What's With Live Music?

Subject: What's With Live Music?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 11:37 AM

This was raised this weekend, when I had a chance to Go Out sans kids, so I went to a club of some kind with a friend. But I found all the same reasons I never to to see music... Is this just a Me thing? I really don't LIKE live music, I tend to prefer the recording. (I'm talking concerts with an entire band here, not a single folk singer performing in public.) There is something about SEEING the sweaty people doing things that I wouldn't have known would produce those sounds. Maybe this is a holdover from when I couldn't tell the instrument from hearing the music? So I was imagining, say, violins, when it turns out to be a sax? Or the sound of an electric guitar, which sounds like nothing on earth to me? Or do I just need to get out more? I still vividly remember the horror of seeing Mick Jagger's face and having to repudiate all Rolling Stones, even songs I had hitherto liked, because I couldn't deal with the visual that then came up, willy-nilly.

The more I think about it, the more I realize this is probably limited, to a point, to music that isn't acoustic. I like live acoustic music, I've been to see the Clancy Brothers lo these many moons ago, and Doc Watson, and Georges Moustaki, and Bob Dylan, and some raggae bands, that was all OK... at least, the music was. In each and every case EXCEPT the Clancy Brothers (with Robbie O'Connell, I think), I was disappointed in the human performer (actually, Tom Clancy disappointed me too, but it was after the concert when I'd gone backstage with another rabid fan, so I can hardly blame him). But Dylan was drunk, Moustaki and Watson were seriously rude to their sound people - the raggae bands had raised no expectations so they were fine.

Perhaps this would change if I actually performed? Is there any remedial audience training available? Just wondering on other takes on this, or am I really alone in this particular weirdness?

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 12:22 PM

"Remedial audience training"? LOL!

Mrrzy, it seems to me that you're asking a couple of different questions here:

Is your lack of enjoyment of watching performers be drunk or rude "just a You thing"? Absolutely not. See the "Performers Excess Drinking at Gig" threads, for example. I'm sure there are threads about performer rudeness and its effect on audiences, too (if not, there should be!).

Is your lack of enjoyment of SEEING the sweaty people doing things that you wouldn't have known would produce those sounds "just a You thing"? ...Well, I've never actually met catspaw, so I can only imagine the unpleasant visuals that go along with the noises...*G*

But seriously, I'm sure you're not alone in your disappointment with some band performances, their appearance, their synthetic instrumentals (one of my pet peeves!), and so forth.

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 12:38 PM

One of the main problems I have when I go out to see live music (bands especially) is that IT'S ALMOST ALWAYS TOO LOUD!!! I don't know why everything has to be so over amplified. A couple of months ago I went to a small venue to see a bluegrass band. Really, the room was small enough so that no amplification should have been needed. I saw them setting up the sound equipment - huge speakers, etc. and I said to my friend "This is going to be too loud". And of course, it was. I THINK the band itself was excellent, unfortunately it was so loud that it was distorted and I couldn't tell. My ears were ringing and I couldn't understand the lyrics. That is my major complaint about live music.

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 01:03 PM

I guess I should clarify: I don't enjoy live music even when everything goes RIGHT... even if it's not too loud, or too smoky, or anything other than having live music where I can see it being made. Or when I'm not being disappointed in my idols' feet of clay. I guess I'm better off with my back to the band, in other words. And I don't think that's, well, right, or something. I feel I'm missing out...

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 01:08 PM

It depends on the venue. Stadiums where rock bands play to 80,000 fans suck unless you want to take a chance on being the victim of beer and vomitus spillage, or you want to be part of the "crush."

But clubs which range in size from a capacity of 500-5000 occupants are great venues for seeing live performances.

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: CapriUni
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 01:15 PM

Mrrzy --

I don't know if you're alone, but generally, I tend to like live performance.

I say "generally" because there are a few qualifications that temper my pleasure:

I, too, only like aoustic music (folk and classical), and even then, it depends on the venue. If the acoustics are bad, it grates on my nerves as much as fingernails on a chalkboard, and a recording, which was done in a studio and carefully tweaked by technicians during and after, doesn't have any of those problems. Also, as I use a wheelchair, I often get placed in a "special seating area" which often used to be right next to the stage (trans.: right next to the speakers, and also having to crane neck to see what is going on on stage).

What I like about live performce most, that I never get from a recording, is the exchange that occurs between the audience and the performer -- like a conversation. And it's not just singing or clapping along, either, but the emotional energy, expressed by the performer, felt, and reacted to, by the audience, the performer feeling that response and weaving it back into the performance -- like the weft of a cloth going back and forth across the warp of the performance, creating a tapestry of experience.

I suppose this comes through most clearly in folk performances, rather than elaborately staged rock "shows" (such as done by the Rolling Stones), where the crowds are so huge, and each event on stage is carefully choreographed before hand. But as I've never been to a rock concert, I wouldn't know...

If the performer is drunk (as in Dylan's case) or rude (as with Watson and Moustaki), then that means that they're not open to the emotions of those around them, and it then you wouldn't get that energy exchange. If I were at a concert like that, I'd probably feel that the performance was done at me, rather than for or with me, and if that were the case, I'd want to go home, too. But I think that would be a failing of the individual performer rather than live music itself.

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: little john cameron
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 01:23 PM

TOO LOUD,TOO LOUD,TOO LOUD. LJC

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: CapriUni
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 01:40 PM

Mrrzy:

"I guess I should clarify: I don't enjoy live music even when everything goes RIGHT..."

Hmmm... Sounds to me like an expectation problem. My high school math teacher came up with this formula: "Satifaction = Reality / Expectation". If, for example, your expectation was given a value of 10, and the reality only came up to 3, your level of satifaction is going to be 0.3, when "it was okay" = 1.0.

When you listen to recorded music, you have the perfectly balanced music and voices filling your home, without any of the sweaty, breathing, clumsy bodies that go with it (I know you don't believe in angels, so this next bit comes with tongue firmly planted in cheek), almost like the songs of angels -- or at least, perfect human beings. When you come face to face with the reality, you're disapointed.

Or could it be that you feel hemmed in by the audience -- if, for example, you sense that others around you don't have the same reaction to the music that you do, that 'interupts' your pleasure?

If you want to get over this feeling, maybe you could try taking part in a friend's informal song gathering at their home... taking part with 'live' music not as a performance, but as just something nice to do together, as friends.

Maybe that would temper your expections of a 'real' performance.

Just a thought.

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: SeanM
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 02:02 PM

There's nothing wrong with you.

You don't like live performances. Doesn't matter WHY, just that you don't like them.

I don't like tomatoes. To each their own.

Now if you start having panic attacks when someone mentions a live performance, THEN you may need help.

Until then, support the music however you care to. Just because you might not happen to like seeing a perfomance live isn't going to make you less of a person or them less of a performer.

M

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 02:37 PM

SeanM: You don't like any tomatoes? Or do you just not like the varieties you've tried? (There are many varieties, y'know, with different flavors, in varying degrees of sweetness or acidity!)

I mention this only because Mrrzy doesn't like the live bands she's heard so far. If she finds one whose live performance is to her taste, who knows – she might become a groupie!

In the meantime, Mrrzy, you don't have to force or "train" yourself to watch or listen to a performance you don't like. Just try something else and see if you enjoy it! The house-concert idea sounds like a viable alternative; why not check it out? Also, what about outdoor folk-festival stage performances as opposed to clubs?

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 02:50 PM

I don't really much like to go see a lot of the music that I like to listen to--rock/pop music, especially--part of the reason for that is that most of the concerts are put together to recreate the sound of a recording--

The Rolling Stones are particularly big offenders in this area--their records sounded great(at least for the first eight or nine years), but Mick Jagger's real singing voice is very very, very ordinary, he is not much of a dancer, and his stage presence is on the level of Madonna(NOT A COMPLIMENT)--his strutting and posturing is a bit embarassing(especially as he has gotten older)--and so it goes--

I loved Peter Gabriel til I saw him in concert, and it has taken me about eleven years to get over that--

"Folk"performers tend to give theri best to the audience--and it is often true that even very good recordings don't convey what comes across in concert--

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: swirlygirl
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 04:14 PM

I LOVE live music!!

I'd much rather go and see it be done than hear it blindly...I love it when things go wrong, different versions are performed, song are slightly altered, you hear new songs that aren't recorded yet...I love it all!!

Most bands/performers I like tend to come across better live...you get to see how they react to the songs they've written and the emotion that goes along with the performance...

You get the patter between, and sometimes in, songs that can make or break a performance...there's the crowd atmosphere, the sweat, oh I love all of it!!

:)

xxx

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 05:10 PM

Swirlygirl says, "Most bands/performers I like tend to come across better live...you get to see how they react to the songs they've written..."

Welllllll...... you get to see the reactions they've rehearsed for the stage performance, the act they put on gig after gig after gig after gig ad nauseum. If the audience really got to see, for example, how Eric Clapton reacts to "Tears in Heaven", he'd be too overwrought with grief for his dead little boy to perform the song at all. But being the professional performer that he is, he can sing that song over and over and over again without breaking down.

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 06:56 PM

Sounds to me Mrrzy is seeing the wrong kind of live music, the show business and rock and roll end of it, big concerts and big performances, and big egoes and all that stuff.

That's not what folk music is about, except peripherally, and that's what's special about it.

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: Burke
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 07:07 PM

I like my music live. That's almost always a local acoustic venue or a festival of some kind. I can't speak to bars or stadiums. I like to buy 'recorded live' recordings to help bring back the concert experience.

Listening to a recording is pretty much a pure musical experience. There are lots of chances to fix mistakes. There is a lot that goes into the production that can't really be done live onstage.

Going to a live performance is going to a show. It helps a lot if the music is good, but that's only part of it. How much you enjoy it depends on how good the performance is, what the venue is like, what the audience is like, etc. I can think of some people who do a great show & I don't even particularly like thier music. The good ones are reacting to their audience, or are good enough to make you think they are. OTOH there are people who put out great recordings, but aren't very entertaining as live performers. Some are in between for me, entertaining both live & recorded but in different ways.

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 09:00 PM

maybe the difference between beinga musician and a performer...?

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 03:48 AM

I agree with McGrath. The important thing about folk music to me is the live sessions. I often wonder why I buy tickets for festivals as I'm more likely to be off site in a nearby pub session. If your main interest in the folk scene is going to some of the big, over-amplified concerts, then I agree you might as well listen to records. I'll make an exception for ceilidhs though, it's fun to dance to some of the big bands and top callers (but even then it's often much too load). I'd much rather hear my folk music in the surroundings that really suit it a Pub.

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: GUEST,swirlygirl
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 08:47 AM

Well Sharon A being abig Tori Amos fan I beg to differ...

Tori always puts stuff into her songs and each time she does a song it takes on a whole new meaning and can be on a whole different emotional level...

For example, i've seen and heard her do Playboy Mommy loads and each time the emotions are different, some happy at now having a kid, some utterly distraught tears and all at having three miscarriages, and some somewhere in between...

Maybe the performers you speak of have an act, so maybe you're going to see all the wrong performers...

Maybe that's why I don't like Eric Clapton.

:)

xxx

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 08:51 AM

I'm pretty much the same as you Dave and I get far more out of participating in a session than I do out of listening.

When I listen, I also like small venues - a pub is perfect but I also like other small and more informal venues and never bother with big concerts as I get little out of them - the negatives such as me not particularly enjoying being in large crowds, feelings of being restricted in seated theatres, etc. can at times be greater than any enjoyment I get out of the performance.

Providing I'm comfortable in the venue, I prefer the "this is how it is now and this is how they sound" to the typically highly polished studio recordings and ,within limits, have nothing against the occasional mistake, hiccup in the system or whatever - in fact it makes the whole thing more human to me. There is also the act's own "presence" which is something a recording can not give (OK there are live recordings but it's not the same as actually being there and being "involved").

Jon

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: GUEST,swirlygirl
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 08:57 AM

You're far too cynical Sharon A...

:)

xxx

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: Grab
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 09:10 AM

My best memory of a non-acoustic gig is Chris Rea live. God that man's a great slide guitarist - "Road to hell" live was amazing.

Recordings are a sanitised single version of a song. You listen to it a few times, you know every note that's coming next. But you hear someone play it live, you'll get a slightly different version of it, or maybe a completely different version when the lead musicians hit their stride in the solos. It depends if you want to be safe with music whose every note you know, or if you're OK with taking a chance and hear the musicians expressing themselves.

Your examples all seem to just be saying that you don't like _bad_ live performances - Jagger strutting around stage, the others simply unprofessional. Sure, if the stage show has been made a major part of the gig then you've a right to be disappointed, and if the musicians are bad (Michael Stipe of REM is possibly the worst singer I've ever heard) then you've a right to be disappointed. But if you've come for the music, and the performers know that they just need to play the music, then no-one need go home unhappy.

Graham.

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 09:20 AM

I think I heard something different in the origional comment than the rest of you did. For a couple of decades I've suspected that the recording industry has been making life tough for new live performers. Every time someone plays a song in a live setting, they're in competition with every recorded version of that song the audience has heard. The recordings may not be any BETTER, but you can bet your ass no-one in a live audience will be seated next to the microphone. No-one listening to a recording at home has to put up with that fool at the next table or the stinks in the room. And remember, studios always have better equipment than what most musicians can afford.

It seems there are three problems: Unrealistic expectations caused by studio recordings, a dislike of most live venues, and a dislike of most portable sound systems. Choose the situation carefully and you should have a good time.

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: SharonA
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 10:20 AM

Swirlygirl says I'm far too cynical. I say, who don't know THAT?!?! *BG*

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 10:30 AM

Tori Amos is one of those who refers to her music and show as "The Product", I worked on a major venue multiple bill concert a number of years ago, featuring her, among others, and I can assure you, her show is planned and polished--everything happens exactly the way it was rehearsed--because she wants to give her fans the very best, every time--

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: SharonA
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 11:55 AM

Thanks, M Ted. I feel vindicated! ;^)

Seriously, though, that's what I was trying to say. Rehearsal and polishing of the performance of a song allow the different layers of meaning in the lyrics to be conveyed to the audience without overwhelming the songwriter. What you see and hear songwriters do on stage is just a hint of "how they react" to what they've written. What you don't see is what they go through in private when a gut-spilling song is first sung aloud, or in the room where the song is first heard and cried over by close friends, or in revision where those personally-meaningful lines are altered or deleted, or in rehearsal where the writer steels himself to spill his guts in song 135 times in 137 nights without having a nervous breakdown.

I didn't mean to say that a songwriter always performs his song in exactly the same way every time. I do mean to say that it takes a lot of work – and a lot of acting skill – to keep a performance fresh and alive without burning out emotionally. The same is true for Broadway musical singers, and for stage and screen actors. It's a matter of being "in character" and keeping that character or persona separate from the off-stage person, in order to preserve and protect the integrity of one's innermost self.

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: swirlygirl
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 03:12 PM

I'm not saying she doesn't rehearse...far from it...of course she want sto give her fans what they deserve, but there has to be a certain level of emotion on the night, certain things that you put into the song, evoked memories that pop up when you least expect it that all go into that performance, and each situation and each show in each different place will evoke different things.

Some of you guys must have seen people more than once, either on a particular tour or over time and seen how different each performance is...

:)

xxx

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: SharonA
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 03:32 PM

Well, I'm certainly willing to go see this phenomenon for myself, and make my own judgment, but I went to the toriamos.com site and the tour schedule there hasn't been updated past last month. Swirlygirl, ya got any links to a site with better info?

Sharon

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: swirlygirl
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 03:59 PM

Tori.com is rubbish! Never updated!

Check out the Dent www.the dent.com (no time for clicky as I'm off to watch a thing about Peru!) It's updated all the time even with some utterly stupid stuff but let Mike Why to his hobby and all that...

She probably won't be touring until September cos she should have a new CD out by then...

And it's not just Tori...just about all bands perform songs differently each night or each time they tour..

:)

xxx

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: swirlygirl
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 04:02 PM

Tori.com is rubbish! Never updated!

Check out the Dent www.the dent.com (no time for clicky as I'm off to watch a thing about Peru!) It's updated all the time even with some utterly stupid stuff but let Mike Why to his hobby and all that...

She probably won't be touring until September cos she should have a new CD out by then...

And it's not just Tori...just about all bands perform songs differently each night or each time they tour..

:)

xxx

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 06:03 PM

Well, if you like her music, she does a nice show, but Billie Holiday, she ain't--

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: Sorcha
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 06:20 PM

Several things here, indeed. I do like live music with the right performer/venue. I do NOT like Staged Shows no matter who is doing them.

I prefer the "un-rehearsed" feeling where the performer is responding to the audience.......and what the audience seems to want as opposed to written in stone Set Lists.

Most usually, that means pubs, house concerts, etc. but I have also seen John McCutcheon and Tom Chapin play to a packed house (what, BillD, 7,000 on the main stage??) at Winfield, and they are able to maintain that "small venue" feeling.

I would never, ever go to a Stadium Concert.....I hate crowds and I really like to be able to hear the music being played---not the screaming from 80,000 people.

I also remember hearing Colcannon (a Front Range Irish band) at Winfield......they "played" the audience quite well and I thought I liked them. Several years later they were here in Our Town for an Arts Council concert. Large hall, small audience. Talk about booooooooorrrrrrrrriiiiinnng. They are the only Irish band I have ever heard that could just not generate any energy at all, even with audience response. Everything sounded the same. No bounce, no life, if you get my meaning.

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: SharonA
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 06:42 PM

So, Mrrzy, is any of this helping?

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: Burke
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 07:12 PM

I don't see why there has to be an either/or.

When I go to a performance I expect the group or individual to have a set list. I've seen too many who want to 'go with the flow' waste time deciding what to do next. OTOH, I also hope they will be open to requests & be responding to their audience. Getting all confused when departing from the list is not good either.

If they tell stories & jokes they should know how to tell them. That may mean they've told them before. I like these a lot better than most of the tired old too-ning jokes.

A really good performer can have a plan, go with the audience & make it all feel spontaneous. If the performer is putting on an 'act' in terms of being something they are not, it probably will not work. If what they do comes from their basic personality & is 'real', the on & off script stuff can flow pretty seamlessly. Christine Lavin can do this. I also love Cheryl Wheeler's performances.

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 09:52 PM

I was just talking about this subject with my father the other day... Well, I prefer live music to recordings. And I've only ever been to one really disappointing concert in my life (thanks, Megadeth). Loud-mouthed drunks/stoned teenagers with lightsticks can be annoying, of course, but they've never really ruined my concert experience, so far.

For me, music doesn't feel complete without the visual component. I love to see where the music is actually coming from. I noticed recently that almost all the music I listen to on cd is music that I can't see (artist long dead, doesn't tour here, etc) or haven't yet seen live. Once I've seen a band play live (especially if I've seen them many times), their cds gather dust, no matter how much I love their music.

Weird.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: Melani
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 01:39 AM

Most of the live music I see nowadays is performed by people I know, or by people who know people I know, so I tend to enjoy it for that reason. The audience can account for a lot of the ambience, too--if they're a bunch of loudmouthed jerks, even the greatest performers don't have much of a chance, even, or especially, if the room is small and intimate.

Also, some performers are better at live shows than others. I have seen Gordon Bok twice live--once in a great big hall at a festival, and once aboard our own much smaller BALCLUTHA. In both cases, the audience was riveted to every note.

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: Amergin
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 01:47 AM

I love live music...I love recorded music, too...cause then I get to know the songs...but it does not take a candle to the real deal....There is a sort of chemistry between the performers and the audience that creates a certian type of magic...I have seen thousands of people singing along and dancing to Chuck Berry....I have heard hundreds sing accompanied only by Peter Yarrow's guitar....I have seen folks stand in line for Jez Lowe's autograph...especially since most of them (me included) had never heard him before...only about him....I have seen Andy M. Stewart and Gerry O'Beirne mingle with the crowd before and after and in between sets....There is a sort of magic to it...a kind of magic that is addicting...and that is what I like about being up there on the stage...singing or reciting to people....more addicting than any drug I have ever tried....and more fun too....

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: GUEST,swirlygirl
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 08:46 AM

"We really don't know what the show's going to be that night; I sneak around behind curtains and get a vibe of the audience and the city I'm in." -Tori Amos -MTV.com/VH1.com interview, October 5, 2001

You just can't beat a sweaty intense atmosphere of anticipation waiting for someone to come onstage (that's the only bad thing about Tori gigs...too much sitting down)...and then when they do come on...it's the culmination of all those things...waiting...drinking...chatting...excitement...cos you get to see someone in the flesh...

Can't understand anyone not liking it...my mum complains if music's too loud, but I did take her to see Status Quo - don't ask, she likes them - and she loved it...even though it might have beena bit loud for her and she had her hands over her ears to dampen the sound at times!! But she'd go again...

:)

xxx

Subject: RE: What's With Live Music?
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 07:08 PM

What she says to MTV and what she does are two different things--