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BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls?
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Subject: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Fortunato Date: 08 Feb 02 - 08:36 AM The other night we were in a song circle of friends, and a person who I've known for years, but seldom see, did something that offended me greatly. While we sang, with the circle, a romantic country waltz, she went about to some of her closer friends and arranged a 'joke'. During the last chorus of our song they began to howl like dogs. They continued through the chorus until we finished the song. We felt embarrassed and offended. I told the person "Don't ever !@#$%^& do that to me again. We left for the evening. Do you think I was wrong to be offended? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: GUEST Date: 08 Feb 02 - 08:37 AM Yes, chill out a bit |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Gervase Date: 08 Feb 02 - 08:40 AM Certainly not Chance! What your friend did was insensitive and inappropriate. It wasn't as if you'd inflicted a song on her in the middle of a dinner party of something - it was a song circle. Imagine if she'd been at a poetry reading, declaiming some sentimental and moving verse in all seriousness and you got out a large spotted handkerchief and started sniffling and howling in a piss-taking way. She'd have been pissed off with that, so there's no reason why you shouldn't feel miffed at her childish 'joke'. As to how the bury the hatchet (other than in the back of her head :^) ), I don't know... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 08 Feb 02 - 08:42 AM I would want to know why she would do such a thing. Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Jeri Date: 08 Feb 02 - 08:49 AM Chance, I'd bet they were just been being silly and had no idea it would offend anyone. Maybe they were dogs, maybe they were coyotes howling romantically in the distance. I don't get offended by silliness very often, but I do get upset when I think someone's being mean. (Too bad you hadn't had a bucket of water to throw on 'em.) 'Course it's possible to get offended by other people's silliness if you're not feeling particularly silly, but there are usually no bad intentions on either side, just folks in different frames of mind. It would be bad to lose friends over such a circumstance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: mooman Date: 08 Feb 02 - 08:51 AM Dear Fortunato, On a "bad hair day" I would probably (and have in the past when insulted or "fenced out" at a session) done the same as you. On a "medium hair day", I would have been annoyed as well but would probably have stated my feelings calmly and firmly but stayed on (which I have also done in the past). On a "good hair day", I would have tried to see the funny side of it and given them an extra verse or two for good measure. Sometimes these things hit us when we just don't need the hassle and we react accordingly as human beings. The Zen meditation and the non-Zen medication have calmed me a lot in the past couple of years! Very best regards, mooman (whose hair is now cut to a centimetre to try and avoid these problems!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Rustic Rebel Date: 08 Feb 02 - 09:41 AM Was it a full moon? That would explain a lot to me if it were my friends! Rustic |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: The Shambles Date: 08 Feb 02 - 09:43 AM The answer is yes you were offended and there is nothing that be done now to ever change that. So it follows you were perfectly entitled to be offended, that they may not have intended to offend is another matter, and one not within your control. The next move is theirs........ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: catspaw49 Date: 08 Feb 02 - 09:47 AM Jeri and the mooman struck the same thoughts I had. I don't know the intent of the "joke" and often, intent is everything. Moo points out the differences in "days" and I think that happens an awful lot. And frankly sometimes there are just "things" that get under your skin and even when you know it's a joke......it's still no joke! If you're like me at all, sometimes you just go off on something for whatever reason and afterwards you look back at it and can see it for what it was. Wish I had a dime for every time I have quite inadvertently offended someone. AND, I wish I had another dime for every time I have pulled something that I knew would get to them, but was still in fact just a joke. In the latter case, it is often the sign of a good and solid friendship. Randy is a very close friend and we have both always had the ability to nail each other to the wall. After the initial temper flare there is a lot of cappin' on each other ending in a lot of laughter. I don't know why we do it, but we have both enjoyed it over the years........I suppose we're just weird. I think that intent is pretty high on the list when you look at jokes and finding out the why of this one might be a big help. I'm willing to bet (and I don't know your friend at all) that they may be somewhat shocked/surprised at your reaction. I'm not saying your reaction was wrong, but from what I know of you in the strange way we get to know each other here, I would have been surprised at your reaction because in many ways you seem the kind of guy I could have a joke with. But as I said, sometimes there are certain things that just get to us.......it sure as hell has happened to me!!! So now go and just piss up a slack rope huh? ...........uh.........wait a minute......no,no,no...just a joke man.............Chance, put that banjo down ......... C'mon now....Don't be swingin' that thing arou........GEEZIZ!!! That was close..........Put it down man............. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: GUEST,Mad4Mud at work Date: 08 Feb 02 - 09:54 AM Just to echo several thoughts here: Cut her some slack if this was her first offense. It was wrong of her to act in such a manner publicly but perhaps she though you were close enough friends that you would laugh along with her. If in times past you've given her the impression you can laugh at yourself she might have mistakenly thought this was one of those times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: SharonA Date: 08 Feb 02 - 10:28 AM Another thought: Did this happen in a bar? If so, might she and her friends just had a bit too much to drink, to the point that they might have mistakenly believed their rude behavior to be amusing to all, instead of just to themselves? Personally, I don't think you were wrong to be offended. Not only did these people disrupt your song toward the end of it, but they talked among themselves to set up their "joke" while you were singing, instead of politely listening to you. It's hard to laugh along with such an obvious display of disrespect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: harpgirl Date: 08 Feb 02 - 11:19 AM ...it does sound like it could have been a passive aggressive expression of feelings...what song was it? was it just a corny cowboy song or do these people envy you or are they paying you back for something? oh oh, busman's holiday....signing off...no more questions... but you are the person with the most ability to control the outcome of an interaction when your response is the most flexible...if you accept it for what it was purported to be you can control the outcome rather than be forced to leave because you felt manipulated into feeling humiliated.... it's called requisite variety, I think. The more flexible your response is the greater your choices will be in determining the desired outcome of an interaction...hg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Rick Fielding Date: 08 Feb 02 - 11:48 AM Boy, Chance, if ever a story needed "fleshing out" this is it. Give us some background. Is the group really close? Do they often kid around? Were you singing "Old Blue"? Do YOU have a reputation as a kidder? I can't for the life of me think how a "practical joke" like that would be funny in any circumstance...but then I can't understand why folks at Football games or in TV studio audiences go Woof, Woof, Woof! and think it's anything but moronic. The whole thing kind of defies any kind of logic...is there ANY more to it that you haven't revealed? Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 08 Feb 02 - 11:52 AM That's precisely what I meant in my first post, Rick. Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Clifton53 Date: 08 Feb 02 - 12:21 PM Next time just break into "Little Red Riding Hood", nothing stops this kind of stuff like a fast and unexpected salvo from the performer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Bill D Date: 08 Feb 02 - 01:03 PM ...tsk...maybe you could have reacted a 'wee' bit less grumpily...like simply shaking your head and making it clear you didn't see it as much of a joke....but.....it is unfortunately the case that some people have very little notion to what constitutes a clever 'joke' and what is just staging an insensitive "happening". Sometimes it is a VERY fine line, and depends on timing, place, personalities involved...etc.. (and sometimes it can be hilareous to some, and be lost on others!...Chance--you know a little round man with initials D.D...[who I know does not read this forum]..once at an open sing, he was doing an intro to a song..."Rickety-Tickety-Tin", about silly-horrible stuff where a woman offs her family in imaginative ways...and ends with the lines to the effect "if you don't like my little song, you have only yourself to blame- you should have never let me begin.." So, at JUST the right moment in the intro, Bob Clayton, knowing what was being planned, hollers.."Stop! Don't go any further!"...which sent most of us giggling...but left poor D.D. transfixed in confusion! His mind simply doesn't DO jokes like that!...eventually, Bob had to say.."never mind, I was just trying to make a joke...go on and sing.." Time will tell if this 'howling' makes any lasting problems in your social life...*grin*...but I'd say, based on limited info...the 'joke' was poorly concieved, and the reaction was kinda extreme..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Fortunato Date: 08 Feb 02 - 01:55 PM You guys have nailed it. A few details. This person and I have a history of friendship and then alienation. I left a band I had formed rather that play music with the person. I made excuses, but my reasons were apparent, I suppose. Too much antagonism in rehearsal and on the job, not enough music. The current incident was at song circle in the home of a mutual friend and we've all known each other for years, but I've never known a practical joke to be played or an aggressive or antagonistic word to be spoken. I am known to go for humor, and am usually IMHOP a good sport, though my humor is usually self-effacing not directed at others. I feel sure it was meant as a joke, but we were singing Waltz Across Texas, not Dog House Blues, and the basic disrespect shown in talking while we were singing and then howling just struck me wrong. You're all right, on another day I might have shrugged it off, but... anyway thanks for the thoughts. I just had to talk about with you guys and get some perspective. We are going to learn Dog House Blues in preparation for the next gathering and tell her do her howls on cue. Chance |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: GUEST,Mad4Mud at work Date: 08 Feb 02 - 01:59 PM Well, if she does it again you can always reply, "Really honey, you're not that ugly." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Jeri Date: 08 Feb 02 - 02:06 PM You could have finished with: And live and let live I'm pretty sure it would fit in with Waltz Across Texas, but they probably would have ended up more pissed off than you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Fortunato Date: 08 Feb 02 - 02:14 PM Oh, Mooman, thanks for your note on Zen. Anger may be surely be seen as not accepting what 'is'. On the other hand I acted out of my natural self when I spoke. I believe the Buddha mind can say: "Go jump in a lake", as well as forgive. But who am I to say? Fortunato |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: harpgirl Date: 08 Feb 02 - 02:15 PM ...such a beautiful song...I guessed it might be that one...any Chance of musical reconciliation...? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: DougR Date: 08 Feb 02 - 02:16 PM Doesn't sound very nice to me, Fortunato. I would probably have handled it as you did. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Fortunato Date: 08 Feb 02 - 02:17 PM thanks Jeri, I sort of like that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: SharonA Date: 08 Feb 02 - 05:58 PM ...or you could have made a pun and said, "Git along, little doggies!" (as opposed to the proper "dogies" meaning cows) *G* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: The Shambles Date: 08 Feb 02 - 07:06 PM Let us know how you get on anyway................ [Or HOWL you get on.] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: NicoleC Date: 08 Feb 02 - 07:54 PM I dunno, I think you were perfectly right to be offended, but you might have over-reacted a little by storming out of the session. Call it a lesson in dealing with hecklers. Some great ideas here from the Mudcatters! Next time you could also ask an audience member or the host to please let their dogs out :) Kudos for finishing the song over the howls! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Dave Wynn Date: 08 Feb 02 - 08:23 PM I have a slight (very slight) speech stutter. I have lived with it for years and heard all the jokes. I use some of them myself but every so often an innocent remark sets me on edge. I find that not showing I am hurt is the best solution coz usually they are meant in a spirit of fun and have no malice intended. Be sure of who you are and what you do. I bet you are comfortable singing that song and was hurt at having the howls. Yes you were right to feel offended but wrong to let it show. (I think). Spot |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Dave Wynn Date: 08 Feb 02 - 08:26 PM But then again its never (yet) happened to me so it's easy for me to say. Do you feel your reaction was appropriate?.If you do then it probably was. If you regret walking out then it probably wasn't. Spot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Bert Date: 09 Feb 02 - 02:39 AM You have every right to be offended. The only exception I can think of, would be, if the person who arranged the prank was someone like Spaw. Then the problem would be finishing the song without cracking up. But that was obviously not the case. Now you have to think of an appropriate song to sing the next time that you find that person in the audience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: GUEST,fortunato Date: 09 Feb 02 - 07:28 AM Well, the cookie isn't resetting. Thanks guys. Yes, I have felt both ways: I have felt justified and I have felt that perhaps the person won't do that to anyone else. But I have also felt that leaving was an emotional outburst and counterproductive. I don't know, but we'll try singing Dog House Blues and perhaps mend the fences.>br> How did you know Harpgirl? You have a good memory. Regards, Fortunato. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: WyoWoman Date: 09 Feb 02 - 11:10 AM Sounds like you were responding in an appropriate way to the actual message, rather than the "joke," which often is a way of expressing hostility or meanness without having to take reponsibility for one's own behavior. I'd be hurt and hurt usually transmutes into anger. I don't know whether your leaving the circle was "right," but I think it would be hard to remain, given the strong feelings this person prodded out of you. But that's the point of jokes of this sort, isn't it? THEY get to just hold up their hands and say,"Hey, buddy. Chill. It was just a joke," and make you seem like the hypersensitive crank. It's a very win-lose situation, and I don't know many effective ways to deal with that. It'd sure leave a bad taste in my mouth and I imagine I'd go out of my way to avoid this person and his/her cronies in the future. I mean, why didn't one of them have the decency/intelligence to say, "You know, I don't think this is such a great idea. I'm trying to listen ..." Ick. Double ick. ww |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Rick Fielding Date: 09 Feb 02 - 12:11 PM Well now that I've given this some more thought.....Chance, in a sense it's a compliment to your good nature and sense of fun (I remember those shirts!)...and your ability. It hasn't happened to me..but it easily COULD. I'm known as a practical joker, plus folks know that my skill levels are pretty good, so they probably think I WOULD laugh, and not take it as any reflection on my music. I can't see them doing it to someone inexperienced or nervous about performing. It'll work out in the wash! Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: M.Ted Date: 09 Feb 02 - 04:35 PM I agree with the idea that it was hostility only thinly veiled as humore--my rejoinder(Monday morning quarterbacking, I admit), is "Your singing hasn't improved"-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: DougR Date: 09 Feb 02 - 04:44 PM I think it would have been apprpriate had you finished the song and then broke out into the I-95 song. You may know it as , "Were you Born an Asshole, Have you been one your whole life ..." DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Fortunato Date: 10 Feb 02 - 08:31 AM Thanks, for the support, my friends. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: Llanfair Date: 10 Feb 02 - 10:31 AM I've only just got home and seen this thread. I agree with the majority, this "joke" wasn't funny, and could only be planned to demean you and your music in a very thoughtless and vicious way. I wouldn't see bridge building as an option. If I thought anyone undervalued me or my music to that extent, I would avoid their company for good. The person involved has got big problems with social interaction. Just my opinion!!! Cheers, Bron. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: KingBrilliant Date: 11 Feb 02 - 05:51 AM Well - you made your point by protesting and walking out. If you hadn't done that you probably would have sat there seething & wishing you had. So you all know where you stand. Don't let it spoil the song circle for you or ruin the friendship.
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Subject: RE: BS: Was I wrong to be offended at the howls? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Feb 02 - 06:55 AM "Poison in jest - no offence i' the world" to quote Hamlet.
There are songs where the odd howling dog would fit in as friendly elaboration. But this time it sounds like you were being needled. Tricky - if you laugh it off, you're left feeling humiliated, if you complain you're down as not having a sense of humour, if you walk out you're seen as sulking.
I'd have probably stopped, and given them the floor to finish their singing. But that likely wouldn't have worked too well either.
There are situations where it can be handy to have someone else ready to tell people to shut up. The way you might when the crowd at the bar are chattering away during a song you want to hear. It's much easier to do it for someone else's song than for your own. |