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Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST
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Subject: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Steve in Idaho Date: 17 Feb 02 - 12:48 PM Here in a few minutes the Sunday Song Circle will begin - The 1 PM is Mudcat Standard Time - Go to Paltalk and check groups - check the "Show adult" box (we aren't really adult but it gets us past the censors on language for some songs) - and look for us in "Mudcat Song Circle." It's a family circle and we know each other fairly well - so bring your Sunday and spend it with us! Almost all music is welcome (although we do try to keep a blues/folk idea in our heads). No Kareoke, back tracks, or other non live music. What you hear is what you get at our little group! Steve |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Jon Freeman Date: 17 Feb 02 - 02:23 PM Room going well. Even got Mudguard - I think our first German Paltalk visitor! Any more coming along? Jon |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: cyder_drinker Date: 17 Feb 02 - 02:32 PM Me! Be there in a few minutes... |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: GUEST,Bigchuck at work Date: 17 Feb 02 - 02:36 PM Damn, working again. Sandy |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: katlaughing Date: 17 Feb 02 - 02:41 PM I might be up for it in a little while. Thanks, Bro! kat |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: cyder_drinker Date: 17 Feb 02 - 03:37 PM Going well - good crowd in tonight. |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: John Routledge Date: 17 Feb 02 - 03:39 PM Had to leave unfortunately - Excellent tunes and songs with good sound quality even in UK - Try it. John |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: cyder_drinker Date: 17 Feb 02 - 03:51 PM More singers/players needed - running low on performers. Please come on in! |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: GUEST,katlaughing Date: 17 Feb 02 - 04:10 PM Sorry, guys. I won't be able to make it. |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: cyder_drinker Date: 17 Feb 02 - 05:03 PM Still going, but more would be welcome, especially if they have an @dmin hat as I have to go before long! |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Steve in Idaho Date: 17 Feb 02 - 08:34 PM Well I ended up leaving at 5 PM Mudcat time - and the room was still going strong then. I want to Thank MaryinKy for her invaluable assistance in opening and managing the initial onslought of visitors! And to Cyder_drinker for his Admin expertise. And to all of the performers and listeners who came and participated. We had a superb crowd again with a bunch of very talented musicians! I'm really loving this group! Steve |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Jon Freeman Date: 17 Feb 02 - 08:43 PM I enjoyed the earlier stint before going out but it had gone before I got back home unfortunately. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: SDShad Date: 18 Feb 02 - 12:50 AM Well, temperature was in the 50s today, so we spent the bulk of our afternoon doing yardwork--in February! So we came in late, but had fun. Small group by the end, but we heard some very nice sounds. We sang:
Wayfaring Stranger (trad.) What can I say, I've been listening to both the Basement Tapes and Harry Smith's Anthology all this week, so I'm in both trad and Dylan moods simultaneously. Chris |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: MAG Date: 18 Feb 02 - 02:14 PM this was the first time I have been free at the right time and had Paltalk figured out. It was amazing! I've cruised all round Paltalk Help looking for why y'all couldn't hear me; maybe my really cheap mic? When are you doing this again? |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: cyder_drinker Date: 18 Feb 02 - 02:39 PM Next Sunday, 1pm Mudcat Time (6pm UK) |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Jon Freeman Date: 18 Feb 02 - 04:50 PM mag, aslo keep an eye on the threads here - other things happen, some on the spur of the moment. Also, there are a nmumber of very good accoustic rooms which some of us use. A cheap mike should not cause problems with Paltalk. Do you know if you can use it to record an audio file, e.g. use sound recorder to record a .wav file, on your computer? 2 common problems I have known are 1. Having the mic plugged in the wrong socket in the sound card and 2. Wrong settings in volume control. Open volume control, go to Options/Properties and go to adjust volume for recording. Make sure that the microphone is selected and that the volume control is turned up (I'd try about 75% to start with). While checking that, you may find an advanced button under the microphone controls. That will sometimes (all this depends on your sound card) give you the option to use "Mic boost". Some of us have found it is better to have that checked. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: reggie miles Date: 18 Feb 02 - 05:48 PM I finally figured out how to get through last night. In the help section for Paltalk they directed me to the setup settings. Once there I found a preference that simply needed to be clicked and VIOLA! (That's a french word that means you have arriven). It was easy as pie. |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: MudGuard Date: 19 Feb 02 - 04:18 AM sorry, but VIOLA is an Italian word for a string instrument (the one a bit bigger than a VIOLIN). You probably meant voilá! which means (literally translated) "see there!"
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Annie144 Date: 19 Feb 02 - 10:08 AM I had to reinstall Paltalk to access the Mudcat Song Circle. I was a member a while ago but hadn't used it for sometime and so my software needed updating. I've noticed since reinstalling it that I'm getting literally skiploads of advertising spam on the email address that I registered. Is this happening to anyone else? Is it just an occupational hazard of Paltalk membership these days? I enjoyed what I heard of Sunday's session. Unfortunately I wasn't able to be there for long. I thought you must be an old timer at this sort of thing Norton but I see from another thread that you're quite new to it! A. |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: irishajo Date: 19 Feb 02 - 10:29 AM Annie, I just downloaded it the other day. There were a couple of pages worth of 'free email offers' or whatever you call them that you could sign up for. I think I had to uncheck them all - saying I didn't want them. Maybe you didn't do that? I suppose that's what keeps Paltalk free. I haven't gotten any junk mail from them, but do have quite a few pop-ups when I use it. At any rate, I'm glad I figured it out - have been enjoying what I've heard so far immensely. AQ |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 19 Feb 02 - 10:30 AM Annie, I'm getting over 20 spams a day now. I hadn't thought of PalTalk, but maybe that's the culprit. I used to get all the get rich quick spams, but for the last six months or so it's been really hard core sex and porno links. I thought my email addy going up on my church page was the culprit, but it was probably the new version of PalTalk. I would suggest that people use a fake email when registering with PalTalk. (I think this is possible. They don't have to send a password or anything.) |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 19 Feb 02 - 10:33 AM Aimee, I always uncheck the offers, but there was a very noticeable increase in the number and type of spam I receive about six months ago. It's to the point that I'm considering changing my email addy. |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Steve in Idaho Date: 19 Feb 02 - 01:20 PM Another option is to use Norton Firewall, Anti-Virus, Anti-spam software. Clik hereThey are having a special on it right now - it's called Internet Tools I think. I receive about one spam a month since I utilized this all in one software. Really put the control of what I receive in my hands. Glad you all enjoyed the session! And if you don't pay the $19.95 fee for an ad free Paltalk you will get inundated with them!! That is what keeps it free. Never have received any porn though - weird. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: MudGuard Date: 19 Feb 02 - 01:38 PM Norton, is it just chance that you recommand Norton Firewall? I also enjoyed what I was able to hear (sound problems...) I joined Paltalk this week, and had no spam on the email address I used for Paltalk. I usually try to use a new email address for such purposes, so I can easily track down where a spammer has my addy from... |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: nutty Date: 19 Feb 02 - 02:09 PM I have used Paltalk since the beginning and have never had a problem with spam. I also have got the pop-ups under control as I use Netscape and do not let my firewall (Zone Alarm )give access to Internet Explorer (which transmits the pop-ups) when Paltalk is running. |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Steve in Idaho Date: 19 Feb 02 - 03:17 PM LOL @ Mudguard!! I should change that name someday. No - Norton1 is for a 750 Norton I built and raced/rode for several years. It was my e-mail addy for years - just the last few months we changed to the sbarj part. Kind of like an old friend that name - I WISHED I was able to collect a royalty on that!!!! - :-) Steve |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: artbrooks Date: 19 Feb 02 - 06:30 PM Another good way to avoid the ads is to slip PalTalk some money...I think it costs something like $15US to become a PalTalk Plus member, and that eliminates the pop-ups and the ads on the banner. Nutty, I like your solution...could you PM me with the Netscape settings for that? |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Songsmith Date: 20 Feb 02 - 01:52 AM Hello Steve, Thanks for the welcome. I'm knew to all this. What do I need equipment wise to join the Mudcat Song Circle? I'm working in the Middle East and time change may be a concern. Can you give me a little insight as to how this all works? Thanks again Jim "Songsmith" |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: MudGuard Date: 20 Feb 02 - 03:25 AM Songsmith, what you need is:
This will enable you to listen to the group. If you have a microphone attached to the soundcard, you can also sing/make music/talk so others can hear you. There is also a chat going on at the same time.
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Songsmith Date: 20 Feb 02 - 03:34 AM Thanks MudGuard, I'll try and give the next session a listen. Appreciate the help! Jim |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Annie144 Date: 20 Feb 02 - 10:47 AM MQ - about unchecking the offers - the software wouldn't let me proceed any further until I had checked at least three "areas of interest". It seemed that I couldn't join without three ticks somewhere. I found that when I was a member previously too. Mary - the spam isn't porno stuff. It's mostly "get rich quick". I've attached my collection from the last few hours below. The email address I used for Paltalk is one I haven't used for several years so unless an "ex-friend" has added me to someone's list or an address harvesting bot has suddenly got lucky I would tend to think that it has some connection with the Paltalk registration. I can't say that the pop-ups bother me particularly - in fact it's a challenge to see how quickly I can zap them. A. Spam collection:
From: "Matt Morrow"
From: FREE COUPONS
From: TiVoOffer
From: Bargain.com
FROM: "flyfree@milespree.com"
From: RealEstateToolkit |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Feb 02 - 11:09 AM It will run on a Mac if you are running a Windows emulation program. Details here: ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: reggie miles Date: 20 Feb 02 - 11:14 AM Mudguard, that was spose t' be my feeble attempt at humor. |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: irishajo Date: 20 Feb 02 - 11:31 AM That's strange, Annie... I didn't click any areas of interest and it let me right through. I think that was the case, anyway...hard to remember! I wonder if you can go back in and change your registered email address? Anyway, someone sent me a little 'holder' app that holds down the F9 key (as opposed to Ctrl), but I haven't got it to work right yet. Anyone know about this? It's called holder.exe. I haven't had much luck with StickyKeys. I'll blame it on my system. Couldn't possibly be a user problem. Ha. AQ
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Steve in Idaho Date: 20 Feb 02 - 11:53 AM Ah the old "How do I hold the CTRL key down thingy." I found that a stapler resting on it works very well. Just the end of it mind you - but it works well. Sticky keys can "unstick" if there is a lull in the volume caused either by a soft spot in the tune or a blip in the connection. Zapping the popups can be fun - kind of a "Die you sucker!!" Everyone figures their own way of dealing with it holding the key down while performing. I've heard about the program but never used it - so certainly can't help with that. I'm mechanical in nature so using a piece of metal to hold down the ctrl key fits with my perspective on computers. The least amount of programming for the most amount of availabilty!! *G* Good to see this thread answering more questions for this fun time on Sundays!! Steve |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Feb 02 - 11:59 AM How about designating some time or other (or two) as Sound Check time? Yah, I know we can ping oursevvs to see if we are working-- but how about a time to set levels? See, I figger now you'll have several new folks each week... who will need to do the initial setups of their controls. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Steve in Idaho Date: 20 Feb 02 - 12:52 PM Ah Susan - What a great idea! I usually go to a room with only one or two folks in it and ask them - but we could look at opening up a half hour early and doing nothing but sound checks. Or even do the first hour as sound checks. Usually the first hour is me, Toledo, Squiggle, and Cyder. So Let's see what the interest is for a sound check time - I'll start a new thread for this - Steve |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: nutty Date: 20 Feb 02 - 03:04 PM There is a method for getting the mike to stay on within Paltalk itself. First you click on 'Switches' Then you hit the 'Control' button Then you click on 'Timestamp' Then you hit 'Control' again The mike will now stay on independently |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: reggie miles Date: 20 Feb 02 - 03:53 PM nutty, does that mean that everyone can hear everyone else at the same time, like a conference call? If so, then that would be sweet and much more like an actual,in the flesh, song circle. We could actually jam and harmonize live with each other. Just as if we were all sitting around in the den with each other. If we're able to chat as we do with our keyboards we should be able to do it with our mics and pc cams. All at the same time I mean. The screen would have to split to display individual images of each participant. Hey I'm excited to hear this news. |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: MudGuard Date: 20 Feb 02 - 03:57 PM NO. Only one person can have the mike at a time. |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Feb 02 - 04:04 PM And maybe another break in the circle for sound checks as new folk sign in, whenever the room lags, just invite sound checks? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: reggie miles Date: 20 Feb 02 - 04:36 PM Welp, there went that bubble. |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: SDShad Date: 20 Feb 02 - 05:05 PM Actually, reggie, in systems where all mics are always on (or at least multiple mics can be always on), the inherent latency of any audioconferencing would make it so that people couldn't actually harmonize with each other in real time--worse case, it can even lead to you hearing your own voice, delayed, out through their speakers, back in through their mics, and out through your own speakers. It can be pretty weird. I'll gladly settle for one mic at a time given the alternative. Chris |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: John Routledge Date: 20 Feb 02 - 07:19 PM Before actually singing I spent many weeks waiting to dive in at Paltalk but worried about how it would sound - I had never used a microphone before or indeed sung at a computer.(I have been known to shout at it) It is very useful facility to be able to sound check informally and let's hope lots of new performers use it. Happy Mudcat Virtual Sessions/Singarounds John |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Mark Cohen Date: 20 Feb 02 - 07:27 PM Aimee Q, if you send me a Mudcat private message with your email address (go to "Quick Links" at the top of the page and scroll down to "Send a Personal Message"), I will attempt to send you the "Control Holder" program. Works for me. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: reggie miles Date: 21 Feb 02 - 11:38 AM Chris, I understand what you're saying about feedback but if we can make a conference call with a telephone, which is essentially how I'm presently connected (via a phone line) and (btw I'm paying much more for this service than I ever have for my regular phone service), then why is it that we can't do the same via this hunk o' junk in front of me? I've paid enough for this thing that if I wanted it to get up and dance a gig it should comply. We're using the same phone line to connect to web. Is it the varied abilities of each indiviual's equipment that's the issue. If so then certainly those who have cameras will be able to see each other, just as those who have speakers can hear each other, and those who have mics can speak to each other, while those who have merely a keyboard or wish to only use it and not the rest to communicate could Is it because, with a phone we have a headset to our ear that separates the signals produced audibly and vocally so that feedback is not an issue? Or is it that there are not enough standards yet in place to allow connecting in this way? It just seems to me that there have been enough folks who have invested enough cashola in all of this that the idea of communicating in a conference manner should be possible without delay or feedback problems being a great issue. Via television news casts I've seen the delay factor you mentioned as reporters have used satellite phones and cameras to send info back from remote locations. It often takes a few extra seconds for the audio signal to be heard and for the field person's response to be received. As it stands now what we have a kind of walky talky way of communicating where only one person can be heard at a time. Is the problem not enough bandwidth? Will this idea be possible at some future date? Am I just wanting all those scifi movie scenes of people communicating in that way to become a reality when it is presently impossible? Should I just take a chill pill and lower my expectations and come back to earth? |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: wysiwyg Date: 21 Feb 02 - 11:47 AM As I understand it, the sound we get from PalTalk is not always in real time-- if you're getting "buffered" there is a lag from what is sung to what you hear. So if you sang back you'd be a verse behind! And then others would lag in hearing that.... ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Steve in Idaho Date: 21 Feb 02 - 08:17 PM HI Reggie - There is a lot of work going on with this technology. The speed at which a wire can carry a signal is limited. Signals from the various parts of the country would indeed, as Susan mentioned, lag and coordinating these things is a techno that has not yet come into its own. I think that it will come. As far as the amount of money we spend on this stuff? It would ordinarily be more than enough to make it possible. But you're a Folkie and think that justice and good will prevail *BG*. Well let me tell you Brother - it is here to sell you something and not to help you out. Just take a gander at TV - look at the good it could have done. Where are the community items located? Midnight - long after those who want to know have gone to bed. No money on them. But when this technology comes I expect to pay a price for it. And the first version will have us all wanting to find who developed it and do strange things to them (The Kinky Side of Me by Merlynn Haygard)- but we'll persist and so will those who do this. And after I am dead it will magically begin working!! Until then I will listen to those I do not know, but marvel at, and pick along in my own space in time. Steve - This has really turned into a sweet little thread - ya know? My little parody for the day :-) |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Jon Freeman Date: 21 Feb 02 - 08:34 PM Just one note on the real time stuff. I mentioned it in a room last week and dabigdawg said he had managed to set something up that worked with DolphinSurfer that sounded interesting - maybe worth following up, although I think they were situated fairley close to each other and I'm not clear they were using Paltalk... Maybe worth following up... (For those that don't know them, dawg and dolphin are not 'catters but regulars and excellent musicians who frequent the live Paltalk rooms). Jon
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: wysiwyg Date: 21 Feb 02 - 09:13 PM LOL, Steve! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: SDShad Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:03 PM Reggie, when you're talking over the phone, the phone is just sending a real-time analog signal over the lines. There actually is a delay between you speaking and the receiver hearing, but it's so tiny that you'd never really perceive it--electronic signals and light travel incredibly fast, but they are not instantaneous. I've never actually tried it, but I imagine you could sing a song together with someone on the other end and neither of you'd ever notice the difference. When you're doing PalTalk over the Internet via a regular land-line dialup, what you say is converted into a digital signal by your computer; then it's converted back into analog by your modem (not the actualy sound of your voice, but an analog encoding of the digital stream, which has already now been divided up into small, manageable chunks called "packets"). This step doesn't happen, by the way, on my cable modem connection, but there is a conversion process of some kind at the cable modem anyway--I'm not up on the tech there. Your ISP's modem converts the analog version of those data packets back into digital. From there the packets bounce around the Internet via routers, until they gets to PalTalk's servers, and then the whole shebang happens again in reverse as your voice comes chugging our way over the wires via varying formats and technologies. Also involved is distance; your mention of satellite phones is apropos. Like a land line, a cell phone connection doesn't cover enough distance for you to consciously notice the delay. No avoiding it with satellite trasmission of any kind. Some of the musicians at the London and Philadelphia(?) ends of Live Aid were very disappointed to find that they wouldn't be able to sing with each other across the ocean. (Arthur C. Clarke in one of his novels depicts the befuddlement of political officials who can't understand why real-time communication between Mercury and Jupiter isn't possible.) In data networks, though, "distance" doesn't mean the physical length of the lines connecting you, but the number of "hops" between various pieces of connected networking equipment. So this situation is much more like a satellite phone than a conventional one, although latency is built in to the process for different reasons. The first element of latency is physical distance--tiny in itself unless you're going via satellite. The second is logical distance: the number of hops. The third is processing time on every computer, modem, and router along those hops. The fourth is bandwith. I'm not sure I completely agree with Steve--until they're ever able to come up with a way to get around the lightspeed limit in communications (don't laugh; some day we may find it's possible with tachyons), and build unbelievably fast routers with incredibly fast and reliable pipes between them, I don't see real-time sing-togethers being a possibility. In short, a quantum-leap in technology. I won't say never and be made a fool, though. Now, more than one mic being open at a time is another matter entirely, and trivial--NetMeeting does it, and PalTalk does it in one-on-one chat. But true real-time simultanaety (sp?) is another matter entirely--using NetMeeting through an MPCS server on our own campus, over a 100 megabit ethernet network, there's still noticeable latency. In short, apples and oranges. Chris, networking guy |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com Date: 21 Feb 02 - 11:20 PM hi..I went on a test Paltalk and they could hear me but I could not hear anyone. Sound comes out of my computer so I think it is OK...something is probably not set right..any ideas? mg |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: jacko@nz Date: 21 Feb 02 - 11:42 PM guest mgarvey, are you running a firewall? you may need to lower the threshold until you make contact if you come into paltalk now i'll watch out for you Jack |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Steve in Idaho Date: 21 Feb 02 - 11:58 PM Chris is correct about not agreeing with me - I'm not sure I would either. What makes me believe they will come up with something is a new technology using light as a projection force. An inventor here in the states has figured out how to use light to launch solid objects into the air. Only about 15-20 feet - but do you get the implication? It's like the guy who walked into Zerox with a faint copy he had made - now all copies are called Zeroxs. The guy who launched the little metal cones was just a hack - like you or me - and had a different idea. So when I say it's coming - I believe it. Now Chris is a lot sharper tack than I am *BG* and I Love him like a Brother. He sings almost as well as his partner Beth, plays a great guitar, and is one of the nicest folks you'd ever want to meet. But he just doesn't understand modern technology. Course - neither do I. But we can certainly dream!! Steve |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Amergin Date: 21 Feb 02 - 11:58 PM boy...i have not gone to paltalk in almost a year.....might have to make a reappearance some day.... |
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Subject: RE: Mudcat Song Circle-17 February -1PM MST From: Steve in Idaho Date: 21 Feb 02 - 11:59 PM Yes you should Amergin - Be nice to put a voice to you - Steve |
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