When is use of third degree justified?

Subject: When is use of third degree justified?
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 02:36 PM

Hello all.

I've found that if I use an F# as a bass note in a D chord (whether including it in a strum or as one of an alternating bass pattern) or a B as a bass note in a G chord, it sounds OK; maybe a little less "straight up" than a tonic or dominant note, but still acceptable.

On the other hand, using the open E string in a C chord, or using the open A below a 4-string F chord doesn't sound right.

On a theoretical basis, this discrepancy doesn't seem to make sense; in all four of these cases the note in question is the third degree of the chord.

Do other people hear a difference between the first two cases and the last two cases? Can anyone explain why there would be a difference?

Marion

Subject: RE: When is use of third degree justified?
From: GUEST,SharonA at the library
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 02:51 PM

Oh! It's a music thread! I thought, from the thread title, that this might be a thread about the charge of third-degree murder and when its use is justified! (BTW, I could never figure out why third-degree murder is "less bad" than first-degree murder, yet third-degree burns are worse than first-degree burns!) But back to the intended subject...

Marion: Perhaps the difference you're hearing is due to the fact that the strings in your last two cases are "open" and, therefore, may have more of a "ring" to them and may sound more dominant within the chord's sound (partly because of harmonics, partly because the string isn't being fingered as part of the chord so the vibration isn't being "stopped" in any way).

Sharon

Subject: RE: When is use of third degree justified?
From: Midchuck
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 02:53 PM

I know what you mean, but I often use the open low E as a "passing tone," going from the C chord to a barred F. It works in that context. Which makes it even more confusing.

Peter

Subject: RE: When is use of third degree justified?
From: khandu
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 06:39 PM

Yes, I agree. They do sound a little off. However, I have found that whenever I use (from bass to high) F-A-F-A-C-F, the open A fits well.

And...when finger-picking, I have often used the chords as you described them, and they sound good. But, just strumming...yeeech!

khandu

Subject: RE: When is use of third degree justified?
From: leprechaun
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 06:58 PM

No no no. The third degree is when I chain somebody to a wooden chair in a dark room with a bright light over their head and agressively interrogate them until they confess.

Subject: RE: When is use of third degree justified?
From: khandu
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 07:02 PM

leprechaun, don't forget the rubber hose and the withheld glass of water! Oh...and a clothespin can come in quite handy!

khandu

Subject: RE: When is use of third degree justified?
From: RichM
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 07:04 PM

Hmm..as SharonA says the fact that low E is open stringed(in a C chord) may allow it to ring out and have more presence--and not an attractive presence. It does sound better to my ear when I rest my picking hand's palm on the E string to prevent it ringing.

But the low E sounds more interesting when it's used sparingly with other bass notes in a strum:

using the C chord:
C(5th string),then strum;
G(6th string),then strum;
E(open 6th string) etc;
G(6th string)strum.....

Here, the E is a passing tone, as MidChuck says. That seems to make it more palatable.

Subject: RE: When is use of third degree justified?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 08:26 PM

The reason that it sounds different in the two cases is simple--though both are major chords, with the third on the bottom, they are voiced differently, with different interval between the lowest note and the second note in the chords--

In the D chord, the two notes on the bottom are F# and A, so the interval that is sounding is is a minor third, where in the C chord, the bass notes are E and C and the interval that sounds is an augmented fifth--

I'm going to be a little bit of a grouch here, and just say that you people should take the trouble learn the names of the notes in the chords you are playing--I don't fault Marion for asking, but I do find it a little sad that none of the others even had a clue to what is really a pretty basic question!!!!

Subject: RE: When is use of third degree justified?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 08:32 PM

The third degree is justified when wringing an admission out of a dachshund who has stolen a string of sausages or peed on the carpet. It doesn't always work, but it's justified...

Regarding the chords you mentioned...well, if it sounds good it is good. That's the only rule that much matters for me.

- LH

Subject: RE: When is use of third degree justified?
From: toadfrog
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 09:25 PM

There is no such thing as "third degree murder." There are third-degree Masons, though.

Subject: RE: When is use of third degree justified?
From: RichM
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 10:01 PM

You're right, Ted. I didn't know that. Maybe I should, but I've made music for 40 years without putting too many labels on it. And this is folkmuzik, not conservatory exams ;)

Subject: RE: When is use of third degree justified?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 11:05 AM

Is this anything to do with Prince Charles's favourite trio, or am I in the wrong thread?

Subject: RE: When is use of third degree justified?
From: leprechaun
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 02:10 PM

I actually got some protestors out of a tree with a glass of water once.

Subject: RE: When is use of third degree justified?
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 02:34 PM

I've met a lot of folk musicians, particularly blues and jazz guys, many of them knew basic theory, names of notes, and, more often than you'd think, could read music, and the ones that didn't tended to wish that they could, because they recognized that it limited what they could do--

Subject: RE: When is use of third degree justified?
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 05:48 PM

RichM, I tried your C-G-E-G series of bass notes, and I like it.

M.Ted, veiled insults aside, I found your response interesting - although I know well the names of the notes low on the neck, and the triad notes for the chords I play, I hadn't thought to look at what patterns of intervals those notes appear in. However, the interval you say causes the "not quite right" sound (wouldn't it technically be a minor sixth?) appears in a normal G chord: B to G on the first two strings. Is it only at the bottom of a chord that unusual intervals don't work?

Marion

Subject: RE: When is use of third degree justified?
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 07:34 PM

toadfrog says, "There is no such thing as 'third degree murder.' " Sure there is! Look it up on google.com to find some examples!