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BS: Why is the UK in such a mess?
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Subject: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 02 - 06:53 AM We are one of the richest countries in the world, and yet our transport system is crap (our trains don't run on time, if at all, we have the worst roads in europe, but the highest road taxes).The health service seems to be getting worse all the time, (hospital waiting lists are now at their highest since records began, we still have people dying in hospital corridors, junior doctors are still doing 120 hours a week, if a factory worker does more than 48 it is illegal!, nuses are leaving the health service to work in shops, we are sending English patients to France because UK hospitals cannot cope,) This government has been in power for a few years now but things don't seem any better, if France & Germany can organise things properley why can't the UK? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 06 Feb 02 - 07:10 AM Simple answer: Because we are utterly seduced by always having lower taxes.
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,Tony Blair Date: 06 Feb 02 - 07:20 AM As I see it Mr Hull you've got two choces. Firstly, you can decide what YOU would do about things. Work out a set of cogent, coherent policies and, at the next election - or sooner if your policies attract such attention that they arouse the public to register a vote of no confidence in my Government - stand against me and the leaders of the other political parties. Secondly, you can sod off to some other country where things are better. You mention France and Germany. Planes leave from most UK airports. Flights can be had quite cheaply via the internet. I'll lend you a few quid if you're a bit light at the minute! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: pavane Date: 06 Feb 02 - 07:27 AM Lower taxes have nothing to do with it. The problem is a Labour government deciding that they know better than you what you want, and how to spend YOUR money. Fact 1 If you pay a private company, it gets all the money. If you pay the government, it costs them 20% to collect it. Yes, one FIFTH of all they collect in income tax is wasted on tax collectors. Out of 400 bn, that makes 80 billion pounds. Does that sound like a good bargain? So inflate everything they say by 25% to see what it is costing YOU. Fact 2 Every time Labour have previously been in power, they have mucked it up so badly that they were voted out after one term. Who devalued the 'pound in your pocket'? Re the NHS, what private firm could get away with saying THEY decide IF and when you may get the services for which you have ALREADY paid? And that if you started treatment elsewhere, they may reject you? This has been compared with Sainsburys refusing to serve you because you have done some shopping in Tescos. Whatever happened to 'To each according to his need'? Plenty more to say,but no time!
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 02 - 07:30 AM Tony Blair-I think you are crap, and you talk too much, and you are harldy ever in the UK anyway, why are you in africa? You can lend me a few quid though, send it too 35 Chanterlands Avenue, Hull, HU5 3TG.Cheers.john |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST Date: 06 Feb 02 - 07:33 AM Whatever happened to 'To each according to his need'? It's been tried and it simply doesn't work |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Zipster Date: 06 Feb 02 - 07:34 AM Aye you can send as many English patients as you like to France, the more the merrier. lol |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST Date: 06 Feb 02 - 07:45 AM Pavene, You say that: one FIFTH of all they [the government]collect in income tax is wasted on tax collectors Do you have any facts to back that up, please? Or did you just make it up? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Skipjack K8 Date: 06 Feb 02 - 07:46 AM George Burns had it in as few words as possible. "Too bad the people who really know how to run the country are too busy driving taxis and cutting hair" So John, I have to go with Tony on this one and you have to choose between a successful election campaign, or continuing in nutrition logistics. Skipjack |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:00 AM To my mind, anyone who blames everything on a Labour govenment, or for that matter a Tory government is being naive in the extreme. Lets be honest, for a moment. Governing a country isn't easy. There are countless and conflicting calls as to how best spend a limited pot of money. A government cannot win with everyone. Ever. To simply say; "everything is Tony Blair's fault" shows a total lack of insight. For Labour to say that everything that's wrong is the Tories fault is equally stupid. Pavene, you say that it has nothing to do with taxes. In so far as John's original point regarding hospital waiting lists etc is concerned, then I'd respectfully say that it has. France, Germany etc. spend a far greater amount on health than we do, and guess what, their services are better. I'm sticking by my original post. Here in the UK we expect everything to be wonderful whilst never having to dig in our own pockets to pay for it. To my mind, that is the fundamental problem Paul
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:10 AM The problem as I see it is people abusing the system... The NHS was not designed to deal with the amount of alcohol/drugs/other self-inflicted things that it has to and these now make up the majority of their cases/patients. We have the whole gamut of people who are stuck in the rut of welfare and can't get out of it because it's been made too easy for them to live on it. The government should have all these people back in the lower paid jobs and simply supplement the income rather than just pay them more to be unemployed. That way people learn new skills, both social and technical, and also raise their own self-esteem thus leading them possibly into better, more well-paid jobs if possible. We have far too many people going to university for no real reason because the government want everyone to go, not realising that there are many other worthwhile things that people could be doing, so there's no money there and I'd estimate that about 50-60% never use their degrees for anything. But then again we have no industry anymore so why would we need people who can do useful things like shipbuilders, joiners, plumbers etc... Too many people have kids who don't think about it first, and how it will affect them and how they will affect the kids. There's a lack of interest among parents to spend time with their kids so we have a generation of self-parenting young uns...not good... Oh a whole host of things...don't get me started... Basically it boils down to people wanting to take and be given but not give any back... We need to start being a bit more dictatorial...all of this rubbish about "the people know best what they want" is nonsense. If everyone was left to decide what they needed and wanted then the UK would be in a worse state than it is now. We need to dump PC shite, start thinking for the good of all, rather than for minorities over the needs of the many, and generally lay down some sort of social rule that punishes the bad and rewards the good. Man is technically and animal after all and i don't think we've made it to the stage yet where we can be trusted to be sensible about things... There is tremendous inequality in society, more and more of it coming about by people fighting for the disadvantaged (which is not a bad thing) to the detriment of your ordinary working class man/family who make up the backbone of this country...
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,Jeremy Paxman Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:17 AM Well ... that's it! I'm giving up journalism to be Swirlygirl's election agent. I can see it now ... Swirlygirl taking questions from JohnfromHull at PM's question time ... (Slight hint of the Daily Mail about some of your rantings above, surlygirl. Never mind. The hustings will knock some of your rough edges off!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:18 AM swirlygirl, Some fair points. However, if I was to suggest that you shouldn'd have been allowed to go to University, or should take a job washing dishes because you'd had a really difficult time for a few months, I doubt you'd agree. At your age, I thought very much along those lines, thought that people who had 'lost it' should 'get a grip' etc. 10 years on, having gone through an awful time personally, I tend to be a little more compassionate. Paul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:20 AM Sounds like Canada to me...we all have too many rights and not many responsibilities |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,Sorry for stating the obvious ... Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:24 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: The Walrus at work Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:24 AM One major problem is "Short term-ism" (appalling phrase!). Governments in general plan on the basis that they will be in power for one term (two at most) and, as any incoming government automatically claims the credit for any benifits which occur during their term - even if they had nothing to do with it - (and likewise, blame their predecessors for any failures<1>) and, as no politician likes to give their opponents a political gift. ALL governments plan only over a three (at most four) year period, anything longer, no matter what the outcome would be, is automatically discarded. Walrus <1> This is true of all governments, regardless of party. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,Sorry for stating the obvious ... Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:28 AM but ... if you think the UK's in a mess then just thank the Lord that you don't live in somewhere like ... um, let's see ... Afghanistan? ... Somalia? ... Lebanon? In other words ... get real. Stop whinging. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:43 AM Swirly, the more I read your postings, the more I like your attitude. Why don't you forget about EJ and come over here to the States? I would make you happy .... Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:51 AM Jeez, Murray, You're starting to sound like some of the jerks on Yahoo!Chat. Believe me that is NOT a good thing
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:53 AM Well Paul M I always planned on doing something with my degree...I just think that there are many things that people might like to be doing, like learning proper trades, apprenticeships and the like, but there's a stigma attached to them now cos they're deemed to be "no brainer" jobs. The government has put so much emphasis on university education at the expense of other things. A balance needs to be struck you know... And society will always need dishwashers and if i was unemployed and that's what it took to get me back on my feet and back into society then i'd do it. christ i worked as a skivvy for Celtic Football Club long enough! I know some people have problems and yes they should be sorted out, but not at the expense of society as a whole. Why should inmates of prisons get free education, yet a kid has to pay? Why should alcoholics get extra money in their benefits? I'm sorry, but it's just not right and there's a lot of people much older than me who have the same views.... Murray, where you from in the US and I might consider it??!! But then you guys don't have a welfare state at all really and that's something i don't agree with... And "sorry for stating the obvious"..if everyone tried to sort out a bit of what was around them then the world might actually get its shit together. Charity begins at home...Afghanistan is not my immediate problem though I'd do what I can to help, but sorting out the people here is my first priority... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Skipjack K8 Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:54 AM ...... if the jodphurs fit ........... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:58 AM swirlygirl said: Why should alcoholics get extra money in their benefits? I was unaware that this was the case. Do you have any facts to back that up? Or was it something that the Daily Mail made up? Paul
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:12 AM Sorry if my jocular little interjection was misconstrued as an inappropriate come-on, GUEST, Swirlygirl and I have had light-hearted altercations here before, I knew she wouldn't take it amiss. Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:23 AM Paul M...my mum used to do lots of voluntary work for our local council and discovered lots and lots of interesting things that I bet half of the population doesn't know about... You also know that there are homeless people who have been offered houses, grants to furnish them, that's grants, not loans, and wouldn't accept...excuses given ranging from "don't like the area...who would want to live there" to the usual "think of the money I'd lose"... I could enlighten you all but then I'd have to kill you! Just a bit disillusioned with how hard my life is for always working, getting education I can use to benefit society, and getting fuck all for it...in loads of debt... How can people justify paying wine brokers £50,000 a year when radiographers get a mere £16,000 most of the time? It's all wrong and the soooner ordinary people like me start standing up for ourselves the better. :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:30 AM GUEST I actually did meet EJ online...not intentionally...wasn't looking for a bloke...it just kinda happened and now we would be living in domestic bliss if only we could be living in the same goddamn city!! :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:32 AM I'm sorry swirlygirl, But saying: my mum used to do lots of voluntary work for our local council and discovered lots and lots of interesting things is hardly hard evidence for suggesting that alcoholics get get extra money in their benefits, is it? If you've got some reasonable evidence, I'd like to here it. If not please desist from propogating nonsense. Thank you Paul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:33 AM Swirlygirl-I agree with most of the points you make, however I dont feel it is a good idea to compare wages whilst I agree it seems somewhat unfair that useful jobs dont seem as well paid as others, for example I bring home more money than a firefigher, but what kind of mess would the NHS be in if we paid radiographers 50,000 pounds pa?! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,Daily Mail Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:40 AM PaulM I don't see why you should let facts be the arbiter of who governs us and how when a bit of emotionally charged, spurious, anecdotal bollocks from us (and our apologists) is much more effective at helping people get a handle on the big issues. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: kendall Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:40 AM I dont know about the homeless in the UK, but, I can speak about it here in Portland Maine. There was a time when there was plenty of affordable housing here, then Urban Renewable came along,they tore down all those places to put up fancy office buildings. The people who were dis placed had nowhere to go, so, they are homeless. Ronald Raygun had the crust to say that they are homeless because they CHOOSE to be on the streets! Remember the republican vegetable, Ketchup? Today, only 7% of rental units are vacant in Portland Maine, and, rents are out of sight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:42 AM I bring home more money than a firefighter Is that because of your extra benefits, John ? Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:45 AM Sorry, there should be a smiley there, that was a joke, as I am sure John knows Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,Applause! Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:45 AM Nice post Kendall ... and I'll bet you didn't facbricate the statistic you use to back up your view. Unlike some of the spurious nonsense above! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:46 AM One thing that annoys me is money been wasted on what can only be described as shite, eg the millenium dome (cost = somewhere aproaching 1 billion pounds!), whilst cancer patients are refused expensive drugs because their doctors say they are too expensive.Another example of this kind of PC money wasting crap =Humberside Police Force have decided to employ a poet, to write poems with the young tearaways around here! Have you ever heard anything so bloody ridiculous? Another example=Hull City Council have just spent 1/2 a million pounds refurbishing the city morturay, they are knocking it down later this year, and moving over to the hospital site (Hull Royal Infirmary), these are just 2 examples of stupid money wasting, that I know of localy, there must be hundreds around the country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:51 AM Hull City Council have just spent 1/2 a million pounds refurbishing the city mortuary I appreciate your grave concern, John, but personally I think it's a dead nice thing to do .... Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:51 AM Ok, so Pavene and swirlygirl both seem to have solutions. Both make inaccurate and unsubstantiated comments. When challenged on these, both disappear! Heck, maybe they should be MPs Paul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:52 AM Well I'm sure there's be a hell of a lot more nurses and doctors if we paid them a bit more don't you?? I'll put a more detailed post up tonight when I get back from work...from my pittance paid job! Oh and just because I'm not producing any hard statistics at the minute doesn't mean my posts are "spurious". I'm not saying there aren't genuine people out there...I'm just saying that the people who aren't genuine get more for it... :) xxx P.S. I do it for the love of it, not the money. As long as I have enough money to get by I'm fine. Not greedy me... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:52 AM Murray-I recently received a tax form asking me to declare all my income including tips, benfits, perks, etc.I was going to put "I recieve none of the above", but decided to ignore the form, this was a bad move! The tax people have started to hassle me" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Dave Wynn Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:55 AM Careful Swirly....Acoholism is not self inflicted. You become one and it should be considered a condition. Just like we would have to refuse to treat sports injuries (self inflicted). Any injury as a result of your own bad driving (self inflicted). The list is long and I won't bore you with truth. Live a little and pick up some compassion on the way. Spot |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:56 AM Swirly girl-Become a black cab driver or a used car dealer, you will earn loads of money.john |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:57 AM Fair enough, swirlygirl. If you can produce some facts to support your earlier statements, fine. If not, please have the good grace to withdraw them and admit that you made a mistake. Paul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 06 Feb 02 - 10:09 AM So why don't I get any extra money then for only having one hand? Surely I count as disabled? Fair's fair..wasn't my fault I was born like that...just like you say it's not the alcoholic's fault... Might start my own minority group...get more money that way, I would, rather than just getting on with it and dealing with it. Where was my free counselling to get over my problems? :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 06 Feb 02 - 10:13 AM I assume by your reply that you have no facts to support your earlier assertions? Paul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 06 Feb 02 - 10:25 AM And you have all the facts Paul M? I'm at work...what do you want me to do? Take an hour off and find the facts for you right now? Bit impatient aren't we...didn't we read the "short-termism" post earlier...some things take time... And please come up with a better argument than my age...I'm an adult Paul M...will be 25 soon...not a kid anymore...have lived in council housing estate and lived through problems of a deprived area with a mum and dad who had to work zillions of hours just to have enough money so that us kids wouldn't want for anything, yet the majority of kids I went to school with, coming from a deprived area and all, had parents who didn't work, and the kids weren't planning on working either and you know...lots of them aren't from what I hear of them nowadays. I'm from a working class family Paul that's had all th eusual deaths, alcoholism, divorce etc...so don't tell me that I don't understand things cos I'm young...I'm sure there's plenty of things you don't understand cos you've never been there...all we can do is try though... It's just that some of us thought that sitting round feeling sorry for ourselves and expecting to be given was not the way forward... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,Sledge Date: 06 Feb 02 - 10:34 AM At the risk of sounding judgemental (so what) PaulM has got himself a single issue subject and continues to beat swirly girl over the head with it, OK so you've asked for clarification but how many times do you have to do that to make yourself look oh so clever, sounds too much like a real politico to me. Stuart |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 06 Feb 02 - 10:42 AM Thanks Stuart... Sledge...very appropriate...hitting over head...hammer...sledge...oh never mind! Paul M obviously thinks I have all the answers and that my magicking up of the facts will make everything ok... I just want a nice life where things are a bit fairer. I don't expect a magical idealistic fairy tale land...I just want the people who deserve to get on to get on... I want everyone to have sufficient opportunity to get on and it's then up to them whether they take it or not, but some people have the oopportunity NOW and don't. You make your own choices in life, albeit fate steps in sometimes and makes it a bit harder, but it's still your choice to an extent. Oh I could go on for hours but then I'd start sounding like some confused right-wing-wanting-to-be-a-leftie-possibly-but-I-really-am-a-leftie person!! Licensing to have children that's what I want!!! :) xxx
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 06 Feb 02 - 11:31 AM All I'm asking is that you back up your 'facts' with something, rather that expect me to believe any arguements you choose to pull out of thin air. If that makes me a sound like 'a real politico' so be it. You said that alcoholics get extra money in their benefits I questioned that. Yet you have neither put forward any evidence for it, or admitted that you are wrong. I could go on for hours but then I'd start sounding like some confused.. I think you already have... Kind regards Paul
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: sledge Date: 06 Feb 02 - 11:36 AM If endless repitions the way ahead: "you've asked for clarification but how many times do you have to do that to make yourself look oh so clever" Sledge |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 02 - 11:41 AM What's this extra money called? I don'y claim any benefit at the moment, so obviously would not qualify.I have in the past had to claim unemployment benefit and I am sure I can't remember seeing anything on the claim forms for a beer allowance or anything similar, though it would have been useful at the time! I can just imagine it= 1 Are you alcoholic? if yes go to 2 2 Do you want to claim your beer allowance 3 Sign Here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Feb 02 - 11:54 AM Basically because we get diverted into fighting among ourselves while the fat cats concentrate on sorting out thing for themselves, and bribe us and bluff us into neglecting everything that isn't short-term. And because we think that putting a cross in a box every few years, or not putting a cross in a box is all that is needed of a good citizen.
The best lack all conviction while the worst
I don't think it's nonsense for a city to employ a poet to work with young people. A good enough poet, anyway - which it probably wouldn't be, given the kind of people who would make the choice.
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 06 Feb 02 - 12:01 PM Yo are becoming quite the wit, John ! Paul, I don't see why it is necessary to nitpick about alcoholics' extra benefits. Swirly's whole point is that there is a substantial number of people claiming benefits who are perfectly capable of doing a day's work, but don't. Not all people claiming benefits are playing the system but many do. Everybody knows this is the case, but as soon as the fact is voiced, the Pavlovian shrieks of the left are heard loud and clear. I too, like Swirly, came from a working class background and lived for years in a council estate, one of the most notorious in Scotland, so please, don't any ivory tower inhabitant start telling me what does and does not happen under the British welfare system. Murray |