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BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: tremodt Date: 25 Feb 02 - 12:47 PM whatever |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Richard Bridge Date: 24 Feb 02 - 02:05 PM I know an ex para who runs a folk club. A very nice bloke. Judge not.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Gareth Date: 24 Feb 02 - 12:53 PM No Kevin - I think the late Stan Rogers did it better, Gareth |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Feb 02 - 12:42 PM Maybe someone can post Ewan MacColl's Second Front Song, and we can really get tore into one another. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Ditchdweller Date: 24 Feb 02 - 12:16 PM I was under the impression that the American Revolution of 1776 was mainly carried out by ENGLISHMEN and American colonialists of English descent. At the time there were very few people of Irish descent in the colonies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Ferret Date: 23 Feb 02 - 11:06 PM Is that the 1941-45 war or the 1939-45 war |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: tremodt Date: 23 Feb 02 - 08:51 PM ok you call me a shamrock yank fine you say i am running down all brit soldiers you go on to say that the brits stood by us and fought alongside us lots of times I am Irish decent I am not running down all brittish soldiers I merely said thaT THE PARAS again were in a shooting situation 30 years after the same thing happened in derry But bear in mind in 1776 we fought against yes and we shamrock yanks fought against you for independence and we won it just like the people of Ireland did in 1920 and as the people in NOrthern Ireland are doing now to seek independence so when you talk about shamrock yanks they are the ones that invaded europe in 43 to save you again |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Ditchdweller Date: 23 Feb 02 - 01:59 PM Can I just say something to the Shamrock Yanks who seem to take such delight in running down British servicemen? These lads, soldiers, sailers and airmen are the sons and grandsons of those who fought alongside your fathers and grandfathers. Their fathers and grandfathers also fought their way ashore at Anzio, Salerno and Normandy and then fought their way to Germany. They held the Japanses army at Imphal Kohima to help turn back the tide. After the kamakaze bounced off the carrier flight deck, they filled the dent in with concrete and within two hours were flying off in support of your fathers and grandfathers. They are the sons and grandsons of the men of the Gloucesters who held and delayed the Chinese attacks in Korea. They are also the same lads who fought alongside your boys in the Gulf. Yes mistakes have been made. I consider that the officer in charge of the Paras on Bloody Sunday ought to have been Court Marshalled for loosing control of his men. But despite that, please remember that we have fought alongside you for most of the past 100 years in the cause of freedom and democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Gareth Date: 22 Feb 02 - 06:22 PM You could link to this thread Click 'Ere Gareth |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: tremodt Date: 21 Feb 02 - 08:16 PM I agree |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: John Routledge Date: 21 Feb 02 - 06:40 PM Yes Gareth Thanks for the poem - it summed up the thrust of the thread perfectly. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: tremodt Date: 21 Feb 02 - 01:47 PM again I say thank you all for your opinions I welcome them all Iron were shat on by all it is true that the brits army in Norn Iron were shat on by all and Gareth that was a beautiful poem i will treasure it thanks ron |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Feb 02 - 01:22 PM So improved technology means that things are more likely to go wrong, Teribus? Likely enough, that seems to be how it works with our computers.
I'm all for waiting until things have been properly investigated before coming to conclusions. But to be trusted investigations have to be genuinely and demonstrably independent, not carried out by the colleagues of the people involved, which is the almost universal procedure so far.
As I've pointed out, there's as much room for scapegoating as for whitewashing in those curcumstances. There was an Australian film called "Breaker Morant", set in the Boer War, which was about precisely that .
Roll on an impartial international war crimes tribunal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Dead Horse Date: 21 Feb 02 - 12:46 PM Dear RO1SIN, I was not fighting the people of Northern Ireland, nor did I claim to have been at war. I was ordered there to help *keep the peace* as were the paras in question. In war things are a bloody sight more simple for the common soldier. You know who the enemy is, and you shoot the bugger or he shoots you. As a *peace keeper* you get shat on from all directions, not least by those who you are obstensibly protecting. In Northern Ireland it was initially the catholic minority we were defending from the excesses of protestant bigots. Then we ended up in the middle of a sectarian fued, fuelled by bigots on both sides. It was in N.I. that I learned not to believe anything untill I had seen it for myself, to treat propoganda for what it was worth, and to beware of *friendly* natives, whatever their religeon, creed or ethnic background, and to trust only my comrades. Unless you have served in some sort of uniform, this may seem strange, but it is a fact of life. I feel sorry for the victims in both cases, but have perfect understanding of the soldiers lot. Death to the bigot. That may or may not include yourself! Only you can tell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Teribus Date: 21 Feb 02 - 08:45 AM From RO1SIN sitting in the USA: "I started the thread to point out the fact that the parasfired on innocent people in Afganastan about the 30 annerversary of them firing on the people in Derry..." From Guardian Reporter in Afghanistan: "They had just got into the car when they were engulfed in a sudden and deadly hail of gunfire - allegedly from British troops concealed in the darkness at the top of an observation tower several hundred metres away." I believe there is a difference between "fact" and "alleged". As I requested in my earlier posting - can we please wait until the preliminary findings of the ongoing investigation are reported before aportioning blame? As for: "...and by the way Dead Horse would you have us believe being stationed in Northern Ireland was "wartime " Conditions akin to being a in a actual war zone and not fighting the people of norn iron, duh...." Hey RO1SIN ask the US Marines who were in Beirut or in Somalia whether or not they thought they were in a war zone or not? Technically speaking they were not, but that didn't make it any less lethal from their point of view. The British troops stationed in "norn iron" were not put there to fight, nor have they ever fought, the people of "norn iron". On the other hand, the PIRA, the INLA, the Continuity IRA and the Real IRA all declared war on the British Government and their representatives in "norn iron" and proceeded to slaughter and maim lots of people from "norn iron". That to me (and I was there on two occasions), along with a few good hints such as indiscriminate bombings, shootings, punishment beatings, knee-cappings, etc, qualified it as being on active service. And believe me the stresses are there whether it has been declared a "war zone" or not, in many ways it is much worst. McGarth of Harlow brought up the Vincennes incident as an example of how things can go wrong: "Remember, the commander of the Vincennes who shot down an Iranian civilian airliner was exonerated and decorated." The primary duty of the commanding officer of any ship be it warship or merchantman is the safety of his ship and his crew - he has no other consideration. A little story for you Kevin about a similar incident in the 1960's. At the time Indonesia wanted to take over Borneo. Under the terms of their treaty of independence Britain was obliged to defend Malaysia, Singapore, Sarawak, Borneo and Sahbah. HMS Hampshire, deploying out to Singapore entered the Malacca Straits with the intelligence brief that the Indonesian Airforce had at least one operational squadron of TU-16 Bombers (NATO designation Badger)it was not known whether or not these aircraft were capable of launching stand-off weapons (Kelt missiles). The ship went to defence watch cruising stations at the limit of the Badgers range. Electronic detectors picked up an aerial x-band radar in search mode, while the ship was in the Malacca Straits, the ship went to action stations. (Now at this time in the Royal Navy - the only person who could give the open fire order was the Captain - nobody else). The aerial radar then went from search mode to acquired, by this time the ships main and secondary weapons systems where locked onto the target and tracking. The ranges were being called out and the situation was getting a trifle tense. The captain ordered hold fire until a positive identification could be made. With the radar still in acquired mode the director calls down "Aircraft bearing Green 90, target visual, identified Boeing 707, aircraft type confirmed Boeing 707." Directors were ordered off target and weapons trained fore and aft. On analysis of the general operations plot at the time the aircraft's radar went from search to acquire, the aircraft, ship and the radar beacon for Kuala Lumpur airport were on a transit (i.e. in a straight line). The aircraft was a freighter flying in from South Africa and was looking for KL airport. Under his rules for engagement the captain of the Hampshire would have been perfectly within his rights to open fire having been given his intelligence briefing. He didn't because he saw that the aircraft was flying straight and level at high altitude (easy target), that if it did launch a Kelt missile the weapons systems could target that (speed about 600 knots). That happened over 35 years ago and the captain of the Hampshire had those optional luxuries. Times and technology have changed a great deal. The Vincennes is an Aegis ship - a force defence vessel. The capabilities of the Aegis system are formidable and automatic, the system was designed to protect a group of ships from multiple threats, as such it reacts extemely rapidly - it has to. The Iranians were advised not to fly, they ignored that advice and the Aegis system on the Vincennes detected a target, the commanding officer of the Vincennes fulfilled his primary duty to his ship and ship's company. It is a regretable fact that in tense situations if you ignore restrictions in force or advice given, you should not be surprised if consequences are extreme.
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Feb 02 - 08:21 PM Either they're whitewashed, to protect the people above them, or they are scapegoated, once again to protect the people above them. The Masters of War always stay clear of trouble. And well clear of danger.
And that doesn't matter where you are.
With the very rare exception of cases like Milosevic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Gareth Date: 20 Feb 02 - 07:31 PM Chrs " Not for them a judge or jury, Not for them a trial at all, Being 'Brit's' Means we're guilty, So we're guilty one and all !"
"Journalists, and armchair patriots,
"Sitting in a bar in Boston,
"Or perhaps a bar in Dublin,
"But don't forget the real ambition,
(Slowly) Not my best, but what the hell. Gareth
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: tremodt Date: 20 Feb 02 - 05:21 PM Ro1sin is not a female The reason That I choose to call to Londonderry, or Derry "Doire is because I ME choose to I started the thread to point out the fact that the parasfired on innocent people in Afganastan about the 30 annerversary of them firing on the people in Derry of which the british have whitewashed all that happed there and has waited 30 years to complete an investigation.. I am a Brit Hater, no indeed !I love Britain and the people, Do I hate the british soldiers that were in N. Ireland, no, I dont because i am too far removed from the situation to know what goes on there Guest whoever what does this mean "As for the Irish element? you would hijack a Walt Disney thread to further your aims" duh.. I do thank all who have responded to my thread and voicved their opinions with out hiding under the name GUEST all I am saying is " will there be a investigation or will it be deemed more important than the Irish men than were killed or 0f the same importance therefor nullifying any investigation at least for 30 years or so and by the way Dead Horse would you have us believe being stationed in Northern Ireland was "wartime " Conditions akin to being a in a actual war zone and not fighting the people of norn iron, duh....
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: tremodt Date: 20 Feb 02 - 05:12 PM Ro1sin is not a female The reason That I choose to call to Londonderry, or Derry "Doire is because I ME choose to I started the thread to point out the fact that the parasfired on innocent people in Afganastan about the 30 annerversary of them firing on the people in Derry of which the british have whitewashed all that happed there and has waited 30 years to complete an investigation.. I am a Brit Hater, no indeed !I love Britain and the people, Do I hate the british soldiers that were in N. Ireland, no, I dont because i am too far removed from the situation to know what goes on there Guest whoever what does this mean "As for the Irish element? you would hijack a Walt Disney thread to further your aims" duh.. I do thank all who have responded to my thread and voicved their opinions with out hiding under the name GUEST all I am saying is " will there be a investigation or will it be deemed more important than the Irish men than were killed or 0f the same importance therefor nullifying any investigation at least for 30 years or so
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Megan L Date: 20 Feb 02 - 04:17 PM As part of the ideals in action course the red cross asks people to think like a soldier, a series of statements are then read out and you have to decide how you would react. It always suprises me how many people have no concept of what it it to be a soldier, the difference between innocent civilians and "your son was killed in action" can be a fraction of a second. Its so easy to be self righteous sitting in your comfy armchair if it not your damb son risking his life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Feb 02 - 03:32 PM I grieve for the victims of course, but the Paras are there as a peace keeping force trying to give Afghans the peace they have been denied for twenty plus years. And who else is offering to perform that singularly thankless role? Brit soldiers are are on the ground in trouble spots the world over, not overflying but on patrol with a rifle. If the poor scroats, months without seeing home, trying to sustain relationships by mail and pathetically brief phone calls, have screwed up they will surely pay. This is not 1970. A little gratitude for what they are attempting would not be unreasonable to expect. Yes makin' mock o uniforms that guard you while you sleep Is cheaper than them uniforms,an' there starvation cheap. Keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: GUEST,Ano Date: 20 Feb 02 - 10:34 AM I'm Irish and proud of it but I don't call Dublin...Baile Atha Cliath!...Nor do I call Cork...Corcaigh!!So I don't call Derry...Doire!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: GUEST Date: 20 Feb 02 - 10:25 AM Interestingly enough, noone ever says Innocent Soldiers. There may be innocent bystanders and non combatants, but in a civil war or terrorist action, very few people wear iniforms. You people sling mudshite at everything without evidence or thought. Take a long break and look at the evidence; then try to make an educated thread on the same subject. This one just shows your usual lack of moral judgement and common sense. As for the Irish element? you would hijack a Walt Disney thread to further your aims. Give us all a rest, and discuss the topic rather than airing your worn out and tired subject matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: GUEST Date: 20 Feb 02 - 06:35 AM I should have thought it was perfectly obvious why RO1SIN uses the spelling Doire instead of Derry or Londonderry. She( I assume) is Irish and proud of it. So she uses the Irish spelling. Which bit of that can't you understand? You may disagree, that's your privilege, but your wilful misunderstanding seems patronising and offensive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: GUEST,Y Date: 20 Feb 02 - 05:55 AM Ro1sin..I notice you call Derry/Londonderry....Doire. Why??.....Do you call Paris..Paree(French pronunciation) or Copenhagan...Kobenhavn? etc etc.... It seems strange. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: InOBU Date: 20 Feb 02 - 04:53 AM I find it worrysome when citizens in two democracies, disscussing in a rather civil fashion, given the viseral issues here, are referred to as enguaging in "trolling..." I think folks have been showing the best tradition in this forum, when it comes to discussing Ireland and the US and Britain, and conducting themselves in ways that would not get us tossed out of most pubs. So, Snuffy, relax, democracy is at work here. Cheers all... Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: michaelr Date: 19 Feb 02 - 08:12 PM Teribus - I made no statement concerning anyone's guilt or innocence. I merely questioned the originial poster whether it surprised him that innocent people were getting hurt in Afghanistan. The U.S. war-which-isn't-war has been, in my opinion, a misguided venture from the beginning, as there is little hope of apprehending the actual perpetrators of the 9-11 atrocity. That British paratroopers are involved in the hostilities has, to my mind, little to do with Bloody Sunday. Michael |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Snuffy Date: 19 Feb 02 - 07:40 PM DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Feb 02 - 06:39 PM Let us not fall into the trap of keeping a guard dog and then complaining when it bites people! Whether we agree that armed forces are required or not is not really in discussion here. But while there are armed forces, be they official or otherwise, there will be loss of innocent life. Don't blame the soldiers - they just do what they are paid for. Blame their paymasters - Us!
Dave the Gnome It's Tommy this and Tommy that and 'Chuck 'im out the brute' |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Dead Horse Date: 19 Feb 02 - 05:26 PM Served alongside the paras in Belfast. Hated 'em. Biggest load of braggarts and bullshitters I ever met. But I was bloody glad they were near to hand if I was in trouble. I was actually attached to an artillery unit, who were some of the nicest blokes I met in the army, but they were totally useless as front line soldiers. However much I dislike the gung-ho types of elite fighting units, be happy they are on your side, and don't criticise their actions unless YOU were there, in person, and under their stress of battle conditions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: GUEST Date: 19 Feb 02 - 04:59 PM The car was being used to transport a pregnant woman to get assistance. However there was a curfew in place, and the occupants did not attempt to contact authorites, they just started up and drove... Hence... Bullets... Young soldiers have to take war seriously. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: wildlone Date: 19 Feb 02 - 02:07 PM But of course the whole world knows that the dreaded horned beast of biblical legend wears a para smock. dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Feb 02 - 02:05 PM I didn't say anything about "oh it's obvious", in terms of why the shooting happened, because it's not.
It's pretty clear that the car that was shot up was full of innocent people. That's another matter. As Grab said, there could be reasons why this happened which mean that it was a tragic accident which was noone's fault.
Maybe there will be a proper investigation which identifies what happened, and who is responsible for what happened, and what can be done to stop it happening again. Too often in the past, and that includes the recent past, the investigation have fudged the issue.
The headlines focus on the incident briefly, there are strong words about there being a throrough investigation -but most of the time the results of the investagation are subject to a lot less media attention when they do come out. The caravan has moved on.
I don't think I'm cynical - a cynic doesn't want to be proved wrong in his complaints. I am however sceptical, and would be very happy to be proved wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Grab Date: 19 Feb 02 - 12:13 PM The soldiers said they were fired on. The civilians who got shot say they weren't armed. So maybe the soldiers got nervous and shot first (this is in the dark, in a city full of ppl with guns). Maybe the civilians got nervous (or thought that the soldiers were Afghan militia) and shot first (just bcos they're civilians doesn't mean they're unarmed, especially in Afghanistan!). Maybe someone else fired on the soldiers, and the soldiers thought it came from the car. Until they investigate, we'll never know. And until that's happened, Roisin and Kevin would illustrate their intelligence better by not saying "oh it's obvious". Never mind trying to link it to what happened 30 years ago in Derry, which is the worst example I've ever seen of racial prejudice on Mudcat, Roisin (why not just say "the only good Brit is a dead Brit" and at least make your position clear?) Bloody Sunday was 30 years back, in a time when governments _did_ routinely cover this shit up. Remember that at the same time, the US army was routinely slaughtering civilians in Vietnam, and the US President was routinely ordering criminal acts. A bad time, and no-one wants to see it again. In case no-one's spotted, many mistakes have been made in war zones in the past - bombing a Muslim civilian convoy in Bosnia, blowing up the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, or bombing Northern Alliance positions, a convoy of government ministers and a Red Cross hospital in Afghanistan. In all these cases, there has been an investigation, and they've said openly that this mistake was made. Is there any reason why Roisin and Kevin think that there'll be a coverup on this particular one? Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Feb 02 - 12:08 PM Yes, I'm hoping there will be a proper investigation that doesn't turn into a whitewash, and I think that is at least possible, and the Guardian story holds open the door to that. It's just that the precedents aren't too good, in any army, in any country. Lord Justice Widgery, for example.
Not just the paras, not just the British. Remember, the commander of the Vincennes who shot down an Iranian civilian airliner was exonerated and decorated. And I can't believe anybody is going to get into trouble for some of the appalling massacres of civilians by aerial bombardment that have happened over the past few weeks, well after the collapse of the Taliban.
And the whitewashing, when it happens, isn't to protect people who actually do the firing, it's the people above them who lay down and enforce the rules of engagement and authorise the bombing raids and the targetting procedures and so forth who are being protected. And their political masters. (And if need be the same end can be achieved by making scapegoats out of the people who actually do the firing, as a way of saving those above them from any close scrutiny or blame.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Jock Morris Date: 19 Feb 02 - 12:00 PM The fact is that none of us were there to witness the events in Afganistan or in Derry 30 odd years ago; all we can do is listen to the story as told by both sides and make a decision who we believe. What we shouldn't do is jump to opinions based on nothing more than long held prejudices. The evidence I've heard so far from Afganistan seems to suggest that in this case some young squaddies did get trigger happy, but we need to wait and hear the result of the investigation that is underway. As to Derry, I've heard contradicting evidence from both sides, but only it seems from people with a political axe to grind. Both sides so distrust the other that whatever is said by one the other will deny, so I doubt we'll ever know the truth of what happened that Sunday. Personally I suspect that both sides are guilty of covering up the facts they don't want to hear. Scott |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: InOBU Date: 19 Feb 02 - 11:27 AM Actually, all this is really quite serious. (Too serious to call someone out on being as bad a speller as I am proud to be). In fact the US HAS made errors or committed attrocities as the fact will bear out if ever there is proper investigation. There was a PBS story about an Afganie American woman who returned to her village to see how the war is affecting her family, to find that the US had attacked her village from the air, bombing houses and then straffing women and children at low level from helicopters - tree level. 19 of her family were killed. I don't see how we in New York are made more safe by killing women and children in other lands. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Feb 02 - 10:21 AM Hee hee, and what about the British accidentally invading Spain? |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: tremodt Date: 19 Feb 02 - 10:19 AM Teribus you make sense in your posting and we will wait 2 weeks or 20 weeks or 30 years maybe to find out whatwent on in Doire for the whitewash Hail Britania ! ro1sin |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Teribus Date: 19 Feb 02 - 04:52 AM SOS Well said LTS!! RO1SIN - Where was posting covering the US attack on the convoy of Afghan tribal leaders travelling to attend the conference in Kabul???? They too were innocent civilians and in that particular incident the loss of life was much greater. The explanation offered at the time was that the US had evaluated it as a bona fide military target and "took it out" and obviously you were quite happy with that explanation - no enquiry - case closed. But in this case you typically jump in and prejudge the entire issue before all the facts are known. At least in this case an investigation has been started. michaelr - You too seem to be better informed than those investigating the case, as you also have decided on the guilt of those involved without factual evidence. McGarth of Harlow - Thanks for the link to the Guardian Story, which I read before going on to read your contribution, which stated: "Seems pretty clear this was a case of innocent people being shot up, and noone's actually denying that. Doesn't sound like the kind of calculated act of state terror that Bloody Sunday was widely assumed to be - which maybe might mean that there will be a proper investigation that finds out the truth and identifies what went wrong and who carries the blame for it. But that doesn't seem too likely really - it never happens, just more cover ups and whitewashes that make everyone assume the worst." Was the link wrong? Or was your statement above based on something else you read on the incident? I ask these questions because from the Guardian article we read: "The British military was taking the allegations seriously and, along with Afghan police, launched an urgent investigation yesterday into the shooting." "Six British soldiers from the 2nd battalion the Parachute Regiment have been removed from their observation post near where the incident occurred, a Ministry of Defence spokesman said." "Early on Saturday morning there was a firing incident in which one man was killed and four other people wounded. We cannot confirm or deny anything until we have a special investigation branch report," an official said. Col Neal Peckham, spokesman for the British-led international security assistance force (Isaf) stationed in Kabul, insisted last night that his paratroopers had returned fire." "Mr Ishaq, a teacher, said yesterday that he was aware of Kabul's strict 9.30pm curfew but claimed it was not uncommon for vehicles to move later than that in times of emergency." "Col Peckham yesterday said Afghan and British military investigators were unlikely to reach any firm conclusions for a "couple of weeks"." "Under their rules of engagement, sanctioned by the UN, members of the international force can fire in self-defence or to protect the lives of others in imminent danger of being killed. If the investigation concluded the paratroopers were being "trigger happy", they would be in "serious trouble", a defence official said." "A forensic team has already taken away the bullet-ridden car involved in Saturday's shooting for examination. The team also retrieved dozens of bullets from the scene." It also states in the article: "They had just got into the car when they were engulfed in a sudden and deadly hail of gunfire - allegedly from British troops concealed in the darkness at the top of an observation tower several hundred metres away." From the article we get the following: 1. There is an investigation underway now - No maybe or might about it Kevin. 2. No one has denied that the incident took place and at present there is only the allegation that those fired upon were fired at from the Paratroopers position. But you know better don't you Kevin - Get thee sen over to Kabul Kev and give your evidence to those investigating the incident. 3. Where in the article does it intimate in the remotest terms any intention on behalf of ISAF, Afghan Police or Interim Government to whitewash or cover up this incident. The earliest findings from the current investigation are expected in about two weeks time according to the article. Why not just wait and see what those findings are -is that too unreasonable a notion.
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Tone d' F Date: 19 Feb 02 - 04:13 AM I have to agree with GUEST [even if I dont know which one it is] If you train someone to kill, give them a gun, put them in a dangerous or life threatening position what do you think is going to happen? They arn't going to swap Pokemon cards tackle the cause not the symptoms AND THERES NO NEED TO SHOUT were intelligent adults and are quite able to read a thread we wish to read and to quote the last post "In this case it seems a little early to judge, unless prejudice can be a substitute for facts" |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: GUEST Date: 19 Feb 02 - 03:24 AM Whenever and wherever guns are deployed there will, sooner or later, be shooting, and sooner or later the innocent will be hurt. The answer IMO is not to ban the guns, but to tackle the reason for their deployment, then we might stand a chance. Just as any self-aware individual has things in the past which he/she regrets and wishes could be otherwise, I doubt that there's a single military unit anywhere without something regretable in its history, whether it is acknowledged or not. In this case it seems a little early to judge, unless prejudice can be a substitute for facts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Liz the Squeak Date: 19 Feb 02 - 12:40 AM And the Americans NEVER fire on innocent civilians or their own allies??? Check out a) history, b) news reports c)casualty lists from every engagement that the US army have been in since the beginning of LAST century. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Feb 02 - 09:43 PM Here's the Guardian story about it
Seems pretty clear this was a case of innocent people being shot up, and noone's actually denying that. Doesn't sound like the kind of calculated act of state terror that Bloody Sunday was widely assumed to be - which maybe might mean that there will be a proper investigation that finds out the truth and identifies what went wrong and who carries the blame for it.
But that doesn't seem too likely really - it never happens, just more cover ups and whitewashes that make everyone assume the worst. Civilians getting shot by soldiers in this kind of situation is hardly an unusual thing to happen, there's an inevitability about it; the only unusual things about Bloody Sunday were that it happened so close to "home", and that it was very hard to paint it as an accident. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 18 Feb 02 - 09:25 PM No, I was not there.But I know a few people that were, (many members of 3 Para are from Hull).However I have no wish to discuss this matter with you or anyone else.john |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Coyote Breath Date: 18 Feb 02 - 09:14 PM oooh testy! I took the pledge! |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: tremodt Date: 18 Feb 02 - 09:13 PM was you there ??? and you dont like my spelling???? shagg off |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 18 Feb 02 - 08:46 PM You spelt innocent & Afghanistan wrong, And how do you know they were innocent? Was you there? |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: DougR Date: 18 Feb 02 - 08:19 PM Evidently. It's all in caps. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: WHAT DID THE BRITISH PARACHUTE REGIMENT From: michaelr Date: 18 Feb 02 - 07:32 PM This surprise you? |