Help: history of irish folk music

Subject: history of irish folk music
From:
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 06:49 AM

I need some information about irish music. Who were the first artist, Where did they begin playing this music, Wat kind of instruments did they use, and more.

please cotact me if you know something, thanks.

Leon Dutton.

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 08:17 AM

The first and greatest Irish band was and is Sorcha Dorcha. You can hear them, this friday, in concert, in Asheville North Carolina. They are based in New York and have a great Uilleann Piper (the first Irish Instrument ever invented). Also on the bill will be Peggy Seeger and Si Kahn, who, although they are not Irish have had a huge infulence on Irish music. Hope to see you there.
The plugomatic... Lor.

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 08:35 AM

Here's one site that may help...

I'm gonna try a blue clickety for the Ceolas music site, hopefully it will work - have been shamed in to trying it...

cliclick here

Ella

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 08:36 AM

oh poo

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: GUEST,Mary
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 08:36 AM

InOBU: Reading your message, I was a little bit puzzled:

Sorcha Dorcha are the first artists that ever played Irish Folk? And they still have concerts? You don't know any Reel or Gig, that is older than this group? No Irish people that played music earlier? Maybe I don't know that right, because I'm not Irish, but I always thought that people from Ireland make a lots of music for such a long time, that you couldn't make out the beginning... But if you could tell us more about the real beginning of Irish Folk, I would be very pleased.

Mary

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 08:43 AM

Ceolas

this may work this time!

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: PeteBoom
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 09:04 AM

InObu - well done! Irony is lost.

The Ceolas link provided by Ella will give some good information. Failing that, there are several very good books on the subject. I will dig out a couple of examples and post the titles/authors/publishers when I get a chance.

Regards -

Pete

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: PeteBoom
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 09:04 AM

InObu - well done! Irony is lost.

The Ceolas link provided by Ella will give some good information. Failing that, there are several very good books on the subject. I will dig out a couple of examples and post the titles/authors/publishers when I get a chance.

Regards -

Pete

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 09:10 AM

These are a few off the top of my head:

Narrative Singing in Ireland by Hugh Shields

Social History of Irish Traditional Music by S.C. Hamilton

Irish Traditional Music by Ciaran Carson (this is a small Appletree (? I think) Press book which gives a wonderful intro to the the music.

The first two are pretty substantial reading, the last one is a simple, easy to read intro. Without knowing what you want the information for, it is hard to recommend books--if would you please let us know what you are looking for, we can better direct you to the right books!

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 09:12 AM

ok... I'm going to try again - I can't link to the above.

Sorry...

ceolas again

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 10:22 AM

Dear Mary:
We're quite old, older than old. I remember when the idea for Irish music frist struck. I was sitting in a bog with my pal Cathal McConnel, and says I, Cathal, I just took a notion. I pulled a peice of bog wood out from under me and drilled a few holes in it and said, what can you do with that, boyo. Well, I suppose Cathal really got it all started. Within an hour he had a band together, Boys of the Lough. Well, Sorcha Dorcha got going soon after, though I did make the first flute. Well, Cathal, hearing us play said we were the hardest working band he ever heard. We played so much and so loud that the British came over to tell us to be quite and not disturb the neighbors (sorry about that). But, well, a few folks really liked our playing. CuChullain, for example, liked us better than killing folks! He invented Irish dancing, by the way.
Well, around his time, one of my band members, Skippy the Shouk, came up with the idea for Uilleann Pipes. He invented the double reed about six hundred years latter and then we could hear what he was doing, and it was really great. It took me a long time to learn the pipes myself, even after the reed was invented. Then came Edison and his record machine. I didn't trust it at first. I thought it was responcible for the death of my favorite piper, Michael Coombe O'Sullivan, but I later found I was wrong, he died of old age at only one hundred and twenty something, fancy that. He was burried with his pipes, but they were dug up and are still played everyonce and awhile by Liam O'Flynn (who really could be said to have invented Irish music - as much of what we were doing before Liam was Irish noise... but then again there was Willie Clancy...). Well, time when on and we recorded a CD, which you can get from us, if you really want to hear what the origional stuff was and is... but most of the rest you can find out from Ceolas.
Cheers Lorcan Ri na Currachi

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From:
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 11:13 AM

Leon. Irish Traditional Music is at least 500 years old, and quite possibly some of the tunes go back 1000 or 2000 years. Essentially as long as there were the people we know as Irish. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by Irish Folk Music. Are you specifically referring to that rise of Irish music in the early through mid 1900s?

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 12:23 PM

George, I'm not trying to be contrary here, but I know of no Irish traditional music scholars who would claim that any tunes are as old as 1000 to 2000 years. In fact, I don't know of any who will even say a tune could be as old as 500 years without written documentation of it.

Just a thought.

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From:
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 01:23 PM

hi george seto,

i'd like to know a bit of the modern irish music history before it got so populair. from the years 1700 to today. i'd like to know how it progressed trough the years and how it was handed down from one person to another.

leon dutton.

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 01:51 PM

Breandan Breathnach has written well on the subject as well as collected many tunes. Any history of Irish music needs to Include the history of the Irish in America, as many homesick expatriots continued a tradition that came close to disappearing in the old country. SOme notables would be Chief O'Neill of the Chicago Police Force (an Uillean piper) who with the help of many Irish musicians collected dances tunes, songs and airs in the late 19th century. In a way it was easier to collect tunes from all over Ireland in Chicago than in Ireland. Other emigrants included Michael Coleman, Hugh Gillespie, and a number early 20th century musicians who made recordings that in turn caused a revival in Ireland. Even though there are many professional musicians playing Irish Traditional music, the tradition has been carried forward and survived thanks to mainly non-professional folk musicians. Those who loved and respected the music, and took it seriously, more than just a hobby but didnt really make a living from it.

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 02:12 PM

Dear Leon, I I write tfrom the Burren in Co. Clare in Ireland. Firstly it has to be said that there are not too many books written on the history of Irish music...some of the best and most important are listed above. Can I add another to that short list. I had a book (Notes From The Heart- A Celebration of Irish Traditional Music (Poolbeg, Publ.) published here in Ireland 6 years ago and which covers various aspects of the history and development (recordings since the tuen of the century etc)and some musician profiles. While I dont claim that the book is the definitive written work, I think it makes for a good 'starter' for someone interested in the gen. history of the music. The book can be had from Ossian USA www.ossianusa.com. Good hunting. PJ Curtis.

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: GUEST,Nerd (borrowed computer)
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 02:20 PM

I'd agree that no tunes that we know of are 1000 years old, and very few, if any, 500 years old. In fact, jigs and reels and hornpipes as forms seem to be invented in the last two centuries. Although there was obviously Irish music 1,000 years ago, and we have some descriptions of it in mythological texts, we can't really say what it was like or how it was played.

Another good book to look at:

Gearóid O hAllmhuráin "A Pocket History of Irish Traditional Music"

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: DougR
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 03:43 PM

Larry: There you go again, wearing your modesty on your sleeve. :>)

Leon: InOBU was just siezing the opportunity to shamelessly advertise his band's appearance in North Carolina. Be that as it may, if you are anywhere near the performance place, don't miss it. I have their CD and it is a very good group.

DougR

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: GUEST,PJ Curtis
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 04:16 PM

I concur with Guest Nerd (above). 'A Pocket History of Irish Trad. Music' by Gearoid O'hAllmhuruin is terrific book and may also be avb. thru Ossian USA. Gearoid is also a highly respected traditional musician(concertina) from Clare with two supebr albums to his credit. Def. worth seeking out. PJC

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 06:02 PM

I will third the suggestion for Gearoid's "A Pocket History..." as well as Breathnach's "Folk Music of Ireland" (I think).

The three books I mentioned:

"Narrative singing in Ireland" is the only substantial work written on the song traditions, and despite the title, it really isn't only about narrative song. It has a very good chapter on lyric song (which is what the vast majority of Irish song in Irish is, rather than narrative or ballad), and on what is often referred to as sean-nos.

"Social history of Ireland" is written by Irish flute player & UC/NUI Cork lecturer Hammy Hamilton.

The little Appletree Press book is by Ciaran Carson, well known Northern poet and Irish traditional musician who also wrote a book about his experiences with the music called "Last Night's Fun". I didn't care much for the latter, but I think "Irish Traditional Music" by him is the best brief overview of the music I've seen. It is a toss up between it and Gearoid's book, IMO.

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: Jimmy C
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 06:23 PM

Guest.
I have a little book " Four centuries of music in Ireland" edited by Brian Boydell. First published in 1979 by the British Broadcastinf Corporation. It contains a number of essays based on a series of programmes broadcast to mark the 50th anniversary of teh B.B.C. in Northern Ireland. I quote from a passage from the introduction " The approximate timespan of four centuries is imposed by the almost complete lack of any precise evidence concerning the nature of music performed or produced in Ireland befopre the end of the 16th century. We do know from literary and pictorial evidence that music played an extremely important part in the social life of medieval Ireland. What was clearly a polyphonic choir was established in St. Patrick'e Cathedral in Dublin in 1431; and we know that harps such as the famous 14th century one in Trinity College were played by musicians who enjoyed a very high position in the social hierachy. A few fragments remains from the cathedral music but no trace remains of the music of the Gaelic civilization which was so enthusiastically described (albeit in rather vague terms) by Giraldus Cambrensis after his tour of Ireland in the 12th century.
- quote - the early Irish music was an aural tradition and no record has yet been found in hte form of written notation. The other reason which is probably important in connection with monastic and catherral music. is that the turmoil and warfare which so seldom left this unfortunate country at peace for very long, was hardly conductive to the preservation of manuscripts - unquote

As you see from the above snippets taken from the book, there was definitely some kind of folk music in the 12th century. I believe that there has been music in Ireland since the first celts arrived. We may have lost much of the music from the past, but the future looks really good ?.

Nice topic for a thread.

Slan

Jimmy

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 07:04 PM

It is a nice topic for a thread, I agree. But I don't see any contradiction in your quote to what I said.

From what I know, the oldest form of music in Ireland to survive in the modern era was probably women's caoineadh. But there is nothing that exists to prove it.

The other thing is, while I appreciate the accuracy of the text you quoted for it's time, 1979 is pretty dated for ethnomusicological documentation in Ireland. No one has found any long lost song or tune texts, AFAIK!

Slan agus beannacht

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From:
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 08:38 PM

I was exagerrating a bit. Most of the oldest bits of Irish music is about 3-4 hundred years old. However there are songs which have a basis back to the 12th century. I think it was "Be Thou My Vision"? So, that's 800 years back.

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From:
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 08:44 PM

Actually, I Was wrong. Apparently it goes back to the 8th century.

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 08:54 PM

Lorcan my friend, y'all keep this kinda' thing up and I'm gonna' hafta' take you out behind the barn and give you a good thrashin' boy!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 11:11 PM

Dear brother Spaw... Did I tell you that I invented the barn, and thrashing? That was before Fox invented Quakerism and I had to stop thrashing folks... but I digress, I was in the Burren, in the year two. I had all this hay (imported of course as I had been trying for six years to grow hay in the Burren, hydroponicly, as there is no soil, but as there was no water, I was, well screwed). So, now I had all this hay, so I built a wee building that I called a Burren to keep my hay. Folks mistunderstood what I was saying, and well, the rest is history... the rest of course, other than the CD, which is coming along nicely and will be available at the North Carolina gig, and can be pryed out of my withered grasp for a meer 15 bucks, plus a dollar fifty People's Music Network tax. Keep asking questions, my children, and I will keep making up answers. Listen to good music, and when your done with that, have a listen to Sorcha Dorcha and good night. - Lor
F**k'ssake but he is as daft as when he COULD drink wishkey....

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: pavane
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 07:22 AM

If you inquire too closely, you may well find that many songs you think are Irish are not, as far as is known from the earliest published or collected version.

Examples

Wild Rover English (Norfolk) Black Velvet Band - English (Barking, near London) Wild Mountain Thyme - Scottish

Similarly, many tunes in O'Niell's collection were also known in England, e.g. Jockie to the Fair, Princess Royal both used for Morris Dance.

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 07:25 AM

Hi Pavane... Drops of Brandy - English... But than again, Alan Tyne of Harrow, is actually Irish in roots, Newry Highwayman... Well, Irish is in the playing as much as, if not more than the authorship... Lor

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:15 AM

Well, if we are talking about written evidence of any tunes of Irish authorship (such as religious music), rather than strictly traditional folk tunes, then yes, there are tunes which can be dated back in the manuscripts.

However, I will state again, I know of no Irish traditional music scholars, and there are a number of them nowadays, who will claim there is authorship of traditional tunes which can be verified as being older than a few hundred years, and I'm not aware of any which predate the Middle Ages.

But this argument is really a bit silly. How old a tune is tells you nothing about the music. It just tells you it might be an old tune.

The Irish Traditional Music Archive in Dublin, on-line here:

http://www.itma.ie/home/itmae1.htm

gives a bit of the history. Combined with the above book suggestions Guest ll, you've got some work ahead of you if you have a serious interest in Irish music history.

There are a lot more academic resources, particularly about music from the Middle Ages, but it doesn't seem to be what you are looking for, so I'll leave it at that.

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:29 AM

Larry, you seem quite sure and all, but I don't know............These Irish and Roma roots ....... I dunno' man..........You maybe need to do some serious checking with this as well. You never know................

Spaw

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:41 AM

I hear arguments for the origins of Allan Tyne of Harrow/Valentine O'Hara in about equal proportions. Anyone got any evidence, rather than instinct? My own feeling is that it is more likely to be English than Irish. Can't remember if I tried to trace it back.....

Regards

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 09:16 AM

Forgot to mention website links in addition to books.

The Irish World Music Centre at the University of Limerick here:

http://www.ul.ie/~iwmc/

And if you are interested in finding out more about ethnomusicology and Irish music, there are some good links at the University of Washington's links site here:

http://www.lib.washington.edu/music/world.html

This site's links are about the most extensive I've found on-line for the study of British/Irish/American Folk Music (scroll down to it).

The Indiana University links site is good too, but not as good as the above for links to British/Irish/American sites. You'll find it here:

http://www.music.indiana.edu/music_resources/ethnic.html

Here is UCC's Irish music links page:

http://www.ucc.ie/ucc/depts/music/online/itmindx.html

Finally, this site gives links to some Irish early music sites:

http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1340/icm.html

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 12:15 PM

Oh yeah--and you're welcome too.

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: Airto
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 12:37 PM

PJ Curtis, who mentions his own book above, used to have the best music programme on Irish national radio. I haven't read his book but he certainly knows his onions.

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 02:21 PM

C`mon, what the hell more proof do you need, sure oul Giraldus Cambrensis whilst castigating the Irish for being a bunch of bog-trotters, did give them great praise for their music. And yes the music was there a long time before that. The Irish Saint Columbanus was said to have composed a song on his voyage along the Rhine whilst converting the heathen Germanic Tribes, and he was around in the Seventh Century. Ard Mhacha,

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 07:30 PM

Ah Very good, Spaw, with my big broad brimed Quaker hat, I often get mistaken for Amish... (the web page Spaw hot links above...) However, the Amish are one of the few things in the world I do not take credit for... they did it themselves.
For those who doupt that I invented Irish music... go to Dublin and see the Castle Otway Harp, in the national musuim... I carved it while inventing the slip jig... which is why I have a scar on my thumb...
Is mise le meas...
Lorcan Otway - Uilleann Piper and lead sing for Sorcha Dorcha and inventor of Irish music.

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:00 PM

There is one excellent book which hasn't been mentioned so far: The Companion to Irish Traditional Music edited by Fintan Vallely, Cork University Press, 1999. This is an invaluable directory, with a number of well-informed articles by people who know what they are talking about, such as Tom Munnelly, John Moulden, Angela de Búrca, Hugh Shields, Gráinne Yeats, and many others.

Blooming Meadows also by Fintan Vallely, is also a good guide to Irish music today: there are interviews with a number of different singers and musicians, with beautiful photographs.
While Irish music does indeed go back many centuries, and there are a very few airs and songs which can be dated back to the 16th century and earlier, the vast majority of the body of music which today is described as "Irish Traditional Music" belongs to the late 19th century. A great deal of the earlier music did not survive, in particular the harp music in spite of the efforts of Edward Bunting to preserve it. A lot has been recovered but it has had to be reconstructed as it had not been retained within the community - and there were many reasons for this loss which need not be gone into here.

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 09:40 PM

Go and get anything with the name Vallely on it, not only is Fintan a good writer, he is a great flute player and the cuz of one of the best living pipers, Cillian Vallely... what a family... Larry
PS and all the Valleys I have met are extrodinarily nice folks and deserve their great tallent...

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:42 AM

I have met Fintan, and can attest to his knowledge and playing ability, as well as his showmanship on a stage.

He also teaches world music at Maynooth I believe. I haven't read either of his books, but will say that he writes more in a journalistic way than an academic one, if that matters to the original poster.

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: GUEST,padraig
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:26 PM

First Irish music: Circa 1000 BC. Seamus and Sean are sitting round a fire. Out of boredom, Seamus begins banging a stick on the arse of a nearby goat. Sean turns to him and says, "Nice tune. But I think if we killed and skinned the bugger, stretched his hide across this new round thing I invented, we might be on to something." They do, and the rest is history.

Subject: RE: Help: history of irish folk music
From: leprechaun
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 01:29 PM

inobu. That's so cool! There from the start! You rock! Did you write that fine old traditional song "The same Old Shillelagh Me Father Brought from Ireland?" You could probably write a new song like, "I Was Irish Before Irish Was Cool." (but as we all know, Irish was always cool)

Bring your band to the west coast and steal me some whiskey will you?