BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote

Subject: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: The Pooka
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 11:00 PM

OK, ye Orange & ye Green, what say yez now to dis? Click here

Fer starters, *I* say David T.'s a canny Scot, by God. He's right: the nationalists canna' win a 6-Counties vote---*yet*. And with the 7-year-interval provision, maybe he buys time. (Though I think the demographics will take longer than 7 years to congeal annyway; the babbies dinna get borned & grow wup *that* fast. I think he tactically overestimates the percentage of the Norn Iron Papist vote fer the status quo; but what do I know? and in any case it's probably bigger than the [even "moderate"] Prod vote for Dublin.) And: the *separate* vote in the Republic of Eire would be win-win for David: either it exposes unexpectedly-strong Celtic-Tiger resistance to saddling her Tail with the economic & political Troubles of the Falls and the Ardoyne and the Shankill; OR it's 90%-plus for One Ireland regardless, and First Minister Trimble says "Well we already knew that; so what?" Not bad, David. / Have at it, folks. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Red Eye
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 02:43 AM

If a situation affects other people then they should be allowed to vote on the topic. Hence a GB vote concerning Irish Unification should be held.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Fiolar
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 05:45 AM

I sometimes wonder where politicians like Trimble live. Perhaps in an alternate universe, which if you believe the latest scientific theory is feasable. He says in his statement: "Our country (meaning presumbly, the "six counties") offers the right balance of Britishness and Irishness to the people of Northern Ireland. It respects the identity of all and threatens none. It seeks to accomdate and not repress." I must assume that he is joking and being ironic. If not, tell that to the kids of Holy Cross School and to the folks on both sides who have been driven from their homes over the years as well as being slaughtered by loyalist and republican gangs. By the way, if the people did vote for an United Ireland, would he accept the result?

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 06:57 AM

Maybe an all Ulster vote on it would be the right thing, all nine counties.

Red Eye's right enough that if there were to be a parallel vote in the 26 counties iyt's make sense to have one acriss the water in Great Britain as well. They've never allowed that one, because they know how it would turn out for the Union.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 08:42 AM

Demographics is not the only factor. As time goes by, fewer people remember or are interested to remember Ireland as an entity (albeit within the UK). And it is 30 years since the crass folly of a "protestant parliament for a protestant people" was knocked on the head.

No paisleyite is likely to get elected (as happened in the 60s) on a manifesto of locking up the parks and swimming pools on Sundays. And the increasing power of the European union is rendering national boundaries ever less significant.

Northern catholics now see the rightly revered Martin McGuiness serving as minister for education, and achieving change for the better. Seven years from now he will certainly have put paid to the iniquity of selective (11-plus) education, and may well have seen the uni-denominational schools into terminal decline.

On the other hand, the value of the welfare state as a factor in encouraging catholics to stay with the UK has been devalued from two directions. UK infrastructure and welfare services have been under-invested for 30 years, while the Celtic tiger is booming, with high investment in health,infrastructure etc - albeit some of this coming through European regional development programmes.

But Dublin does not endear itself, with banana-republic fiascos like last week's referendum on abortion. Or the endless tribunals into corruption that constantly threaten to put government into paralysis. (Last month a TD was brought from prison to the Dail in police custody so he could answer a censure motion against him.)

Anyway, regardless of what way these issues pan out, it is not realistic to depend on the demographics alone. There is now such a thing as a catholic middle class in the north. Their commitment to a united Ireland will come nowhere near that of the diaspora at large. They don't like new initiatives of any sort, because every initiative provokes reactions that threaten their comfortable lifestyles, property values, etc.

To answer someone's question, I guess Trimble would fall in with the verdict if it went against him. But maybe a million protestants would not - and that would be Dublin's nightmare. Only a nightmare though - they would wake up to the reality that there is still a clear majority for the union. Trimble may be smarter than he has often acted.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: The Pooka
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 12:50 PM

Good discussion. Hoping to hear from more out there. (ljc? Will ye no enlighten us further? We need yer perspective, in yer truly lovely Ulster Scots language, accompanied by yer Lambeg drum. This is a crosscultural multiparty interdenominational Thread, here. :)

Fionn, thanks; so well-informed & well-stated. Food for serious thought. Demographics include economic status & more; denomination need not be destiny; and long-frozen voting patterns can still thaw. Good stuff.

Red Eye, an all-GB vote might make sense but I gather it's not in the Agreement. Presumably if it had been, there'd BE no Agreement.

Mr McG. of H.: Ohhh, yer a clever one sir! A match for Trimble, sez I. It's not in the Agreement either, but how sweet it is! An all-Ulster vote of 9 counties! So not all 26 of Eire (no need), but just the 3 Catholic Ulster counties ceded to the Free State in the Partition gerrymander---*precisely to preserve a Loyalist majority in the Northern statelet*---would get their referendum votes tallied in with Norn Iron, eh? Tip the balance, by God! de Valera's Revenge! I'm just shure the results would show the Rev. Paisley to be as welcome as the flowers o' May to dear old Donegal! Good one, McGrath. I'm for it. We'll get Trimble to accept a friendly amendment. HAHAHAHAHA. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 02:10 AM

Sounds like a good idea. Although I think that when the time comes to vote on it, it will be economic more than political isues that drives the voting. The proposed enlargement of the EU will reduce the amount of funding from Brussels as money will be voted to new member states. Under the terms of the Treaty of Rome, the Republic's claim to Northern Ireland is illegal and a referendum, irrespective of the outcome, would allow that anomaly to be resolved.

Should the proposed referendum include the UK, as suggested above, I think that would guarantee a united Ireland. In general people living on the mainland have never given two hoots and this could be viewed as one way of conveniently getting rid of the problem.

The governments involved would have to fall in with the result - it would be too high profile for them to ignore. I have a sneaking feeling that a vote for a united Ireland would be welcomed in Westminster and viewed with apprehension in Dublin.

Hope it goes ahead - good luck to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Paddy Plastique
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 04:24 AM

Eh, Teribus, ye might've fallen asleep there for a while in the mid-90s, but the part of the
Republic's constitution laying claim to the six counties has been cut out,
in a referendum, I believe, post Good Friday Agreement. All that remains is
to cut out another dozen or so pages of Dev's gobbledegook..
and Ireland just might become a bearable place to live
Trimble calling the Free State a 'pathetic, sectarian' state is somewhat like the
brassneckedness of Chirac over here calling for an end to 'the climate of impunity for crooks'
To quote that book they like so much in Norn Iron 'let he who is without (Car)sin cast the first stone'

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Ringer
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 05:25 AM

You're mis-quoting "that book", Paddy Plastique, and doing violence to the English Language, also.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 05:48 AM

"Under the terms of the Treaty of Rome, the Republic's claim to Northern Ireland is illegal and a referendum, irrespective of the outcome, would allow that anomaly to be resolved." As Paddy P points out, there's no such claim now, just an aspiration. And an expectation, but that's not in the costutution.

But "Ireland just might become a bearable place to live". Well, Ireland is a long way short of perfect, since most of the people living there are human beings - but even so, of the countries on this planet, it's probably one of most bearable.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: GUEST,Reynardine
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 06:04 AM

'...one of the most bearable', eh, McGrath? Germany's pretty nice. So too France. Ever notice how the only Irish people who praise Ireland are the ones living abroad (besides the tourist board, and they're paid to do it)? Our greatest 'inpatriate' intellectual (though by God he'd've despised the epithet), Myles na gCopaleen (moment of silence, please), hated the place, and spoke more often than not of his distaste for everything pertaining to 'Gaelic culture' and its revival. But, then, that was in the 40s and 50s, when it was far, far worse than today's whippersnappers can imagine. I don't like Ireland very much either, but it's easier to stay than to go. As for the North, the less I have to think about it, the better, I find. Cold, I know, but one grows weary of the rhetoric of hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 06:35 AM

Thanks for the correction, (Paddy P & M o H) - I'd heard about the referendum but not the result and actions/ammendments resulting from it.

Cheers,

Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: GUEST,Paddy Joe
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 06:56 AM

Isn`t it wonderful to be such a perfect human as our oul friend foxy Reynardine. Paddy Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 07:26 AM

"Ever notice how the only Irish people who praise Ireland are the ones living abroad," No I haven't, because it's not actually true.

There is always the idea that somehow the grass is greenest elsewhere, wherever you are living. Sometimes it is true, a lot of the time it isn't. For every Irish emigrant who wakes up every day thanking God they got out of it, I'd hazard there are a lot more wishing they were back home.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Fiolar
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:38 AM

As an emigrant in the mid-fifties, I had little option but to cross the water. I could of course have stayed and worked for a pittance for the tight fisted farmers around where I used to live. I however had no wish to continued picking potatoes from frozen soil and pulling sugar beet. Now there's a bastard plant if ever there was one. The leaves are like containers which after each shower of sleety rain hold about a half gallon of water. Try pulling a few and remaining dry. Impossible. I have no particular wish to return to Ireland to live but on the other hand if I ever win the lottery ----

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:56 AM

I can't speak to most of what is being discussed here, as my observations are simply those of one who was raised to love "the idea" of Ireland, her traditions, and her language. But I can make a couple of observations comfortably.

If there were any justice, then the vote would include the 9 counties, as my friend Kevin McGrath, suggests. After all, that is Ulster. And I have often heard those opposed to reunification lay claim Ulster. So if there is true concern for the citizens of Ulster, then all from Ulster should vote, no? But, of course, that isn't the real goal, rather it is to maintain status quo if possible, so there will be all sorts of pseudo-logic to justify why it isn't so.

One thing that seems apparent, and gives me a sense of optimism, is that the discussion/argument/political maneuvering is going on. Trimble making this move, McGuinness and Adams making others..........it signals to me that politic is happening. Not the politic of the gun, but the politic that signals, hopefully, that kids will grow up knowing vigorous debate, and not intense moments of terror. If this seed is allowed to grow, then little schoolkids won't have to be terrorized, and the senseless brutality of Omagh, won't have to be repeated. And maybe, just maybe, the ill political gerrymandering that became "Northern Ireland" can become once more "the north of Ireland" once again.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:06 AM

Damn.........got to proof before I push that button.....LOL.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: The Pooka
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 05:10 PM

Story on the (Anglican) Church or Ireland's rejection of Trimble's description of Eire as a 'pathetic little sectarian state' - Click here

Story on Gerry Adams's endorsement (sort of - Gerry's canny too) of Trimble's referendum call - Click here

Like Big Mick, I suppose I've come to love "the idea" of Ireland, maybe as a mythical abstraction. Far removed in generations & in far Americay, I dunno what it's like to live there. I do gather though, Guest sly bold Reynardine (ye fox), that it's much improved since Flann O'Brien's time. Perhaps Myles of the Little Horses not so much hated Eire as loved what she might become (??). Anyway na Gopaleen was too damn funny for me NOT to expropriate one of his characters (The Pooka Fergus MacPhellimey) fer me truncated Mudcat name an' I ain't givin' it back, Gaelic revival or no Gaelic revival.
Maybe the referendum should be all of the historic Province of Ulster. Or maybe it should be all-Ireland, 32 counties tallied together as I believe those "Bloody Sinn Feiners" and "Fenian Bastards" long advocated. Or, maybe in all justice it should be expanded to include Great Britain in her grand entirety, Gawd bless 'er. (A political junkie meself, I'd *love* to see the Scotland & Cymru vote. Fascinating crosscurrents.)

But if I've got the Agreement right (and somebody *please* correct me if I don't), I think it's to be confined to the 26 and the 6---distinctly. I.e, concurrent majorities---more than 50% approval in the Republic *and* the same *separately* in Northern Ireland---is required for unification. Them's the rules (I gather). A broader or different voting arrangement perhaps would be fairer; but I suspect would be unattainable, given the need to keep all parties signed on.

While I try to respect all points of view, personally I'm for One Ireland. (Maybe it's that old mythical "idea" noted above.) But that said, and whatever else may justly be said about the evils of Partition 80 years ago or of Plantation 300 years before that (and despite my wishful kidding at McGrath earlier) -- I can find both fairness & practicality in the proposition that present-day Northern Ireland's status should not be changed without the consent of the majority of the people living there, in those 6 counties, now. The statelet is an awkward fact (and worse); but it's a fact. It should change, but only with its own consent.

I may be wrong but I still think that time is coming. And I suspect both Trimble and Adams think so, too. They have commenced to play for partisan advantage with the scheduling. As noted by Big Mick, that's politics: a good sign.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: The Pooka
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 05:32 PM

My first clickiething above, supposedly re Church of Ireland reaction to Trimble dissing the Republic, goes to an updated story no longer featuring that aspect. But the Archbishop's comment is still in there somewhere, along with other interesting commentaries. David, ye poor man, ye've committed the oul' foot-in-mouth. Again. So whatever ye say say nothin', when ye talk about You Know What.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Den
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 06:00 PM

So David Trimble says that the Republic is a "pathetic, sectarian state",....heellllloooo what planet has been on for the last 40 years. David, black, pan, ass and pot see if you can construct a suitable proverb. Den

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:29 PM

The only people who never get consulted on any of this are the people living in the other island.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: The Pooka
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:29 PM

But McGrath, surely Tony Blair speaks faithfully for all of them? ;)

(Pooka ducks & runs for a bunker in the Republic of South Armagh, there to be Put Permanently & Verifiably Beyond Use....)

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Paddy Plastique
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 04:18 AM

Bald Eagle, that's what it says in my Na gCopaleen translation of the good book..

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Grab
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 07:52 AM

Too right, McGrath. But that's an awkward situation, isn't it? If the Unionists say "we're British", does the rest of Britain have the right to say "no you're not"? Put it in another group (eg. "If black people say...") and see how it sounds. The fact that most ppl over here hate the guts of the bigoted bastards running the Orange Order is beside the point - the point is self-determination, the right to choose your own national identity.

One trouble is that 6 counties is a pretty coarse measure - better might be to split them up into smaller sections for the purposes of a referendum. But there's also the problem that the two communities are often living side-by-side, so one street in a city is Catholic and the next street is Protestant - in these cases it'd be like mixing up salt and sugar and then trying to separate the grains. I guess in those kind of cases, they'll just have to accept the majority verdict - either that or move to another area.

As a cynical view to avoid gerrymandering in the split, assign 3 counties to the Republicans and 3 counties to the Unionists for division into smaller sections. By the time each has done their devious thing, they'll be about even. ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: little john cameron
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 09:42 AM

Ah wisnae botherin aboot this threed as tae tell ye the truth the hale thing has me baffled.Bein fae Scotland,no Ulster Pookah,the only sectarian squabbles ah saw were atween Rangers an' Celtic.That wis bad enough bit this bunch are beyond the beyond,as Frank McCourt says.
Aw this bletherin aboot it is aw jist so much hot air.In order tae see it in its true perspective ye hae tae live there.As in Glesca if ye diiae take sides ye get the twa o them efter ye.
So,in a nut shell,they hae tae sort it oot theresels withoot me haverin oan.Like ah said afore,they should come tae Newfoundland and see how baith factions get oan.Dinnae kid yersel,it's no aboot Religion as such,it's Politics an' Power.
That's for me,beam me up Scotty. ljc

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 10:21 AM

Big Mick, your hope that the "brutality of Omagh won't have to be repeated" could imply that Omagh was necessary first time round. But maybe you didn't mean it that way.

As I think most of us here realise, "Ulster" has become (erroneous) shorthand for the six counties. Much as this usage annoys me, it is no basis for including three counties of the Republic in the referendum as McG proposed (with tongue firmly in his cheek I think). But the 26 counties (a sovereign state) get a direct say, and on that basis there's a case for a parallel UK-wide vote too. However that's rendered pointless by the Belfast (Good Friday) agreement's acceptance that NI will stay in the UK until its own electorate says otherwise.

Paddy: for "Dev's gobbledegook" you might have said "Archbishop McQuaid's goobledegook." More fool Dev for letting a cleric tell him what to put in the constitution, as diclosed in John Cooney's recent biography: "John Charles McQuaid, Ruler of Catholic Ireland." (see here.)

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: The Pooka
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 11:31 AM

Thanks for your wise and well-said views, ljc; and forgive me for 'pressing you into it. (I had assumed you were an Ulsterman because of your fine Ulster Scots culture threads.) Politics & Power it is, to be sure. Religion is the Symbol only, I think. The "cover".

Grab, you know what the further subdividing sounds like, for all the world? The failed attempts to map out a Palestinian State, street-by-street & block-by-block in the West Bank. Oy. Bad Precedent. Especially now. Brrrr!

For any statistics freaks out there, here's a bigfat study of the political demography of Norn Iron. (Me, "Well exschuse me fer livin' but I never read it.") Click here

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 11:36 AM

Fionn.........you know full well what I meant about Omagh as you and I have been in these conversations in the past. You should have also noted the tongue in cheek nature of my concurring with McGrath. We agree far more on this stuff than not. The "won't have to be repeated" was exactly what I meant. Omagh didn't have to occur because it was the right thing to do, but I guess what I am implying is that it is doomed to happen again if the process is allowed to descend into the same senseless crap that is going on in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. The Irish in the North have had enough of that, I hope. To me, with over a quarter century of political activism, the signs of political conflict, as opposed to armed conflict, are a welcome sign. It means that there is a battle for hearts and minds, as opposed to a war of attrition. People of goodwill and honestly good intent will begin to speak out and the end result will be good for the kids and all the people living there. Justice must come, if folks insist on it. Rough road? Yes. Worth the passage? Ask the folks of the north of Ireland. I think they have spoken.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 12:02 PM

Sorry Big Mick, it was just that I had thought "won't have to be repeated" sounded a little bit threatening *G* For the rest (and that too, now you've enlarged on it) I'm with you 110 per cent.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 12:09 PM

I am actually glad you brought it up, my friend. As I read back through it, it clearly could be interpreted the way you describe. Glad we cleared it up.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 03:07 PM

They never gave the option of being part of the United Kingdom to any other part of the old British Empire, did they? Some of them might have liked it, but it wasn't on offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 03:08 PM

It wouldn't be a question of saying "are these people British" -it would be saying "do you want this piece of territory to be part of Britain" - or rather, part of the United Kingdom (obviously no part of Ireland has ever been part of Great Britain, which isn't a country anyway, it's an island.) There's no reason the inhabitants shouldn't continue to have full British nationality. And of course, no matter what, everybody in the European Union has a right to live and to vote in any part of the Union, regardless of which country's nationality they happen to have.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 03:09 PM

There are in fact two separate questions - should Northern Ireland be linked to the United Kingdom, and should it be linked to the Republic of Ireland. I suspect there are quite a lot of people in Northern Irekand who'd probably say "No" to both questions - and others who would say "Yes" to both. And in the peculiar politics of Noirthern Irelkand I suppose both of them would count as some kind of Unionmist.

Logically in any partnership the other partner should have a right to say whether they want to be linked or not.

Still, logic doesn't come into it, and I know this is all empty talk, because the Good Friday agreement limits options on all this.

Of course if they ever get rid of the monarchy, there'd be no United Kingdom by definition, so it should all be up for grabs... (The other way out would be for the House of Commons to end the ban on a Catholic being monarch, which it is quite likely to do - then Prince Charles converts, and we see how that affects enthusiasm for the Union among some elements in the Six Counties.)

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 03:12 PM

If anyone is wondering what's up, there seems to be an upper limit at present on the length of a post, and since I'd written a longish one, I decided to put it up in bits.

Mind a short length for posts might be quite a good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: The Pooka
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 11:13 PM

A SHORT LENGTH FOR POSTS? THE HORROR! THE HORROR! ;)

McG., good points as usual. Hard to argue with logically. But--is that right? It's likely that Parliament will permit a Catholic monarch & Charles convert? Seriously?? Remarkable. Is it because what's-her-name, sorry I truly forget, is a Papist? Is she, in fact? (But, I thought he wasn't supposed to marry her anyway.) How little I know. Boy that *would* stir the pot, wouldn't it? My my.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Big Tim
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 06:46 AM

The Good Friday Agreement states, at least 6 times, that reunification can only be decided by the people of NI. I think it's fair enough to ask them. So does Sinn fein.

I don't agree that it's about power, not religion. If all the people of NI were of the same religion there wouldn't be a problem. A 100% Catholic pop would choose the Republic (in fact NI would never have been created in the first place), a 100% Protestant pop would choose the UK.

Trimble however was out of order with his comments on the Republic, "sectarian, monocultural" etc. For home consumption, but over-the-top and downright insulting nonetheless.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: The Pooka
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:35 AM

I think it's symbolically *labelled* by religion, but actually about the Tribes that the denominations, well, demoninate. The tribes are distinguished by different culture, custom, history, worldview, yes language (dialect as *least*), & even race (as perceived; ethnic subcategories writ large), overall economic status---and religious doctrine & practice, surely. I'm just skeptical that the core of the conflict is zealous theological adherence to Rome vs. the Reformation, any more. (Assuming it ever was.) Tribal conflict: two peoples (though closely related ethnically), one land, bitter poisoned history. Israelis & Palestinians. (Coincidentally, also Jews & Muslims.) Too much a stretch??

It occurs to me that there may be this irony to Trimble's criticism of the Republic: what what I've seen of Sinn Fein's published views on governmental policies & practices in Eire, *Gerry Adams could well agree with at least some of Trimble's characterizations"*. Perhaps not publicly just now, but...Any thoughts on that?

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:43 AM

I think it's not just reunion with the rest of Ireland that is ruled out until there's a majority in Northern Ireland - it's any change in the relationship with the rest of the UK. Which is by no means the same thing.

Just because you don't want to marry the woman next door is no reason why your wife should have to put up with being married to you if she's had enough of you. But in this case she does.

The religious difference is the mark of the divide, rather than the cause. In Scotland the division between those who want to retain the Union with England and those who we ant to end it isn't as fierce for a lot of reasons - but it's there. You've also got a fair amount of sectarian hostility between Catholics and Protestants. But the two things don't coincide - you've got Scottish Nationalists who are Catholic and Scottish Nationalists who are Protestant, and the same for Unionists.

As for Prince Charles - if he turned Catholic I can't see there'd be many people worried, Paisley and co set aside. And maybe Mummy. (Mind if he turned Buddhist or Moslem or whatever there'd be no constitutional problem - it's only Catholics who are presently barred from the throne.)

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: The Pooka
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 01:05 AM

McG - Right on target, AGAIN. / Commentary:

"The religious difference is the mark of the divide, rather than the cause. " - That's what I was trying to say; but you put it better & so much more economically. Maybe you've got a point about Shorter Posts. Damn.

"Just because you don't want to marry the woman next door is no reason why your wife should have to put up with being married to you if she's had enough of you." Yes, and this is what worries me. But enough about me personal life.

"...you've got Scottish Nationalists who are Catholic and Scottish Nationalists who are Protestant..." The same *used* to be true of Irish Nationalists, at least in Wolfe Tone's time. (The patriot, not the recently-Decommissioned IRA Entertainment Corps of the same name.)

Speaking of names, I remembered - Camilla Parker-Bowles. (Right??)Is she Popish? Inquiring minds want to know. I'd *love* to see a Buddhist King Charles btw. In due course, of course. Far out.

"...Paisley and co set aside." Second the motion.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Big Tim
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 12:00 PM

Is there a lawyer among you who could interpret these two key passages from the Act of Settlement (1700) Chapter 2, which is still on the statute book;

"All and every person and persons that then were or afterwards be reconciled to or shall hold Communion with the See or Church of Rome or should professe the Popish religion or marry a papist should be excluded and are by that Act made forever incapable to inherit, possess or enjoy the Crown and Government of this Realm and Ireland"

"And that the said Crown and Government shall from time to time descend to and be enjoyed by such Person or Persons being Protestant..."

I read this as the first excluding only Catholics and the second excluding all non-Protestants. So Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc are all ruled out as well.

I believe that Iain Duncan Smith, the Tory leader, is a Catholic. Can anyone confirm this? If so can he become PM, if elected?

Incidentally the Catholic Church withdrew its support for the (Catholic) Stuart dynasty in 1766. Some might think it a nice thought to exclude Dr Paisley from the process but what about the, off the top of my head, 180,000 people who voted for in the last European election to defeat Sinn fein's Mitchel McLaughlin?

Finally, shouldn't this thread be titled "Trimble Seeks Irish Continued-Partition Vote"?

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: GUEST,Partner
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 12:52 PM

At present NI is in some sort of partnership with the rest of the UK. Albeit a strange one. If a partnership is to be disolved surely all partners should have a say.

The rest of the UK has to pay the cost of the results of the bigotry of the two sides involved in this partnership in the continual attrocities committed by both sides either in NI or, London, Manchester, Edinburgh, etc. and the general lawlessness in NI.

I've read so many of the posts to this thread I can't recall who said that the unionists would win a vote taken over the whole of the UK and NI. But I doubt that Trimle would win. We would all prefer things like better schools, hospitals services in general and less dead, injured and scared schoolchildren growing up to believe that life should be like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 02:25 PM

Big Tim has hit it right on as does McGrath, and why anyone should refer back to "Miles (Flann O'Brien) na gCopaleen" beats me. He is long gone and the Ireland that he constantly swiped at in his writings with him. Mr Trimble is, of course, playing to his own gallery in the 6 counties and has been heard to say many , many things in his attempts to consolidate his tenuous hold on the Unionist Party leadership. Can't we recognise a rather ham-fisted politician when we hear one ??

beach

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 03:48 PM

Yes, the leader of the Tory Party is a Catholic. So is the leader of the Liberal Democrat Party. And Tony Blair goes to Mass on Sundays and his children are being brought up as Catholics.

I think they've sorted it out now so that there's no impediment to a Catholic being Prime Minister. The job didn't exist after all at the time the Act of Settlement was brought in, and in any case as I read it is just about the monarch himself or herself.

As for Big Tim's query, I suppose this is lawyer's stuff - but it looks to me as if the gist of it is that only a Protestant can actually inherit the throne - and that if they then turn round and become a Catholic they are automatically deposed, and everyone is expected to withdraw their allegiance. On the other hand, if the new monarch then decides to adopt some other religion, so long as they don't want to be a Catholic, there is no constitutional problem.

And all this is probably illegal under Human Rights provisions. It would be fun watching the contortions if Charles were to put it to the test.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: The Pooka
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 07:33 PM

Big Tim - In case misunderstood, my previous "second the motion" to "Paisley & Co. set aside" was just me playing wisearse (which I do too often) with Mr. McGrath's well-written words---in a way that reflects my own political prejudice re N.I. I dinna like the man, but I would not want to exclude Dr. Paisley and/or his party. I'm for democracy and that's antithetical to it. Put another way, I'm for the Agreement and that would wreck it. Furthermore, Paisley's party has been gaining strength at the polls. As has Adams's. Interesting.

I titled the thread using the CNN headline on the story. I presume the referendum question would be formulated such that a Yes vote would be to *change* the Union status quo, and Trimble & Co. would urge a No vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Big Tim
Date: 15 Mar 02 - 02:58 AM

Pooka: I was just being a wee bit mischievious there, no offence.

There's no point in trying to bring the pop of the Republic and the "rest" of the UK into any referendum. Anyone can argue that this SHOULD be the case but the political reality is that IT IS NOT. The Belfast Agreement (Good Friday) (April 1998) absolutely enshrines the basic principle that only the pop of NI can decide the future of the "province". Read that Agreement! Sinn Fein have signed up to this, effectively recognising and accepting partition. These people who have fought, died, suffered and sacrificed since 1916, or if you prefer 1169, understand that political reality very well. If it is good enough for them it is good enough for me.

I know that this is a very sensitive and emotional issue and I have no wish to upset people. In an ideal world I would call for a wider referendum, which the nationalists would certainly win.

Subject: RE: BS: Trimble Seeks Irish Unification Vote
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Mar 02 - 07:20 AM

Tony Blair goes to Mass, but has been discouraged from presenting himself for the flesh-eating bit. You may remember that Cardinal Hume, shortly before his demise, got involved in some correspondence with his clerics on this fraught subject. The consensus was that poor old Tony would have to be denied if he did present himself, as he has received no proper instruction (wouldn't know how many times to chew etc). If he was properly accepted into the catholic faith, even this - alas - would not stop him carrying on as prime minister. We must look to other methods.

I agree GB is not a country McGrath. What about England? But I like that prospect of everything being up for grabs when the monarchy is ditched. Would that be Balkanisation?

Pooka will be interested to know that even senior Anglicans are now urging the link betweeen monarchy and the Anglican church to be broken. Rats and sinking ships come to mind.