Why is this place so bitter?

Subject: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,JJ
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:22 PM

I've lurked here for a while, and I've seen lots of people post stuff about how wonderful the community is here.

Personally, I don't see that. I see a lot of bullying, snideness, oneupmanship etc.

For me, the saddest thing is that I'll be slated for posting as a dreaded 'guest'

A bit of love and friendship would help here, I think

Love and peace to you all

JJ

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:35 PM

Just like Life really, eh? Well, what a surprise...

Sorry, but for the "I'll be slated for posting as a dreaded 'guest'" you might have fooled me, but no, sorry.

Try again tomorrow, eh?

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:35 PM

"Why is this place so bitter?"

Donno... I've never licked it to find out how it tastes...

.-)

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:36 PM

BUGGER! HTML crime AGAIN

Oh well...must mean its bedtime

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,McGRath at Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:39 PM

No need to worry JJ. Noone is going to slate you "for posting as a dreaded guest". Putting JJ at the end indicates that you are posting as yourself, rather than someone else playing games and trolling.

Noone at any time, that I have seen, has made any criticism of people for posting as GUESTS as such - as against the ones who, by leaving off any kind of handle, seem make it clear they aren't interested in any kind of two-way communication. Anonymity just isn't a problem, because most Mudcatters are in fact anonymous, in the sense that they do not post under their actual name.

As for friendliness and its reverse, nothing's perfect, but by and large this is a pretty friendly place, compared to any alternatives I've come across. Maybe you can help us can buck the trend by getting better instead of worse.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: michaelr
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:44 PM

Hi JJ - I'm relatively new here and don't know anyone personally, but from the posts I read the Mudcat looks like a representative cross-section of humankind: it takes all kinds.
If you check out threads like "Get well, Aine", you'll find lots of love and friendship expressed. And what you may be calling "bullying, snideness" etc. mostly seems to me like sarcastic banter between witty people. (Though there seems to be an unreasonable degree of Neil Young-loathing around here...)
Lastly, what little genuinely rude flaming I see here seems mostly perpetrated by Guests.
I like it here; there are lots of very intelligent, knowledgeable, and opinionated people around here... with the added bonus that a bunch of them are musicians! Folk musicians, even!
Stick around, you seem like a nice person.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:54 PM

To avoid bitterness, stay out of the non-music threads. Works for me.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 09:02 PM

Bitterness? I guess it's all in the ear of the beholder. Sarcasm, yeah, crudeness, yeah but I can't say I've read much that I'd call bitter. "cept for some of the Guest flamers. I didn't really take your post as incendiary.. Hey, but maybe I'm just to slow to get easily offended..
Jerry

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,Sonja
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 09:02 PM

JJ,
Sorry if you've happened to log on to the relatively few threads that are full of garbage. Most threads--especially the ones even remotely connected to music--are pretty civilized (though sometimes 'catters who know each other trade barbs in a good-natured manner that might not be understood as such by a "newby.")

I've rarely seen a "guest" attacked for being such, except when an anonymous"guest" posts very provocative opinions ("flaming").

There are a few feisty pets that we keep around for entertainment (you know who you are) who like to swat your leg as you walk by, the way my cat sometimes does. But they're really harmless, and if you're really down, they may even sit on your lap and purr.

Also, being a public forum, idiots are allowed to post, too, and they sometimes do. But on the whole, I've found--over the past 7 months, posting always as "Guest: Sonja"--that Mudcatters treat me, and others, very nicely.

If your experience is different, please keep visiting the Café, and I'm sure you'll find it a friendly place.

Sonja §:-)

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Rollo
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 09:05 PM

THEY LOATH NEIL YOUNG AROUND HERE???

OH NO!!!! WHY DIDN´T YOU TELL ME BEFORE??? HELP!!!

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 09:12 PM

I'm a relatively recent poster my self although I was a lurker and occaisional Guest w/name poster for a year and a half. I understand what you are asking and it takes a little while to learn who is who. The anonymous guests who say snotty things are hiding behind a cloak of no identity. There are also professional grumps with names. Those people can be contacted by the personal message system and have some accountability. Then there are single issue people. And then there are the those for whom the only thing is getting the lyrics into the Digital Tradition and they get grumpy about the story tellers (hence the BS designation) and they get grumpy about what they consider to be "the Rules" (an inevitable reaction of the literary scholar mind). So yeah, this isn't exactly an early christian love feast. Except that within a few weeks you figure out who is one of the flamers, who is one of the grumps, ignore those, and interact with the majority--and they're a pretty good group. And lots of them really know stuff. Don't be put off by literary jousting and the fact some of them have certain dislikes and narrownesses. Don't take it 'personal'.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: ddw
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 09:33 PM

GuestJJ,

If your question stems from some of the comments in 53's D chord thread, you should know there's history here.

Since 53 joined the forum a few months ago he has posted so incessantly and started so many inane threads, discussions with any substance often get pushed off the queue very quickly. Quite a few of us — including Catspaw49, one of the gentlest, most tolerant souls I know, and myself, who would probably never be called either gentle or tolerant — find it very annoying.

Since the powers here are pretty laid-back about what goes on the threads, they seem to be powerless or unwilling to do anything to curb the inanities. Those of us who like it here understand that, but we do lose patience sometimes.

Sorry your first tastes of the local catfish isn't to your liking.

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 09:56 PM

I think it's counterproductive to name names around here. {"You're worse than I am!" "No, I'm not." "Look at that thread!" "Well, how about your thread last week?" "That was needed!" "No, it was not! That was STUPID!" "Ha! You're the one that's stupid!") Can you tell I grew up in a large, argumentative family? LOL

Eb

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 10:14 PM

David, I think it's worth mentioning that 53BOB has also made some worthwhile comments and begun/contributed to some interesting discussions. He made a comment on Mrrzy's thread about string noise on the guitar which I thought was utterly poetic, saying something to the effect that the noise made by fingers sliding over the strings on an acoustic guitar was "the soul of the song, letting you know it's alive." I'd much rather have extra posts from someone who loves listening to and playing music, though he may be more talkative than most, than from many others who simply love to make people feel bad.

I agree with JJ, though, that there does seem to be more nastiness and rancor on the 'Cat than there was, say, a year ago. People seem to be quicker to take offense, to pick fights, and to make snide comments. In my opinion, some of this (maybe much of it) is due to the discomfort and unhappiness felt by many people since September 11 and the resultant economic woes and general jitteriness. I'm completely serious about that. It's amazing how far and how deep the ripples have spread. (The economy here in Hawaii is a case in point.)

Those 'Catters and guests who are unhappy and bitter will no doubt leak some of that into the 'Cat, as they do into the rest of their lives. And those of us who have the inclination to rise above it will no doubt continue to try to do so. "And life goes on within you and without you."

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 10:18 PM

A gentle old Mainer was sitting on his Piazza, rocking and smoking his pipe. His new neighbor came to the old man and asked "What's it like around here"? Old man says, "Well, what was it like where you came from?" New neighbor says "Nice town, friendly people, good place to live." Old man says "Well, you'll find it's just like that around here too."

A few days later, another new neighbor came to the old man and said, "What kind of place is this town anyway."? Old man says, "What was it like where you came from?" This new neighbor says, "It really sucked, town full of no good bastards, I hated it."! Old guy says, "Well, I'm afraid you'll find it just the same here."

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 10:24 PM

wow ddw, like proflific posting and inane threads hasn't been a feature of Mudcat for some time before that?

Maybe I'm wrong but the way I am reading it is that Bob 53 loves folk music but has a few problems at the moment (I seem to remember him mentioning meds in one post for example). I'm not pretending I enjoy the inane threads but in this instance, there may be more reason for it than some of the other stuff I consider to be equally inane.

I also seem to see a situation developing where people are laying into someone who doesn't seem to have the skills to answer back in well written English and someone who seems to be getting driven to a lower and lower point as a result.

I'm afraid I have to ask myself again whether Mudcat is really the caring community it seems to pride itself on being. Is any effeort made to understand those who don't seem to be fitting with the central group? I ask: "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you?

Jon

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 10:28 PM

I found BOB53's inanities more amusing than annoying.

I didn't like it when he strayed over the boundaries of good taste and made a couple of postings which verged on obscenity, but having read his postings on the "Sliding into depression" thread, I would venture to suggest that compassion rather than censure is merited in his case.

Murray

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Tweed
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 10:42 PM

Nicely put Jon Freeman. I agree on all points. I happen to enjoy reading "inane" threads as they seem to reflect a more human side of a person rather than knowledge gleaned and pasted from search engines. I'm hoping 53 will feel differently in the light of morning and not disappear from this place as it seemed clear to me that he got great enjoyment (on other nites) from being able to rub shoulders with other guitar players. I feel bad that a few here have jumped on him while he was down. A little understanding and patience will go a long way, and is a benefit to all parties concerned. So saith Tweed, the inane and unschooled.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 10:55 PM

Refer to comments under BOB53's, "If nominated, I will not run... If elected, I will not serve" or whatever it's called post. Peace. Bobert

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 11:06 PM

Bleh. Well, since I was someone who 'jumped on him while he was down,' I guess I haven't helped 53/Bob much. For the record, I wasn't aware that he was "down" until the day after I'd already made some unfortunate comments (comments that actually would have been inappropriate in any situation...) that ended up sounding more personal than I had intended...

So, JJ, if that's some of the bitterness you're talking about, know that I feel like a dick, that I've apologised privately to the offended party (no response), and that I'm not always such a jerk. So, like, don't let me put you off Mudcat.

:P

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: michaelr
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 11:11 PM

ddw - spaw is going to hate being outed like that.

kendall - PERFECT!

It comes down to the same question that prompted the Homeland Security Act or whatever the damn thing is called: Do you want Big Brother to look out for you at the expense of free speech and personal privacy? I, for one, relish the fact that there is no censorship on the forum, even if I have to put up with a few idiots' rantings.

Michael

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 11:35 PM

Kendall - You are my HERO OF THE WEEK!!! It's been a while since I gave the award - but you got it Brother.

I've been here for about a year or so and it is much less bitter than when I first arrived. But I've gotten to know a few folks and am learning to keep my mouth shut when the brain isn't working or my emotions are running the show.

I try fairly hard not to name names and that some of you have burns my tail a bit. I've said something on the thread you all are mentioning but those involved can't seem to come up with an apoplogy for their behavior. You don't like it then PM about it has worked quite well for me. I've made some very good friends as a result!

Steve

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 11:38 PM

I find it odd that some one who is on the outside can be jumped on for his "inanities"...but when some one on the "inside" does the same bloody things (for example LH and his why did the cat come back or his bloody shatner threads)...no one says a thing?

This place does disgust me at times.

Have any of you thought that maybe BOB has trouble expressing himself verbally? Have you thought that maybe because of his depression he might have a touch of anxiety, and so is not quite comfortable?

Gotta love the compassion of this place.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 11:46 PM

Lettin' the cat outta the bag is a whole lot easier 'n puttin' it back in.

If you're ridin' ahead of the herd, take a look back every now and then to make sure it's still there.

If you get to thinking you're a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else's dog around.

After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.

Never kick a cow chip on a hot day.

If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging.

Never slap a man who's chewing tobacco.

It don't take a genius to spot a goat in a flock of sheep.

The quickest way to double your money is to fold it over and put it back in your pocket.

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.

Never miss a good chance to shut up.

Always drink upstream from the herd.

When you're throwin' your weight around, be ready to have it thrown around by somebody else.

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

Thought this fit the thread - *G*

Steve

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 11:46 PM

Ya know, just thinking out loud, we should all really strive to meet each other this year in what I like to call 'Cattermeets'.

Cattermeets can just be concerts, house gigs, bars, whatever.....

Only cause all of us would have a better understanding of the others that post here.

So i don't know what it would take, perhaps a permathread(if there already isn't one) on planned meets for catters.

Don't know if it was previously tried, but I'm willing to meet anyone once.......... Except ClintonHammond! :) Once was WAY too many!

Steve

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Clifton53
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 11:50 PM

Spot on Amergin! 53's postings are sometimes hard to understand, and the motives may seem dubious to hardened web vets, but the man loves to play guitar and openly discuss it, and that should be enough for us! Can't count how many times I've heard the phrase;" if you don't like it, don't read it". Well???

Clifton

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 12:05 AM

I'd be honored to meet Clinton Hammond...

And remember that this type of thread comes up EVERY couple of months - usually either a newer person pointing out the short-comings, or a long-timer pointing out how the MuDcat has changed. Eventually someone mentions that these threads have been cropping up on a regular basis as long as they've been a member (I've been one for 3 1/2 years) and that it's likely that nothing has really changed much.

Chock it up to humans discussing everything on every subject possible (When was the last time anyone who has been here over a year saw a completely new thread subject - and new flashes don't count. Talking about something new happening in N. Ireland or the Middle East is still discussing things that have many earlier threads).

ON THE OTHER HAND >>>>

I live in Downtown Orlando, Florida. I hang out at a nice English pub half a block from my home. ANYONE at Mudcat who is visiting the World's #1 tourist destination, feel free to private message me and arrainge a meet. I'll buy the first pint. And if you're really nice, I may let you take one of the tours I lead (Historical and Ghost Walking Tours of Historic Downtown Orlando). By the way, it's 85 deg(F) today. pax yall

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:05 AM

Kendall,

When you tell those tales here, I can hear your grand delivery as if you were standing in front of us doin' it. You, sir, are the best !!!

And I guess I do sound bitter here on occasion. It's probably because life has a way of hitting us up side the head pretty hard sometimes---and as a result, we expostulate with more negative emphasis than is warranted or that we ever intended. It happens because we are, possibly, hurting.No excuse but, as others have said, that's life.

All the best to you all,

Art

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:06 AM

Blackcatter....Thanks for the summation. That's exactly how these go everytime and if someone hadn't PM'ed me, I wouldn't have opened this or the Farewell thing either. I quit posting to thisstuff last year for the most part and when I see one of these titles, I skip it.

As far as being "outted".........If it was any secret to BOB that I found a lot of his threads ridiculous it would surprise me. Take a look at the others on a lot of his threads (not the unnamed Guests) and you'll see I wasn't alone. Yes, he has started some good threads and yes, he has made good comments too, but I made no secret of the ones I felt were screwy. I didn't post to a lot of them and I think I even asked BOB if he ever had any unexpressed thoughts. In the main, I have answered his questions when I had some knowledge and tried to use some humor to diffuse some of the hostility he encountered or to express my ideas toward his posting. I had no idea what today's D chord thread was about so I gave it a pass.

What I'd also mention is that I treated Hawk no differently on all those sillyass Shatner threads......but Hawk is Hawk and BOB is BOB. How they take it is up to them.

Where does all this "bitterness" crap come from anyway? Read Kendall's post......Perfect. Perfect. Defines most situations exactly. Talk about inane threads? Well, there's this one.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:08 AM

Well then Blackcatter, I'll tell Clinton we should become Snowbirds, and head down to Florida before Windsor gets its 'One Big Snowfall'. :)

Geez, I only wish. Maybe down the road. And it was a balmy 40 degrees here today. And of course all are welcome to come to Windsor and meet me, Clinton, ddw and whoever else lives in this area.

If Clinton reads this, who was the catter who came to Ann Arbor on a work contract with the big 3? I just remember he was from England and had this wonderful steel guitar.

Steve

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: ddw
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:13 AM

Devilment,

That was Grab. He's headed back, but it looks like he may be too busy to get over this time.

david

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:16 AM

Ta dave, Thanks mate.

Steve

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Deckman
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:28 AM

I rarely read ANY thread posted by a guest, but I guess I'm bored tonight. A couple of comments: Mark, I couldn't agree with you more. I feel there is a lot of agnst in the country since 9/11. I was just talking with Bride Judy about this tonight. And I also feel that it's starting to diminish. And for Kendall, there's a wonderful song that Tom Paxton wrote years ago. Here's chorus

This world goes round and round,what goes up must come down
Just like the spinning wheel, it all comes back to you
You find whatever you feel, you lose whatever you steal
Just like the spinning wheel, it all comes back to you
CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Cappuccino
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 02:44 AM

Kendall, that post was brilliant. I'm printing it out as a reminder.

- Ian B

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: mooman
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 05:23 AM

Dear JJ,

Stick around...you can easily spot and just simply ignore the noxious stuff and there is a lot of wonderful advice and knowledge on this forum.

All the best

mooman

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 06:00 AM

Well my favourite tipple is BITTER (the english draught beer). There are lots of "smooth" beers around at the moment, but I tend to prefer something with a bit of body and flavour rather than something bland and easy to swallow. I liked Kendall's posting - basically a person tends to apply their own outlook to what others say. Christ, if we all agreed on everything, there'd be nothing to remind us that we're still alive!

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,Jaze
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 06:43 AM

Aloha, Mark. I agree with you. As usual , your ideas were thoughtful and wisely stated.Mudcat does seem to have changed over the past year. Some people seem to have disappeared, but I imagine it's probably been that way from the beginning. Always changing with the melting pot that it is. It keeps it interesting. When negativity(not good-natured fun)starts, I just move on. The problem usually is people who feel compelled to take issue with everything and keeps those threads going and going. There's much to learn here and a lot of wisdom in the non-music threads, but you have to learn when to leave it and move on.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Tone d' F
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 06:50 AM

Life is what you make it, if you want to go around looking at the bleak side of things that's what you will find.

I find the 'cat freindly and informative they even sometimes talk to little me, what more do you want

----------------------------------------------------------- An optimist is a pessimist without experience

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 07:45 AM

I reckon BOB is a good guy and people should be nice to him.john

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 07:59 AM

But then I'm sure people have said that about Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Ben Laden .......

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:00 AM

I'll rephrase that, as I've a bit more to add. I agree with Mark, Jon and Murray, from what I understand BOB is new to the internet and is using his wifes computer, he is off work at the minute on sick, he posts a lot but so do a lot of other people, I am certain he is not trying to annoy people, I have noticed that some of the insults directed towards him have been from regular mudcat members .On the "what do you like about Mudcat" thread Bob says "I like the friends I have made here, and the community".Lets give BOB a chance it would be a real shame if after finding this site, he was driven away becuase a few people made him feel not welcome.I sort of know how he might feel because when I first came here a few people took the piss out of my spelling, and I was going to leave but then I thought " ok, my spelling is not very good, so what!" If BOB does leave I wish him well with his diet and his depression and any other problems he is having.john

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:05 AM

Dave Bryant-I have just seen your message and that is exactly the kind of crap I am talking about.I don't know why you are trying to make trouble, if you have got nothing nice or useful to say you should keep quiet.john

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:32 AM

Thanks to all of you who got something out of my post. There are many ways of saying the same thing, "What goes around, comes around" etc. There is a piece of eastern philosophy that sticks in my head, "Your opinion of me is none of my business." No one can MAKE you feel sad, glad, mad or whatever. YOU make that decision. If someone disrespects you, it says more about them than about you, but, how you feel about it is strictly up to you. You can either laugh in his/her face, weep bitterly or clock the bastard. As Shakespere said "Nothing is good or bad, thinking makes them so." I like to think that we all know how to be decent caring people, but, sometimes our own "stuff" gets in the way and we react with our reptilian brain. I lit into my doctor the other day when he complained that he and his staff had worked on my problem all day! I told him I had worked on it for almost a year! His time is valuable to him, my voice is valuable to me. Simple.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:50 AM

JJ,have you seen any of the other Internet discussion forums, or, especially, the Usenet groups? This place is a veritable Sunday School compared to many, if not most of them (maybe not a Baptist Sunday School, but..)--

As for you, Kendall, I never saw anyone get so much mileage out of an old joke in my life!

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Dani
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:50 AM

Yeah, Kendall, only, there's one problem. Since when do they got PIAZZAS in MAINE!!

We got PO-ACHES in NC, not that I'm bitter...

Dani

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 09:51 AM

John_from_Hull,
You have also just illustrated what I was saying in my posting before last. Why do people have to be so serious all the while and read malice into every posting ?

I agree that 53BOB seems to have a lot of problems, but if you look though his postings, many of them are much more caustic than mine was.

The beginning of this thread didn't specifically refer to BOB - his "Retirement" is the subject of another thread, but this one now seems to have been hijacked. My last posting was meant to be light-hearted (rather like "as the bishop said to the actress") - your reaction was much more "bitter". Perhaps it would help BOB if people sent him private messages, rather than just discuss him openly - I'd be surprised if he's not having a peek at the site - it would only be human nature after all.

Anyway, if anyone was offended (BOB ?) - I render abject apologies. Perhaps we should have a thread designation for "This thread contains sarcasm, bad humour etc. and is not suitable for people of a touchy or over-serious disposition" !

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 10:01 AM

Incidently, If you think that posting was out-of-order, have a look at some of the things I've said about Breezy and McGrath !

(That keep the two of them busy for a while - searching for all my remarks about them)

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 10:01 AM

On the Civil War list, we call it Cranky Season... the time of year between about November and about February or March, when there aren't too many events to go to. People get bored and antsy and start jumping down each other's throats for the silliest things.

Also known as Cabin Fever, I reckon.

Sure, sometimes people aren't so nice to each other. But that's what happens when you get several hundred people from all over the world together.

It ain't nothin but a thang.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 11:04 AM

Very true I think, Kim

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 11:33 AM

Kendall: I love it, I love it, I love it! Along the same lines, someone once said (maybe it was even me)"You get the life you perceive." Maybe it was our friend Gordon Bok. Whoever said it, I just said it. I like your telling better, though.
Jerry

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Grab
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 11:39 AM

Hey Devilmaster.

Yeah, I'm over again, but probably only for a week - flying in Sunday and out Friday. I may get over to Windsor but I doubt it - it's a bit far for a midweek evening, when I've got to be in work at Ford for 8am! Might check out some blues/folk clubs in downtown Detroit, but I probably won't cross the river.

Of course, that's depending on the work. If it turns out that there's more work needed, then I'll be there longer and I can meet up with you guys on Friday/Saturday. Unfortunately the steel guitar is waiting for me to perform surgery on it, so I'll only have my normal acoustic with me.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 11:57 AM

Or, the glass is either half empty or half full. Whatever you make of it.

DougR

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 11:58 AM

Kendall, Hardi and I both loved that-- it may get into a sermon in fact. Hardi often recommends (as an experiment) that people spend a week smiling at everyone no matter what, and then a week scowling at everyone-- and see what they get back in return.

And then there is my Mudcat name-- What You (choose to) (can) (prefer to) See Is What You "Get."

~S~

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 11:58 AM

The old Double Whammy. When a person insults someone, not only are they hurt, but it's their fault, because they were hurt. Go figure.
Jerry

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 12:19 PM

Ted, I dont see that as a joke. To me it is a piece of homely wisdom which I picked up back in the stone age. Even if it were a joke, does that make it less valuable? Dani, where I come from, we have piazzas and verandas as well as porches. However, when Pizza was invented, we had to start calling piazzas porches because it got too confusing.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 12:38 PM

kendall, I too enjoyed your piece of homespun wisdom.

In my capacity as insufferable nit-picker, however, I feel compelled to suggest that you change the build-up to the old-timer being next door to a house with a "For Sale" sign, and delivering his pithy observations to prospective buyers.

A much more realistic scenario, if you think about it, than actual neighbors coming up to him and making enquiries.

Murray

Subject: Flaming
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 02:19 PM

I've received a couple of personal messages this week, asking how can I allow such-and-such a nasty thread to be posted. Well, we do have a solid rule that we do not allow personal attack threads and messages. Pene Azul and I do our best to delete such messages when we see them - but we don't have the time or patience to review every message. We'd rather spend our time doing other things, and rightly so. If you see something you think should be looked at, send a personal message to BOTH Pene and me, and we'll see what we can do. Please do not post public messages to request this sort of review - it just serves to encourage flamers by calling attention to them.

We try our best to keep the discussion free and uncensored, but I don't think that requires us to accept all forms of viciousness. It's a difficult balance to maintain, and Jeff (Pene) and I talk back and forth about it all the time. In the process, we've become good friends, which is quite delightful.

Remember, though, that we do not intend to censor this place into some sort of wholesome Disneyland. If you post messages here, you do take a risk. I suggest that you minimize that risk by not posting information about yourself that is too personal. We do our best to keep things pleasant around here, but we can't guarantee anybody complete protection against nastiness.

If you watch what happens around here, you'll see that certain types of people are the ones who get flamed (attacked, usually by anonymous guests). Oftentimes, the people who get flamed do certain obnoxious things that attract flame attacks. If you get flamed frequently, then maybe you should look at yourself and see if there's something you do that attracts such attacks. I'm not saying that flaming is ever justified, but I do think it's true that certain conduct is annoying to everybody and especially attractive to flamers.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: SDShad
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 02:28 PM

Kendall, you were around when pizza was invented? I mean, I knew you were older than me, but.... :-)

Shad

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 02:52 PM

Hell, I was around when PORCHES were invented! When I went to school, I didn't have to study history, there wasn't any.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Willa
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 03:10 PM

Well said, John, and I think the concern shown when people noticed you were 'missing' for a while shows that, as Ebbie says, mudcat is like a large argumentative family until one of its members needs some tlc.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 03:44 PM

Thanks Willa, I was really suprised a couple of weeks ago to get a phone call of Les checking that I was ok, because I hadn't posted anything for a while.There is definetley some good friendly people here.john

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 07:33 PM

Half full or half empty, it still holds enough good stuff. Good bitter sometimes.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:49 PM

It is a reflecting pool. We see ourselves. Members such as KL, S, and WW find painful experiences and seek healing. Guests, like myself, find a playground of frivolous antics where scholarship once reigned. In your case, Stephen Crane expressed it well.

In the desert
I saw a creature, naked, bestial,
who, squatting upon the ground,
Held his heart in his hands,
And ate of it.
I said, "Is it good, friend?"
"It is bitter -- bitter," he answered;
"But I like it
Because it is bitter,
And because it is my heart."

Play Hard, Have Fun, Be Safe!!!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:53 PM

And Mr. Crane again,

Once there was a man --
Oh, so wise!
In all drink
He detected the bitter,
And in all touch
He found the sting.
At last he cried thus:
"There is nothing --
No life,
No joy,
No pain --
There is nothing save opinion,
And opinion be damned."

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Nerd
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 02:14 AM

I've only been here a short while, but I don't really find the place all that bitter. I come from pretty abrasive towns, (NYC originally, and now Philadelphia) and this seems pretty sweet by comparison.

Here are some ways I avoid getting stressed here.

I don't invest a huge amount of ego in my statements on the 'cat, so if someone flames me, or ignores me, or whatever, I just go my merry way.

If people seem nice I am nice to them, if people are injured I post to get well threads and if people have birthdays or other joys I congratulate them. I never write in just to say "shut up, you eejit" even though it is sometimes tempting. If people seem to be sparring I assume it is good-natured witty banter among friends, and that I just don't know them well enough to get it yet. And if people seem downright mean or unbalanced, I just don't get involved.

On music threads, I answer questions if I think I know a helpful answer. If people are wrong and I know it I correct them--but only if I think they will appreciate it. If they seem to have too much invested in their infallibility or their rightness, life's too short to argue with them. Remember, there are people like that everywhere!

Also, occasionally I try my hand at the song challenges because they're fun, but someone else always writes funnier songs than I do (sigh!)

I suppose there's some bitterness in any worthwhile life experience, but I would never say my overall impression of the 'cat has been negative. You just have to be amused by it all; that's the key. If (for example) bob said some weird things (and he did) at least some of them were helpful, and some were hilarious. I'm glad he cruised in here and livened things up, and I'd welcome him back.

And if there's a sort of central clique or two that define the place to a certain degree, that's kind of inevitable in this sort of community. But it's not an exclusionary, high-school sort of environment. In fact, it's fun to observe longtime members and their interactions, 'cause they're generally smart and funny.

Remember, in the real world I have to deal with people who despise folk music; now that's a bitter pill!

Anyway, this is probably my longest post EVER, just to say the 'cat is really pretty cool. Stick around and enjoy it!

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 02:43 AM

Hey, this boy's pretty smart, you can tell he's from Philadelphia.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 08:09 AM

Okay Mark.......So how do we explain you?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,outcast
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 10:46 AM

it seems to me that jj has a legit complaint. i used to be a member here. i went after too many spoilers on my threads. some were vicious, vitriolic. this used to be a great place, it's changed over time. that is not perception - i know it. those who tell jj that *he's* the problem because he sees what is there are just avoiding the issue. i expect nothing else nowadays. i only visited here to keep in vague touch. this is what i found. ho hum.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 11:25 AM

Mark, are you saying Nerd wasn't smart until he moved to Philadelphia?

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 11:27 AM

Dear Self-chosen Outcast: Welcome to reality. Of course, there are people who let fly with pretty nasty stuff ocassionally. I don't think anyone is denying that. Or saying that it's right. I too get irritated with people who seem to say without thinking, anything that comes to mind if they think it clever and then claim the person that they've offended is too over-sensitive. Not a great depth of self-examination going on there. But, your observation is the same that people make about churches. There are hypocrites there, back-biters, egotistical, obnoxious people. As my sons would say, "No duh!" The only way that you can avoid exposure to people who are offensive is to stay in the house. I thought that Nerd's comments were right on the mark. Take the good that you can find here, and there is MUCH good. Don't let the occasional mean-spirited stuff get you down. Usually, when someone says something out of line, several other Catters jump in to the defense. If you see a thread that looks like it's getting tied in knots (or nots), don't go there. I've just been coming here a couple of months, and I see many good people.. including some that fling insults back and forth at each other, good-naturedly. It's a good place to come. It bears a strong resemblance to reality.
Jerry

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 11:36 AM

There's something for just about everyone on Mudcat. I think that whether you find this place bitter or sweet depends on which threads you devote your time, energy, and emotional involvement to.

But then, I think Kendall said that already.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 11:38 AM

Guest outcast--to see a good example of the conversation being hijacked by the illustrious regulars, have a look see at the "History of Irish Music" thread.

This post will be the 8th post to this thread using the GUEST log-in, and most of the guest log-ins to this thread are from regulars w/o cookies, or regular guests. Out of about 85 posts total. Sorta says it all, doesn't it?

I always doubt that it is authentic newcomer guests who start these threads. More likely it is the regulars using the anonymity of the guest log-in, who need their fix. That Mudcat regular fix being another opportunity to talk about themselves, amongst themselves, rather than about music or anything else meaningful.

It is like an adolescent boys circle jerk or pissing contest sorta thing.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 11:52 AM

Whether you find this place bitter or sweet depends on whether your life is bitter or sweet.

I pity the people/person for whom life is so bitter that they want to sour this place too.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 12:57 PM

Nerd: Bravo!

DougR

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 01:15 PM

Guest, Guest, Guest, Guest or Guest, (it's SO hard to tell you apart; sorry), I think you are saying that Mudcat members are going to the trouble of logging off and coming back in as guests in order to be truthful. Takes lots of courage to do that, right?

Why are you so afraid?

I do come from a large, argumentative family- one that never was honest in controversial matters. Only in recent years have we worked at saying what we actually think. And guess what? The unit hasn't fallen apart.

Ebbie Elva

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 01:26 PM

There are some that say that people aren't smart til they move out of Philadephia---

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 01:33 PM

Ebbie Elva, methinks thou dost presume much too much about the meaning of the word anonymous. Here is a dictionary definition (from my Funk & Wagnall's Standard Desk Dictionary):

a.non.y.mous adj. 1. Having or bearing no name. 2. Of unknown authorship or agency. [< Gk. < an-without + onoma name]

See? Nothing about courage or cowardice a'tall. When the word "cowardice" is used by some as a synonym for the word "anonymous" that problem is one of cultural assumptions. Here on Mudcat, those presumptious assumptions have become so insidious, that Mudcat regulars regularly use the "anonymous is snynomous with cowardice" cultural assumption to attack people they feel to be at a complete loss to score points against in an argument. I'm argumentative too. Thing is, I learned a thing or two from arguing all these years. Apparently, you haven't if the best thing you can come up with to get my goat is a sophmoric machismo challenge about cowardice.

I post anonymously--in the sense given by the above dictionary definition--because I like posting this way. I have nothing to hide. I have no hidden agenda. I have no desire to enjoy the benefits of membership, as my on-line life is quite complete without it. I just enjoy posting here as a person without a name. Why that is so hard for some of you to comprehend is beyond me, but that makes it your problem, not mine.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:07 PM

Perhaps, Ebbie, lack of conviction might be a more appropriate description. If someone truly believes whatever they post, and has any interest at all in influencing opinion, I think there would be no hesitancy at all to use a name. I doubt anyone here attaches much credence to posts written by "anonymous" for that reason.

Personally, I equate anonymous posters with "window-peepers."

DougR

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:20 PM

More like a flasher I'd say. Or maybe a mooner.

"Window peeper" - do you say that instead of "Peeping Tom" in the States?

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:50 PM

Same think, McGrath. Flasher or Mooner would do just as well though.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:52 PM

Some of our anonymous guests put me more in mind of a "stalker"

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:57 PM

True, MMario, true.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 04:36 AM

"Life is like a shit sandwich. The more bread you have, the less shit you have to eat" What that says to me is life is never going to be as you want it to be. You know the old saying, into each life a little rain must fall. For god guys read bread, and for most guests the other ingredient of the sandwich.
I always wanted to drive a porch, but not a piazza.
Engage brain before operating mouth/keyboard
Failte.....Giok

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 05:40 AM

I know Window Peeper and Peeping Tom mean the same, Doug - I was just curious to know if Americans tend to use that expression, because we don't over here. That's the kind of thing you learn on the Mudcat and nowhere else.

Flasher, mooner - maybe streaker. They all have different meanings I suppose.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 07:07 AM

Flasher shows front.
Mooner shows back.
Streaker show all.

Streaking was more of a fad, a way to inject some disruption in an event and generally for no particular reason. Flashing, whether male or female, has a sexual connotation to it as the flasher is usually getting his or her jollies somehow. More often associated with men exposing themselves to unsuspecting women, it can go either way.

Mooning though is most often done as a sign of disrespect, although it can be a humorful disrespect just as telling someone to kiss your ass may either be a friendly joke or fightin' words. Mooning is a bit of the art form as well and has a lexicon of phrases associated with it's performance, such as "Pressed Ham" where the mooner sticks his/her ass against a glass window, generally in a car.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 09:01 AM

Expert.

~S~

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,Former member
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 09:15 AM

Guest JJ,

By now you've probably sussed out why this is such a bitter place. It is the guest thing. Way back in the mists of Mudcat time, Max created a two tiered hierarchy for posters, in order to "protect" the assumed name indentities of some regular posters here.

Needless to say, it is obvious that members are way on top on the top hierarchical rung, and guests, anon or otherwise, are just below pond scum, regardless of their good intentions when they come in here.

One Really Big Lie posted in this thread I would take exception to is the idea that 9/11 is making the rude, bitter Mudcat members do it. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Mudcat Royals ran out one of the most knowledgeable people about British folk music in the spring of 2001, and the summer of 2001 was some of the worst flame wars I've seen in a decade on Usenet.

So, you seemed to have gotten it right in your initial post here. The all too predictable rude and nasty response to your post was swift and immediate, as it most always is.

My solution is to never limit myself to reading this forum about folk music. It is much too cliqueish, and there are much more knowledgeable people about folk music in the Usenet forums. When the flaming gets bad, I just check out, and come back later.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 10:52 AM

Actually, I like Neil Young. We sing everything in exactly the same key.

If you see this place as bitter, my request is that you change lenses. You may need one that lets in more light.

And welcome. It may be humble, but it's home.

WW

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 11:46 AM

I AM NOT BITTER DAMNIT !!!!

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 01:04 PM

Spaw: I, for one, am most grateful for that heartfelt and and most eloquent explanation of those words. I think I will print it off and place it on my bulletin board so that if the subject ever comes up again, I'll have a handy response. I shall of course always credit you as the author.

McGrath: I don't know which term is most prevelent in use in America. It so rarely comes up in conversation. *G* DougR

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Alice
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 01:19 PM

kendall, the first time I heard that bit about the guy on the porch and new people coming to town, it was back in about 1980, after my parents had been killed and I married a guy I didn't know very well. Yikes. He was an alcoholic and a drug addict. I had no clue about addiction. I didn't know what I was getting into, but shortly got out of it, although not unscathed. I had never met anyone who had such a negative reaction to everything in life, and someone told me that story to explain how I saw things positively and he would look at the same thing and see it negatively... not only that, he had moved from a nearby town that he reviled to the town where I live, so the story literally fit the situation.

Mudcat reflects the way people interact in general. For an internet site, I have found it to be much more polite than most internet forums.

Alice

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 01:55 PM

I suspect that some former members may be feeling a little paranoid.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 02:13 PM

Hey, Former Member:

Whine, whine, whine. Do you seriously believe that there is a two-tiered system around here? Do you think anyone cares about that? If theree was a two-tiered system, wouldn't it be a bit more difficult to become a member?

People who are guests are more likely to be trolling. That's a simple fact.

Those remarks from guests that are NOT insulting, degrading, stupid, or insensitive are treated like any comments made be those who've decided to register a name here. If you make a comment that helps someone or is funny, nobody cares if you're a guest or Max himself.

The real difference is that comments made by "members" that are insulting, degrading, stupid, or insensitive are usually accepted as unusual behavior and chocked up to a bad day. Generally that's all it is, because the regulars have posted here hundreds of times have a track record of being ok people.

Email/discussions are a less than perfect way to communicate, especially on sensitive issues. So it is easy to be misunderstoon and to misunderstand other peoples comments.

My sugggestion is that if you are easily offended, stay away from ANY discussion groups that allow people to go off-topic - that way, you're likely to be able to deal with it better.

pax yall

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 02:43 PM

A "flamewar" and other related "wrongs" were referenced and described above by an anonymous guest. A number of people with a different "take" on all of those events decided, at the time and since, not to post about it, but to move on. So I hope people will keep in mind that a one-sided story is just that-- one-sided, and a story. It does nothing to change what people are responsible for around here-- themselves, named or not.

Life is like that.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,Paybacks are a B****
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 02:43 PM

Hey Guest, Former member and other Guests who flame and troll.

I just thought I'd try what you guys so often do. I am a regular member, happy to be one, but since posting anon is soooooo cool, I'd thought I would try it too.

Ya know, you guests who just bitch should get a life. Your little pissant speeches, with all your whining, and moaning about how unfair mudcat is and yada, yada, yada, don't mean Jack to the people who enjoy it here. You won't convince people to leave, nor will your smartass comments change the system to the way YOU want it.

You guys just exploit a nicety that Max offers, which is offering posts without membership. I suppose you need to find someone to blame for your pathetic life, and since finding proper fault would force you to look in the mirror, (and realize you haven't washed in months) you go on the internet and blame everyone else for your useless, pathetic, no friends life.

This theory of the 'inner clique' is SOOOOOOO f****** stupid. Cause if it were true, wouldn't the 'inner clique' stop guest postings?!?!?!?!?!? Makes sense to me. But then I have intelligence...... and a life.

So what are you left with. A sad little existence, and mudcat offers a chance for human interaction, something you sad little people are noticeably lacking. So get off the chair, get out of your mom's basement, open a door, and get your extremely pale (yet glowing from monitor radiation) some sun.

I'll leave you with a line from Donald Sutherland in 'Kelly's Heroes'......... "Negative Waves Moriarity! Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?!? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?"

some people's children

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 03:26 PM

Some of you may remember "Spy vs Spy", it's getting a bit like that here. Only it's turned into "Guest vs Guest"Possibly I'm speaking out of turn here, being a relative newbie, but it begins to look like the flamers & trollers are getting to us, and that means that they've achieeved their objective of winding us up.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 03:29 PM

Sorry, don't know what happened there, apologies all round The last line should read.
IGNORE THE SAD SOBs.
Giok

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 03:41 PM

How can I find out if I'm in the inner clique?

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 03:53 PM

perhaps we should have a blue clicky to a 'inner clique' list.......

Does it require a resume to join?

steve

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: marty D
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 04:03 PM

Hi Guest jj. Granted there's more stupidity here than when I first stumbled upon Mudcat almost three years ago, but it really is contained in such a small percentage of threads. The fact that almost any controversial point of view now has to be stated anonymously merely reflects on how close the community has become. People don't want to 'rock the boat', but they still want others to know that dissenting views are out there. Easy to do on the net, much harder and more time consuming in real life.

Yeah, occasionally I've seen a lack of tolerance that probably has hurt a few people, but in almost every case if you look a little deeper you can see quite a bit of provocation coming from the flamees. It's simply easier to react at someone blowing up rather than looking to see if they had some justification. That takes a lot more time. Besides, a lot of flaming sure seems alcohol fueled to me, and from personal experience I know how the tongue gets loosened.

But the place isn't bitter, it's still a lot more cheerful and helpful than anywhere else on the net.

marty

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 04:12 PM

This is a trolling technique that's used fairly often. I'm not sure whether it's always intentional, but the pattern is well established and reliable.

Start a thread complaining about having been mistreated. It doesn't matter if you have been or not, if you provoke people enough with accusations, you will get a negative reaction. Make sure you don't provide specific examples of this "mistreatment." Generalizations are a lot more effective in provoking the general negative response you're looking for, and people might actually be able to explain specifics.

If you start off posting negative opinions anonymously, you'll be seen as wishing to be a member of the group primarily known for flaming.

There may have been a time when GUESTs weren't viewed with such suspicion. A handfull (or perhaps just a couple) of compulsive and very needy Mudcat addicts have changed that. It's the way things are here.

I have no problem with anonymous posts asking for or providing information. Opinions free from personalities are worthless graffiti. People who hide their identity in order to belittle others ARE gutless cowards(*). I'd like to associate them with their opinions if I ever met them in person. Flamers may not be anywhere near as anonymous as they think they are, but I doubt I'll be running into them.

(*) I fully realize that some, maybe most, gutless cowards are not capable of being otherwise. They aren't capable of seeing their abuse of others as somehow wrong. They may say they don't care, but they keep coming back here. Why? Probably because they can't help it.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,the rules committee
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 04:18 PM

Anyone who starts a thread about him/herself and gets a total of three or more posts from any of the following Mudcatters is to be considered a member of the Inner Clique. Posts about one's self do not count (e.g. Kendall posting in a Kendall thread).

1) Catspaw49 2) WYSIWYG 3) Max 4) Joe Offer 5) Pene Azul 6) kat/katlaughing 7) Big Mick 8) Rick Fielding 9) Kendall 10) Pene Azul 11) Bert 12) Marymac

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 04:21 PM

The fact that almost any controversial point of view now has to be stated anonymously

Oh yeah, that's a good one.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 04:22 PM

Guest, former member. I assume by the 2 tier system, you mean the introduction of the Guest tag. I believe this move was a very good move as it preveted the impersonation of members - an issue that would not even have cropped up if the open (as opposed to membership) posting had not been abused.

Guest, Payback... Max recently said "I keep hearing the members-only recommendation, but am not comfortable with that." ...

It has also been interesting to note that Max has acknowledged "The fact that long-time core members, who seem to have the most to offer us, are visiting less often" and that it bothers him. It is perhaps even more interesting to me that Max is planning on a filtering system to address some problems (not the approach I had tried to argue for but something that should have a similar effect).

It really does seem to me that Max is actually recognising problems and even though I doubted him (and worse) is probably trying to do things to try to help while the 1%Ers would just have it "all is OK anyone who says otherwise is bitter, drunk, mad or whatever" - the last thing they are capable of doing is anyalysing problems, facing up to the fact that they at times can contribute towards problems or looking to help come up with solutions (although they can give a rapturous "great Max" when a change is made)...

Jon (who is off to the pub now, hopefully to play some music)

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 04:24 PM

COOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm in!!!! I'm in!!!!!!!!

Check my 'Auto Racing' thread! I started it about my love of auto racing, and have responses from Kendall, Spaw, and Joe Offer!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've been enabled!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So....ummm..... is there more to it than this??? do I get a button? T-shirt? Free movies at the porno store???

Steve




PS, Joe fax me the papers and i'll sign. When's the big swearing in ceremony????

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 04:48 PM

Devilmaster & Kendall:- What you obviously both need is a blue cliquey.*BG*
Nils illegitimi carborundum....Giok

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 06:00 PM

I know this saying is from central Europe but that's all I know about it. "An insult is like a cup of poison; anyone can hand it to you but only you can drink it" If anybody can identify it I would appreciate it.

And that's all I have to say about this thread.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 06:29 PM

Kendell: I checked the clique list. Sorry, you're not on it.

DougR

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 07:29 PM

Frankly, I'm glad I'm not part of the inner circle - that way (as far as I know) people only attack what I've said, not my general existance ;)

One thing that people haven't mentioned yet is that it is just possible that some of us LIKE to respond to flamers/trolls every once in a while (or all the time for some members).

The F/Ts aren't really getting our ire up - their just throwing the first punch on a fight. I am rarely upset when I respond to a post I think is stupid or insensitive. I do it because I want to, though I try to avoid doing it very often. I'd rather spend my time reading the cool threads and occasionally posting there.

F/Ts can't really hurt the Mudcat - like Guest-payback said above, stupid comments isn't going to make me visit here any less. I know the secret - I only go into the threads like this one when I feel like it. - Other times I just staaaaaay away!

pax yall

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 08:49 PM

Well shit. Now I'm depressed!

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 09:51 PM

Anyone who starts a thread about him/herself and gets a total of three or more posts from any of the following Mudcatters is to be considered a member of the Inner Clique- Since this is from the Rules Committee, it must be true...

So: I am so sad and lonely and all alone. I don't have music more than about three times a week. Old age is staring me in the face- I don't dare turn my back, or it might jump me. All I have is this little window to the world: Mudcat. And if I'm not in its Inner Clique, I will have lost that too.

So, may I please have my three posts from the above mentioned Mudcatters?

LOL

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 10:00 PM

Ebbie and jaze......As a charter member of the Inner Clank, I am free and willing to grant you both immediate and complete membership with all the honors and privileges that come with it. Congratulations!!!

Now I can't help but notice that the "Rules Committee" puts down some interesting guidelines and under those guidelines, virtually all Guests are members of the Inner Clank too!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 10:14 PM

Gosh, I've never been a member of an inner clique. When I got into folk and blues I was considered weird and an outcast in my little town in the Mississippi Valley. And when I moved to California and got involved with bluegrass and blues I was weird.

My seven year old daughter who listens to radio and loves the (she thinks) "Pixie Dicks", tells me I'm weird and my Son House, Tony Rice, and B.B. King records are weird.

So I really NEED to be a member of the INNER CLIQUE. Uh, if you're into 'marginalized' music they won't play on the radio can you have an inner clique? Maybe those on the approved list can reassure me.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 10:31 PM

Blanket assurances, approvals, and permissions hereby made in good faith.

~S~

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 10:31 PM

Alice, take some advice from an old soul. Next time you meet a guy who looks interesting to you, before you get involved, check the following.
1. Watch how he treats his mother. (He will treat you the same in time.
2. Ditto waitresses.
3. And most important, wtch how he feels about cats. I dont mean simply not liking them, I mean if he hates cats, he is quite apt to be a controller. Control freaks hate cats because they cant dominate them. Many men dont like cats, but, watch out for the one who will harm them. He will control you too.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 10:35 PM

And, ladies, dont ever think you are going to change a man. That's probably the biggest mistake you can make. And, men, dont get the idea that your new lady is always going to be trim and firm. Time and gravity are going to make you wish you were near sighted!

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 11:58 PM

Thank you Kendall, for those insightful suggestions. They ain't gonna get you into the inner-clique though. *G* DougR

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 12:16 AM

Ummm... I think that Kendall is in the Inner Clank, I mean, Clique. I saw the surveilance photos from the NSA and I could swear he was in them.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 12:36 AM

CLANK I am so happy.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Nerd
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 02:39 AM

Wow, I go away for the weekend and look what happens to this thread! First of all, did you ever consider that I might have moved to Philadelphia BECAUSE I was smart?

Or is that too farfetched? Yeah, I thought so :-)

Anyway, for the record, valued GUESTS

Maybe a month or so ago I went from being a guest to being a member and I have found no difference in the way I am treated. However, even when I was a guest I always attached some name to myself--I didn't settle on Nerd until a few weeks in. As to there being an "inner clique," don't you sort of expect that in any group there will be clusters of friends? The only thing that makes one clique "central" and another clique "peripheral" is PERCEPTION. When I was in high school (which is the last time I had to think about this crap) I was in a kind of nerdy clique rather than a popular clique. Eventually I decided that we WERE the "inner clique" as far as I was concerned.

Maybe people who worry about who the "inner clique" is are just insecure because they have no friends of their own to hang out with. In that case, go make friends. But it seems painfully counterproductive to complain about not having friends when you won't identify yourselves. To become part of any community you have to let others see and hear and, yes, judge you. If you hide behind the mask of complete anonymity you can never make a friend or be a friend; at best you can be a non-hostile stranger.

So my advice (jeez, when did I get so damn full of advice?) choose a name, enter the forum, be polite. Try to learn from threads, and contribute when you think others can learn from you. Be funny and friendly if you can.

Maybe you'll make it into the "inner clique" yourself. If not, you'll probably find you're having too much fun to care!

And JJ, all evidence to the contrary, this isn't a bitter place! Honest!

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 04:26 AM

I've posted for advice during vunerable times, seeing this place as being full of experienced human people who have to be fairly grounded or cool because they like folk music!
I was surprised at some of the ill-intentioned bitter posts. There were more insightful empathic ones, but the hurtful ones...I just remember them more. Also surprised that some experienced folks don't always follow a safe convention to avoid confilct: Just speak honestly of personal experience -- use "I" instead of "you". But there was a time when I didn't know the advantages of this, and still remind myself.
I don't want the answer to be "just read and post music threads". That may be the answer...probably doesn't have to be...guess it depends on where I am that day.
Something ordinary but interesting happened to me the other day. I went to see a public event at the city auditorium and my friend noted that "people are basically good". The whole event was full of basically good, friendly people -- it had to be, because it acutally happened smoothly and enjoyably. Anyway, it was a good reminder for me that the real world is just as valid as the printed electronic forum world. It's just the limitedness but the permanence of the written word has a great impact for me.
Yeah, I may shrug it all off soon. Like being a little vulnerable though.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 06:01 AM

Hey guys! why don't y'all start a fraternity/sorority? You could call yourselves Mu Gamma, and have a Fraternity ring an' all. That there clique is a Frenchy word, and it aint got the same classical ring as them thar Greek letters. I mean you wouldn't want French letters on your ring now would ya?
Please don't reply to this post, unless it's to denigrate it. I got a paranoia to feed y' know.;-[)> {Smile with beard and moustache}
Happy Sunday.....Giok

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,Former member
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 07:59 AM

WYSIWYG said:

"A "flamewar" and other related "wrongs" were referenced and described above by an anonymous guest. A number of people with a different "take" on all of those events decided, at the time and since, not to post about it, but to move on. So I hope people will keep in mind that a one-sided story is just that-- one-sided, and a story."

Ah, so there is the Official Mudcat Version of events. Which the people involved in the Bruce Olson witch hunt don't wish to discuss then, WYSIWYG?

Yeah, this place is kinda like adolescent boys...in Lord of the Flies.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 09:02 AM

What we need now is a pig's head on a stick. Perhaps Spaw can spare one from his sausage making exploits. Or maybe you know someone who has one that they're not using.
Giok

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 09:07 AM

I know a lot of people with heads that they dont use.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 09:29 AM

...sorry folks, but catspaw is wrong again! You can't be in the inner clique unless you have sent the treasurer (that's me) your annual $50 dues. February 29th is the cutoff date so hurry up with he money!!!

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Alice
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 10:26 AM

Hi, Kendall, great advice, but unfortunately, that guy had everyone around him that I met, including his parents, talking him up to me like he was great, and I fell for it. I was naive for my age and as a poet, he had a little fan club around him. He liked cats. I didn't know at the time that:

- It takes at least a year of observing someone's character and behavior to know them well enough to marry. (If it works out in less time, you're just lucky.)
- Some people are very good con artists.
- When you are grieving, you are not in a state to be making major life decisions.

We can all look back and say, "I wish I had known then what I know now". But then again, we learned what we know now from experience.

End of thread creep, back to the topic. I rarely read threads that have flame/troll discussions, so I've missed out on most of the anonymous Guest controversy. I do remember a time when Mudcat didn't seem to have any flaming going on, but Mudcat was young and naive then (1997-98). The only complaints I remember then were regarding threads about rock or pop music instead of folk or blues.

Alice

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Hawker
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 10:30 AM

If you ask a question, you get an answer, but just like in life, you get ther person whos answering's opinion too, some people here, like in life are sensitive to things they hold dear, and that is differennt in each person, when you have been here a while, you get to know people's sensitivities and I have seen people try to wind certain people up, knowing their question wil illicit a response. I try to steer clear of too much confrontation, others enjoy a good heated discussion, and, like in life, some go in with a knife and can be quite scathing..... Human Nature I think, be yourself, be happy, and forgiving is my attitude to the responses I get, there is always a reason for a persons behaviour and we shouldn't judge them too harshly (well, most of them!!!) Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,From Venus
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 10:36 AM

Hi Alice,

Your recollections of the young (but hardly what I would call naive) Mudcat are much the same as mine, it seems.

One of the ways one keeps discussion forums on-topic is by pointing out posts which are off-topic. Self-policing like that has to happen in any public forum to keep it free from becoming what Mudcat has become today, which is much less about music than it was in 97/98.

Now, the folks who post most often here seem to clearly prefer things the way they are now, to the way they were then. Which tells me they come here to be with a community of musicians and music lovers, not to discuss music per se. The music discussions get more and more marginalized with time, it seems to me. And yes, I'd have to agree the History of Irish Music thread is an example of what happens when some folks try and seriously discuss the music. The wise-crackers and malcontents seem to come out of the woodwork and get very aggressive.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 10:37 AM

I was just thinking of Kendall's earlier bit of wisdom and applied it to my music.

If I was asked how I found the music in N Wales (at least over the last 4 yrs), I would have said there's hardly any players left I enjoy playing with - most of the good ones either left or don't go out anymore, the events that I used to enjoy have mostly been taken over by people who have it that nothing matters as long as it's "fun" and that a complainer like me over slipping standards and no attempt to improve musically were just putting everbody down to sound clever...

By Kendall's logic, I should have found the same in Norfolk but instead, I found a session where the standard is so high that some of the stuff is of recording quality, a place where people believe playing the music for the music is the goal and perhaps most notably a place where I, rather than being the so called clever sod feels like a beginner who is still trying to learn his skills. And I'm loving ever minute of it.

Often within communities, changes happen - from any individuals perspective, for better or for worse - and at times people either have to adapt or move on. This is just part of life, something that will never change but sometimes one can find better elsewhere, sometimes there is understanding and people on all sides bend a little, sometimes people can't move for whatever reason...

So where does Mudcat fit into all this? Mudcat is a place that was built on music and largely on the efforts of people that we rarely see these days. What seems to have happened is that a community side developed and a certain group wanted to expand on that, perhaps at times caring more about their perceived community than its original foundations - I guess it could be likened to building a new housing estate in an old village and a division between the new and the old occuring.

I would argue that the community side within Mudcat is a healthy feature, one that opens amazing doors to people as well as perhaps making the site "accessible" to a greater number of people. I would also argue that the old values are important here if this site is to retain any focus.

It seems to me that Max is working on tech ways to make it easier for the 2 sides (and those inbetween) to find (and exclude) what they want here and I applaud him for that. To be honest I feel bad about some things I said - wish I could have PMd him and KNOWN how far he was thinking - I'd never have taken the line I had if I did.

There does however remain one problem IMO that all the tech ability in the world can not solve and that is people. Feelings of things like "cliques" do exist here - perhaps with reason - I'd lay odds that if I ran a poll on the top 10 members, the results would be pretty consistent, feelings of guests (and I know some are only trolling/flaming) being mistreated do exist...

Mudcat is overall a friendly place but that does not mean it couldn't be better and that issues don't exist. They real question to me is "Can the 'core' members recognise this and try to help become part of a bigger and greater Mudcat than before or are they going to continue to argue that everything in the garden is rosey?"

Jon

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Alice
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 11:15 AM

I described early Mudcat as more naive, I think, because I was reminded of myself in my 20's, when I didn't know much about human nature. Since I was an honest and nice person, I though everyone I met was honest and nice, too.

Although people who came to the Mudcat forum in the beginning were not necessarily naive in the "real world", the cyber world of the internet was evolving. The communication was similar to what you expect when people meet face to face. Some of us had been online since early BBS (I recall only meeting school teachers looking for info when I first went online in about 1989). The internet has changed, more people online all the time, and communication styles have developed that are different than what we do in face to face meetings.

The analogy to changing sessions is interesting, Jon. I like the session we have in my town, being friendly and open, but the music is well played and fun at the same time. People come for the music, not to party. There is a more strict session I know of in another town that almost died because the leader had so many taboos and controls on what and how music was to be played. I hope this forum finds a good balance between information and fun, and moves toward a more courteous attitude.

Alice

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 01:16 PM

A GUEST posted this above:

"I've posted for advice during vunerable times, seeing this place as being full of experienced human people who have to be fairly grounded or cool because they like folk music! I was surprised at some of the ill-intentioned bitter posts."

>>I assume the advice you were looking for was for your personal life and not along the lines as what kind of guitar should you buy. If you were looking here for personal advice, you might want to remember that the majority of us here are not therapists, life counsellors or doctors. While you may get good advice for any question you have, you're just as likely to get bad advice and you're almost guarenteed to get flippant, off-the-cuff advice. The Mudcat is NOT a therapy group!

We do not function as an AA group or as your clergy or anything else other than a group of people who tend to be free with opinions (because that's kind of what posting here on a regular basis comes down to - we share information as well, but opinions really do rule the day).

Please don't use the Mudcat as a surrogate for real help - you'll be dissapponted. Go the TRAINED PROFESSIONALS for anything serious about your life. And, if you still choose to use us - don't blame us, for Goddess's sake!

Consider what your paying for the advice - you're lucky if you get what you paid for.

I have mentioned in other threads that I have Asperger's Syndrome. I did not mention it in order to solicit help or advice, just to explain better who I am (that's kind of a trait of many members here - we WANT everyone to get to know us) And oddly enough, just mentioning it got me a private message from someone here who has a spouse with A.S. - that person offered to converse with me if I ever needed it. THAT is part of what make the Mudcat a great place to me.

pax yall

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 02:00 PM

Just curious, Jon, if you'd be willing to point out the 10 regulars whom you characterise as saying things are all rosy, esp. in the most recent past? Not looking to wind you or anyone else up, but I just don't recall seeing a lot of posts of that nature.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 02:11 PM

I'd never describe this place as "bitter." I disagreed with the use of that word to describe the place back in, oh, maybe it was '99, and I disagree today. I'm not bitter, nearly all of the folks I know personally aren't bitter, and I don't see much bitterness in the posts I DO read.

I think some folks seem to have a hair trigger, and some folks post out of anger without considering or possibly caring about the impact of their words on not only the target, but all who read their message. These incidents bother me, but I'm bothered by individual posts by indiviual people.

Others are "literal thinkers." They see what's basically irony, and think the poster is flaming someone. They probably don't ask or try to understand, they just assume. This has been responsible for at least a few flame wars around here. To take this to an extreme, someone who's acting offended after seeming to have taken an ironic statement literally may also be being ironic. If I'm not sure, I keep my mouth shut. Sometimes.

There are folks all over who'll just barge in somewhere without finding out what's going on first. When people take exception to their behavior, they get their shorts in a bunch because the group won't adapt to their way of doing things. That's going to happen, but it doesn't make any sense to react to their anger with more anger. At the end of the day, the group the barger is pissed off at will not have changed to meet their demands. The only unknown is how many of the group members will allow the barger to bunch up their shorts for them.

There was a time when it seemed folks were more concerned, not with their rights to say whateverthehell they wanted, but whether their thoughts were appropriate here. Maybe it just seems that way to me. I tend to write long, angry posts, and then usually hit the back button before I submit them. I think others probably also don't say everything they'd like, but a few of those angry posts DO escape. We've got more folks here now, so probably we probably have a greater number of escaped flames.

Oh, and there is no "us" and "them" within Mudcat. Every single person who posts here determines the overall feel of the place. People don't spend time in the threads about Mudcat unless they want to be a part of the "community." They wouldn't troll unless they needed recognition from other Mudcatters. It's just a shame that some of them crave abuse. It's more of a shame that some of us can occasionally let ourselves be provoked into abusing them.

Oh well, time to climb down from this horse and go practice guitar. Now where'd I put that ladder...

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 03:27 PM

kat, "I said I'd lay odds if I run a poll", perhaps I'm wrong - I don't think I'm going to try one to find out whos names really came up most often.

Everything in the garden is rosey, is my interpretation over a situation whereby when anyone questions anything here such as this thread, the result is so many "you've got a problem" type answers.

Jon

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 04:20 PM

Well Jon, I don't think everything is rosy, but I do think being positive in the things I can do is the best approach. I think some of us address what we think needs improvement by just seeing to the parts we can see to ourselves, not by laying out what someone else ought to fix.

Maybe it has to do with an innate trust I have that other people are doing that too, many of them, much of the time-- such as Max, making improvements here once he sees the need clearly from his own viewpoint and once a smart enough idea occurs to him.

It reminds me of a program I designed, developed, and ran in a school system. There were some serious wrongs that needed to be addressed, and many of them were longstanding issues arising from societal blind spots. After soliciting everyone's sense of what was needed, it took awhile before I came up with something. But the thing I came up with integrated all of the input, much of it from people who could not tolerate talking to one another but who had laid out their concerns for me as a neutral person. The progam addressed ALL of the issues, and the root causes, in such a fashion that it actually made a difference to the people incvolved and to the system itself.

Yes, something "ought" to have been done sooner about each and every sub-issue, small problem, and individual wrong that as being done... but it just so happened that it was not possible, until it became possible, to do anything within the actual situation involved.

Sometimes you have to be close enough to the situation to know why this or that idea is simply not workable in combination with all the other factors that exist. So you have a choice then-- do as much as one can do with what is already possible, trusting that more will become possible.... or decide that it is NOT workable as it is, and even if it might get better, leave because it is not presently tenable and something else is more effective.

I choose to trust that Max's innate curiosity and drive to create will lead him to keep tinkering away at Mudcat such that it continues to improve. But I find myself less and less patient with people who bail out (not you Jon), while the process of responding to their concerns is occurring, because they do not have the willingness to see that it IS occurring. It is very frustrating to work at designing a solution only to find that by the time you can put it into practice, many of the people you were trying to respond to have bailed out! My music ministry discussion went that way. I lost a lot of hours trying to structure into it what people said they wanted, even tho I didn't want it myself. They had moved on. Oh well. Live and learn.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 04:27 PM

Thanks, Jon, I get your point, just wondered who and what was said,as I pointed out, I haven't seen too many, that I can think of. I think there are a lot of us who just don't say anything, anymore, either way. It seems a never-ending subject, positive or not.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: heric
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 04:46 PM

Jeri is so cool. What you cliquers should do is collect a bunch of her posts from various threads of this nature, and assemble them into a permathread. Then whenever someone starts a why does Mudcat suck so bad thread, just refer them to the permathread. This is a good idea. (So is the pig's head on a stick, thing, tough.)

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: mmm1a
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 05:24 PM

Nerd I hope you stick around, sounds like you are someone who could add positive things to mudcat. As for this place being bitter ok sometimes I guess but I don't tend to dwell on it,. I come here for information and to just hang out sometimes. I usually ignore irratating comments. Actually I only had one derected at me and that was a long while back and I chose to ignore it. I have learned to much here to let annoying posts keep me away mmm

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Alice
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 09:20 PM

Guest JJ, in re-reading your initial message starting this thread, my attention was brought to the line "a bit of love and friendship would help here". Actually, I have seen alot of love and friendship expressed here, more than any other forum or e-list on the internet that I have experienced. When Bill Sables came over from England and made a road trip with Allan C. all over the US and into Canada, just to meet Mudcat forum users, play music together, and share some friendship and good will, I was overwhelmed that they traveled all the way to Montana just to meet me. I may never meet alison in Australia, but I feel like I know her in a very friendly way, that I can trade stories of our kids, etc. There are people who use the Mudcat site whom I may never meet in person, but they have sent me tapes, lyrics, photos, support, ... all out of generosity and the spirit of friendship. The group of people here has been inclusive, for the most part, and many have formed long distance friendships that are like having pen pals who write to you almost every day. Bitter? I think not.

Alice

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 10:19 PM

"a bit of love and friendship would help here"

Alice, beyond that - everyone should check out the Secret Santa threads - that had to have been one of Mudcat's finest hours! 7 mian threads and at least 3 other sub threads also means that it really involved those who took part. Also, you mention alison in Australia. I'll probably never meet her either, but I had the honor of being her Secret Santa and soon afterwards there was a thread about bush fires in the Syney area. I probably wouldn't have checked the thread out, but I now had a personal connection with alison.

I love the fact that I regularly enter conversations with people in Australia, Iceland, Ireland and everywhere else.

The Mudcat is a wonderful (albeit imperfect) place!

pax yall

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 10:45 PM

Hey, Nerd: I jus watched one of my favorite movies, Sullivan's Travels, and your comment about Philadelphia reminded me of a great line in the movie. When the film Director was challenged because his last movie bombed in Pittsburgh. He said something like, "What do they know?If they knew anything, they wouldn't be living in Pittsburgh." I got a big laugh out of the line, being a Pittsburgh Pirate fan for many years. I thought the old line was that as a booby prize, you got a one way ticket to Philadpelhia? (Thread creep, I know...)
Jerry

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Nerd
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 10:59 PM

mmm: Thanks, I think I will hang out a while!

Jerry:

Yeah, Philly's not the greatest, but I work in Camden, NJ! As I point out to my wife, you have to pay a $3.00 toll on any of the bridges from Camden to Philly, but the Philly-Camden direction is free. That's 'cause no one would pay three bucks to get to Camden!

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 12:25 AM

ha ha!

Local joke ahead (hell, it's after midnight - no one's around):

We have a town east of Orlando called Bithlo - it is renowned in the area for auto salvage yards, crane rental yards and the local dragstrip/circle track. Just east of Bithlo is the town of Christmas - nice little place with a historical fort, a post office and a bunch of nice, quiet retirees. In order to get to Christmas from Orlando, one must pass through Bithlo. There's a bumper sticker that's popular around here that says "Bithlo, the nightmare before Christmas" pax yall

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 12:40 AM

Sheesh, Blackcatter, you ought to put that story AND one of those bumper stickers in the auction! I'd love to have one...no one here would have a clue!*bg*

Alice, well-said.

kat

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 01:01 AM

Yes Please make this a permathread so we can have this as boiler plate and not use anymore space on this stuff.

Golly, I'm just consumed with angst and question my self identity now that I've sullied myself with the Mudcat. I'll have to go read Albert Camus and Sartre to understand the meaning of all this.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 01:43 AM

I don't like being in debt, harpgirl. I have some money left from an old Monopoly game- will that do? Doesn't look any stranger than our new bills and I can spare a little more than $50.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: RichM
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 04:46 AM

Too much salt. Needs some sugar...

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 06:56 AM

If we never aired our views here which are critical of this forum, how would Max ever know why people are dissatisfied, and leaving the forum? How would he know that people wanted change, if we didn't have these threads?

Max recently posted that he too was concerned with the BS driving people away who come here to discuss music. He also hinted that he is working on installing a filter to deal with it. I'm sure that threatens a good number of people here who spend most or all of their time here in the BS threads. So be it. The sign over the door does still say Mudcat is for the discussion of music, after all. Since Max hasn't changed that sign, maybe you BSers need to start looking for alternative housing, and not the other way round.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 07:25 AM

Nope.....Not what Max said at all. Max rightly believes that there is room for all and is trying to come up with ways ( the filtering system ) which will keep things hopefully happier.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 07:38 AM

And some of us believe that you will never please everyone, as you've rightly said elsewhere Spaw.

In my mind, you can either have a music forum or a BS forum, but it can't be both because the BSers will always outnumber and outgun the music people, just as we see happening here.

For some people who come here looking for music, they will have one look, and turn around leave, because this place has taken on the look and tone of a 12 year old boy usenet forum, due to the BS. For others with an posting agenda that makes them needy for attention/community, this place is like coming home, I'm sure.

That Mudcat has become the latter, when it was once the former, does make some of us who originally came here to discuss music bitter. If and when I leave the forum, it will be because the filtering system didn't solve the music to BS ratio problems either, and Max decides to let the BSers have their way rather than run them off, or just shuts the place down.

What my hope is, is that the filtering system will work to keep BSers out of the music threads. But short of moderation, I don't believe it is going to work.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,From Venus
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 10:11 AM

Jeri,

There is a difference between being a bitter person generally, and having bitter feelings specific to a person, circumstance, or event.

I don't believe that trying to change Mudcat regulars behavior is the answer. But if this forum were to be made a music-only discussion forum, it is my belief that many of the problem posters would be gone, and if there were only one type of log-in for using the forum, the major cause of needless contention on this site, could be eliminated.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 12:57 PM

"The fact that almost any controversial point of view now has to be stated anonymously"

Can't say I've ever noticed that...

My feeling is, if it's truly anonymous, in the sense that there isn't any kind of label attached to it, just plain GUEST, it might be controversial, at least formally, but it doesn't count as a point of view. A point of view means "this is what I think, and I stand by it."

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 01:49 PM

Just for the sake of discussion, how exactly would Max "make" this be ANY sort of place?

~S~

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,From Venus
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 02:29 PM

WYSIWYG,

I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you wondering how it is done technically? With filters is the short and sleazy answer. There would be an initial period of time when "the new rules" would have to be monitored and policed, which would take more work short term. Long term, posters using this forum would quickly learn that if they continued to violate the rules Max laid down, their posts to the forum would be blocked. That can be done technically by a sys admin, site owner/maintainer, etc. pretty easily. That is the technical way of keeping people behaving civilly, and posting on-topic. It is a method often used on mailing lists and in moderated newsgroups.

But really, the main way that on-topicness and civil behavior is maintained on-line is by keeping out the riff raff (ie not having a site accessible to posting on for anyone in cyberspace who chooses to crash the party--which is what moderated forums and mailing lists do), and for the group to be self-policing of one another.

As to what would happen to the off-topic chatters in a music-only forum at Mudcat, I'm sure many of them would leave and find another roost, as they always do. That too is "real life" on the Internet. Good groups and forums come and go and change on-line all the time, just like in real life.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 03:31 PM

McGrath: I agree. I think members who post controversial messages as a "Guest" simply don't have the courage of their convictions, or simply have no courage.

It still is not clear to me why the Music and BS threads cannot live in harmony. If you don't like B.S., don't tune in. I think those who are concerned only about music threads would be surprised to learn how many of us who love music, but cannot make a meaningful contribution to most music threads, read them, and enjoy them.

I think Spaw, and a few others have the right idea. If the Mudcat, as Max wants it to be, is not to your liking, start a new site that suits your needs. This is Max's site. We refer to it as our community, but we are only visitors.

DougR

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,From Venus
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 04:15 PM

DougR,

Having a private mailing list or moderated newsgroup doesn't have to prevent others from reading the posts. In some kinds of moderated newsgroups, one can read all the messages, but posts are reviewed by a moderator to insure the post meets the criteria of the forum, before being posted.

Some private mailing lists are archived and can be read by anyone too. Some Mudcatters seem to only be familiar with Mudcat, and don't understand just how many technical solutions really do exist to the types of problems/complaints we see regularly lodged here. It is done all the time to create a decent, reasonable atmosphere for people who don't want to put up with the volume of BS, the amount of rudeness masqueraded as "humor", and needless, pointless bickering over how a poster logs in to post here, we see ad nauseum here on Mudcat. Some of us with more extensive discussion forum experience (going back to the BBS days all the way up to the present instant messaging options), know it doesn't have to be this bad at Mudcat. There are some very simple technical solutions which, up to now, we haven't seen implemented here, for whatever reasons Max has. Particularly the member/guest log-in thing. It is a simple thing to change, and make it so everyone who wishes to post has to log-in the same way. How many stupid threads, posts, flame wars, whining about guests would that eliminate do you suppose? Wouldn't that make Mudcat a more livable place? It is pretty clear that swapping stolen identity problems for member/guest problems didn't solve much of anything for anyone, did it?

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 04:28 PM

I don't think courage comes into it really. I mean, what's going to happen to a labelless GUEST, if they adopt a label? All right, maybe if you are identified as being the person who uttered some opinion about some controversial subject, that might carry over into the music threads.

"That bastard thinks that euros are good/bad/interesting - so I'm going to sneer at what he or she says about banjo tuning."

Doesn't seem likely. And in any case it's easy enough using a different pseudonym for different threads, and maintain an unsullied anonymity, while exercising a modicum of courtesy towards others.

No, the only reason I am able to envisage for the practice (leaving aside the occasional time it happens accidentally) is because it's a way of blowing a raspberry at the rest of the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,From Venus
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 04:43 PM

I just wanted to reiterate what someone else mentioned either in this thread or the other on volumes of posts here at Mudcat being a problem for some of us desiring a music-only discussion forum.

I want people who don't understand why some of us feel BS and music threads can't co-exist peacefully and get along. It is because of the volume of the BS. I don't have limitless amounts of time to spend on-line like so many here engaging in non-music chat apparently do. That makes the sheer volume created here difficult to deal with for me. Just because a thread title is a music title doesn't mean a tremendous amount of BS thread drift isn't occurring in that music thread.

Forums which are stricter about on-topic posting seem to do this sort of thing less, which makes for less time trying to wade through and find what you want to read. For some of us who are in front of computer screens all day long for our jobs, on-topic posting can be a bigger issue than to the people who are on-line for amusement and entertainment, and not to earn a living.

Hope that helps some of you understand why some of us are so vehement about the BS thing. It really does cut our on-line music discussion enjoyment to a minimum. And sometimes makes it intolerable.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 04:46 PM

I'm almost at the point where I believe everyone should have to register before posting. (Not reading.) I never really envisioned myself feeling that way, but it's come to the point where this "elite" members vs. persecuted guest thing is SO OLD that perhaps everyone should have to be part of the "elite."

Guest, the "guest" tag did solve the stolen identity problem.

The filters Max will implement won't keep people for posting or reading anything they choose. They allow a person to self-censor what they read. They're designed to allow people to prevent themselves from seeing posts with certain terms (such as "BS:") they don't want to see. I don't believe this is an idea that will threaten anyone. Personally, I'd be happy as hell if someone like you, who hates BS, has the ability to make it go away for themself. Most of us are here primarily to enjoy ourselves, whether in music threads, BS threads, or both. The complaining by a couple of people and the thought of the possible disgruntlement of others who may not say anything about it, about what subject people talk about hinders that enjoyment for everyone. I don't find any enjoyment in the thought that anyone's unhappy, and I would hope you don't either.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 04:50 PM

GUEST said this above:

" In my mind, you can either have a music forum or a BS forum, but it can't be both because the BSers will always outnumber and outgun the music people, just as we see happening here."

WRONG. I've been a member of Mudcat for 3 1/2 years. There have been BS threads and music threads coinciding for at least that long. The ONLY thing that's changed in that time is more people know about the Mudcat. But I don't see that as being dangerous - the main drawback is that there are more Flamers/Trolls to wander in, but they wander off just as quickly.To me they're like toilet paper. They sit quietly until they must do their thing and then they move on to their just reward.

TO MAX:

This is a great place. I came here for music info and stayed around because of the discussion of both music and other subject. Many of the regulars see the world through music and I feel very comfortable with that. Most of the music discussions don't interest me for various reasons, but many do. I keep visiting every day because there's usually something interesting happening.

Pax yall

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,From Venus
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 05:08 PM

Jeri,

We are pretty much in agreement. You are right in saying the member/guest log-in solved one person's stolen identity problem. I wouldn't say it solved the problem of stolen identities, though. In flame wars, guest identities get stolen and abused, just like some member's identities still do. I'm glad to see that you agree that the whole member/guest log-in thing has become such a point of contention that it does make sense to make it one or the other. I do consider that progress, considering your position at Mudcat.

As to the BS filters, well...they aren't here yet, are they? Of course it will make me happier. Will it solve the problems with BS/thread hijacking/non-music thread drift which will undoubtedly seep through the filters? I don't know, but am willing to give it a chance when it gets implemented.

Finally, no I don't get any kicks out of hindering other peoples' enjoyment. But I do wish more posters who come here mostly for non-music chat nowadays (and the volume is a whole lot more than it was when the content of Mudcat was more about music than everything else), would understand how much they hinder the enjoyment of those of us who have been coming here for music conversation for years. Rather than attacking us as whiners and spoil sports, even when we are trying to make things work better for all. Including leaving, if it makes it better and more enjoyable for the "more chat, less music" folk who are the clear majority here nowadays. I'm tired of all the incessant bickering, and the fact that nothing is changing, and that the things that annoy me/lessen my enjoyment the most seem to be increasing in popularity here. I'm too tired to fight the tide anymore. It just isn't worth it. Too negative, too non-productive, and no joy.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 05:18 PM

The BS filter has been an option for a LONG time, and has been publicized often. All you need to do is set your Mudcat bookmarks to the following URLs:

http://www.mudcat.org/threadsnot.cfm?Title=BS:

http://ragtime.mudcat.org/threadsnot.cfm?Title=BS:

http://loki.mudcat.org/threadsnot.cfm?Title=BS:

Once you are in the forum page, after opening a thread you need to use that URL and the browser's GO button to re-filter the thread list. Use it also instead of the Mudcat's REFRESH button to reset the page whenever needed.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 07:35 PM

Nerd, I was gonna make a remark about Camden, but I won't go there;-) Seriously, Camden doesn't look the same after they cleaned up Admiral Wilson Blvd for the Republican Convention--

You may know that many historic recordings were made in the old RCA studio, which, until just a few years ago, was adjecent to the foot of the Benjamin Franklin Bridge--a lot of Ralph Peer's recording was done there, so, arguably, it could have been the birthplace of country music--and of course, much more--any other part of the country would have turned it into a national monument--sorry, everyone, for the thread drift;-)

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 08:10 PM

That's clever and worked a treat WYSIWYG - got rid of all the threads labelled BS.

Only trouble is that a very high proportion of the threads that came through were still very much BS, so it doesn't solve the problem for the BS-phobes.

I'm not one of them, because I wander happily between the BS and the music ones. (And in fact there are plenty of music ones which could quite appropriately be termed BS, and a good few non-music ones where it doesn't really seem too appropriate.) But I recognise the problem of people who can't find what they are looking for in the crowd. Recognise the problem, but most of the suggested solutions really introduce what I would see as greater problems.

Myself, if there was suddenly some policy of excluding non-music threads, I'd probably spend a lot less time here. The magic music threads are always outnumbered by ones which might be formally about music, but don't have too much of an enriching quality - for example, the listing ones, "who is your favourite etc". They have their place,and you can find out people who you wouldn't have otherwise. But to trust somebody's judgement, you need to have some understanding of them, and you get as much as anything from the BS threads, I feel.

It really would make life easier if everyone made a point of labelling any thread they started, and giving it an informative subject title. But they won't. Maybe one answer is to avoid opening any thread that doesn't have a label - such as this one. It might means missing some interesting discussion and explorations, but if enough people did it, maybe some of the non-labellers would get the message. I think I'll do that.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 08:43 PM

Guest, Venus, something no one has brought up: who is going to pay for full-time moderator/s to do all of this policing you want? Also, imo, you are making VERY broad generalisations about people whom you probably do not know very well. The people you paint with the broad BS brush could just be well-rounded individuals who are not rigid about their music. As I said elsewhere, it seems to me that GUESTs start more BS threads bitching about the Mudcat, than others. If you are so tired of it, why do you persist?

Jeri, well said.

kat

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 08:45 PM

I didn't come up with that one, McGrath, I just have it stashed in my bookmarks. I think originally it was just BS and then the colon was added later to keep the wrong threads from being filtered out... "GiBSon guitars," for instance, would be screened out.

I think one of the reaons people don't always use the BS prefix is because they feel as if it says the content of the topic is BS-- a pejorative word. (I say this based on what some people said in PMs when I asked them about using it) ... and that was when I realized how important is the difference between a verb and a noun. I don't know if you have this connotation in the UK-- a verb, "to bullshit around," meaning to sort of explore and play together. But that's how I see that prefix. It doesn't mean the subject is not worthy... it means the discussion is going to be fairly informal and broad ABOUT a serious topic. Like shooting the breeze. But these two connotations seem to account for the divide over requiring its use and complying with requests to use it.

I had this funny image earlier today of Max trying to implement some of the things some of the "Guest" posters seem to want. In this image, Max was stooped over a huge monitor mounted in the top of his desk, poring over about a dozen open windows, each one containing an open thread. Pore fella was all bent from the hours and hours in the chair every day... (potty seat in the chair of course)..... people were dropping by with food cuz he was wasting away..... crazed eyes.... He wasn't combing the music threads looking for BADDDDD BS to delete though.... Nope, he was scouring the BS threads making sure they didn't contain any music, because if they did how could he delete them?

That's the "curse" of the current Mudcat system-- that music stuff just WILL not stay out of even the silliest discussions! *G* Cuz... those dang musicians just WON'T be controlled!

Then there was the idea that a moderator would pre-authorize posts before they'd be hung up to dry..... Oh yeah, I know about that kind of forum, I had one for awhile that you could set up that way. But, um, here, how many hits a day are there here and how many moderators would it take to do that, and how would you get them to agree on how to apply the rule to musicians?????

~Susan

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 09:07 PM

I don't know of any paid moderators of newsgroups and mailing lists on-line, though I'm sure some big bucks folks pay moderators of really huge groups.

But in the folk realm, it is usually volunteers who moderate, or the site owner. Once the on-topic issue is enshrined in the FAQ, along with expected behavior, it is extremely rare that there are problems. Most moderators are on cruise control, really. Only when really nasty stuff happens (ie hackers, spammers, etc), or technical problems arise (how do I unsubscribe sorts of questions) do they have to get involved. Other than that, all the moderated lists and newsgroups I've ever been in have been, the moderators are pretty transparent, and the job fairly simple once it is set up.

PS I hope the new filtering software does a better job than the above suggestion for filtering BS WYSIWYG suggests we use.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 09:25 PM

Guest from Venus,

Why should it only be about what makes you happy? And, why should everyone else leave, so you can talk about whatever you want? And, anyway, what have you got to say about music that is so worthwhile?

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 10:36 PM

Yes......... moderators could do it as volunteers... but AFTER the horse has left the barn and is tearing madly around the countryside? I don't think so...

I make no comment on the effectiveness of that BS: filter BTW-- just saying, we do have a thing now we can use if we choose.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 10:57 PM

Guest seems to forget that this is a moderated list. There are people here who do put in a lot of thime making sure that things continue to function pretty well. Problem is they aren't the NAZIS that Guest thinks they should be.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 01:20 PM

Agreed.... GUEST doesnt feel he's had any impact unless he gets banned. Strange then that he is here rather than on a Site that will do that.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 02:25 PM

When it comes to Guests - well an ISP identifier would help immensely. When one logs on their ISP is recorded. If they receive more than 10 complaints about their posting they are blocked - or their e-mail addy is made available for the Clank to bugger with. I am sure that either Max or Jon have an idea of how that might work.

It's quite ammusing that Guest spends more time in the threads he doesn't like - kind of co-opts himself.

And only if I let you Guest LMAO!!!

Steve

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 03:17 PM

Okay, WYSIWYG has posted the URLs for the BS filter, but where's the flame filter? *G*

BTW, I'll never understand why people who claim that they only want to see discussions about music on this forum spend so much time and energy discussing this forum instead of music.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 03:43 PM

Well, Sharon, I tried this but it didn't work:

http://www.mudcat.org/threadsnot.cfm?Poster=Assholism

I'm joining (founding) Assholanon, for people affected by the assholery of others. I WAS in Assholes Anonymous (founded that one too) but it's important to treat both ends of the spectrum for full recovery!

~Former Co-Asshole

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 04:00 PM

Norton1,

You are simply showing your ignorance if you think showing someone's ISP would be helpful.

You probably mean IP, but as has been discussed in many other threads, that doesn't really tell you anything very useful either.

Learn a bit more before making stupid posts like that, please

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: marty D
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 04:57 PM

It troubles me to keep this idiocy going any longer but thanks to McGrath (and WYSIWYG earlier) I noticed that I left out two little words in my previous post that TOTALLY change the meaning. In fact they make it sound like I believe the exact opposite.

I said:"The fact that almost any controversial point of view now has to be stated anonymously....

I meant: "The fact that SOME THINK that any controversial....

Holy Moley, I'm NOT in favour of anonymous posts that are contentious!

marty

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 05:02 PM

If so many people don't like non music threads, how come this thread is so long [ Now at 176 }
What maybe we have here is prejudice rearing its ugly head. You know; erudition rules OK. There are different degrees of involvement in folk music as in all things, and just because you're totally into something, doesn't mean that somebody else can't be partly into the same thing. Life is "not all or nothing", "black or white",or any other absolute you care to mention. People who want a totally regulated life should join the army, or better still a monastery/nunnery, where they will be surrounded by thier own ilk.
Yes some threads are banal, inane, and irrelevant, but lets have a bit of tolerance please guys.
"The world is just a great big onion".....Giok

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 08:01 PM

" lets have a bit of tolerance please "

Including, I trust tolerance towards monks and nuns. My understanding is that there's probably about as much disagreement in monasteries and convents as there is on the Cat.

It goes with being human.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 08:19 PM

Sure there is some crap here, but, there is a lot more of it in the outside world. If you dont think so, go into some of the chat rooms. Nothing but gutter language and disrespect for others. We are a very civil group by comparison.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 08:28 PM

By comparison to the potty mouthed 12 year old adolescent boys, kendall? Now there's some high praise for Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 08:28 PM

YAWWWWN x 2 If you like it, stay. If you don't like it, leave. Nuff said.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 08:33 PM

Mudcat right or wrong. Mudcat love it or leave it.

Rednecks in folkie coats?

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 08:42 PM

Not exactly, dearie. Mudcat is only a site on the Internet, not a geographical place you actually need to "leave". If you don't like it, start your own place with your own rules. I think that has been said enough times. Go ye therefore and leave us to our own vices. We do have enough of those, I know.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,don hakman
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 08:51 PM

It was bitter enough here for me to leave for months on end.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 09:48 PM

Folks: please stop rising to Guest bait. That's what creates 186 length threads. They just want to cause dissention. They don't give a damn about the Mudcat.

DougR

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 10:08 PM

What guest?

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 10:41 PM

Yes.... follow Sorcha's song....leave....and let the DT become the environs of the "good fairies" and the kindred keltred that recruited her.

GUEST....stick around
we need more like folk to claim the higher ground.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 11:26 PM

29 January, 8:33P.M., Kendall.

DougR

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 11:32 PM

Kendall: you and Garg obviously view Guest's remarks (2/29-8:33P.M.) different from the way I view them. I view them as inflammatory, you haven't said one way or the other you are still searching for the guest I refer to, and Garg applauds him/her. Okie dokie I say, 'tis a free country. One can still think what one wants to, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 12:39 AM

I don't think that anyone in the last 20 or so threads has been "rising to the bait" of the GUEST who's been trolling here. To me that would be lashing out at the faceless thing who is posting as GUEST.

As for wasting (now) 190 messages on this subject, exactly what is being wasted. Electricity maybe, and a bit of bandwidth, but what else. If someone doesn't like this thread, why can't they ignore it? I don't like pro-wrestling, but I don't whine that it's on tv or at the local arena. As long as there's enough stuff out their that I like, I could care less what else is available.

I have enjoyed posting to this thread - I'm not stupid enough to be posting without liking it. I brush my teeth because it's good for me. I work 50 hours a week on computers (and probably 25 hours of that are internet work) Trust me, I LIKE WRITING THIS.

pax yall

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 10:19 AM

Blackcatter, you claim no one is is flaming and trolling here?

You and some other regulars' attempts to equate those wanting a music-only discussion forum with Nazis sure qualifies in my book as just that. That sort of spurious and disingenuous argument is of the very worst sort seen on the Internet. But sadly, it seems to be par for the course for your lot of Mudcat regulars.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 12:39 PM

Doug, that was my way of ignoring guest.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 01:23 PM

Kendall: Oh. Blackcatter: You don't like pro-wrestling!!! I don't either.

DougR

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 01:57 PM

GUEST 30-Jan-02 10:19 AM: On the "Mudcat Chatter" thread, one of the GUESTs dropped by to visit and say that people who engage in banter on music threads are "hijacking" the thread..... as if we were terrorists instead of music-lovers with a sense of humor. So please don't assume that it's only the "regulars" who engage in "that sort of spurious and disingenuous argument of the very worst sort seen on the Internet."

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 02:52 PM

Personally, I invest a quite a bit of time in music-only discussions, a lot of it in listening to music and trying to help people who are trying to play it, or just understand it--sometimes, it takes quite a while to write a short, clear response, and a lot of times, like in my attempt to explain how to play leads with that "Django" feeling of quickness, the response is neither short nor clear--

I don't begrudge anyone their non-music thoughts or threads, because learning, playing, and performing music is really demanding, and fairly unrelenting work, and your mind does wander from time to time--even still, it would be nice if there was more interest threads like the ones about Blind Lemon Jefferson, and Doc Watson--

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 03:01 PM

GUEST: Please read my post wherein I used the word "NAZIS" Assuming you know how to read, you will see that I didn't say that the guests are nazis, but that they seem to wish that our moderators here are - that reference was connected to the Nazis' well-known desire to CENSOR everything they don't like.

The owner of this group is the only person who has an absolute right to decide what does on here. Nobody else has that right because they don't own the site. Max allows non-music threads so anyone who comes here and insists that he do something different is pissing directly into a windstorm. Sure, you can do it, but what good will it do?

If you want a music discussion site without the "BS" - start it yourself.

As to the suggestion that I flame - well, possibly, I do. I don't think so, because I respond to others negative comments and I don't call people names usually. Please be aware that I can be a great deal more negative if I want, but I chose not to because I don't want to offend the good people who are reading this thread.

GUEST - if you think this place sucks, just leave. If you think by posting, you're going to get me upset - you're wasting your time. I've gone head to head in protests with Skin-heads, American Nazis, the KKK and all sort of other "mean and nasty people" as Arlo used to say. There's nothing you can do to bother me.

pax yall.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 03:03 PM

Posts like this from Mudcat members make me bitter.

Ekh. What a load. Just when I thought I couldn't hate America any more... Seriously, someone from a good country: Adopt me.

----Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 03:18 PM

Ummm...

If you check the thread, you'll see the post was posted by GUEST. As for the signature "Lepus Rex" I don't reckognize the name as a member, and the Latin term means "Hare King" which doesn't help much in the identification.

And to be honest, I don't even know what that thread means.

For all I know GUEST - it could have been you.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 03:30 PM

And you're really gullible enough to take that seriously? Is it because it mentions America? Perhaps if someone said it about Britain, or Portugal, or Greece you wouldn't be bothered. Do you perhaps lack the ability to laugh at yourself, or your country, or is it rather a case of "Me, guest right or wrong"?
Therapy....Giok

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 04:08 PM

Blackcatter: That post from GUEST quoting Lepus Rex was referring to the "BS: Bush's Speech" thread. Lepus has posted as a member since May 2000, according to the Forum Search. In fact, he posted as a member where GUEST lifted the quote from (see Lepus's post on "BS: Bush's Speech" 29-Jan-02 10:15 PM).

GUEST's bitterness about Lepus's dissatisfaction with the USA no doubt stems from an opposing political or nationalistic view, which is a separate issue from the person-to-person "bullying, snideness, oneupmanship etc." issue raised in post #1 of this thread (way back when). If this forum were moderated as some GUESTs would have it, neither Lepus nor GUEST would be allowed to express their bitterness. One of the great things about free speech is that anyone is free to grouse about anyone else's freedom of speech!

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 12:02 AM

I just realized the Lepus is a member. oops! I couldn't figure it all out. It's a bit ironice the "GUEST" is not only a pain but is a bit crazy too.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Ralphie
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 02:37 AM

203 posts so far....(OK 204 now)
Is this a record for a pointless argument???
Stop it ....NOW!!
Anybody know any songs......??
(He asked with little hope of a sensible reply)

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 03:18 AM

This kind of thread is like a car accident. I don't want to look but I do anyway.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 03:04 PM

ah, but do you ever get involved with an accident?

Ralphie, what is the problem? Why does this thread bother you?

pax yall