African American folk artists

Subject: African American folk artists
From: GUEST,Donny W.
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 02:33 PM

Since it is African American Heritage Month, aka Black History Month, I think it would be good to pay tribute to the African American folk (including blues) artists whose contrbutions to our folk music heritage are so immense.

Some that I would like to thank are Leadbelly, Mississippi John Hurt, Robert Johnson, Odetta, Josh White, Kim and Reggie Harris, Gus Cannon, Jesse Fuller, Eric Bibb, Sweet Honey In The Rock, Sparky Rucker and Big Bill Broonzy.

Please add more names to this honor roll.

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 02:41 PM

don't forget the masters of the Louisiana French culture, heroes that made the music like Amadee Ardoin and Clifton Chenier and those that work hard to keep it going still like Gino Delafose and JC Gallow

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 03:02 PM

Well from Son House to Keb Mo, from the Piedmont to the Delta with stops in Chicago and Memphis, there must be at least several hundred WELL known, not to mention a host of others........

Spaw

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 03:15 PM

Richie Havens, one of our greatest contemporary black traditional musicians.

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 03:16 PM

There are so many, but here are just a few who should not be overlooked:

Julius Lester
Leon Bibb
Jackie Washington
Len Chandler
Josh White, Jr.
Sonny Terry & Brownie McGhee
Bessie Jones
SNCC Freedom Singers
Jimmy Collier
Rev. Frederick Douglass Kirpatrick
Harry Belafonte
Gordon Parks, Jr.
Manse Lipscomb

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 04:32 PM

Spend some time looking through the resources packed into the African American Spirituals permathread for a glimpse of the richness of the black contribution to folk music. The originators of each of the songs will never be known, but the heartbeat is still strong.

~Susan

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: harpgirl
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 04:48 PM

Veronika Jackson!!!!

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: harpgirl
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 04:56 PM

Veronika Jackson

I had the delightful task of mcing for this super gal at the 49th Florida Folk Festival and she is a treat!

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 06:03 PM

This thread strikes me as pretty gratuitous. Look at us! We can list the names of a few black folk! How impressive.

So, why not do a little research and educate yourselves this Black History Month, and figure out who the following are:

Abbie Mitchell

Hattie McIntosh

Aida Overton Walker

The Rair Black Minstrels

Creole Nell/Madame Sul-Te-Wan

Amanda Randolph

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: AR282
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 07:06 PM

I'd say Charlie Patton, Elizabeth Cotten, Henry Thomas, Mississippi John Hurt, Clarence Ashley, Memphis Minnie, Blind Blake, David Honeyboy Edwards, Rube Lacy

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Bennet Zurofsky
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 07:30 PM

A little more up to date: Olu Dara, Guy Davis, Tupac . . . Once again, how are we defining folk? How about Thelonious Monk? Chuck Berry? Marian Anderson? Louis Armstrong, etc.

When it comes to popular music, as folk music used to be called in the days of Francis Child, here in the USA African-Americans are the overwhelming majority of the important contributors. Its only because most of us have a narrow, Anglo-American (i.e., White) point of view, that the question raised by this thread is even asked.

Bennet Zurofsky

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: toadfrog
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 07:41 PM

Yeah! You tell em, Zurofsky! And how about Michael Jackson? He was such a great musician, they made him a general and put him in comand of all those armies in Kosovo!

And then, there were all those so-called "white" musicians, like Uncle Dave Macon, Ewan McColl, Ringo Starr, and the Clancy Brothers who did nothing but steal from the African American tradition!

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 08:04 PM

hmmmmmmm well not being a white anglo-american !'ll stay out of this one. Maybe if I was I could understand Mr Zurofsky

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: GUEST,Fishy Waters
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 08:23 PM

One thing I've always wondered is why, after more than forty years, Folk Legacy has never recorded any of the great Black folk artists. Is there something fishy in their waters?

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 08:41 PM

Do Yazoo and Document have them all sewed up?

~S~

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 09:11 PM

Donny, I appeciate you mentioning the guy who got me going with Delta style blues, the "Sparkster" hisself, James Sparky Rucker. He's my main man and if you see him say, "Hey" from the Sarge. He'll know what you're talking about. Well, rather than look at all the Willie Browns, Jimi Hendrixs, Fred McDowell's that have been overlooked, I'd just like to throw Corey Harris's name in the hat, who like Sparky, are still havin' at it...

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 09:24 PM

Clarence Ashley was black? Not the one I know...

Jerry

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 11:15 PM

And then, of course, there are all the great black gospel singers as diverse as Little Richard, Aretha Franklin, James Brown and Al Greene (all of who started out in church choirs) to Mahalia Jackson, Reverend Gary Davis, Washington Phillips, Thomas Dorsey, the Five Blind Boys (of Alabama and Mississippi), Sam Cooke and the Soul Stirrers, the Sensational Nightingales, the Fairfield Four, and on and on. Most of them grew out of a tradition that was more folk than formal, and did secular music as well.

Jerry

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 11:19 PM

Thomas Dorsey should get a very special double mention for the hokum blues as Georgia Tom and then kick-starting the whole gospel "industry" with "Precious Lord take my hand".

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 11:49 PM

Taj Mahal

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 01:29 AM

Harry Belafonte (African-Bahamian-American)

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 08:24 AM

I protest against the slur on Folk Legacy. Burl

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 08:34 AM

Burl, "Fishy Waters" is a troll. Sandy needs no defense as you know. The Paton's history in civil rights goes well beyond such lame attempts to slur it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 08:44 AM

Thanks for that Catspaw.

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: GUEST,Fishy Waters
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 11:43 AM

"One thing I've always wondered is why, after more than forty years, Folk Legacy has never recorded any of the great Black folk artists. Is there something fishy in their waters?"

According to Burl, that is a slur.

Accrording to Catspaw49, I am a troll.

Where is the slur? It is a fact that, in more than forty years, Folk Legacy has never recorded a Black folk artist. It is also a fact that I have wondered about that.

Troll? I know that Folk Legacy is regarded as the greatest folk record company at Mudcat. I just don't understand how a folk record company, in business for almost half a century and purporting to document our folk legacy, can ignore Black artists for all of its existence.

Mudcat purports to support free speech and open debate. Dismissing someone as a "troll" when they question your scared cow is simply a tool of someone looking to control what is said.

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 11:52 AM

What a curious comment Fishy Waters....and I gather by your familiarity with Mudcat that you've been here for quite a while, under a name we'd recognize.

They HAVE. and a very fine album it is. If you actually care...look it up.

Rick

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 12:09 PM

I accept that Folk Legacy have never recorded a black artist. That is a fact, and to question it is legitimate. But would it not have been enough to add, 'Why Not?' To say "Is their something fishy.....?" implies a racist attitude or policy. Knowing the Paton's as I do I regard that as a slur. I have no wish to stifle debate but I will not see such an implication made towards friends without voicing my objection. Burl.

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 12:21 PM

Hi Burl. Did you see my post? They Most certainly HAVE!

I was hoping the guest in question might do a little digging on their own, but that really is stupid of me isn't it.

GUEST, Eugene Rhoades (sp) is a wonderful African-American artist on Folk-Legacy. Never heard of him? Hardly matters, does it.

Rick

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 12:31 PM

Hi Rick, I missed your earlier post. I just went to browse my FL catalogue, there found Eugene Rhodes. When I came triumphantly back to tell everyone you'd beaten me to it!. A grand album, now available on custom cassette. I stand by my earlier comments though. Burl.

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: GUEST,Fishy Waters
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 01:14 PM

Thanks Rick for the correction. I just checked the Folk Legacy site and now see that 1963 tape by Eugene Rhodes.

One release in more than forty years. Thirty-nine years ago at the height of the Civil Rights movement.

I'm sure that it wasn't tokenism and that Folk Legacy's liberal credentials are unquestionable.

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 01:18 PM

It's not the Patons fault that there are no dulcimer playing blacks in CT and ME.

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 01:43 PM

Yeah.......Well, there are good and bad trolls. Good trolls may provoke some interesting discussions by pushing some hot buttons in a non-threatening/judgemental way. Now that could have been done here....but it wasn't. It's obvious that Fishy is out to get his licks in on Sandy and Caroline and no amount of talk will change his position. So under those conditions, it's not worthy of discussion and any responses to Fishy will be met with even more of the same.

Stop it now gang and leave the subject alone........After all, do any of you who know the Paton's and their history have any reason to believe this sad-ass bullshit? .......Yeah, neither do I nor anyone else with any knowledge of their lives. Drop it now.....Let's not feed the trolls.

Spaw

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 02:18 PM

come on guys..."fishy waters"?...and we still bite?

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 03:46 PM

When Folk-Legacy was started, there were a number of labels producing recordings of African-American artists, specializing in the genre and well versed in its history, but very few offering field recordings of Anglo-American traditional singers. We had spent a good bit of our lives learning something about the Anglo-American song/ballad tradition to which we, personally, were drawn, but knew almost nothing about, say, blues.

As we went along, our audience developed among those who shared our interest in the Anglo-Scots-Irish-American material and the contemporary material that reflected its style. Over the years, we have continued to focus on the subject in which we feel more informed. I have done very little field collecting in African-American communities and quite a lot in Appalachia, New England, the Ozarks, the Maritime Provinces, etc. As I find the funds to produce more compilations from my field recordings, the African-Americans I have recorded will be included, of course, as Dave thompson was on Ballads and Songs of Tradition.

The music we have recorded has absolutely nothing to do with our political credentials, with our work for civil rights, with the fact that Julian Bond, Sam Griffin, and others in the movement chose to stay at our home when they were in our area to raise money for the movement, or the fact that my political activity has long kept me cheerfully and proudly on the Radical Right's shit list.

It is clear to me that "Fishy Waters" has failed to inform him/herself regarding our back catalog or to keep up with the number of African-American recordings offered on our web site. I have chosen to stay away from subjects about which I realize I know very little. I suggest that "Fishy Waters" might well do the same.

A somewhat angry Sandy

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: AR282
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 04:27 PM

Somebody mentioned Aida Overton Walker--she was the wife of George Walker who was Bert Williams's partner in Williams & Walker. They were superb singers, dancers and comedians.

Poor George went senile by about 1910 or so. I'm not sure why. Syphilis perhaps, it was a common affliction and, back then, as bad as AIDS. But I'm just guessing as to what destroyed his brain. Bert Williams went off on his own and gave us great songs such as "I Ain't Got Nobody" and the traditional jass standard "That's A-Plenty".

Aida Overton joined up with S. H. Dudley and his Smart Set Company to do "His Honor, The Barber". Dudley is another great black talent who has been forgotten. He deserves credit for starting up black-owned theatres which he ran from 1912 to 1929. He was for a time even more famous than Williams & Walker and Ernest Hogan--yet another great black talent who has been forgotten and who is credited by many a music scholar as being THE originator of ragtime.

Also interesting about Dudley is that he is the earliest known entertainer to use the line "Is Everybody Happy?" Dudley wouldn't ask it, another character would but then Dudley would blurt out drunkenly, "Hapsy!" and get a big laugh. Ernest Hogan began using "Is Everybody Happy?" and then it was picked up by a slew of entertainers before ending up with white clarinetist Ted Lewis who is now remembered for it while its originators have been utterly forgotten.

Somebody else asked about Clarence Ashley being black. I am referring to the claw-hammer banjoist who does a wonderful version of "House Carpenter" found on Yazoo's "Before the Blues" series (vol. 3). His photograph is also included and he looks black to me. He's light judging from the photo but has African features from what I can see.

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 04:41 PM

I know a lot of you have this thing about not responding to those you term trolls, but this stuff is open to the public and you can't really just ignore a loathsome`set of interpolations like Fishy Waters, whether he is stirring for stirring's sake or making what is intended to be a valid point. I am delighted people replied in terms of some vigour, and that Sandy Paton said soemthing. I can relate to his situation: anybody who knows me will be aware that I work on a lot of multi-cultural projects, and have been involved for years in a very fruitful set of recordings with a great black musician. But the special thing I have done for thirty years is researching traditional Cumbrian fiddle tunes. and I have to say that if someone tried to make something of the fact that they were all white , in Fishy Water's underhand way, I would be livid. I get the impression that some of you know who mr Waters is. I'd send the lads round to have a quiet word with him, in a liberal, non-violent pacifist way of course.

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 08:14 PM

Not only is Clarence Ashley, WHITE, he's friggin' FAMOUS as well. Not an easy mistake to make if you're actually interested in traditional music.

Amen, Greg. Good day for silliness though. A few of us gettin' a bit of a laugh on the "Where do EX-folk stars play" thread, as well. Keeps the blood circulatin'.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: AR282
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 08:34 PM

What source can be given that Clarence Ashley was white? Has anybody seen the Yazoo CD I refer to and is the man whose photo is said to Ashley's correct?

I have to say, he doesn't appear to me to be all that white.

Can anybody name sources that will prove beyond a doubt that Ashley is white?

The Yazoo liner notes don't say. The photo is the only one I've ever seen and it's difficult to say. If I had to guess from the photo, he appears to be light-skinned but has African features. However Yazoo does include other white artists in this collection so that doesn't cinch my case for me. And I am no folk expert by any stretch.

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 08:38 PM

Hey, now the ol' bobert may be just a dumb ol' hillbilly but Iz ain't gettin' into this troll-not-a-troll thing. Blues is African American folk art. As a musican and bluesman, I appreciate the blues. It's good music that celebrates life. For a thread to be devoted to those who have and continue carry forth the music, the stories and the feeling of the blues... too be, ahhh, tarnished by the common troll/ non troll BS is like burning a cross in my front yard. Think a few of you folks need to chill.....

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 08:45 PM

All the albums from 1960 on, his numerous appearances at festivals, his whole well-documented history, his repertoire (I doubt a black artist would record the "Patteroller song" several times,). He's one of the BIGGIES of the Folk revival.

On the other hand... The ALLAN Brothers (who like Ashley recorded MANY songs) got put in the "race" catalogue ('cause the company thought they'd sell to black audiences) and were livid. Sued the company.

Rick

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 08:47 PM

Well, let's try This Photo of Doc and his neighbor Clarence.

Or maybe this one?

Your call.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 08:54 PM

Nope, Spaw, you are wrong on this one. This asshole isn't after the Patons. These slugs are very insecure and get their kicks from tagging whatever is respected, in order to get a rise. Has something to do with the way their mothers changed their diapers. They ain't after Caroline and Sandy, they are after us. I liked Rick's response which showed them for ignorant fools they are and demonstrated that they really don't care about facts, but about responses from well intentioned folks. It is only when they get a rise from those that they feel inferior to that they can sleep. I guess I feel sorry for the poor little lads and LASSES who think we don't know them by their writings......

I am not going to defend the Patons here, to do so would lend legitness to these illegitimate slugs.

Mick

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 08:59 PM

ok my grump is over. re:clarence ashley and what colour he was. wasnt there some controversy about whether Charlie Patton was black to any meaningful extent, isnt he meant to be a native american/white? Or am i getting confused, my blues buff days were a while ago. Mind you he's a superhero of black music anyway,whatever the genetic facts might be. And if we're slipping out of the USA for Harry Belafonte, there's got to be a special plinth for Joseph Spense in the hall of fame. my geography is a bit hazy, the Bahamas arent't in the Caribbean, does that make them American?

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 09:26 PM

AR282: Perhaps you'd be more convinced if you read the autobiography I have of Clarence Ashley, with umpty-billion photographs of him, all clearly white... as well as all the album covers. Best to let this one lie..

Jerry

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: AR282
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 09:41 PM

Well, I could show you photos of Mancy Carr and you'd classify him as white but under the one-drop rule he was classified as black.

Great jazz trombonist Kid Ory--black or white?

However, since there is no controversy surrounding Clarence Ashley that I know of and I was simply going by one indistinct photo--and admittedly almost never listen to folk, I will retract my listing of Clarence Ashley as black.

Thanks to all who responded.

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Susan of DT
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 07:02 AM

(dick greenhaus here)

In case nobody's noticed, there's been a dearth of black folk performers (and blacks in folk audiences) since the separatist movement of the mid-to-late 1960s. THis is most evident in the development of the blues genre as something distinct from the folk genre. Calypso and gospel too, have gone their separate ways---I suspect that, back in the 50s both would have fallen under the "folk" blanket. Maybe reggae, too.

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: AR282
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 11:58 AM

Incidentally, what is the "Pateroller Song" and why can't black folksingers do it?

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 02:06 PM

Hi, Sandy: This is not in defense of Folk Legacy. Just want to make a point. I ran a folk concert series for 27 years and a folk festival for seven. If there were many black folk musicians, I would have joyfully booked them. In all those years, all I could come up with was Sparky Rucker and a trio from New Jersey. Now, I have a black gospel quartet. I spent 27 years trying to book one, and never found one. We were booked at the Hartford Family Folk Festival, and Len Domler was delighted to have us because he'd been trying to include black musicians for years. We're playing more festivals and folk series now, and it's a delight to bring a style of black gospel that is becoming increasingly rare. In the black churches it's almost exclusively mass choirs and contemporary praise and worship songs with heavy instrumentation, massive choirs that sounds suspiciously like contemporary rhythm and blues and hip hop. Not recording or booking black folk or gospel singers isn't prejudice. Just try to find them. I spent many, many years looking...

Jerry

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 03:56 PM

I'm surprised by the posts saying there aren't black folk artists around.

Some of the black artists that I have seen at folk festivals, just in the past couple of years, include: Corey Harris, Robert B. Jones, the Persuasions, Philadelphia Jerry Ricks, Odetta, Honeyboy Edwards, Linda Tillery, Madagascar Slim, Beau Jocque, Josh White Jr., Davell Crawford, Kim & Reggie Harris, Rosco Gordon, Vance Gilbert, John Jackson, Otis Taylor, Laura Love, Taj Mahal, Alvin Youngblood Hart, the Holmes Brothers, Clarence Gatemouth Brown, R.L. Burnside, Richie Havens, Barrence Whitfield, Ladysmith Black Mambazo, Guy Davis, Bill Morganfield, Big Jack Johnson, Ben Harper, Jackie Washington, the Fairfield Four, Eric Bibb, Cephas & Wiggins, Sonny Rhodes, Henry Butler, and Sweet Honey In the Rock.

Those are just people whose names I pulled out of programs for folk festivals I've personally been to in 2000 and 2001. I only attend four folk festivals a year, so the performers that I've seen in that time must only be a scratch at the surface of who is out there.

Jerry

Subject: RE: African American folk artists
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 06:13 PM

Hi, Jerry: I guess that I should revise my comment. When you run a small coffee house, you end up not being able to book people who make big money, black, white or Maroon. I'm sure that Ladysmith Black Mambazo (an obvious example) and the Fairfield Four (both of whom I've seen in much larger, well-paying venues,) or Richie Havens, Sweet Honey in the Rock or almost everyone on your list wouldn't take a Saturday night booking for $400-500. The list of people who will take bookings in that range... up to $700 which was about tops for the series I was running up until about five years ago) eliminates the big venue folks, but there were always plenty of friends (Mudcatters, many of them,)who loved to be a part of the series I ran. That was about all I could pay and break even. Folk Festivals, if they're MAJOR folk festivals, can pay a couple of thousand dollars, or more. The Festival that I ran was much smaller, and yet I was able to get good people like Greg Brown, Bob Gibson, Sandy & Caroline, Bill Staines and countless other fine musicians because it was a good place to play. I've gone to folk concert series that have been running for close to thirty and have never seen a black performer listed there for the same reason... they're not large enough venues. It's economics, not prejudice or a lack of awareness of the bigger name black performers and groups.

Jerry