How deep do you go musically?

Subject: How deep do you go musically?
From: marty D
Date: 08 Feb 02 - 11:06 PM

Some of the best music threads I've seen here over a couple of years have also been the shortest. Sometimes there are a fair number of posts but they often end up with only three or four people in discussion. Recent ones on Blind Lemon and Piedmont blues have been great, and I especially like discussions about the roots of someone like Dylan or Doc Watson. Some of the black gospel threads have also presented lots of interesting information, but I'm curious, how many folks actually OWN recordings of the early country, Gospel, blues or folk artists, and listened to them before coming on Mudcat. Through suggestions from Mudcat I've gotten to love the Delmore Brothers, Uncle Dave Macon, and most recently Frank Hutchison and Fiddlin' John Carson from that great site with the old 78s.

marty

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Deckman
Date: 08 Feb 02 - 11:22 PM

Hi Marty ... darned good question! I think you'll find a 'generation thing' here. Some of us, myself for example, are quite a bit older than most of the posters. What that means is that some of us knew these oldtimers personally. As for myself, I'm NOT a great guitarist, I'm much more of a ballad singer. As such, I hung around some of the 'greats', if you will, early on. My contributions tend to be more in the area of what they were like as people and personalities. I think your thread is going to prove interesting. Thanx for posting it. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: marty D
Date: 08 Feb 02 - 11:43 PM

Thanks Bob. You've been one of the hi-lites of Mudcat for me. Several of your threads have been fascinating, and they never seem to get derailed by silliness. Maybe it's your age! Just kidding!

marty

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 12:11 AM

Marty,

Because of my interest in Old Time Music I have collected over the years what I consider some of the best of the old timers. The Blue Sky Boys, Bradley Kincaid. Beuell Kazee, The Original Bog Trotters, Jimmy Rogers, The 1934-36 Sons of the Pioneers Recordings, The Georgia Yellow Hammers LuLu Belle and Skyland Scotty, Joe and Rosa Lee Maphis.

You'll find some of the best singing on these albums. Just try and find them in CD. :-)

Don

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 08:41 AM

I'm one of the younger old timers. Been listening to early country, old time, blues, etc. for 40+ years. Been playing old time for 35 odd. For decades my wife and I over-indulged on LPs. Now it's CDs. I've heard almost anybody you could name either live or on recording.

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Fortunato
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 09:11 AM

Knee deep. (NEE deep). Sorry, couldn't resist. I have 78s of early country, 45s of root rock, tapes of jump blues, LPs of Doc and Norman, AP and Sara and Maybelle, and the Skillet Lickers, CDs of all those and more. But my KNEE DEEP musicality comes from association with all of you and all the great and not so great performers I've had the pleasure of hearing and/or knowing. Oh and the radio. Listening to Dick Spottswood on the Public Radio. He 'teachs' a weekly graduate course in American ethnomusicology. Cheers, Chance

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 11:13 AM

Wade In the Water deep (like Fortunato). Thanks to everybody who writes about the old music; I have found some good artists I had never listened to and perhaps learned a little through these threads. The history threads put the music in context.

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 11:58 AM

Far too Gawd-damned deep Marty! I started to listen to "weirdo" music when I was about 14 and it hasn't stopped. It became an obsession, and resulted in me spending literally thousands of hours pouring over dusty record bins in used vinyl stores.

To make matters worse (because of my nature) I wanted (want) to know EVERYTHING about these obscure artists...what makes them tick...why they played their music, etc.

Don't worry about their being only a handful of Mudcatters interested in the real minutiae of instrumental/vocal trad music.... a handful is better than none. I can empathize (usually) with the vocal music traddies' frustration with Mudcat's 'mainstream' evolution. Simply 'cause it's nice to be able to talk about a narrow subject with others that share your interests on a similar level.

But Mudcat IS what it IS, and will continue to become less specific. Other than a very pleasant hobby, it's been a terrific "introduction service" to folks I'd never have gotten to know in 'real life'. I do most of my "trad talk" with Mudcatters "off the forum".

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: GUEST,SteveB
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 12:09 PM

My experiance is similar to many here. I'm only 35...but when I got interested in folk music and old-time and bluegrass I also was fiddling and playing mandolin and flatpicking. I wanted to get down to the essence of what was going on in my fiddling and mandolin...so I have tons of the old field recordings. Plus my banjo pal has lots of old 78's and a beautiful old victrola to play them on.

I also love the new generations of fiddlers/folkies too. I listen to as much music as possible to get the whole story...not just the old stuff. But it always starts there for me and my attitude is the more I understand the oldest stuff the better I'll understand and execute what I'm trying to do now.

Plus I just love to listen to it anyway... ;-)

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 01:36 PM

I don't - and I'll be the first to admit it. But I just don't delve into the background of ANYTHING I'm intersted, really. doesn't mean I'm not willing to listen and learn from the conversations of others, however.

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 02:31 PM

And now, a note from the peanut gallery...

I don't know much about the musicians you guys often talk about. I read many of the threads, but don't post (imagine that!) because I don't have anything to contribute. I read, and I learn, and sometimes I get excited because your excitement is infectious. This is stuff I wouldn't know anything about unless I eavesdropped on your conversations.

I, and probably others, are a little bit wary of asking dumb questions. We probably shouldn't be, because what seems like a "dumb" question on the surface frequently leads to very intelligent answers and further discussion by the folks who know. Of course, you may be bored with answering simple things like "Why is Uncle Dave so special?" and wish to talk about which finger Pappy Grunderhook played the high C note with in the 4th bar of Melon Baller's Blues. There's room for both types of discussion, and who knows, maybe some of us asking about basics will one day learn enough to join you when you talk about details.

I guess the bottom line is there are probably a lot more people enjoying the more in-depth threads than those posting to them.

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 02:55 PM

Retrospectively.
When I first became interested in fingerpicking I hadn't really listened to any of the late, great elders in this field. And it was quite deliberate at the time with my rationale being that I wanted to limit the influences exposed to me, so that I could develop my own style of pickin'. The early influences (that I had been exposed to) were just Doc, Bromberg, Grossman, Duck Baker and an obscure fingerpicking/flatpicking wizard by the name of Fielding - who's probably influenced my playing more than any of the others combined.

It was only when I began to achieve a degree of proficiency that I starting delving into these late great pioneers to find out what made them tick musically. Now I shamelessly steal from them, and anyone else I can corner whether via live situations or from videos. *BG*

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 03:40 PM

Jeri, if you have a question, blurt it out. The only "dumb question" is the one that doesn't get asked.

Oh, boy! Way back. When I was in my early teens, I heard Burl Ives on the radio a lot, and a local singer (later, a restaurateur and local character) who had a radio program on Sunday mornings and sang Pacific Northwest songs and ballads—Ivar Haglund.

In the early Fifties I was going with a girl who was interested in folk music, and between her and hearing Walt Robertson live for the first time, I got totally hooked. I started learning to play the guitar and buying folk records. Lots of the earlier ones are 10" LPs. A whole stack of Burl Ives, Susan Reed, Richard Dyer-Bennet, Josh White, many others. As time went by, I added Ed McCurdy, Ewan MacColl, Cynthia Gooding, Peggy Seeger, Theodore Bikel—I have Sandy Paton's first record on Elektra. I thought it was terrific (still think so), but Sandy said he didn't like it. I think that's one of the reasons he started Folk-Legacy. Lots of Gordon Bok. Now, I have a four-foot stack of vinyl folk records, a whole bookcase full of books, and the CDs are piling up. I've learned songs off all of them.

I returned to the University of Washington in 1957 and enrolled in the School of Music. At the same time, I took English 401—the Popular Ballad, taught by Prof. David C. Fowler. That gave me a real taste for learning the history and backgrounds of the songs I sing. Been diggin' ever since. Am I some kind of authority? No. I'm still learning.

"How do I know he's a folk singer? Well, he spent ten minutes introducing a three-minute song!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 04:02 PM

Not very deep. I bought records (and now CDs) when I could afford to and the opportunity hit. Same with books about the subjects. And I kept asking questions and kept my eyes and ears open. It all comes along unpredictably.

The one thing is you have to get out and see things live, and poke around. One night I went to the Freight and Salvage in Berkeley and saw John Cohen play. It was really a good show and on the break he sold me various albums in the men's room, some of them bootlegs of 78s, plus the immortal 45rpm EP by "The New Lost City Bang Boys" called "Dirt is Dirt" ("Bang Away Lulu, My Sweet Farm Girl", others).

Ask questions, Jeri. I've been correctd on a few things here on the Mudcat and it's been ok.

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 06:07 PM

I never heard of any of these people, let alone their music, don't play guitar, and answer questions by just searching the internet and reposting what I find ;-)

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: 53
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 06:54 PM

Beatles, man Beatles.

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Mudlark
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 10:02 PM

I dont know how deep, in terms of background. Just being old helps...haha...saw lots of what are now icons when they were playing small venues...I got interested in English border ballads from hearing Cynthia Gooding's albums, and started collecting books about them (some deadly boring!), and records, and learning to play the ones that spoke to me personally. I was fortunate to grow up in LA in the 50's when both folk music and west coast jazz (another love of mine) were being played everywhere. It was so easy...and so cheap...then to see greats. For the price of a drink or 2 one could listen to fabulous music for hours. And SAFE. I used to go to places alone that I would be doubtful about visiting now with an armed guard.

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From:
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 10:02 PM

I am quite shallow and just like what I like and I don't care what the source is. I don't care if someone makes a million dollars off it or not. I do like knowing a little about the history but that is a bonus and for me the main thing is how it sounds. If I don't like how it sounds I won't listen to it even if I appreciate its other virtues, including emotional, historical, and social factors. If that is the case, I'd rather read the words or someone's description of it, say in Singout, if the tune isn't catching or the words don't rhyme right or something. mg

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: DougR
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 11:20 PM

If deep were old, I'd be deep. My intro was listening to the Grand Ole' Opry back in the thirties when many of the artists mentioned in this thread were performing there. I have been a Burl Ives fan since I was a teenager, and love the kinds of songs he sang. I'm no musicologist though, and probably tune out on most of the technical stuff because I'm not an accomplished guitarist. I just play for my own amazement.

DougR

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Gypsy
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 11:43 PM

I love history, and that is why i play music. the more background on a tune/song, the better. But i only go back to Phil Harris. Oh yeah, like Count Basie too. As well as the current mish mosh i actually play.

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 08:00 AM

Interesting question and thread title. Which ever way I look, I am shallow but as time goes on, even though I have yet to get there, I have more and more desire to find and listen to recordings of players like Michael Coleman and find out how they treated the music I like the most. Maybe in a couple of years time I will get round to actively doing this.

Currently the only old recordings I have are a boxed set called "Farewell To Ireland" which I may or may not have got before joining Mudcat - I know I was reading the newsgroups at the time but MC came several months later in my "Internet history" but I can be sure it wasn't as a result of a suggestion from any forum. In fact, I have yet to buy anything as a result of discussion here although I do have a growing list of wants that I hope I will soon be able to start satisfying (I've had a "pay rise") - I have seen some great suggestions, most notably for me in a thread on box players as there are several I want to buy...

As for the directions Marty mentioned, again I am shallow as they have yet to become areas of special interest (although I can enjoy listening to most music) to me. Maybe in time, I will broaden as well as deepen...

Jon

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 08:40 AM

I'm hip boots deep in traditional American folk music, rhythm and blues, old gospel(black and white), rock and roll and jazz, but pretty shallow (I realize) in British Isles music. Not from a lack of interest, because I love what I have heard and bought. I am damp-soled on contemporary singer-songwriters.. not to dismiss them all as worthless, but because my loves are elsewhere (and I don't want to be reminded of lousy romances turned sour.) I cut my folk teeth on the Anthology of American Folk Music, although I loved what I heard all the way back to the 50's.

And Mudlark: my taste in jazz is very West Coast, even though I grew up in Wisconsin. Some of my favorite albums are by Howard Rumsey and his Lighthouse All-stars. I also was extremely excited to find an out-of-print CD of the Chico Hamilton Quintet recently.

I love reading the threads on Mudcat, whether I am familiar with the music or not, although I get far less out of threads about musicians I haven't heard. And think of all the wonderful musicians and music we've all heard locally, or regionally that most of the rest of us have never heard!

Jerry

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Willie-O
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 10:23 AM

Well, I see collecting old recordings as a separate but related hobby to the interest in making folk music as an ongoing tradition.

I credit a stack of old 50's Canadian folk music records as a major early influence in my interest, and still play some of the material contained therein.

I don't sit around spinning the old discs as a habit though. Partly cause the old needle's too rusty. As it were.

If a song grabs me enough that I want to play it, though, I do want to learn something about it.

W-O

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 10:46 AM

My knowledge is broad and shallow, but deepened considerably by continued participation in Mudcat. I love just about any kind of music, but lately I'm more interested in "mountain music" or "Appalachian" -- I guess because I sense that that's more my roots music than Celtic, and because I'm not even certain what Celtic is anymore. I've built my CD library slowly over the past three years I've been here, to the degree that I have a pink sticky on my computer that says "DON'T YOU DARE BUY ANOTHER CD!!!" because there's a big difference between hitting the "one-click" button and actually paying the frickin' Visa bill.

I also read many more threads than I post to, so just because there aren't a lot of posters to a "deep" thread, don't assume that it's being wasted or that the discussion is only among a handful of you. Just imagine you're at a party, sitting on the sofa talking to each other, but there are bunches of us eavesdropping all around you.

Attentively, WW

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: harpgirl
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 01:04 PM

...music has definitely been a defining force in my life. When I was sixteen I took the bus from GP Shores to downtown Detroit to the Fox theatre to see the MoTown Review at Christmas. I'm sure I was the only unaccompanied white woman in the theatre but I just wanted to hear Gladys, The Temptations, and Marvin Gaye...

my taste was influenced and shaped by people I've met along the way. I always liked the irish fiddle tunes an old boyfriend played the best, but it has taken me years to learn to play them well on the autoharp. My first was given to me by a poet and prophet named Marty Wolfe, who when I said I didn't know how to play it, replied "Don't worry, you will!"

The moment I heard John Hartford and Clifton Chenier in the same day stands out in my mind as an influencing moment...

I moved to Arkansas to immerse myself in mountain music and I was not disappointed...I learned to play rhythm guitar in Arkansas and I stopped playing the mountain dulcimer as the autoharp increasingly captivated me

I have a large collection of old records, CD's and music books but I am a curious person who enjoys learning, by nature. I don't know the stuff Don Meixner does or Larry Parish though, for instance and I share a fascination with Leadbelly's style with Rick....

it's deep in the sense that music has been a very large guiding force in my life...and a great reason for making changes...hg

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Mudlark
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 03:24 PM

Jerry....I LOVE HR's Lighthouse Allstars.... I hung out there a lot...the Lighthouse was in Hermosa Beach, I mean practically right ON the beach, about 4 doors from the sand. The walls were hung with cheap Dali prints, lots of dripping clocks, etc., tiny tables jammed together, air filled with smoke. Heavy smoke outside the back door too, when the band would break for an intermission, watery but cheap drinks. I think their rendition of Night in Tunisia the best I've ever heard...I still play my old 33's often. Bud Shank used to play further n. in a bar in Malibu every Sunday, Saw Chico H., Shorty Rodgers, Dave Bruebeck, MJQ (they often were at the Lighthouse too)...so glad that some of this music is being remastered to CD...I've not had any luck, yet, with Lighthouse AS's, but have lots of Mulligan, C. Baker and Getz from that period. Still GREAT music.

Harpgirl...Are you still in Arkansas? I lived there for nearly 13 years, NW corner, near Huntsville. Wonderful, old-timey music and the best musical friends I ever made. Eureka Springs hadnt erupted into hoedown territory when I lived there but there was a great local music festival in Green Forest, lots of fiddle players, clog dancing, mop dancing, etc. I miss it still.

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: 53
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 04:52 PM

Just listen to the Beatles, and you'll have everything you need to know.

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 09:51 AM

I was introduced to a lot of "old Time" music in the late fifties and early sixties. It was then that I began to collect 78's by the Carter family, Jimmie Rodgers, Wilma Lee and Stoney Cooper,The Louvin Bothers and so on. I also began to collect old Blues 78's by Howlin' Wolf, Blind Blake and Bukka White. I still play these old records from time to time, they seem so much more authentic when you can hear the pops and hisses, the scratches and skips. The Last New 78 I bought was Diana by Paul Anka in 1957 0r 58.

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 11:09 AM

I've been watching this thread and vacillating as to whether to post or not. I'm thinking the subject question is a lot like the Arkansas traveler asking the squater “How deep is the water in that stream over yonder?” The answer... “Why, it goes all the way to the bottom.”

Marty's question is, I think, just designed to get us sharing our experiences and getting to know one another a little better and that is a good thing. Still, I wouldn't want a shy newcomer to feel that his own experience was somehow inadequate to participate in the discussions.

I think our experiences and backgrounds come out as we address questions and subjects raised in the threads. Personally, I'd rather learn about people in the course of interaction with them, kinda like real life.

But that's just me.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: GUEST,Oulmole
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 06:49 PM

This "how deep" thread is a good morale-builder for a shallow-running crankbait like me. (Saaay--that's not a "troll"-ing metaphor,is it? Goodness gracious. Coming Soon: the MudCatFishing Channel. Hm. Naah. Too bullheaded. But I digress.) Several of these posts reassure me that I'm not the only one out here who isn't exactly the Marianas Trench of folkie fathomings but who still truly likes to Lurk & Learn. But as to there being no such thing as a dumb question: patience. I'm working on it. Anyway thanks, fellow Shallowies. / Hey - let's form a Caucus! The Bonnie Shoals of Herring!! Nowait. Food-chain problem. Nevermind.
-Joe in Connecticut

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 07:26 PM

I first got interested in folk music back in the 30's with Canadian radio programs. Don Messer and the Islanders, Ned Landry were early favorites. Then Buryl Ives, the Weavers, even the Kingston Trio. Then the Beatles came along and it's been down hill ever since.They killed folk music; never liked them.

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 01:55 PM

I think the Mudcat has been a good influence on my digging into some of the older performers. The only CD I asked for this last Christmas was the Harry Smith Anthology of American Folk Music. I think of those CD's { and others by some blues artists } as research materials.

When my wife is around I'm more likely to play more current material vs the research stuff because I know it will get on her nerves. Now that I have a CD player in the car I'll be able to explore my tastes in older music more often.

I also find that I'm more likely to listen to older blues and old time music than old celtic music. My taste in Celtic seems to run toward new artists. The next CD's on my list to buy are the Delmore Brothers and the new rereleases of Bill and Charlie Monroe.

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: 53
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:07 PM

The beatles were influenced by all types of music, and then they passed it on to us, why do you guys have such a hard time admitting that?

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:19 PM

There is nothing to admit. I simply dont like what they did. I cant stand drums and electric guitars. That is a personal opinion and preference, nothing more. Who influenced them is irrelevent to me. BTW, welcome back 53.

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 10:12 PM

. . . passed it on to us. . . ? I don't think so.

I was singing before the Beatles met. In addition to singing, I taught folk guitar and classic guitar. In the late Fifties and early Sixties I had kids coming to me wanting to learn to play like Fred Hellerman/Bob Shane/Cynthia Gooding/Peter Yarrow/Joan Baez/Theo Bikel/Ed McCurdy/Judy Collins/Ray Boguslav. In about the mid-Sixties most of them went away, to be replaced by kids who wanted me to teach them to play like John Lennon/George Harrison.

Bob Dylan killed traditional. The Beatles killed the folk revival.

I don't like Dylan much. The Beatles were okay, I guess. But I never wanted to sing any of their stuff.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 10:30 PM

At the end of the row of music stands in the family room is a working Edison cylinder player. If all the contributors to this thread would just please send me money, I would be able to start burning CD's from all the 78's, 45's, and 33's that I worry about what will happen to when I'm finally committed. Oh yes, and reel-to-reel tapes. So much for depth.

Scuse me, Kendall and Don, but I just don't understand the claim that "the Beatles killed folk" or that "Dylan killed trad." They might have tried to drown out those forms, but they didn't succeed. I'm having trouble seeing that the Beatles in particular did anything to folk music. Is the claim that had they not come along, the masses would have been happy with Blind Lemon J.? Sorry, I just don't get your point.

CC

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 11:09 PM

I am on a never ending journey following the music. I go where it takes me and it has been a strange trip! From English Folk Rock in the 70's (Steeleye Span, Mr Fox, Fairport Convention) to more traditional celtic and english ballads, to sea shanties, old-time and clawhammer banjo, jug band, and in the last year to the irreverent music of the 10's, 20's, and 30's it has never been boring.

The internet and the Mudcat has also exposed me to types of music, people, and songs that I would have never imagined existed before. I am now a 100% addict!

JAB

P.S. I have been searching for current CDs of the Georgia Yellow hammers. If any of you know of any, or have old recordings that can be turned into MP3s I would love to hear them.

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 02:23 PM

This may be thread creep, but CC did ask:—

In the late Fifties and early Sixties, there was a huge resurgence of interest in tradition folk songs. It had been building for a long time, but it reached a peak about then (the Kingston Trio didn't start it as many people claim, they just hopped on their surfboards and rode a wave that was already there). There were thousands of kids and quite a few adults who were really into listening to and singing traditional songs, and they provided the audiences for singers such as myself, who'd started singing folk songs in the early Fifties. And they wanted to participate. Many of them wanted lessons. They made it possible for many of us to make a marginal but thoroughly enjoyable living from music—by teaching during the week and singing various places on the weekends.

Then Bob Dylan came along, and suddenly the interest shifted from traditional songs to "folk songs" you wrote yourself. Soon an evening in a coffeehouse consisted of listening to some kid droning on ("This is a folk song I wrote just yesterday.") for thirty verses about the injustices of society or the state of the ecology or how he found life to be a pool of sewage—dismally bad doggerel set to tunes that you couldn't remember ten seconds after the song was finished and that nobody else wanted to sing because they were all busy writing their own songs on the same subjects.

I'll never forget the evening I went into a coffeehouse to sing and some eighteen-year-old who'd been singing and playing the guitar for about six months walked up to me and said, "Jeez, old man," (I was thirty-four at the time) "why do you bother singing all that old shit? It's not socially relevant!" Here was a kid who was singing "union songs" that he wrote himself—but he'd never even held a job. Bob Dylan was his idol. Traditional songs, some of which had been around for hundreds of years, were no longer "socially relevant!"

Older singers such as myself were drifting away, and those who tried to hang on were treated like fossils. General audiences, including the knowledgeable, adult, after-show crowds that used to show up in the coffeehouses, disappeared because what the coffeehouses were now offering was so excruciatingly bad. Predictably, coffeehouses started going broke and closing their doors. There were no more jobs for folk singers or singer/songwriters alike.

About that time, the Beatles hit these shores and the shift in interest drove the final nails into the coffin.

At the annual Northwest Folklife Festival (a huge event held at the Seattle Center every Memorial Day weekend), most of what you hear is various flavors of rock, country (Nashville style), or just about any musical form you can dream up, including many, many singer/songwriters. But—out of the two or three thousand acts on the various stages all over the center grounds, you really have to search to find someone singing traditional songs. And I stopped going to the Seattle Song Circle meetings a few years back when everybody was singing Jacques Brel songs. How it is now, I don't know. I haven't been for a while.

There's a lot of confusion these days about what constitutes traditional folk music. But we've had threads up the ziggy about that one, and I don't propose to open that can of worms yet again. As it stands, "folk music" is whatever you find in the folk music section in your local record store. Gresham's Law at work.

Maybe it's too strong to say that Dylan and the Beatles killed folk music. Traditional folk music is still going on—pretty much on the level it was in the early Fifties. It may be different in other parts of the world, but that's what appears to be happening in this neck of the woods.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 02:25 PM

I don't go deep, I go wide, and long.

~S~

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 03:29 PM

I think that the "Folk Boom" in the 60's was an abberation that we all thought would last far longer than it did. How long did rockabilly last? Did the girl groups kill it? How long did the girl groups and Leslie Gore last? Who killed them? Who killed the Beatles? Most Pop music last for eight or ten years at most. What about grunge? Who killed the Seattle rock scene, or Art Rock? The miracle is that folk music was as popular as it was for as long as it was. Folk music has been around for hundreds of years and wasn't measured by record sales. Now is normal. Just my opinion.

Jerry

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 03:30 PM

Deep or wide? (No double entendres HERE, eh? where's Cletus when you need him)
for myself, deep in some areas, wide and shallow in others. I've tried to dig in pretty deep and learn how to sound like Charlie Poole (or like AP Carter, which means I have to do that with two women. . .but that's another story) deep for brother duets (Louvin Bros, Blue Sky Boys, Delmores, Monroes, etc) and the more I learn the more I want to learn.
Wide because there's some areas I just dont know all that well and only think of a song in that area when I hear somebody sing something else RELATED.
Got my first guitar in 1959, banjo six months later, and it's been all downhill ever since.
I think it was Freeman Dyson who gave a very simple geometric analogy on why you never run out of things to learn. Consider a circle-- that represents the things you know-- and the circumference of the circle is the boundary between what you know and what you don't. . . as the circle gets bigger so does its circumference. . . works for me! nt PETE

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 04:16 PM

Jerry, when it's all boiled down, I agree with you. Actually, except for general confusion about what constitutes folk music (and I don't want to get into that again--plenty of threads already and nothing solved), I think the status of traditional music is a lot stronger now than it's ever been. The folk boom left a substantial residue of people who developed a genuine interest and who are still at it. All in all, a very good thing.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: GUEST,Iceboy
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 04:24 PM

For my money, hilbilly soul (meaning old-timey Appalachia) doesn't go any deeper than Ralph Stanley and the Stanley Brothers. He sings hill music the way God intended it to be done and sounds like he was singing about Kentucky even before Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett got there. For the record, I'm also a huge fan of Jimmie Rodgers, (who learned a hell of a lot from Blind Lemon Jefferson), the Carter Family, The Louvin Brothers, The Sons of the Pioneers, Flatt & Scruggs, much of Bill Monroe, The Light Crust Doughboys, Hank Thompson, George Jones, Patsy Cline, and Lefty Frizell, among others.

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 04:25 PM

Wow! There's a lot of good thoughts and opinions being expressed here. Thank you all. Don Firth and I often laugh to ourselves about how many years we've been around the "folk scene." We don't measure our time in "years", but rather in how many folk revivals we have seen. (right Don?) They seem to roll around about ten years or so. The late John Denver made a big impact on me. Here was a guy that was well versed in traditional material, played with some big name groups, and then had the courage to step out of the box and go it alone. And, I loved his music. With him, I realised that it was possible to have a foot in several camps at once. I remember when I first started performing some of his material in my own concerts! OH BOY! Talk about trouble. The traditional crowd, which was omnipotent at the time, called me everything but proper. But I didn't care. I thought some of his music was great ... and I still do. As time went on, I noticed that several others were starting to include not just his songs, but also some of guitar work. The Beatles? Not for me, but I recognised early on that these guys were incredible. But there was nothing in their music that I could relate to, except the close harmonies. So, the original question was something like: How deep do we go in music. Pretty darned deep, I'd say. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: 53
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 05:27 PM

Thanks Kendall.

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 07:42 PM

Some years ago, I did a performance at the Sounding board in Hartford CT. I never stick to folk and traditional stuff strictly, so, I sang "Blue Eyes Crying in the rain" After the program, a young man came to me and said" I really liked that "Willy Nelson song" you did. Well, of course I had to have a bit of sport with him, so, I said Willy who? he stumbled around a while and finally said that "blue eyes song". "Oh, you mean Blue eyes crying in the rain", I said. " then continued, "I learned that song from Roy Acuff back when Nashville was a trading post." He looked puzzled, and walked away. I always love to have fun with young folks who think I'm a lot older than I really am.

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 07:49 PM

Answer for "guest Pete Peterson" ... It's probably about as 'deep and wide' as the wild goose grasses growin' over me! CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 08:40 PM

Kendall ... I know exactly what you mean. Speaking of "mean" ... I've been known to 'set up' youngsters for the inivitable slam that they don't understand. Rather mean of me, but what the heck, at my age I deserve some fun, don't I? I well remember an incedent I witnessed between my Father and a strange teenager. Maybe I should say, a teenager who was a stranger ... or is that redundant? My Dad had just turned 65. He's now 93. He has just received his Col. Sanders Senior Citizen discount card. As we waited in line, he proudly explained to me that he now had lived long enough that he got a ten per cent discount. This youngster, standing in line behind us, spoke up and said, "Gee Mister ... you sure are old!" My Dad didn't even miss a beat. He looked down at the kritter and said, "Keep that up child and you won't even live to be half my age!" The whole restaurant broke out laughing and the kid left. Dad looked at me and smiled!

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 04:27 PM

To Don Firth--

Thank you very much for your long personal remembrance. Now I get it. {There's hope??}

Maybe (he said, looking for the bright side) we're into a Toynbeean "withdrawal and return." Maybe the few who walked out of the coffee houses 'the day the music died' just decided to dig deeper and will someday be back. There is another side of the "Say, 'old man'" syndrome, and that is that if you live into the next generation, you suddenly discover that you actually know quite a bit. I guess the bottom line is that it's our own individual perception of whether we choose to be 'killed' or not.

CC

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 05:41 PM

"chicken Charlie" (who makes up these names) ... very well said. I ain't dead until I SAY SO! CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 05:57 PM

Deckman--

BTW, "Chicken Charlie" headed a minstrel group in California in the 1860's. He was a soldier and I suspect that he made a sideline of making up for quartermaster failures by peddling hot chickens--and I don't mean they burned your fingers. Don't blame me for the monicker; I don't have enough originality.

CC

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 06:02 PM

Hi Kendall, imagine how confused he'd have been if you'd said "Welllll, I always like to throw an Elton Britt song into the program".

Rick

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 07:40 PM

Sounds to me like "chicken Charlie" was trying to feather his own nest! CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From:
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 08:19 PM

Those singer songwriter types got into the Catholic church in the mid sixties and destroyed thousands of years of music (in my opinion..) There were beautiful hymns that we used to sing...that we all knew...and they started having these "folk" masses with music written by Jesuit seminarians as far as I can tell, with good intentions but absolutely no sense of music. I mean, it has been absolutely awful almost everywhere I have been. The music is nothing like folk music, or even music. It doesn't rhyme, it has odd times, like 3/2 going into 5/6 and back to 11/13 all in the same song....I doubt that any parishioner not in the "choir" has ever memorized any of these "songs." And some old hymns are creeping back in..but you are far more likely to see a Protestant hymn...IN THE HYMNBOOK..than a Catholic one. Riddle me this. mg

Subject: RE: How deep do you go musically?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 08:25 PM

I tell my friends if you want to go to a good Catholic Church, go to a Lutheran Church. And offend everyone. Not meaning to. I have been both, and lived through the guitar masses at Catholic churches. After a few years absence, I went to a Catholic service and was astonished at how terible the music was. Much of the liturgy had been simplified, too. I think that there really is more of the old liturgy in the Lutheran Church, and more of the old hymns. Too bad... a loss for the Catholic Church. This seems suspiciously like thread creep, so I'll stop.
Jerry