Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada

Subject: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 04:42 PM

I was fortunate enough to purchase the Aria 5 String Banjo that Charcloth made available on the Mudcat auction.

I am chomping at the bit to get this instrument. However, as I am in Canada I'm not sure about what Red Tape may be involved in getting it up here. If I have Charcloth UPS it here do I have to pay duty and sales taxes? If so, how is the value determined? Does anybody know what the duty rate is?

So Canadian 'Catters, does anyone have any experience with this sort of thing?

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 04:49 PM

Hmmm - I sold some car parts to a guy in Canada and all I did was box it up and UPS it to him. There wasn't any duty or tax that I am aware of.

I did label the box with contents and approximate value (I think it was about a hundred dollars). Hope this helps - you might also call UPS and ask them -

Steve

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Charcloth
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 05:11 PM

When I ship it I am insuring the banjo for $900. I wonder if that will cause a wrinkle with import duties as well
Charcloth

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: VoxFox
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 05:14 PM

My son sold a set of drums to a guy in California and all I did was pack them up and mail them out. No duty, taxes etc but it cost a fortune to send because of the size and weight but I don't think it will cost all that much for a banjo. Good luck. (I'm in NB, Canada so it 's along way to California. :o) ) VF

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 05:23 PM

Nortom 1 and Voxfox,

Thank you for your input. However, I think that the recipient of the package has to pay the duty and/or taxes when it's delivered.

I really need feedback from Canadians who may have purchased something in the U.S. and had it shipped here.

I would also like to say just how impressed I have been with the whole process so far. I was worried about buying a used banjo sight unseen (other than one photo) on the internet. I have probably received 10 e-mails from Charcloth telling me the painstaking steps that he has taken to package this. Heck, he is even using an irreplacable memento given to him by a friend to act as a buffer between the head (which he has losened one turn) and the tailpiece. Based on the care he has shown in packaging I know that this instrument was pampered when he had it.

What a great place this is.

Steve

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Jimmy C
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 05:36 PM

Steve,

Try to get info from Mandolin Brothers, I am sure they have sent some instruments up north and should know about any duty etc. I suspect there may be some kind in import duty levied. Maybe the local post office can shed some light in it. All my banjoes were bought here in Canada. I did buy a lap dulcimer while I was in the states, but I just drove it across the border with no questions asked.

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Bardford
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 05:42 PM

Steve - Canada Customs has a page. Here's some info:

Canada Customs

Do you think a banjo might fall under the "controlled substance" category? :-}

Bardford

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 05:50 PM

Bardford,

Thank you for the link. It has already answered some questions. I'll read it more thoroughly when I get home.

Don't you just love GST?

I know lots of people who have heard me play would probably all for making a banjo a controlled substance.

Steve

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: GUEST,Bluey
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 08:56 PM

Hi. I bought a banjo from Elderly Music in 2000. They sent it up by UPS which was expensive enough, then the delivery man had to collect customs duties. My $922US bill plus freight and duties amounted to close to $1700 Can.!!! Don't tell my wife. Next time I buy an instrument from the US I am driving down and "spiriting" it in. F*ck that!

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:05 PM

Hmmmm - I think I'd take a short and quick vacation to pick it up at those rates!

Steve

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: DonMeixner
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:08 PM

I tried to send Jon some stone slabs for his lapidary experiments but the keep getting returned to me because of customs problems. Maybe we are all a little gun shy about small boxes in the mail. He'll get them eventually but how soon I can't guess.

Don

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:41 PM

I buy quite a bit from the States- Ebay and all that.
Have the shipper enclose an invoice as well as the declaration.
GST of 7% must be paid on Canadian value.
Provincial sales tax must be paid (none in Alberta, about 7% in other provinces)
No duty on musical instruments that I can find.
Be extremely about under-declaring the value. Customs can slap on a value or ask for an evaluation. They can confiscate (a lot of confiscated material is sold at auction)
$900 US = $1440 Can. 7% GST adds $100.80. On top of this, add the provincial sales tax. I est. abt. $1650 total.

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 10:50 PM

Hmm, the more I read of this thread, the better "Plan B" looks.

Thanks for your comments.

Steve

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Leeder
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 11:49 PM

Years ago, my friend Barry Luft bought a banjo in the U.S., put it in an old case and smuggled it into Canada without declaring it or paying duty.

A year later, the police came to his house and confiscated it. He later was able to buy it back at auction, but it cost him about the same amount that he'd paid for it originally. The R.C.M.P. had heard from Canada Customs, who had been in communication with the U.S. authorities, who had been comparing sales receipts with customs declarations, and found that that purchase didn't match up.

I can't imagine that the laws are much different now. I'd be careful...

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Amos
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 11:54 PM

Steve, let me know if you wanna change your mind!!!!

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Anahootz
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 12:02 AM

As copied from the US/Canadian Strategic Banjo Limitation Treaty (Sec.V, part 2, subpart b, paragraph 54a):

"...Before any Party can issue a permit to allow export of Banjos listed in Appendix I or II, the Scientific Authority of the State must advise that the proposed export will not be detrimental to the survival of the local music scene (the so-called non-detriment finding in Article III, paragraph 2(a), and Article IV, paragraph 2(a), of the Convention). The setting of an export quota by a Party in effect meets this requirement by establishing the maximum number of specimens of a Banjo that it will allow over the course of a year that will not have a detrimental effect on the survival of good music. The responsibility for establishing quotas thus lies with each individual Party (unless they have been set by the Conference of the Parties)..."

I hope this clears a few things up.

'Hootz

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 12:20 AM

Don't "stunt" to save a little over $200 in GST and sales taxes. You have to pay the $1440Can. to the seller anyway.
Customs auctions- They have been known to move things around to meet a market. We get some nice watches, etc. here in Alberta because the money is here. A Cartier with box and papers gets 60% or more of its value (say $3000 for a $5000 watch, and you pay GST on top plus 10-15% auctioneers commission. I don't see musical instruments here, prob. sent to Vancouver or Toronto-Montreal (or they may all be declared properly- most good businesses in the States will not give the customer a false invoice- it could come back at them.

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: bill\sables
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 04:01 AM

Not sure about Canada but my friend is forever buying banjos from the US and importing them into the UK. There is a heavy import tax on imported instruments into the UK but not on banjo spares. His way is to get the seller to dismantle the banjo and send it in bits minus the head and strings. When he gets it all he has to do is reassemble it and fit a new head and strings. It is also much easier to package as well.
Bill

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 09:38 AM

Bluey, I'm afraid of that very scenario.

Leeder, I doubt that would happen in a private transaction, but thanks for the heads up.

Amos, nice try, although by Hootz's comments I may not be allowed to bring it into the country. :)

Dicho, thanks for all of that information. As an Ontario resident I am subject to both P.S.T. of 7% and G.S.T. of 8% (I know, I know it's much more on the East Coast). Believe me I have looked at this every way possible. I guess my concern is that some Canada Customs agent might arbitrarily set a value on this instrument and if I don't pay that amount they will seize it. Having said that, although Charcloth is insuring it for $900 (which is probably what it would cost to replace with a new one), I paid $312 for it. My thinking now (and sorry Charcloth if this contradicts the PM I sent you earlier) is that it is pretty well documented that I paid this amount. If we were to print and enclose a copy of the Mudcat Auction Page showing the Auction Closed at $312 and if Charcloth were to photocopy and enclose a copy of the Money Order, then I should be taxed on what I paid for it, about $75 Cdn. I would think that this paperwork would be satisfactory to customs officials.

I am going to call Canada Customs and see if there is duty on a used instrument. I expect that Charcloth will receive my money order today or tomorrow, so I better hurry up and make a decision.

Thank you all again for responding.

Steve

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 11:40 AM

Yes, Steve, get copies of the sale close, etc., and other proof. Have a copy sent to you and also have the sender enclose a copy with the shipment. WHY insure for $900? The insurer (the PO or shipping agency) would ask for proof of price, and would pay out only $312 anyway in case of loss.
In the meantime, Customs values at insured-declared value and assesses on the $900. I had that happen to me once and it was much work to get a re-evaluation and refund (On an item sold on Ebay for $100plus and the seller put $500 value on it).
Note about United Parcel Service- They add a brokerage fee here (Alberta) which is not really required since Customs lets you broker the import yourself. Purolater, on the other hand, has a very small fee ($3.00 or so). I know Purolater is not convenient for some; depends on their depots I guess.
What Bull Sables says doesn't apply since the duty was eliminated long ago, but you are liable for the taxes, GST and Prov., parts or not.

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 12:01 PM

As the banjo is presumably second-hand is it still liable for import duty ?

I'd be more worried that they might want to quarantine it !

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 12:03 PM

Dicho,

That all makes sense. I have been really busy this morning (working) and haven't had a chance to call Canada Customs. You sound pretty sure that there is no duty on instruments. Do you know this to be a fact?

Do you have a rough idea what the broker fee is through UPS? I know that Charcloth has been in touch with them and has also painstakingly packaged this instrument. I don't want to put him through the trouble of checking with Purolator.

Steve

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 12:19 PM

Hmmmmm - I sent a package to a friend across the country once by having several friends take it part way. I wonder if there is an Underground Railway that could facilitate this? At least to get it close enough to where you could drive and pick it up? Just a thought -

Steve

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Charcloth
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 01:15 PM

Never heard of Purolator.

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 01:42 PM

Charcloth,

I thought that Purolator were a big international courier, I guess they're Canadian.

So that's the end of that idea.

Steve

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 01:44 PM

NO duty or tax on musical instruments. There is still a "war-time" tax on jewelry and, of all things, on air-conditioning equipment. The endangered species and the cultural treasures regulations prohibit import and export of these items, but unless the instrument is made of elephant hide ....
Stringed musical instruments, not played with a bow, became free of duty Jan. 1, 1998. (Violins were duty free but guitars, banjos etc, had a duty which was removed in stages for ten years upon the agreement with the US in 1988). I guess violins were considered to be less disruptive of national peace and security. All of these duties are gone now.
Note- visitors bringing materials across the border can be asked to declare them, and insure that they are taken back across the border when they leave.
Thread creep. My daughter imports Navajo jewelry for her old-time boutique. The jewelry tax is payable on necklaces and rings, but the popular silver and turquoise belts are free because they are classified as wearing apparel.

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 02:10 PM

Dicho,

Thank you. That is very helpful.

Steve

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 03:14 PM

"A year later, the police came to his house and confiscated it. He later was able to buy it back at auction, but it cost him about the same amount that he'd paid for it originally. The R.C.M.P. had heard from Canada Customs, who had been in communication with the U.S. authorities, who had been comparing sales receipts with customs declarations, and found that that purchase didn't match up."

Forgive my skepticism.

The ammount of detective work which this would have entailed, not to mention the co-operation between the various bureaucracies, would have been sufficient to track down Bin Laden, never mind a banjo ....

Murray

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 03:35 PM

Comparing sales receipts from specific high cost stores with declarations was a fact of life for a long time. I believe it was a joint US-Canada operation. In the days of imposed duties, merchants who reported the possibility of a false declaration could be rewarded. In any case, reputable jewelers never give a false sales declaration to the customer or anyone else.
I doubt that much is going on except for jewelry, where there is still a government tax of 10%, in addition to sales taxes and GST. I don't know if the US ever removed its duty on jewelry, but Canada hasn't.
Leeder's story was from "years ago." In 1987, the duty on a banjo or guitar would have been 9.2%. If the seller had reported the sale, as some would to get a reward (not paid as often as the stories that were spread around) the scenario is possible.
Your sales tax costs on $320 would be only about $50 and everything is honest and above board.

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 03:53 PM

Does this mean that people buying banjos had to provide proof of identity? If it had been me, knowing the scene, and gifted with half a brain, I would have paid cash for the banjo and told the storekeeper to f--- off if he had asked for ID.

Murray

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 04:05 PM

On any expensive purchase, I certainly would want a proper receipt for proof of ownership and insurance purposes if nothing else. This would have my name and address. I can't imagine anyone wanting it differently unless they were dishonest and wanted to cheat.

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 04:24 PM

Well, I guess it all depends whether you regard evading Canadian import duty as being "dishonest and wanting to cheat". Me, I would regard it as a game. Some you win, some you lose.

As far as the moral aspect of it is concerned , I find the idea of storekeepers snitching to the authorities in the hope of gaining thirty pieces of silver over and above their original profit to be far more reprehensible.

Murray

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Tiger
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 04:56 PM

I like the underground railway approach. Either drive it (in stages) or mail it to a Mudcatter near Detroit or Niagara Falls. Then have him visit Steve, in Ontario, at one of his 'regular song sessions.'

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Willie-O
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 08:33 PM

Yeah, I'm with Murray mostly on grounds of skepticism. When you buy something in a country, you're not under any obligation to sign a declaration that you're keeping it in the country.

If smeone actually got his house searched looking for evidence of a year-old banjo purchase, the cops were looking for something else, and had talked to someone locally who gave them an excuse...just my theory.

If you give em an inch...

W-O

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Willie-O
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 08:35 PM

Yeah, I'm with Murray mostly on grounds of skepticism. When you buy something in a country, you're not under any obligation to sign a declaration that you're keeping it in the country.

If smeone actually got his house searched looking for evidence of a year-old banjo purchase, the cops were looking for something else, and had talked to someone locally who gave them an excuse...just my theory.

If you give em an inch...

W-O

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 09:01 PM

Willie-O, I did not say anything about buying and then signing a declaration to keep it in the country. I was talking about crossing the border with an expensive item and then leaving it there. The Customs Inspectors can require you to register the article with them. If the article does not leave the country with you, it is immediately considered a violation.
Most of my camera gear is either registered with Canada Customs or I carry proofs of purchase in Canada and of ownership with me.
I firmly believe that honesty is the best policy, both on safety and moral grounds.

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Anahootz
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 09:20 PM

Do you really believe that the customs officials are worried about a banjo that is worth maybe $350 on a GOOD day (sorry, steve, but truth) staying in Canada?

Honesty is the best policy until honesty costs you more than half the value of anything you are being honest about.

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 10:12 PM

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 10:22 PM

Sorry about the above. I guess I was saying I'm speachless.

It does add up. I figure about $60 for shipping including the brokerage fees and another $50 for PST & GST. It's not half what I paid, but it's getting there. Convert that to CDN and you're looking at about $175.

What really gets my goat is PST & GST on a used anything. There were taxes paid on this instrument when it was sold new. It wasn't sold in Ontario, so why collect Provincial tax?

I'll figure it out.

Steve

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 04:52 PM

Well, I decided to have this done the proper way. It has been a little more complicated than I thought it might be. Heck, Charcloth phoned me from the Fed Ex depot Lansing, Michigan the other day which is about halfway between his home in Ohio and me. We thought that we had everything worked out in terms of paperwork etc. Well, they have a ridiculously complex set of rules about shipping Ground service to Canada. Our situation didn't fit into their holes. So back to Ohio it went.

I just got confirmation that she has been picked up from Charcloth half an hour ago. I hope to see it Monday.

I need to say what a pleasure it has been getting to know Charcloth. He has bent over backwards to help with this.

I'll keep you posted.

Steve

Subject: RE: Help importing banjo from U.S to Canada
From: Charcloth
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 05:39 PM

You flatter me greatly Steve