the beautiful story of the Nativity, and am happy to share it with my daughters in the same way we share LOTS of stories that were written to teach important things. And I love the celebration of Yule, the evergreens in the house, the candles and fireglow. We honor the mistletoe AND the shepherds. Both have things to teach us. I think Pagan and Christian carols and hymns dovetail nicely. There's just that verse or two that I choke on about redemption from Satan's power, but hey, not all our patriotic songs go down easily, either. Now, let's have them both be holy-days. Let's have plenty of holy-days, and keep them holy. I, too, hate that schools have whitewashed all the life out of EVERYONE'S holidays in the name of political correctness. I encourage ours to go ahead and let the kids celebrate Christmas.... and give me a chance to tell a story or share a song that celebrates the solstice, the Yule, etc. Our country never was a melting pot. It's a messy, lumpy, delicious stew. Only a curmudgeon would pass up a bowl. The rest of us know how to pick out the stuff we don't like, put it aside for someone else, and go on celebrating around the table! ADESTE FIDELIS, LAETE TRIUMPHANTE!! With love to you all, and best wishes for your beautiful date with Christina tomorrow, Joe! Dani |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: catspaw49 Date: 11 Jan 02 - 08:58 AM Why is it that every friggin' holiday of any sort, somebody has some objection or is offended even though they may want to participate.....sorta'. Don't answer, I know all the reasons. Let me propose this instead.
Now I realize that everyone might not recognize the 12 month calendar as a part of their culture, but international business uses it and we have to start somewhere. So.....We establish an International Holiday Registry!!! Every month has a number, 1-12, and you can send in the forms and register any day(s) in any month for anything you want to celebrate. Every Holiday has the SAME NAME followed by a number. We call them all
Let's say that the Christians get their forms in early for Whatevertafuck 12 and the traditional day is now known as Whatevertafuck 12-6. Maybe you don't want to celebrate any religious day or the solstice, but you want a holiday anyway......NO PROBLEMMO!!! Just send in the paperwork and now you can celebrate the day your Great Aunt Marge crashed her Packard and took out the loading dock at the Piggly-Wiggly which will be known as Whatevertafuck 12-261.
Just think of it.........Greeting cards can all have pleasant messages and pretty pictures with a "fill in the blank" section like "Have a Happy and Joyous Whatevertafuck 10-____." The stores can put up permanent banners with changeable numbers:
This is just the ticket and no one gets pissed and everyone is having a holiday celebration whenever they want for whatevertafuck reasons!
Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: SharonA Date: 11 Jan 02 - 11:10 AM Kevin (McGrath): Yes, I believe that Groundhog Day is widely recognized in the US, though perhaps for most it's not more than a curiosity. On the other hand, there are Groundhog Club chapters in California, Texas, Florida, North Carolina, Tennessee, Massachusetts and New Hampshire, as well as in Canada (in Calgary, Alberta). The movie did a lot to spread the word about the town of Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania and its annual tradition of pulling poor Punxsutawney Phil the groundhog out of his warm bed and holding him in the air, proclaiming his prediction concerning the end of winter. But, of course, the tradition existed long before the movie! Here's a web page that describes the relationship between Candlemas and Groundhog Day: Groundhog Day History: European Roots. Also, check out groundhog.com and groundhog.org Bear in mind that, this year, the date of the celebration will be 02/02/02 and that it falls on a Saturday, so Punxsutawney is definitely the place to be! (Good luck finding a place to park, though.) To answer your question about the animal itself, the groundhog is also called a woodchuck (as well as many four-letter words uttered by gardeners!), defined as "a grizzled, thickset marmot (Marmota monax) of the northeastern US and Canada; also any of several marmots of mountainous western North America." The marmot, in turn, is defined as "a stout-bodied, short-legged burrowig rodent with coarse fur, a short bushy tail, and very small ears." I would describe it as being far more similar, in body type, to a badger than a squirrel (but with a gentler disposition and a more squirrel-like head). The fur is brown with no discernable markings. When seen above ground, they move with a sort of lumpy waddle. And when they cross the road, they take their good ol' time about it. I've heard them nicknamed as "grinnies" by a friend from Ohio; perhaps catspaw can verify this as being a local term. They'd be more endearing if they weren't so destructive! |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jan 02 - 11:18 AM Woodchuck! As in "How much wood can a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could and would chuck wood."
You learn stuff here you wouldn't elsewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: catspaw49 Date: 11 Jan 02 - 11:21 AM Heah....Well here's ol' Phil's official site and the last picture yhat finally locks in after several in the in intro is a godd shot of a groundhog...in this case, Punxatawney Phil. Again though, we will not refer to it as Groundhog Day, but rather Whatevertafuck 2-2. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: SharonA Date: 11 Jan 02 - 11:24 AM Typo alert: Sorry, that Marmot definition above should have said "...burrowing rodent..." By the way, Candlemas doesn't seem to be a big deal around these parts; I'm sure most folks don't even know about it. Perhaps the Catholic church celebrates it, but in contrast to Kevin's description of "candles everywhere" overseas, there are basically "candles nowhere" here (except the occasional house where the Christmas lights in the windows are still turned on at night) (then again, some people leave those turned on all year 'round). |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: SharonA Date: 11 Jan 02 - 11:35 AM Kevin (McGrath): I'd learned that tongue-twister slightly differently: "How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?" catspaw: I was hoping you'd tell me if "grinny" is a common term in Ohio for groundhog, or if my friend simply invented it. Inquiring minds want to know! |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: NicoleC Date: 11 Jan 02 - 11:41 AM Joe, do you live in the same northern California *I* live in? I think you're happy-hallucinating all those flowers and springtime signs. All I see is fog :) Good luck this weekend. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Mrrzy Date: 11 Jan 02 - 12:48 PM thread creep: happy happ tomorrow, Joe! And now, back to the show: Well, ask a question, go away to await an answer, and look what you get! Good discussion, all, and some immediate responses… sorry for the long post, but this IS a very interesting discussion, as someone mentioned… MMArio – Ummm, how does noticing physical reality, like the fact that our orbit is elliptical and our planet's axis of rotation tilted from the orthogonal to the plane of that orbit, become religion? The days DO get shorter, nothing religious about that, in the fall. Also, I explained our take on presents – it's a physical demonstration of love of family, which is again, not religious. One can love without positing supernatural beings. Jeri – good song suggestions! And in your second post, I wondered that too… WYSIWYG – our midwinter would be pro-family, pro-love, pro-Spring Will Come Again; the celebration isn't anti-Christian or anti-faith, just Christ- or Faith-INDEPENDENT. I do admit that the thread title doesn't bear that out, but I'd hoped that my intro paragraph would. We incorporate a lot of Kwanzaa, just without the exclusionary language (PEOPLE should have unity, not Americans of African Ancestry should have unity, and so on). Ron Olesko – the reason Why Bother is that having the vestiges of Christianity in our hitherto-thought-of-as-secular midwinter holiday, which we did call Christmas, bothers some of us, most notably the (one) religious Jew and some of the (many) atheists. It would NOT bother the others NOT to celebrate Christmas, so that is why bother, I guess! Might as well not have anybody unhappy at the outset, or feeling excluded which my nephew certainly does more than I… and I have no arguments with celebrating the Solstice, after all, it really happens whether you are a theist or not, but we don't all have the solstice OFF, so we HAVE to do it at Christmas. We just don't want to DO Christmas then. And we're not trying to sell others on it, I am asking for opinions and guidance in how to do it and still have it MEAN something to us. Also, as a committed (or suitable for being committed?) decaf drinker, let me tell you, decaf has ALL the psychological Up power of coffee, AND just enough caffeine for the physical lift if you're caffeine-sensitive… Mark Clark – thanks, interesting article! MMario – yes, indeed, but many solstice things are real, not supernatural, so I have no argument with including them. I like the evergreen, especially, as a celebration of the human intellect, which possibly alone on the planet can realize, in the depths of winter, that Spring will come again. I love that. Joe Offer – I noticed that too, my kids are doing Hanukkah and Kwanzaa stuff at school, but can't do anything Christian-Christmassy… in high school once I did a paper on comparative religion, comparing the origin myth in ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, and modern Christianity, and got in all kinds of trouble for treating the Christian myth as mythology! Ridiculous. Unfortunately, it's the basic assumption of Christianity as NORMAL and of everything else as mythology/superstition that is at the crux, pardon the pun, of what bothers both Nick and me so much. We aren't Christians but that should not make use deviates, by definition, the way it seems to, and seems even more to at Midwinter. So in answer to another of your questions, just because something real, like an evergreen, also has religious connotations, doesn't mean it has to be eliminated. But the things that are ONLY religious and have no basis in actual physical reality, like Christ, angels, etc., are what I'm trying to circumvent. So much of the basic ancient Solstice stuff is fine, we just don't WORSHIP the planet as it orbits, we NOTICE and celebrate the breakpoints; I also note the equinoxes and the summer solstice… SharonA – you'd be AMAZED at what people in my family can take the wrong way! The ongoing argument with the very Jewish nephew all circle around the basic fact that WE are doing nothing to exclude him but nonetheless, what we do DOES leave him feeling excluded, and I am on his side to a great extent. I agree with you that people OUGHT NOT take things the wrong way, but we are dealing with an already dysfunctional group, remember! LOL! I wish I could say that all songs of peace and goodwill are fine; but I really mind the ones that say it's So you'll go to heaven later, or So some supernatural being will be happy with you, OR that it's the angels who brought this idea to humans, and all the other devaluing-of-humanity garbage, sorry, there really is no better word, that putting religion between people and reality does. Rant off for now… RON Olesko, I'm going to try again… there already IS a holiday that is being celebrated on Dec. 25th. We don't want to have NO holiday where the whole family gets together, overeats, and gives presents to each other. The trick is to have a holiday that includes our whole family, some of whom are Moslem, some Jewish, one Christian (unless you count the extendeds, which includes Catholics, Mormons, Quakers, and others), and the large majority is atheists. Giving gifts is NOT tied to religion by definition, how did you make that leap of logic? Yes, birthdays and anniversaries are nice, but they do not include the whole family, who travel for hundreds of miles once a year to be together and share presents. We can't call an entire-family holiday just because one or two people are having a birthday, or a couple is having an anniversary. Just because the evergreen ALSO has religious connotations doesn't make it religions, it's a real-life tree. Do I make more sense now? SharonA said it for me, but I hadn't read that far yet… And RonO, it isn't that we are unwilling to get together, it's just that because of the basic assumed Christianity of this country, yuletide is the only time of year we all have off from work. And I thought I was trying to do the exact opposite of "taking the symbols and themes of the holiday and making [them] serve another purpose" – I'm for keeping the holiday and changing the symbols and themes! 53 – see all above Jerry Rasmussen – BINGO. That is one of the things I'm asking for advice on – I was willing to call it Midwinter, but that isn't accurate as was pointed out, so how about NeoWinter? New celebration, new winter, etc? McGrath of Harlow – You say re: minding all the Christmas stuff as Jpe Offer mentioned – "I can't. I've don't feel the least bit uncomfortable about Muslims celebrating Ramadan and Id-al-fitar, or Jews celebrasting Passover and Hanukah , or Hindus with Divali and Holiand so forth. The more celebrations the better, and the more we all feel invited to join in them the better still." I would normally agree with you BUT Hanukkah and Kwanzaa are so visibly afterthoughts, with everything DEFAULT being Christian; I have NEVER anywhere in the US seen a Sears doing Ramadan sales. I have never anywhere seen a store even doing a Hanukkah sale. If all were treated equally, I wouldn't mind. What I do mind is the ASSUMPTION that Christianity is the norm, the default, and that anything else is "something else" – and atheism isn't even a possibility. Yuck. And again, we are stuck with Dec. 25th because this assumption is our own governments' as well. Double yuck. MMario – and well it should be! Liz the Squeak – I was hoping to hear from you on this one! Yes, Yule is OK with me – even if it has religious CONNOTATIONS it isn't BY DEFINITION a religious thing – and yes, we do need a secular word for holiday! How about Great Day? It would sound like a Southerner swearing, but hey, I hear a lot of that anyway… to become greday eventually, à la holy day becoming holiday. Lepus Rex – if it was just me being atheistic, I'd agree with you, but there is that pesky fundamentalist nephew, who isn't atheistic, so it DOES offend his whatevers, unfortunately…and no, nobody had mentioned Festivus! Whazzat? But about Santa, for some reason, he's OK with the nephew at issue, go figure. I'd rather eliminate him too except for the goodness it's worth in December (don't do that, Santa might see you!)… CapriUni, good explanation of solstice etc. Yes, logistics are logistics, gender remaining irrelevant. But the solstice is planetary, not hemispherical, it's just our winter one is their summer one. They have their winter solstice in our summer. Clint Keller, if only it were so easy! Some of us, you see, care. And I think all of us, not just CapriUni, will be quoting that art/critic phrase! Very good one! Joe Offer – them Catlicks sure know how to throw a wedding! They didn't mind the likes of us at all, it will be excellent, my well-wishes will be with you though I will not… Misophist – actually the plan is that the holly represent evergreens, the tree represent evergreens, and the mistletoe represent evergreens. Evergreens are the symbol of humanity's ken, that despite the physical appearance of the world, we have the knowledge, or foreknowledge if you will, of the future coming of Spring and the greening of what is now appearing to be dead. Baldur the Beautiful, Thor, Christ, or other mythological figures are not involved. MartyD – I actually had been wondering about Columbus day, why not call it Kill off the Indigenous populations day? Exploration day indeed, that alone implies that nobody knew of this land before the Europeans got there… what, the natives had no maps? (sorry! But that is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about!) Rolfyboy6 – Second the motion! JimmyC – exactly! That is why I don't want to CALL what we do Christmas! Dave the Gnome – I think you've been answered? McGrath again – yes, Groundhog day is ubiquitous in the US, but I don't think it's exactly CELEBRATED, more noticed. Dani – beautiful, but not for me. Let's allow for some high days to be NOT holy. Freedom FROM religion! What an immaculate concept! Spaw – a better idea than you know, probably! I'm against the use of the year numbers we use, as they are based on Christianity; but then again, apparently anybody who counts the years starts them SOMEWHERE – and that somewhere is basically religious in all calendars. I'd like to see the years numbered according to reality, say they start with the uprise of humanity (nobody else cares what year it is), we'd be in, oh, say circa 5,002,002, so then the 2002 would be OK, just rounding error…??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Lepus Rex Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:08 PM Festivus was the holiday created by Frank Costanza on 'Seinfeld,' and takes place on Dec.23rd. Here's some information about the BEST HOLIDAY EVER (ripped off from some website because I'm too lazy to write it myself): "Many Christmases ago, Frank Costanza went to buy a doll for his son. He went to reach for it because it was the last one, but so did another man and as Frank rained blows upon him, he thought there could be another way. The doll was destroyed, but out of that, a new holiday was born. It was called Festivus. No, not feminist, festivus. A festivus for the rest-of-us... During the last few weeks in December when Festivus takes place, families and friends get together at the dinner table and have something called "the Airing of Grievances". Durning this time, we share with family and friends all the ways they had disappointed over the past year. After the Airing of Grievances, we get together right in the same night to do something called "Feats of Strength". This is where the head of the household tests his/her strength with another friend or family member. The great honour is given out to a different person each year... Now for the pole. No it is not a tree. A pole, no decorations. Frank Costanza believes that tinsel is very distracting so there are no decorations. The pole is tall, silver, hollow, long, skinny, and heavy..." So, that's Festivus, and I think it's what your family is looking for, Mrrzy. Ah, and it's also a kick-ass ice cream flavour. :) ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Dani Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:13 PM Mrrzy, I think what we've got is a wording thing happening. "noticing physical reality, like the fact that our orbit is elliptical and our planet's axis of rotation tilted from the orthogonal to the plane of that orbit...The days DO get shorter, in the fall...physical demonstration of love of family" To me, doing these things in awareness of them, of your part in them, MAKES them holy, and makes time spent with people you love sacred. I'm not talking about supernatural beings at all. Mindfulness of the blessings of love, and of the Earth, are religion enough for many, name it what you will. Dani |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Mrs.Duck Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:32 PM I think it's high time we had some new holidays here in England as the rest of the world seems to have more than us!! We have 7(?) public holidays a year including christmas so yes lets think of others. Hey if the christian church can hijack celebrations and make them their own then why not borrow a few from somewhere else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Mrrzy Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:35 PM O for crying out loud. Please do not make everything that is nice, sacred. Please. That is the worst possible case of foisting your religious beliefs on others. My awareness of reality doesn't make anything holy, or anything at all for that matter, Heisenberg or the quantum physicists notwithstanding. Sorry, Dani, but the bumpersticker that says God, save me from Your followers springs to mind. The time I spend with my loved ones is CHERISHED. It is NOT sacred, since BY DEFINITION that would make, say, having a crying meltdown during that time, sacrilege or blasphemy or an offense against somebody's (yours, very likely) god. Really! Sounds like the Jews I went to college with, telling me I HAD TO BE Jewish because some of my maternal relatives were offed in the Holocaust. Please. On the other hand, Lepus - the Airing of Grievances is a great addition to my yuletide or whatever! And instead of the Feats of Strength, we have the Telling of Old Tales, like the time I flooded the whole house reading Spiderman comics "while" the bathtub filled... Maybe since we are so matriarchal, the Feats of Strength have gone by the wayside... but I'd have to draw the line at the pole, though. As the African once told me (when asked why his tribe didn't eat white people) - what do THEY represent? Gotta have that greenery somewhere...? Quick, somebody ask George! |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: GUEST,Deda Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:37 PM Having been married into an orthodox Jewish family for 15 years (1972-1987), my educated guess is that the orthodox nephew will feel left out regardless, unless you all take up celebrating Hannukah, which actually doesn't usually overlap with Christmas; this year it started December 8 or 9, as I remember, and next year I think it comes even earlier. Anything you create will be outside of his tradition, which, if he is truly observant, is what really matters to him and has meaning for him. Anything that smacks of Christianity or Christian traditions will remind him that his people (read, his relatives, his family members, his parents' parents) have been hated, burned at the stake, accused of every conceivable kind of crazy horrors, generally persecuted, down through repetitive centuries. The fact that Dec 25 is a national holiday not only in the US but all over Europe just reminds him of how insecure and unsafe is his place in the world, outside of Israel or a few tight communities scattered across the world. He has a strong, rich, long and deep tradition of holidays and observances which have sustained and comforted Jews through the worst and hardest of times, and he no doubt believes that his are God's chosen people (the question is sometimes "chosen for what?", but that's a different thread altogether). What to do about holidays is something I struggle with pretty much every December, because I have an orthodox daughter and grandson, a non-believing son, and a husband who just likes to put up lights and a tree, and whose birthday is 12/26. I'm always ambivalent no matter what I do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Dani Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:00 PM Mrrzy, Having a crying meltdown would not at ALL seem blasphemous to me, Mrrzy. That's the point, I think. I think the best kind of time with people you love, and people you DON'T love, for that matter, includes the good and the bad. If it only included smiling faces of well-behaved people who opened and appreciated perfect gifts perfectly given, that would seem to me to be distinctly UNholy celebration. It's only when the turkey burns and the kid is brought home by the police for shoplifting that you start to figure out holy love. And I don't mean to say everyone, every thing, every experience is holy and sacred. I meant only to pin that on your response to Mmario's thoughts, just to recognize that there is stuff we don't get, but that many people ascribe 'religion' to. And I KNOW that you're disagreeing; that's fine! What I think you're saying is, take the STUFF out of all this, get rid of the baggage, the labels, the otherworldliness of it. I'm inclined to feel that way as well, but I am also inclined to believe that there ARE some things worth paying attention to on a deeper level, sometimes at the change of seasons, sometimes for no reason at all, and that doesn't mean YOU have to do it, or that you have to use the same words if you DO. Dani |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Mrrzy Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:14 PM Thanks, Dani. I just object -- strenuously-- when someone, anyone, takes their religious terms and tries to shove me, square peg that I am, into that round hole. If not observing something isn't blasphemy than that something isn't holy, or sacred, by the very definition of holy or sacred. You can THINK of me as sacred if you must, but you may not call what I do "making" anything holy. You can do the making, but you can't say that I am doing it, when I'm not, sorry! I think it was the phrase doing these things in awareness of them, of your part in them, MAKES them holy, and makes time spent with people you love sacred - if you'd simply added "to me" at the end, I'd not have argued other than to add QWell, not to me! It's this exact taking of a religious aspect of something, and turning into the very definition of that something even for the nonbelievers that I find so oppressively repugnant. The Nazis did exactly that to my Mom's family, who may have been Jewish by some definitions, but who celebrated Christmas, with live candles on the tree. Didn't help them one little bit, Barney! |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Ron Olesko Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:14 PM Mrrzy - I'm glad you responded again. You did a better job of clarifying what you were trying to accomplish. My initial response was based on a different take on what I read. From your response it seems like you are trying to create a wonderful event for YOUR family, an idea which is very admirable. One clarification on something I said that you questioned - the religious connection with gift giving is simple - gifts were given to symbolize the Magi's gifts to the Christ Child, as well as the connection with the legend of the real St. Nicholas. You are right, there needs to be nothing religious about giving a gift. I look at Christmas as a celebration of various cultures and folklores. The stories behind the various symbols of the season to me show the diversity of the holiday. Whether one chooses to celebrate the religious significance is a personal choice. It is the same with St.Patrick's Day - you don't have to be Irish to appreciate the culture. You don't have to be a Native American or a Pilgrim to celebrate Thanksgiving. As you pointed out, there is an assumed Christian society that we live in. It is nearly impossible to divest from all the vestiges of religion (check the printing on your money!) and finding common ground is rough. You've taken on an enormous task. I wish you luck and congratulate you for attempting to do something that brings the family together. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, use the existing symbols to take on new meaning in your celebration! Perhaps next year you can tell us how it went. Best of luck! Ron
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Mrrzy Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:25 PM Oh Ron, don't get me STARTED on the money, LOL! ANd I have to say, I would probably not be attempting this, if it weren't for the one nephew (bigoted as they come, but hey, he's young) who is so rabidly anti-Christmas, so the two of us faced the whole family and were soundly defeated... but we're trying through insidious means to regain an advantage, AAAH ha ha ha... it's fun, in other words. We'll see how it shakes out, indeed... |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: SharonA Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:34 PM Mrrzy: I'm sorry. I didn't realize the religious dynamic involved here. You say, "The trick is to have a holiday that includes our whole family, some of whom are Moslem, some Jewish, one Christian [I assume this means Protestant, such as Baptist or something] (unless you count the extendeds, which includes Catholics, Mormons, Quakers, and others), and the large majority is atheists." Yikes! That's a tall order, if even one of them feels excluded by anyone else's tradition (as your nephew seems to be, though no one means to offend him). If I were in your position, I would've thrown up my hands long ago and said to everyone, "Now, LOOK. This is MY house and I'll decorate it any way I damn well please, and I expect you all to be gracious and make nice compliments about how nice everything looks, and play along with whatever secular entertainment I've planned for the evening. Next year, we'll all go to [very Jewish nephew's name]'s place and we'll all be kosher for a day, and the year after that we'll go to [Moslem relative's name]'s place and wish each other a happy Ramadan AND LIKE IT!!! But for today, the @#$% angel is gonna STAY on the @#$% tree while we gather 'round the @#$% piano and sing 'We Wish You a Merry Dollar-mas' !!!!!" But then, I'm dysfunctional, too.... *G* Seriously, though, why don't you send a questionnaire to all the relatives involved and ask them to list the things they'd like to sing/eat/do during your get-together? I suggest a questionnaire rather than a face-to-face discussion so that people won't get into an argument (at least, not quite so easily). Then tally up the answers and see if there are any things that each person has requested. If so, you've got your holiday plan. If not, then tell everyone that there's no point in arguing because everyone will never agree... so y'all had better agree to disagree. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Ron Olesko Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:34 PM He is young, he will probably mellow in later years!! To me, the wonderful thing about December is the diversity of celebrations that are taking place. All the religions seem to be celebrating something and if people look hard enough they will see how the celebrations mingle. I love folklore and this is a wonderful time of year where people can reflect on their heritage and appreciate those of others. As for the money, you are right!!! It seems to be how much you spend and the thought behind why you are giving a gift is lost. But that is another thread!!! As you mentioned though, it is fun. That is the thought that everyone needs to remember, no matter how they celebrate! Enjoy!!!! Ron
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Mrrzy Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:50 PM SharonA, you're a hoot! If I were hosting, I'd consider it! And the nephew in question already hosts (well, his Mom does) Thanksgiving, and boy was it Kosher this year, and while we all made fun of it to each other but NOT TO THE ONE WHO INSISTED, it went fairly well, even if we DID have to lie to Mom and pretend there was butter in the mashed potatoes (Now who's being dysfuncitonal???) which were made with marge and soy milk and were the best mashed pots I ever ate, having been made with baked potatoes. And the Christian niece doesn't call herself anything more precise than Christian, but she doesn't confess so I guess that makes her Protestant, yes? And she is The Keeper of All Traditions (no you can't sit there, that isn't where you sat last year and the year before...) and SHE doesn't mind taking the angels off the tree... much... so there is hope! |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: SharonA Date: 11 Jan 02 - 03:12 PM Mrrzy: From what I understand, all Catholics are supposed to confess, but I can't speak for every individual! LOL! It just scared me a little bit when you separated "Christian" from "Catholic" and "Mormon"! Of course, some people consider themselves "christian" with a small "c" (as Dani mentioned earlier, in her experience with the UU's). <>br> Anyway, I'm glad to hear that there's hope. I've pretty well given up on that concept where my own family is concerned!! Did you read this story of mine on the "Cracker Jokes" thread? |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Dani Date: 11 Jan 02 - 03:27 PM Oh, well, you can just always add that ", to me" on whatever I say, because I almost always speak from my *&@&#* soapbox. A nasty habit. Wish we could all argue about this over some eggnog and whiskey in person! Dani |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Mrrzy Date: 11 Jan 02 - 03:32 PM Eggnog and Whiskey (I especially like Bourbon here though I'm usually an Irish drinker), yum yum! And I'll check that story too... |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Mrrzy Date: 11 Jan 02 - 03:36 PM Re: your story, possibly the gravy would have "accidentally" ended up in the offender's lap, maybe not; it would depend on my personal history with the individual. I can't imagine something like that going unchallenged at our table, though! Man, even the nicest things rarely go unchallenged chez nous! |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 11 Jan 02 - 04:13 PM All praise to Mudcatters. This thread could have been grossly offensive to Christians. For all the wild range of opinions expressed, there's been a basic respect in the postings. Good for you Mrrzy! May we all find our own reasons to rejoice in the darkest days of Winter and when we can, let's enjoy it together.< Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: catspaw49 Date: 11 Jan 02 - 04:45 PM I think, upon continued and further reading here, my idea for an International Holiday Registry has a helluva' lot of merit. An awful lot that has been written here could be solved! Until then, let me wish you all a Joyous Whatevertafuck 1-96!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: CapriUni Date: 11 Jan 02 - 05:10 PM Mrrzy -- Yes, I know that the solstice happens all over the world (at least for those who live a certian number of degrees lattitude north and south of the equator). But a winter solstice has a different emotional connotation than a summer solstice, which is why I only specified the Northern Hemisphere in my post. As for the decorating of my tree (which you specifically asked about in your opening post and I never seemed to get around to mentioning), I top it with a stylized sun cut from paper, and painted with iridescent copper paint. Other ornaments (also of paper -- I have two cats and don't want to do anything breakable) included spirals to represent the turning cycle of life, and "valentine" hearts. Next year, I'm thinking of decorating the tree with silk flowers, and little toy plastic animals, such as you can in stores specializing in "educational" toys, so that the tree truly represents the "Tree of Life"... But my imagination perrenially gets away from me, so don't count on it. :::Toungue firmly planted in cheek, here::: If members of your family insist on having something with wings on the top of your tree, why not do a representation of a dove? You could keep the peace by telling the Christians that it represents the Holy Ghost which impregnated Mary, the Jewish lad and the Muslims that it represents the dove that Noah sent out, representing God's covenant with Man, and for the Atheists, it's just a nice looking bird, which, like the evergreens, represents the birds that will return in the spring ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Steve in Idaho Date: 11 Jan 02 - 05:14 PM After a long Winter's nap - Well Mrrzy - no one has yet figured out your gender and I'm real proud of you *G*. After not seeing you post for so long I really enjoyed this one. The Holidays are just that. Holidays. The time away from work is great, we focus our energy on the little ones in our crew, and simply gather to attempt reconciliation from the perceived injustices of the prior year. My family isn't dysfunctional it is Maladaptive (political correctness begins at the Cat). Actually we really don't enjoy being around each other a lot so whatever that may translate into *G*. Since I don't shop for Christmas I don't hear the music, and the extended periods of decorating are also lost on me. I do enjoy the occasionally well decorated house as it evokes good memories of my childhood. Jan and I figure Christmas is an idea - since words are verbal symbols that represent different things to different people - we use the symbol year round. In March it could be a new pair of boots - "Merry Christmas Hon!" Or in July it could be a new straw hat - "Merry Christmas Hon!" and even in the month in question yes it can happen. So my Partner and I have taken the symbol and integrated it year round. We recognize what gives us pleasure and ignore that which we could choose to take offensively but don't. Glad to have you back Spaw. For a bit there I thought you had a lobotomy or something. And here in the states we have 12 holidays - Heh heh heh - lazy colonials anyway! Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: CapriUni Date: 11 Jan 02 - 05:17 PM But Spaw -- "Whatevertafuck 12-_____" would be a real headache for the song writers out there. I mean, it doesn't scan very well, and would be a real bitch to find a rhyme for. How would we write Whatevertafuck carols? |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: catspaw49 Date: 11 Jan 02 - 05:28 PM No need to change a thing Capri.....You just go on celebrating as usual with all the usual trimmings. While you have Christmas with all the Carols and trees and such, I can write my own stuff for "Aunt Marge Wipes Out the Piggly-Wiggly" Day! Neither of us will inflict pain on the other and and the only things that need to change are the stores and that sort of thing and the greeting cards. I can wish you a Merry Christmas by sending you a card that I simply fill in the blanks on with the number of Christmas. You can do the same for me by filling in the blank aftter finding the number of Aunt Marge Day in the Master List. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: GUEST,Deda Date: 11 Jan 02 - 05:33 PM Also I think Hallmark would have a hard time coming up with cute rhyming jingles for "Whatevertafuck 12-_____" -- Let's see, "On the first day of Whatevertafuck 12-_____, my true love gave to me...." |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: SharonA Date: 11 Jan 02 - 06:06 PM Hmmm... let me try my hand at that Hallmark doggerel: When dear Aunt Marge, who's plump and jiggly, Goes and wipes the Piggly-Wiggly, "Have a great..." she's sure to say "...Whatevertafuck 12-__ Day!" or "Whatevertafuck you do, my friend, Whatevertafuck you say, You know I'll wish for you the best Whatevertafuckin' day!" Yeah, I could see that on a card with an illo of a disgustingly cute kitten! |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: SharonA Date: 11 Jan 02 - 06:11 PM ...or "Although I know the f-word doesn't pass your lips – no, never! – Go have the best Whatevertafuck 6-9B2 Day ever!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: catspaw49 Date: 11 Jan 02 - 06:25 PM Sharon, you are now in charge of the "Song &Greeting Card Division" of The International Holiday Registry.....and I never heard anything but groundhog, rarely even woodchuck. Here it's generally pronounced "grounnawg." Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Jeri Date: 11 Jan 02 - 06:34 PM My mother hung those little birds you can buy at crafts stores on the tree one Christmas. (She also hung the real Christmas ornaments on the roots of a tree that had blown over in a storm an crashed through her roof one Aug. I have newspaper photographs to prove it.) Mind you, this insanity was perfectly intentional on her part. My guess is that people, including family members, may be a lot more polite if they think you're about to go over the edge. Birds belong in trees anyway, and would be a sign of the coming spring. Maybe you could decorate some eggs and make ornaments. (Yes, Mom did that, too.) Maybe you could start a tradition of family members supplying handmade ornaments, either decorative or symbolic of something important to them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: SharonA Date: 11 Jan 02 - 06:35 PM Spaw, thanks for the honor! What fortune! What luck! What more can I say but: Whatevertafuck!!! ;^) |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: GUEST,Conán Date: 11 Jan 02 - 10:33 PM Why is it that not one contributor even attempted to respond to Jimmy C's thoughts as a Christian ? Were they too sincere ? Were they suspect just because they came from a believer? I should have thought that his opinions, above any others, should have been treated with more respect. Had a Musulman or a Hebrew voiced sincere doubts about attempts to de-religionise*their* particular celebratory days, I'd bet my life they would have had more than a plethora of conciliatory and sympathetic supporters. It is becoming increasingly clear that one is free to believe anything or nothing in today's Western Society with one major proviso - IT MUST NOT BE CHRISTIAN ! All I can do is pray for the poor benighted individuals who feel that *my* religious beliefs in some way threaten *them*. Conan |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: CapriUni Date: 11 Jan 02 - 11:14 PM Guest, Conan: I responded to Jimmy C.'s post... I said I agreed with him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 12 Jan 02 - 01:08 AM Celebrate Saturnalia...many kindred Mudcatters do the same
Truthfuly ... most conservative Christians would rather not have you profaning their celebration...and most pagan's want no connection to a redeamer.
We can both share similar dates.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: CapriUni Date: 12 Jan 02 - 01:32 AM Oh, Gargoyle, I agree. I try never to profane anyone's religion. I sincerely wish all Christians a deeply meaningful and sacred Christmas, and I accept all wishes to me for a "Merry Christmas" as easily as I accept a hug (And I take hugs like I take my chocolate -- you can never have too much ;-)). Just because I celebrate my winter holiday at the same time as Christmas doesn't mean that I intend to denigrate Christmas at all... After all, there are occassions when Chanukah and Christmas overlap (rare, but I remember it happening a few times), without there being the sense that one holiday is trying replace another. I don't see why there should be the fear that Yule is.
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Ebbie Date: 13 Jan 02 - 03:12 AM Mrrzy, this is what you said you want: entire-family holiday. Why not call it that? EFH, perhaps pronounced Effa or EPHA. Lots of good ideas available on decorations if the family brainstorms. Hey, you could even have a tree and hang pictures of the extended family on the branches, perhaps with the matriarch or patriarch on the top. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: katlaughing Date: 13 Jan 02 - 04:37 AM Call it a Circle of Life Celebration and decorate with symbols of each family member's beliefs. We've always used cranberries, paper chains, clip-on craft birds, cardboard stars covered in tinfoil, ribbons and bows, glass icicles, bells, and other non-religious stuff to decorate our tree, plus stars, moons, suns, and music symbols. I use a lot of purple and green to get away from the usuall red and green. One thing no one has mentioned is what I see as a distinction between "religion" and "spiritualty." Mostly we celebrate in a spiritual way, much as others have noted, reminding ourselves first and foremost that it is a time for family to get together and express their gratitude and love for one another and to have fun together. BTW, there is an old folk story in the same book from which I got Golden Cobwebs, which you may have heard on Ron's Christmas show. It is Why The Evergreens Keep Their Leaves in Winter. I will post it, sometime, but the gist is a small bird was injured and couldn't fly south for the winter, so it went from tree to tree asking for shelter. The evergreens were the only ones to respond with kindness, sheltering and feeding the little bird throughout the winter. At that point, they were deemed worthy of keeping their leaves year round. In the old days out West, at least in Wyoming, Thanksgiving was the biggest holiday for get-togethers. The weather was generally still somewhat safe for travel then, so people would come in from the ranches or over to someone else's ranch and have a big whoop-ti-do. By Christmas-time, they were all snowed in and kept home tending livestock, etc. until the Big Thaw in late Spring. Winter lasts a long time in Wyoming.:-) Conversely, when we moved east and I got to know my in-laws better, their big tradition was to all get together on New Year's day at Roger's mom's house. As they were all grown and married, she felt they should all spend Christmas with their own families and never expected them to come over then. On NYD, she cooked up a storm and everyone had a blast. Mark Clark, thanks for the wonderful link. That reminds me, I usually use a lot of incense and candles, too, plus I always have a few crystals hanging around, they pick up the lights so beautifully. Mrrzy...it will be interesting to hear how this goes for you. Thanks for an itneresting *read.* Oh, btw, everyone, I remember Mrzzy's gender!!**BG** katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: catspaw49 Date: 13 Jan 02 - 07:25 AM Entire Family Holiday? Circle of Life Celebration? .....and I suppose you actually believe that those are better than Whatevertafuck 12-261? Hmmph! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: wysiwyg Date: 13 Jan 02 - 08:23 AM Spaw, Sharon can direct us in craft activities designing those cards, at the Center. Conan, several active and often-vocal Christians posted in this thread. Mudcat has been around this pole, beginning from many directions, many, many times. By now it is occasionally possible to have a discussion that looks at specific things in a focused way. Responses of friendship and tolerance are as valid as the post you reference. And a lack of response to any single post does not mean, at all, that it was not heard and valued. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 13 Jan 02 - 09:03 AM Respect has to go both ways. I happen to love Jesus Christ, to be real straightforward about it. I don't know what I'd do without him in my life. I happen to love many dear friends who are Atheists. We respect each other for who we are. Truth is, everyone has faith in something, even if its just that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. I respect anyone who is trying to live an honest, loving life. I have family members who are atheists, and I love them just as much as those who believe in Jesus Christ as their personal savior. I also have family members who are Muslim. It's hard enough making it through your days sometimes, without trying to deny someone whatever they need to do it. I pray for those who don't believe in God, not because I feel superior, or am offended by their lack of belief. I don't pray that they be more like me. I pray that they become the person they have the potential to be, and that they find joy in doing it. We all need all the help we can get. So, why aren't more serious comments responded to, and flip, humorous ones go back and forth forever? Because most people come to Mudcat to find music, or just have a good time. Both valid reasons. When someone posts a problem, like slipping into a depression, we're all there to try to lend a hand. That seems a good way to run this place... I think Max and Joe do a fine job on running it. For someone who wants to have a more serious discussion, or just share experiences of faith, we can always leave a message, or communicate through e-mail. I DON'T expect anyone to respond to this. It's been a good discussion and people have said what they honestly believe. Even with tongue in cheek. Good. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: CapriUni Date: 13 Jan 02 - 01:25 PM ". It's been a good discussion and people have said what they honestly believe. Even with tongue in cheek. " And the challenge is to say what you believe with your tongue in cheek, and not bite your tongue... luckily, we're all typing ;-) :::Ducking and running::: Seriously, though, one of my favorite quotes on the value of religious diversity dates from way before Political Correctness became trendy: It is reasonable that whatever each of us worships is really to be considered one and the same. We gaze up at the same stars, the sky covers us all, the same universe compasses us. What does it matter what practical systems we adopt in our search for the truth. Not by one avenue only can we arrive at so tremendous a secret. Quintus Aurelius Symmachus (A.D. c. 340-c. 402), Roman senator. Letter, written 384, to the Christian Emperor Valentinian II, pleading for the continuation of pagan ceremonies (published in Finley Hooper and Matthew Schwartz, Roman Letters: History from a Personal Point of View, ch. 10, 1991). [*] Really, if there really is only one God, then surely all acts of love, kindness, mercy and justice would be acceptable to Him (Her? The Divine is beyond gender, but our language isn't) regardless of the words we use to describe them to ourselves... in other words: "What that dud Quintus said." [*]Copyright information: The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations is licensed from Columbia University Press. Copyright © 1993 by Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Amos Date: 13 Jan 02 - 02:40 PM Seems like they had a better brand of Senator in their Empite than we do in ours, eh? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: CapriUni Date: 13 Jan 02 - 11:20 PM I dunno about that, Amos... this Quintus guy might have been just as rare than as he would be today.... I don't know if he ever got reelected... I don't think any of our current senetors think of the "big picture" in cosmic terms. But that's thread drift... |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: katlaughing Date: 13 Jan 02 - 11:37 PM That is well and good for those who believe in some sort of diety, Capri. Meaning no disrespect, just an observation. Love reading such ancient words. Thanks for posting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Dave the Gnome Date: 14 Jan 02 - 08:23 AM Just a sudden flash of inspiration (Careful - I need to lie down in a minute...) When Gnome the Younger #1 (Andrew - Brought up Catholic, of Russian Orthodox and Cossack decent.) married to his now missus (Lee - good Jewish upbringing - still sticks to certain bits) Neither particulary wanted a civic ceremony as they felt these were a bit austere. They compromised on a Unitarian service. It consisted of bits of both customs and was a really beutiful experience. Everyone on both sides seemed to be happy with the idea - even my Dad who is a real Christian traditionalist and still Russian Orthodox at heart! I could be wrong (usualy am!) But I understand that the Unitarian faith acknowledges the existance of Christ (and happily accepts the prophets of other religions) but does not believe in Christ as part of the 'Holy Trinity' and therefore is not Christian by the standard definitions. Anyone know if it is worth more investigation? I would be interested as well - particularly if it means I can celebrate even more;-) Cheers Dave the Gnome |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: mack/misophist Date: 14 Jan 02 - 10:28 AM In response to Dave the Gnome, a Unitarion minister once told me one could be a good Unitarian and an Athiest, both. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Mrrzy Date: 14 Jan 02 - 11:03 AM Guest Conan, I think the general response to Jimmy C's wasn't Let's ignore this, it's that it isn't relevant to THIS thread. I am not forced to celebrate either Ramadan or Hanukkah the way I have Christmas shoved down my throat, as it feels to me sometimes, living in the USA. So I have no issue with the way Ramadan and Hanukkah are celebrated here, since they are irrelevant to the problem I posted about, which was getting away from the Christianity and still having a midwinter family holiday on Dec. 25th, since that is the day we all have off from work or school. I am NOT pushing for Ramadan and Hanukkah or Kwanzaa or even a pagan Solstice or other non-monotheistic celebrations being as publicized and ubiquitous as Christmas; I'm trying to get the religious aspects of Christmas to be as low-key as those other holidays are, or in my family, eliminated as irrelevant to anything WE celebrate on that day. Even the one Christian niece doesn't celebrate the Birth of Jesus on that day, she celebrates family and love and everything we do. Should she want to pray or anything we wouldn't stop her, but if she does so far she must be doing it in private (very polite of her but not required by us), since I've never seen her do it. And about that Quintus quote, an atheist friend of mine once told me that he figured, if he were wrong about the existence of god(s), then he still wasn't worried, as he was living a good life and doing good deeds, and that would certainly be good enough for any god(s) whether you worshipped them or not. If not then that god or those gods aren't worth worshipping at all. So why worship? Seems very similar... |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: SharonA Date: 14 Jan 02 - 11:05 AM Susan (WYSIWYG): LOL! Mrrzy: Over the weekend, I remembered something told to me by a Jewish boyfriend I once had, with whom I lived for two years: He said he felt threatened by me because I have a lot of Hallmark ornaments (Christmas and other) that I displayed in what was then "our" place, and because my brother has two Norman Rockwell prints on the wall at his place. He said these things reminded him of the persecution of Jews by Christians. I said he was being oversensitive since (a) though I was raised by fundamentalist Protestants to be a hard-ass Christian, I've rejected that plan for my life and don't worship Christ or consider myself a Christian at all; (b) far from persecuting him, I accepted him into my home to live with me; and (c) though Rockwell's artwork and humor appeal to me, I didn't and don't display any of his prints myself!! I argued in vain that since my embarrassingly overly-cutesy figurines didn't symbolize anything to me, my display of them shouldn't be taken as a threat to him. Just one of the many little (and not-so-little) differences we had that eventually broke up the relationship! |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 14 Jan 02 - 12:10 PM 'sfar as I know, Unitarians consider Christ a profit, but not the son of God. Just as the Jehovah's Witnesses do. That makes neither religion Christian. The Muslims also consider Christ a Prophet... not sure about the Mormons.. we have Morman neighbors, so maybe I'll ask them. I know that they won't be threatened. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: CapriUni Date: 14 Jan 02 - 12:37 PM (From Katlaughing, re: the Quintus Symmachus quote): "That is well and good for those who believe in some sort of diety, Capri. Meaning no disrespect, just an observation. " Not necessarily, Kat. Couldn't science be considered one of the "practical systems we adopt in our search for the truth."? Indeed, according to a scientist, it's the most practical of practical systems. But you're right... I used "Divinity" as the all-inclusive term, when I should have used "Ultimate Reality", which could just as easily apply to the laws of physics (quantum or Newtonian, take your pick), or the natural law of human civilization and reason as to a supernatural being. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: CapriUni Date: 14 Jan 02 - 12:41 PM Oops! I didn't turn off the italics like I meant to, after "science"... I also just realized that I called Quintus a "dud" when I meant to call him a "dude"... This feels like an episode of the Electric Company! :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Mrrzy Date: 14 Jan 02 - 02:06 PM Hee hee - that's PROPHET, I think, Jerry Rasmussen! And SharonA, that is what is happening with the nephew, who FEELS excluded no matter what we do to include him. And CapriUni, if it's REALITY, whether Ultimate or not, it DOES NOT apply to the supernatural. By definition. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: Mrrzy Date: 14 Jan 02 - 02:13 PM Now continued in new thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: SharonA Date: 14 Jan 02 - 02:25 PM Link to part 2: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: John J Date: 15 Jan 02 - 02:08 PM Refresh....just to keep it alive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: GUEST,Cathy Christian Date: 15 Jan 02 - 04:09 PM I got tired of reading about half way down the thread so I don't suppose anyone will read this. Giving presents for Christmas is a relatively new idea. Before that, gifts were given at New Year's and Christmas was spent in church at mass giving thanks for the coming of The Christ - or at Christ Mass. I study Elizabethan England and there are many stories about Elizabeth I making presents for her family for New Years (mostly translations of religious text handwritten). Christmas is a religious holiday celebrating the birth of The Christ. Nothing more or less. Humans have made it into this mass marketing giant. And for that we will pay. |
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Subject: RE: BS: De-Christianizing Christmas From: SharonA Date: 15 Jan 02 - 04:21 PM John & Cathy: When a thread has more than 100 posts in it, some folks can't bring it up on their computers. That's why yo'll see most long threads divided into parts ("continued on part 2, part 3, etc."). Those that aren't divided up should be! So please, don't post any additional comments here. Instead, please post to the thread called "MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued". Thanks! Here's the link to that thread, once again: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued |