The Other Irish.

Subject: The Other Irish.
From: little john cameron
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 11:28 PM

Noo ah dinnae want tae stert a fecht here aboot this,bit ah came across this site when ah wis pokin aboot lookin for Ulster Scots.Very interestin fae "folk" point o' view.Ulsternation

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: The Pooka
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 12:18 AM

Thank you, littlejohn. Very interestin' indeed. We have to learn about each other's traditions instead of just roarin' all the time. / Fer a minute I was puzzled abour the good Rabbi there,--- but yeah, I see. I think. God contribution & info.

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: GUEST,Joseph
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 12:23 AM

Am I the only one who is annoyed when people write in dialect like Cameron? It ain't funny.

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: The Pooka
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 12:27 AM

Meant "good" contribution & info, there, But Hey! who knows? Not me. / Who was it that prayed something like, Lord, teach me to seek thy Truth; and preserve me from those who are sure have already found it? (Was it Rev. Paisley? No. But I can think of some of "our" fellers whom it also wasn't, if ye see what I mean....)

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: The Pooka
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 12:30 AM

Guest Joseph, it is true that you are not. I can get pretty peeved at m'self when *I* do it, too. Of course my imitation-dialect is different from his, but that's not the point, is it? *Is* it??

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 01:39 AM

I love it when ljc writes in dialect. I like leearning to decipher it and it mkaes it easier to *hear* it in my head. I can just imagine him speaking it to me.

Thanks, ljc, interesting site, esp. since I know, now, that some of my Scottish ancestors came from Northern Ireland, quite awhile back.

kat

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 06:20 AM

Well, "ain't" ain't in the small dictionaries.

We all speak in dialect, it's just that some are more widespread than others. Such as the ones they speak in North America.

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: GUEST,Sam
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 06:37 AM

Well, for all your information. What you describe as dialect is not dialect it is a language in its own right. It is Ulster Scots and is recognised by the European Government. It is spoken by 140 thousand people in Northern Ireland. It has its own culture and music and dance and poetry and flags.
There is a great growth interest in this at the moment and lots of people are finding out that they are not Irish at all but Ulster Scots. If people think they understand ourlanguage it is only because they have been listening to it for centuries without realising it. They call it a dialect but that is insulting to a language. Sam

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 06:50 AM

And I may as well fire in here... ljc would point out that he writes in Scots or Lallans - not the Ulster variant.

cheers

Steven

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 06:55 AM

Ulster Scots are Irish - after all the very word "Scots" is just another word for "Irish" if you go back far enough.

And the very word Ulster refers to a province one third of which is on the other side of the border anyway.

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: masato sakurai
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 07:03 AM

I wasn't taught Ulster Scots at school al all, but have to learn a bit. Don't these sites help?

Ulster-Scots

Is Ulster Scots a language?

ULSTER-SCOTS RESEARCH CENTRE

~Masato

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: GUEST,Joseph
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 11:10 AM

McGrath, Ain't is in the American College Dictionary. Ain't: non-standard contraction of is not. Acceptable when used knowingly to provide humor or shock. Spare me from pedants. Guess your ego needed a boost. What better way then to put someone down?

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: leprechaun
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 11:24 AM

I like the way little john writes, and McGrath ain't so bad either.

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: The Pooka
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 01:53 PM

Also enjoying both of these writers, I agree with Leprechaun; and accordingly I lift Nell Flaherty's prior imprecations from off his head. (Hi Lepre; ye goin' to hear Liam C.'s concerts this month? :)
Masato, you have done it again, by Golly. Yes those sites surely do help. Thank you.

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 03:32 PM

Masato, thanks so much for the links.

My dad can speak Ulster Scots it, grew up hearing it. It's a real pleasure to see it written and also to read all of the history and information on it.

Anyone know how much it carried over to Nova Scotia? My ancestors came from Northern Ireland and Scotland to Nova Scotia, so I am curious.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 03:42 PM

Well it ain't surprising "ain't" is in the American College Dictionary - that's one of the dialects in which the word is current. Also in the one I speak.

Does pointing out that we all speak in one dialect or another count as putting anyone down? (Now, objecting to someone using a dialect different from the one we use - that might possibly count as an effort to put them down. In the case of ljc I somehow don't think it would work.)

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 03:51 PM

I lived and worked in many parts of England and Scotland, the Geordies in and around Newcasle- on -Tyne had an accent that bordered on a language of it`s own. They were not alone in this respect, I also found the Scots along the English border hard to understasnd, and people from Birmingham and London. So living in the north of Ireland I find that the people who are promoting our accent as some form of a language is another push by the local bigots to isolate themselves from their nationalist neighbours. The people who are behind this wild goose chase are the last you would hear speaking like your average northener, they try to imitate the posh BBC announcers, no way would they lower themselves to speak like the masses. So all you good people that are gifted with an accent you could cut with a knife, get on the ball and apply for a language grant. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: little john cameron
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 04:00 PM

http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/files/board.htm
Kind dry stuff here,but the transation at the bottom is interestin. ljcPS,cannae be bother wi' the clickie,too much Guinness.

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: Mickey191
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 07:07 PM

Kat, Happen to be in an elevator in Halifax one day, two ladies were carrying on a conversation. I begged their pardon, inquiring what part of Ireland they were from. (I would have bet The southwest-Cork,Kerry) They laughed and said they were native Nova Scotians. So my guess is that all of Ireland's brogues are represented in Nova Scotia. Great people in a most beautiful province.

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: gnu
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 07:20 PM

I am constantly asked what part of Newfoundland I am from (I live in Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada). I explain that my forefathers come from central New Brunswick so that half of the Irish accent is from there and the other half is from working in Newfoundland for twenty-five years.

As for "distinct" languages, Atlantic Canada varies with your gas mileage.

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 07:21 PM

Thanks, Mickey. I had thought that might be the case, though my dad claims his granddad and grandma from there had no accents. I think he just grew up hearing it, so didn't count it as such, 'cause it sure carried over; when he wants to use it, it is there!:-) We've still got some kind of relatives there, odd bits of cousins and such. I hope to one day visit. I at least have been able to find where my greatX2grandparents are buried.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: gnu
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 07:28 PM

Some clues kat ! This sounds interesting. Maybe we could find your long lost.

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 07:58 PM

Oh, I'd love that, gnu! I figure just about any Crawford, Fountain (could have been La Fountain, ages ago), Sutherland, Gordon and Moore is probably a realtive. My grandma was a Crawford, her folks, Harvey Burton Crawford married to Elizabeth Elinore Fountain, came from NS and I have found Elizabeth's folks listed in Pugwash County's 1871 Census, Aaron Fountain and family.

The one I'd really like to trace back more, is my other great-grandma from there, Hannah Gordon. It is said some relative of hers, same last name, perhaps her father, was a Scottish physican who lived in Dublin, was shanghied and managed to jump ship near NS, settling there when the coast was clear, so to speak. I just found Hannah's name this year, so haven't done a lot on her, yet.

Betcha regret getting me started; this is one of my favourite subjects!Haha!

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: gnu
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 08:08 PM

Not at all. All of those names have a place around here but I am far from Pugwash. Perhaps some NS 'Cat can help ?

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 09:43 PM

From what I've heard, the range and variety of accents in Newfoundland is remarkably wide, with each township seeming to have its own, and some of them pretty different. Mind, given the size of the country and the isolation of the communities until relatively recently, I suppose that's not surprsiing.

Mind we get that here too, and not just in isolated places - I was once in Birmingham trying to find some tucked away place which meant I had to keep on stopping to get directions as I drove across the city. Each time I did so, it seemed I got a completely different, though recognisably Birmingham, accent.

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: GUEST,Sam
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 10:20 PM

Mc Grath of Harlow and Ard Mhacha (whatever you might be) your are typical of the Gaelic Nationalist Front. You refuse to recognise any identity other than your own. We are not Irish. We are British. Always have been and always will be. We are proud of our language and culture, under threat as they have been for hundreds of years. If the Council of Europe recognises our language who do think you are to deny us our rights?

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: The Pooka
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 11:02 PM

Ahh c'mon Guest Sam, whatever YOU might be, as if we didn't know. (Yeah folks,I'm bitin' th' bait here, I know, I know.) "You refuse to recognise any identity other than your own. We are not Irish. We are British. Always have been and always will be." Can ye not see how *hilarious* that statement is? WHO is it refuses to recognize other identities, again?? And again, "....who do think you are to deny us our rights?" Now WHO is it's denyin' yer rights? McGrath?? Perish the thought. Speak as ye like & let others do the same. What, were you supressed & censored when you tried to post? Strip-searched? Why I believe you even wrote in the Queen's English. Well, more or less. So what's the problem?

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: Ferret
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 06:46 AM

Ar! Another adult literally and grammar thread

Why do we need so many? The whole point of language is to communicate one idea from one to another how is irrelevant. Or do you think that we had better all speak say the Queen's English, or why not Mandarin or Esperanto. It 's getting to the point that if you post any thing on the cat about any thing all you get is a lector on spelling, grammar, punctuation or what ever, but little on the content of the post. I don't carer how you write on here so long as I can work it out (eventually) Can we try to keep on the point? Please?

All the best ferret

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: Ferret
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 06:49 AM

PS up till only about 200 years or so ago there was no common way of spelling. Ferret

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 08:34 AM

Sam I can see you getting an interview for an important post and you go in using an accent from Ahoghill or any other part of the north, like hell you would. I have lived in an around the north for a long time and I haven`t yet heard of anyone coming out of Queens University with a degree in "Ulster-Scots", in fact they speak plum-in -the-mouth BBC English. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 08:53 AM

Can anyone really read Chaucer? That having been written in "Middle English", I believe.

In my way of thinking, languages they mutate away from their origins. The english we speak here in the States still has enough in common with that spoken by the English so that it would still be called "Dialect".

The more isolated a people are from others who speak the same language, the more likely, after time, they will not be speaking the same language.

Ulster-Scots is still nearly understandable (especially with the translation right next to it). But it does remind me of reading Chaucer in High School.

So, when is it that a dialect earns the title "language", and who are the arbiters?

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 10:16 AM

One bit of drift and then I am back on topic: before anyone thinks to post genealogy links, please see Jon's Annexe. I have tons of online sites. It's *stumbles upon" in the 3D world of Nova Scotia that would be helpful/exciting.*bg* Thanks!

kat

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: michaelr
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 04:41 PM

GUEST Sam - Masato's first link, "Ulster Scots", states that Ulster Scots has been recognized as as dialect of Scots by the European Bureau of Lesser-Used Languages - not, as you assert, a language in its own right.

Having said that,

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: michaelr
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 04:47 PM

Sorry - dickfingered this morning.
(Continued) Having said that, I strongly believe that the last thing the world needs right now is yet another excuse for nationalistic divisiveness.

And I'm with Ferret: it's annoying to constantly have spelling and punctuation (and split infinitives) issues pointed out. That's not why we post here.

Michael

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 05:28 PM

Who was it said a language is a dialect with an army and a navy?

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 05:47 PM

By the way,some of us are very confused by the "Ulster Scots is a language" discussion, and also by the ongoing "Scots is a language" discussion which we hear all the time in Scotland. It is honestly difficult to understand if you think of languages changing gradually say from Birmingham-Carlisle- Edinburgh, or Dublin-Belfast-Rathlin-Islay-Oban.Could we see an example, say from our correspondent Sam or anyone else who supports this view? Here's a sentence in what I think of as English (I may be wrong): "My name is Greg, I am very interested in folk music, history and the origin of languages". What would that look like translated into (a) Ulster Scots and (b) Scots? If we could all see the differences, then we can surely discuss it together with more understanding.

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 06:43 PM

When discussing Irish topics should we us "Erse"?
and when discussing mediterranean islands should we use as a for instance "Elba"?
The "uneducated" of us who do not know their Erse from their Elba and want to communicate and be understood are stuck with our "common?" language English? with a little bit of the vernacular thrown in for effect? *BG*

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 08:11 PM

To quote the late Mr Milligan:
"I speak Esperanto like a native"

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: little john cameron
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 08:11 PM

Aye Kenny,puir auld Mickey is bein took enough o' awready.
Noo tae Greg,baith yersel an' me are intereestit in mony orthographies o' Scots leids,no' tae mention Inglis an' ither heathen wies o' converse.Micht be worth a keek the waubsteid raither the ye get yersel fair puggled wi mah haverins. wec(wee eain camsron)

There are two issues in Scots spelling, how different it should be from English and which dialectical variant should be chosen. Neither has reached a satisfactory conclusion yet with the result that every writer uses his or her own written 'idiolect'. Nevertheless all is not total anarchy. The Concise English-Scots Dictionary (CESD) which came out in 1993 is the 'bible' for vocabulary, but it often gives alternative spellings and itself has chosen a particular system. The Scots School Dictionary was based on this work. The one thing everyone agrees on is that apostrophies (the Curse of Burns) should be avoided at all costs (ie o', a' , o'er etc).

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 08:19 PM

Is workin withoot an apostrophy no a catastrophy....... that's periodically,,,,,,,, just recovered from a comma, y - that Eh in welsh?
ar hyd y nos., ad infinitum :>)

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: GUEST,Sam
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 09:31 PM

Michaelr, I dont have to prove anything to you or the likes of you. Our leid is recognised by the Coonsil o Yoorup as a fully fledged langidge. You mist be another member if the Gaelic Nationalist Front. You micht hae blinded the wurrld wi' the likes of "Riverdance" and "the Chieftains" but when examined, these so called Irish cutlural items have their roots in Ulster Scots music and culture brought o'er tae Scotland thousands of years ago and brocht back tae the mither countrie in the 16 hunderts during the s0-called plantation. This wis naething o the soart. We jist reclaimed what wis our ain. And this we will maintain!

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: little john cameron
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 09:53 PM

Twa renditions o the mame poem

THE INKIMARS SAININ

The Laird sain yous aa, An in wir hoose cuman; Sae he sains yous aa, An yous but't sinan.

For Goad sains thaim aa, Aagates, rich an puir; Sae he'l sain yous mair, An gangan owre the deur.

(Loosely translated: May the Lord bless you all, As you arrive at our house, Like he blesses you all, When you're outside it sinning. Because God blesses them all, Everywhere, rich and poor, Like he'll bless you again, When you go out of the door. I hope it sounds better in Scots!!) Ian James Parsley

Subject: RE: The Other Irish.
From: robinia
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 08:14 PM

I'd like to point out that trying to set down ANY kind of "English" phonetically is a nightmare and that some "variant" languages, such as Scots have acquired their own spelling conventions just as standard English has. How to set down enough of the dialectical difference to show that the speaker isn't speaking as WE interpret the conventions but without forcing the reader to sound out every blooming word -- well, that's a problem writers have long struggled with.   So I can understand the irritation of an early contributor, who'd be just as irritated, I fink, if ahee tride too rite egzacklee hwat cums auwt ov mahee mouf...