Why is this place so bitter?

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 03:04 PM

ah, but do you ever get involved with an accident?

Ralphie, what is the problem? Why does this thread bother you?

pax yall

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 03:18 AM

This kind of thread is like a car accident. I don't want to look but I do anyway.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Ralphie
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 02:37 AM

203 posts so far....(OK 204 now)
Is this a record for a pointless argument???
Stop it ....NOW!!
Anybody know any songs......??
(He asked with little hope of a sensible reply)

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 12:02 AM

I just realized the Lepus is a member. oops! I couldn't figure it all out. It's a bit ironice the "GUEST" is not only a pain but is a bit crazy too.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 04:08 PM

Blackcatter: That post from GUEST quoting Lepus Rex was referring to the "BS: Bush's Speech" thread. Lepus has posted as a member since May 2000, according to the Forum Search. In fact, he posted as a member where GUEST lifted the quote from (see Lepus's post on "BS: Bush's Speech" 29-Jan-02 10:15 PM).

GUEST's bitterness about Lepus's dissatisfaction with the USA no doubt stems from an opposing political or nationalistic view, which is a separate issue from the person-to-person "bullying, snideness, oneupmanship etc." issue raised in post #1 of this thread (way back when). If this forum were moderated as some GUESTs would have it, neither Lepus nor GUEST would be allowed to express their bitterness. One of the great things about free speech is that anyone is free to grouse about anyone else's freedom of speech!

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 03:30 PM

And you're really gullible enough to take that seriously? Is it because it mentions America? Perhaps if someone said it about Britain, or Portugal, or Greece you wouldn't be bothered. Do you perhaps lack the ability to laugh at yourself, or your country, or is it rather a case of "Me, guest right or wrong"?
Therapy....Giok

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 03:18 PM

Ummm...

If you check the thread, you'll see the post was posted by GUEST. As for the signature "Lepus Rex" I don't reckognize the name as a member, and the Latin term means "Hare King" which doesn't help much in the identification.

And to be honest, I don't even know what that thread means.

For all I know GUEST - it could have been you.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 03:03 PM

Posts like this from Mudcat members make me bitter.

Ekh. What a load. Just when I thought I couldn't hate America any more... Seriously, someone from a good country: Adopt me.

----Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 03:01 PM

GUEST: Please read my post wherein I used the word "NAZIS" Assuming you know how to read, you will see that I didn't say that the guests are nazis, but that they seem to wish that our moderators here are - that reference was connected to the Nazis' well-known desire to CENSOR everything they don't like.

The owner of this group is the only person who has an absolute right to decide what does on here. Nobody else has that right because they don't own the site. Max allows non-music threads so anyone who comes here and insists that he do something different is pissing directly into a windstorm. Sure, you can do it, but what good will it do?

If you want a music discussion site without the "BS" - start it yourself.

As to the suggestion that I flame - well, possibly, I do. I don't think so, because I respond to others negative comments and I don't call people names usually. Please be aware that I can be a great deal more negative if I want, but I chose not to because I don't want to offend the good people who are reading this thread.

GUEST - if you think this place sucks, just leave. If you think by posting, you're going to get me upset - you're wasting your time. I've gone head to head in protests with Skin-heads, American Nazis, the KKK and all sort of other "mean and nasty people" as Arlo used to say. There's nothing you can do to bother me.

pax yall.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 02:52 PM

Personally, I invest a quite a bit of time in music-only discussions, a lot of it in listening to music and trying to help people who are trying to play it, or just understand it--sometimes, it takes quite a while to write a short, clear response, and a lot of times, like in my attempt to explain how to play leads with that "Django" feeling of quickness, the response is neither short nor clear--

I don't begrudge anyone their non-music thoughts or threads, because learning, playing, and performing music is really demanding, and fairly unrelenting work, and your mind does wander from time to time--even still, it would be nice if there was more interest threads like the ones about Blind Lemon Jefferson, and Doc Watson--

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 01:57 PM

GUEST 30-Jan-02 10:19 AM: On the "Mudcat Chatter" thread, one of the GUESTs dropped by to visit and say that people who engage in banter on music threads are "hijacking" the thread..... as if we were terrorists instead of music-lovers with a sense of humor. So please don't assume that it's only the "regulars" who engage in "that sort of spurious and disingenuous argument of the very worst sort seen on the Internet."

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 01:23 PM

Kendall: Oh. Blackcatter: You don't like pro-wrestling!!! I don't either.

DougR

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 12:39 PM

Doug, that was my way of ignoring guest.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 10:19 AM

Blackcatter, you claim no one is is flaming and trolling here?

You and some other regulars' attempts to equate those wanting a music-only discussion forum with Nazis sure qualifies in my book as just that. That sort of spurious and disingenuous argument is of the very worst sort seen on the Internet. But sadly, it seems to be par for the course for your lot of Mudcat regulars.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 12:39 AM

I don't think that anyone in the last 20 or so threads has been "rising to the bait" of the GUEST who's been trolling here. To me that would be lashing out at the faceless thing who is posting as GUEST.

As for wasting (now) 190 messages on this subject, exactly what is being wasted. Electricity maybe, and a bit of bandwidth, but what else. If someone doesn't like this thread, why can't they ignore it? I don't like pro-wrestling, but I don't whine that it's on tv or at the local arena. As long as there's enough stuff out their that I like, I could care less what else is available.

I have enjoyed posting to this thread - I'm not stupid enough to be posting without liking it. I brush my teeth because it's good for me. I work 50 hours a week on computers (and probably 25 hours of that are internet work) Trust me, I LIKE WRITING THIS.

pax yall

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 11:32 PM

Kendall: you and Garg obviously view Guest's remarks (2/29-8:33P.M.) different from the way I view them. I view them as inflammatory, you haven't said one way or the other you are still searching for the guest I refer to, and Garg applauds him/her. Okie dokie I say, 'tis a free country. One can still think what one wants to, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 11:26 PM

29 January, 8:33P.M., Kendall.

DougR

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 10:41 PM

Yes.... follow Sorcha's song....leave....and let the DT become the environs of the "good fairies" and the kindred keltred that recruited her.

GUEST....stick around
we need more like folk to claim the higher ground.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 10:08 PM

What guest?

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 09:48 PM

Folks: please stop rising to Guest bait. That's what creates 186 length threads. They just want to cause dissention. They don't give a damn about the Mudcat.

DougR

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,don hakman
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 08:51 PM

It was bitter enough here for me to leave for months on end.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 08:42 PM

Not exactly, dearie. Mudcat is only a site on the Internet, not a geographical place you actually need to "leave". If you don't like it, start your own place with your own rules. I think that has been said enough times. Go ye therefore and leave us to our own vices. We do have enough of those, I know.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 08:33 PM

Mudcat right or wrong. Mudcat love it or leave it.

Rednecks in folkie coats?

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 08:28 PM

YAWWWWN x 2 If you like it, stay. If you don't like it, leave. Nuff said.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 08:28 PM

By comparison to the potty mouthed 12 year old adolescent boys, kendall? Now there's some high praise for Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 08:19 PM

Sure there is some crap here, but, there is a lot more of it in the outside world. If you dont think so, go into some of the chat rooms. Nothing but gutter language and disrespect for others. We are a very civil group by comparison.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 08:01 PM

" lets have a bit of tolerance please "

Including, I trust tolerance towards monks and nuns. My understanding is that there's probably about as much disagreement in monasteries and convents as there is on the Cat.

It goes with being human.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 05:02 PM

If so many people don't like non music threads, how come this thread is so long [ Now at 176 }
What maybe we have here is prejudice rearing its ugly head. You know; erudition rules OK. There are different degrees of involvement in folk music as in all things, and just because you're totally into something, doesn't mean that somebody else can't be partly into the same thing. Life is "not all or nothing", "black or white",or any other absolute you care to mention. People who want a totally regulated life should join the army, or better still a monastery/nunnery, where they will be surrounded by thier own ilk.
Yes some threads are banal, inane, and irrelevant, but lets have a bit of tolerance please guys.
"The world is just a great big onion".....Giok

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: marty D
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 04:57 PM

It troubles me to keep this idiocy going any longer but thanks to McGrath (and WYSIWYG earlier) I noticed that I left out two little words in my previous post that TOTALLY change the meaning. In fact they make it sound like I believe the exact opposite.

I said:"The fact that almost any controversial point of view now has to be stated anonymously....

I meant: "The fact that SOME THINK that any controversial....

Holy Moley, I'm NOT in favour of anonymous posts that are contentious!

marty

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 04:00 PM

Norton1,

You are simply showing your ignorance if you think showing someone's ISP would be helpful.

You probably mean IP, but as has been discussed in many other threads, that doesn't really tell you anything very useful either.

Learn a bit more before making stupid posts like that, please

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 03:43 PM

Well, Sharon, I tried this but it didn't work:

http://www.mudcat.org/threadsnot.cfm?Poster=Assholism

I'm joining (founding) Assholanon, for people affected by the assholery of others. I WAS in Assholes Anonymous (founded that one too) but it's important to treat both ends of the spectrum for full recovery!

~Former Co-Asshole

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 03:17 PM

Okay, WYSIWYG has posted the URLs for the BS filter, but where's the flame filter? *G*

BTW, I'll never understand why people who claim that they only want to see discussions about music on this forum spend so much time and energy discussing this forum instead of music.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 02:25 PM

When it comes to Guests - well an ISP identifier would help immensely. When one logs on their ISP is recorded. If they receive more than 10 complaints about their posting they are blocked - or their e-mail addy is made available for the Clank to bugger with. I am sure that either Max or Jon have an idea of how that might work.

It's quite ammusing that Guest spends more time in the threads he doesn't like - kind of co-opts himself.

And only if I let you Guest LMAO!!!

Steve

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 01:20 PM

Agreed.... GUEST doesnt feel he's had any impact unless he gets banned. Strange then that he is here rather than on a Site that will do that.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 10:57 PM

Guest seems to forget that this is a moderated list. There are people here who do put in a lot of thime making sure that things continue to function pretty well. Problem is they aren't the NAZIS that Guest thinks they should be.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 10:36 PM

Yes......... moderators could do it as volunteers... but AFTER the horse has left the barn and is tearing madly around the countryside? I don't think so...

I make no comment on the effectiveness of that BS: filter BTW-- just saying, we do have a thing now we can use if we choose.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 09:25 PM

Guest from Venus,

Why should it only be about what makes you happy? And, why should everyone else leave, so you can talk about whatever you want? And, anyway, what have you got to say about music that is so worthwhile?

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 09:07 PM

I don't know of any paid moderators of newsgroups and mailing lists on-line, though I'm sure some big bucks folks pay moderators of really huge groups.

But in the folk realm, it is usually volunteers who moderate, or the site owner. Once the on-topic issue is enshrined in the FAQ, along with expected behavior, it is extremely rare that there are problems. Most moderators are on cruise control, really. Only when really nasty stuff happens (ie hackers, spammers, etc), or technical problems arise (how do I unsubscribe sorts of questions) do they have to get involved. Other than that, all the moderated lists and newsgroups I've ever been in have been, the moderators are pretty transparent, and the job fairly simple once it is set up.

PS I hope the new filtering software does a better job than the above suggestion for filtering BS WYSIWYG suggests we use.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 08:45 PM

I didn't come up with that one, McGrath, I just have it stashed in my bookmarks. I think originally it was just BS and then the colon was added later to keep the wrong threads from being filtered out... "GiBSon guitars," for instance, would be screened out.

I think one of the reaons people don't always use the BS prefix is because they feel as if it says the content of the topic is BS-- a pejorative word. (I say this based on what some people said in PMs when I asked them about using it) ... and that was when I realized how important is the difference between a verb and a noun. I don't know if you have this connotation in the UK-- a verb, "to bullshit around," meaning to sort of explore and play together. But that's how I see that prefix. It doesn't mean the subject is not worthy... it means the discussion is going to be fairly informal and broad ABOUT a serious topic. Like shooting the breeze. But these two connotations seem to account for the divide over requiring its use and complying with requests to use it.

I had this funny image earlier today of Max trying to implement some of the things some of the "Guest" posters seem to want. In this image, Max was stooped over a huge monitor mounted in the top of his desk, poring over about a dozen open windows, each one containing an open thread. Pore fella was all bent from the hours and hours in the chair every day... (potty seat in the chair of course)..... people were dropping by with food cuz he was wasting away..... crazed eyes.... He wasn't combing the music threads looking for BADDDDD BS to delete though.... Nope, he was scouring the BS threads making sure they didn't contain any music, because if they did how could he delete them?

That's the "curse" of the current Mudcat system-- that music stuff just WILL not stay out of even the silliest discussions! *G* Cuz... those dang musicians just WON'T be controlled!

Then there was the idea that a moderator would pre-authorize posts before they'd be hung up to dry..... Oh yeah, I know about that kind of forum, I had one for awhile that you could set up that way. But, um, here, how many hits a day are there here and how many moderators would it take to do that, and how would you get them to agree on how to apply the rule to musicians?????

~Susan

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 08:43 PM

Guest, Venus, something no one has brought up: who is going to pay for full-time moderator/s to do all of this policing you want? Also, imo, you are making VERY broad generalisations about people whom you probably do not know very well. The people you paint with the broad BS brush could just be well-rounded individuals who are not rigid about their music. As I said elsewhere, it seems to me that GUESTs start more BS threads bitching about the Mudcat, than others. If you are so tired of it, why do you persist?

Jeri, well said.

kat

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 08:10 PM

That's clever and worked a treat WYSIWYG - got rid of all the threads labelled BS.

Only trouble is that a very high proportion of the threads that came through were still very much BS, so it doesn't solve the problem for the BS-phobes.

I'm not one of them, because I wander happily between the BS and the music ones. (And in fact there are plenty of music ones which could quite appropriately be termed BS, and a good few non-music ones where it doesn't really seem too appropriate.) But I recognise the problem of people who can't find what they are looking for in the crowd. Recognise the problem, but most of the suggested solutions really introduce what I would see as greater problems.

Myself, if there was suddenly some policy of excluding non-music threads, I'd probably spend a lot less time here. The magic music threads are always outnumbered by ones which might be formally about music, but don't have too much of an enriching quality - for example, the listing ones, "who is your favourite etc". They have their place,and you can find out people who you wouldn't have otherwise. But to trust somebody's judgement, you need to have some understanding of them, and you get as much as anything from the BS threads, I feel.

It really would make life easier if everyone made a point of labelling any thread they started, and giving it an informative subject title. But they won't. Maybe one answer is to avoid opening any thread that doesn't have a label - such as this one. It might means missing some interesting discussion and explorations, but if enough people did it, maybe some of the non-labellers would get the message. I think I'll do that.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 07:35 PM

Nerd, I was gonna make a remark about Camden, but I won't go there;-) Seriously, Camden doesn't look the same after they cleaned up Admiral Wilson Blvd for the Republican Convention--

You may know that many historic recordings were made in the old RCA studio, which, until just a few years ago, was adjecent to the foot of the Benjamin Franklin Bridge--a lot of Ralph Peer's recording was done there, so, arguably, it could have been the birthplace of country music--and of course, much more--any other part of the country would have turned it into a national monument--sorry, everyone, for the thread drift;-)

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 05:18 PM

The BS filter has been an option for a LONG time, and has been publicized often. All you need to do is set your Mudcat bookmarks to the following URLs:

http://www.mudcat.org/threadsnot.cfm?Title=BS:

http://ragtime.mudcat.org/threadsnot.cfm?Title=BS:

http://loki.mudcat.org/threadsnot.cfm?Title=BS:

Once you are in the forum page, after opening a thread you need to use that URL and the browser's GO button to re-filter the thread list. Use it also instead of the Mudcat's REFRESH button to reset the page whenever needed.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,From Venus
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 05:08 PM

Jeri,

We are pretty much in agreement. You are right in saying the member/guest log-in solved one person's stolen identity problem. I wouldn't say it solved the problem of stolen identities, though. In flame wars, guest identities get stolen and abused, just like some member's identities still do. I'm glad to see that you agree that the whole member/guest log-in thing has become such a point of contention that it does make sense to make it one or the other. I do consider that progress, considering your position at Mudcat.

As to the BS filters, well...they aren't here yet, are they? Of course it will make me happier. Will it solve the problems with BS/thread hijacking/non-music thread drift which will undoubtedly seep through the filters? I don't know, but am willing to give it a chance when it gets implemented.

Finally, no I don't get any kicks out of hindering other peoples' enjoyment. But I do wish more posters who come here mostly for non-music chat nowadays (and the volume is a whole lot more than it was when the content of Mudcat was more about music than everything else), would understand how much they hinder the enjoyment of those of us who have been coming here for music conversation for years. Rather than attacking us as whiners and spoil sports, even when we are trying to make things work better for all. Including leaving, if it makes it better and more enjoyable for the "more chat, less music" folk who are the clear majority here nowadays. I'm tired of all the incessant bickering, and the fact that nothing is changing, and that the things that annoy me/lessen my enjoyment the most seem to be increasing in popularity here. I'm too tired to fight the tide anymore. It just isn't worth it. Too negative, too non-productive, and no joy.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 04:50 PM

GUEST said this above:

" In my mind, you can either have a music forum or a BS forum, but it can't be both because the BSers will always outnumber and outgun the music people, just as we see happening here."

WRONG. I've been a member of Mudcat for 3 1/2 years. There have been BS threads and music threads coinciding for at least that long. The ONLY thing that's changed in that time is more people know about the Mudcat. But I don't see that as being dangerous - the main drawback is that there are more Flamers/Trolls to wander in, but they wander off just as quickly.To me they're like toilet paper. They sit quietly until they must do their thing and then they move on to their just reward.

TO MAX:

This is a great place. I came here for music info and stayed around because of the discussion of both music and other subject. Many of the regulars see the world through music and I feel very comfortable with that. Most of the music discussions don't interest me for various reasons, but many do. I keep visiting every day because there's usually something interesting happening.

Pax yall

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 04:46 PM

I'm almost at the point where I believe everyone should have to register before posting. (Not reading.) I never really envisioned myself feeling that way, but it's come to the point where this "elite" members vs. persecuted guest thing is SO OLD that perhaps everyone should have to be part of the "elite."

Guest, the "guest" tag did solve the stolen identity problem.

The filters Max will implement won't keep people for posting or reading anything they choose. They allow a person to self-censor what they read. They're designed to allow people to prevent themselves from seeing posts with certain terms (such as "BS:") they don't want to see. I don't believe this is an idea that will threaten anyone. Personally, I'd be happy as hell if someone like you, who hates BS, has the ability to make it go away for themself. Most of us are here primarily to enjoy ourselves, whether in music threads, BS threads, or both. The complaining by a couple of people and the thought of the possible disgruntlement of others who may not say anything about it, about what subject people talk about hinders that enjoyment for everyone. I don't find any enjoyment in the thought that anyone's unhappy, and I would hope you don't either.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,From Venus
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 04:43 PM

I just wanted to reiterate what someone else mentioned either in this thread or the other on volumes of posts here at Mudcat being a problem for some of us desiring a music-only discussion forum.

I want people who don't understand why some of us feel BS and music threads can't co-exist peacefully and get along. It is because of the volume of the BS. I don't have limitless amounts of time to spend on-line like so many here engaging in non-music chat apparently do. That makes the sheer volume created here difficult to deal with for me. Just because a thread title is a music title doesn't mean a tremendous amount of BS thread drift isn't occurring in that music thread.

Forums which are stricter about on-topic posting seem to do this sort of thing less, which makes for less time trying to wade through and find what you want to read. For some of us who are in front of computer screens all day long for our jobs, on-topic posting can be a bigger issue than to the people who are on-line for amusement and entertainment, and not to earn a living.

Hope that helps some of you understand why some of us are so vehement about the BS thing. It really does cut our on-line music discussion enjoyment to a minimum. And sometimes makes it intolerable.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 04:28 PM

I don't think courage comes into it really. I mean, what's going to happen to a labelless GUEST, if they adopt a label? All right, maybe if you are identified as being the person who uttered some opinion about some controversial subject, that might carry over into the music threads.

"That bastard thinks that euros are good/bad/interesting - so I'm going to sneer at what he or she says about banjo tuning."

Doesn't seem likely. And in any case it's easy enough using a different pseudonym for different threads, and maintain an unsullied anonymity, while exercising a modicum of courtesy towards others.

No, the only reason I am able to envisage for the practice (leaving aside the occasional time it happens accidentally) is because it's a way of blowing a raspberry at the rest of the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,From Venus
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 04:15 PM

DougR,

Having a private mailing list or moderated newsgroup doesn't have to prevent others from reading the posts. In some kinds of moderated newsgroups, one can read all the messages, but posts are reviewed by a moderator to insure the post meets the criteria of the forum, before being posted.

Some private mailing lists are archived and can be read by anyone too. Some Mudcatters seem to only be familiar with Mudcat, and don't understand just how many technical solutions really do exist to the types of problems/complaints we see regularly lodged here. It is done all the time to create a decent, reasonable atmosphere for people who don't want to put up with the volume of BS, the amount of rudeness masqueraded as "humor", and needless, pointless bickering over how a poster logs in to post here, we see ad nauseum here on Mudcat. Some of us with more extensive discussion forum experience (going back to the BBS days all the way up to the present instant messaging options), know it doesn't have to be this bad at Mudcat. There are some very simple technical solutions which, up to now, we haven't seen implemented here, for whatever reasons Max has. Particularly the member/guest log-in thing. It is a simple thing to change, and make it so everyone who wishes to post has to log-in the same way. How many stupid threads, posts, flame wars, whining about guests would that eliminate do you suppose? Wouldn't that make Mudcat a more livable place? It is pretty clear that swapping stolen identity problems for member/guest problems didn't solve much of anything for anyone, did it?

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 03:31 PM

McGrath: I agree. I think members who post controversial messages as a "Guest" simply don't have the courage of their convictions, or simply have no courage.

It still is not clear to me why the Music and BS threads cannot live in harmony. If you don't like B.S., don't tune in. I think those who are concerned only about music threads would be surprised to learn how many of us who love music, but cannot make a meaningful contribution to most music threads, read them, and enjoy them.

I think Spaw, and a few others have the right idea. If the Mudcat, as Max wants it to be, is not to your liking, start a new site that suits your needs. This is Max's site. We refer to it as our community, but we are only visitors.

DougR